Specialist Arms Forum

Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Rules Questions => Topic started by: drunkard monk on January 13, 2010, 07:51:39 PM

Title: Facing and shooting
Post by: drunkard monk on January 13, 2010, 07:51:39 PM
Hello to all,

I was reading the Warmaster Rules and this question came out: is there any rules for facing ?

- Does shooters (ex; goblin archers) have to face the opponent at wich they are shooting at?

-Can a unit turn back to shoot at ennemies behind them ?


Thanks,

Drunkard Monk
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Guthwine on January 13, 2010, 08:46:12 PM
1) Yes shooters like goblins (pistoliers,...) have 360° sight, so they can shoot all around.

Other units like bowmen/crossbowmen/squires have to face the enemy unit. So the enemy has be in that 180° field of view.

2) Yes you can turn around to shoot, if you succesfully order them to do so.
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Angor on January 13, 2010, 10:18:02 PM
Hmmm this may be a bad interpretation on my behalf but I thought that units got a free 180 turn if they want to shoot an enemy to their rear.

I dont have my book on me so I cannot say for sure... But somewhere in the shooting section (if I recall) there is a paragraph on units get to face their rear and it happens 'automatically'. I am not laying down any definates and am happy to be told otherwise. We have always played this way and It has worked pretty well for us.
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Stomm on January 13, 2010, 11:12:51 PM
Hmmm this may be a bad interpretation on my behalf but I thought that units got a free 180 turn if they want to shoot an enemy to their rear.

I dont have my book on me so I cannot say for sure... But somewhere in the shooting section (if I recall) there is a paragraph on units get to face their rear and it happens 'automatically'. I am not laying down any definates and am happy to be told otherwise. We have always played this way and It has worked pretty well for us.

That is what is in the printed rulebook, but it has been subsequently removed as it was thought to give missile troops far too much flexibility, and to an extent made 360 degree fire arcs more or less pointless...

So, you won't find the 'turn to face' rule in the current online edition...
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Angor on January 14, 2010, 02:32:12 AM
Wow I wonder how many changes I have missed. I usually just read over army list changes but I will have a sit down and check out anything else thats new.


Please ignore my previous post Drunken Munk I dont pay attention to the rules  :P
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Stomm on January 14, 2010, 07:08:48 AM
Well the x/y charge rule has effectively been replaced with a more 'standard' 45 degree flank, front and rear arcs. I've been neglecting the rules myself, so I can't (without going to read said rules) say whether this has been officially changed or not, but it certainly was a trial rule that was effectively adopted by all events at least for a very long time...


Personally I still like the x/y rule as it was something else that sets Warmaster apart from other wargames if nothing else...
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: drunkard monk on January 14, 2010, 02:55:37 PM
Thanks to everybody  :)

This brings up other questions as well

-Are the rules for Sieges and Fortrtesses, Battle Honors and Umpires and ships/boats still "usable" as they were stripped from the newest rule version ?

Drunkard Monk
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Lex on January 14, 2010, 04:41:18 PM
-Are the rules for Sieges and Fortrtesses, Battle Honors and Umpires and ships/boats still "usable" as they were stripped from the newest rule version ?

Drunkard Monk

Siege - yes, but there is stuff (articles) that fix some issues in the printed rules (and a Warmuster Issue on Siege on the way)
Battle Honors - works fine and in addition there is some material around to represent Regiments of Reknow
Umpires - I would look at the latest rendition of Mighty Empires for that
Ships/boats - could use some work, but that material you can use for starters
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Stomm on January 14, 2010, 06:32:37 PM
-Are the rules for Sieges and Fortrtesses, Battle Honors and Umpires and ships/boats still "usable" as they were stripped from the newest rule version ?

Drunkard Monk

Siege - yes, but there is stuff (articles) that fix some issues in the printed rules (and a Warmuster Issue on Siege on the way)
Battle Honors - works fine and in addition there is some material around to represent Regiments of Reknow
Umpires - I would look at the latest rendition of Mighty Empires for that
Ships/boats - could use some work, but that material you can use for starters


Of course I'd have to disagree, none of them 'work' as such. But there is nothing stopping you from using them none-the-less, just be aware that some of the rules might not quite work and none are balanced in any way, least of all the battle honours system. However, saying that, the siege stuff is obviously the one of these that has had the most work done on it to get it to work, and really extensive playtesting is what I'd say is needed to sort out the fine tuning. Of course I bet that lex will tell me that there has been extensive playtesting carried out, but of course my attention has been elsewhere these past few years....
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: wmchaos2000 on January 29, 2010, 11:40:10 PM
Well the x/y charge rule has effectively been replaced with a more 'standard' 45 degree flank, front and rear arcs. I've been neglecting the rules myself, so I can't (without going to read said rules) say whether this has been officially changed or not, but it certainly was a trial rule that was effectively adopted by all events at least for a very long time...


Personally I still like the x/y rule as it was something else that sets Warmaster apart from other wargames if nothing else...

+1.
We use the X/Y approach, but it has its obvious flaws. Aswell as the front/flank/rear version.
Some years ago we tried to mix both versions to use the best parts of them, but it sort of 'poored into the sand'. (swedish expression)
Maybe now, there is some interest in getting this 'problem' fixed. Anyone else with a similar thought?
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Guthwine on January 29, 2010, 11:59:12 PM
What exactly is the x/y approach?
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: wmchaos2000 on January 30, 2010, 12:09:01 AM
It is in the charge rules in the rulebook.
If the shortest distance between Charger and Defender gives that the front of C is seeing the flank of D, it is to charge the flank.
Otherwise it is to charge the front.
Maybe not so clearly written, but hopefully you will understand.  :)
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Guthwine on January 30, 2010, 01:54:19 AM
Ok I see, we always play it with the 45° and use the x/y in borderline situations to determine if most of the unit is within or out of the 45° angle. So its not the line of the shortest distance that matters but the angle.
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: wmchaos2000 on January 30, 2010, 11:27:52 PM
I understand.
Whatabout situations when the side you are supposed to charge is unchargeable?
Less then 1cm frontage due to terrain or units blocking, etc.
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Guthwine on January 31, 2010, 12:46:56 AM
Thats a good question. :D Didnt happen that often, but I would say in such situations it is not allowed to charge from their current position.

Allthough there might be situations where that would make not much sense. I think it would be ok to change the direction of the charge (despite the angle) as long as it is in favor of the defender. Meaning that a unit that would be attacking the enemies flank but cant due to terrain is allowed to go to the front but not the other way around.

Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Schindbua on February 01, 2010, 08:32:55 AM
I understand.
Whatabout situations when the side you are supposed to charge is unchargeable?
Less then 1cm frontage due to terrain or units blocking, etc.

Than, the charge ist not allowed;
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: wmchaos2000 on February 03, 2010, 10:46:31 PM
Only if the charger can not see another edge on another stand of the enemy. Check Rules Update, p8.
So what do you do when a charger is situated in the front arc, but in the front edge of the enemy there is already a moved in charger?
If the answer is: no charge, this is starting to look like WH.  :D
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Lex on February 04, 2010, 06:11:54 AM
Only if the charger can not see another edge on another stand of the enemy. Check Rules Update, p8.
So what do you do when a charger is situated in the front arc, but in the front edge of the enemy there is already a moved in charger?
If the answer is: no charge, this is starting to look like WH.  :D
If you are in front edge with LOS on the side, and the target unit is already pinned over FULL front edge, you can go side. If there is still any frontage of target you can get too, then you MUST go front, which means that is there is reachable frontage but not enough room to place, you can not charge. Use ordered move into support position (as this willl usualy happen to infantery untis charging.

Remember the OBLIGATION on charge to move closest stands first, centre stands on contact and extend frontage on enemy where possible.
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: wmchaos2000 on February 05, 2010, 03:55:24 PM
So you are saying:
if 3 inf stands has fully covered 3 enemy stands, which leaves a free corner on each end stand of the enemy , and you are in the front arc with your second unit, it may not charge. ?!
Altough it has both line of sight and enough Move to get to the flank.
If so, it is WH.

OR

if 3 inf stands has fully covered 3 enemy stands, which leaves a free corner on each end stand of the enemy , and you are in the front arc with your second unit, it may not charge if they can not get into correct position in the front of the enemy unit. ?!
Altough it has both line of sight and enough Move to get to the flank.
Also WH.

(forgive me for being somewhat blunt, I am just surprised if above were to be correct)
Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: Carrington on February 08, 2010, 03:24:33 PM
So you are saying:
if 3 inf stands has fully covered 3 enemy stands, which leaves a free corner on each end stand of the enemy , and you are in the front arc with your second unit, it may not charge. ?!
Altough it has both line of sight and enough Move to get to the flank.
If so, it is WH.

OR

if 3 inf stands has fully covered 3 enemy stands, which leaves a free corner on each end stand of the enemy , and you are in the front arc with your second unit, it may not charge if they can not get into correct position in the front of the enemy unit. ?!
Altough it has both line of sight and enough Move to get to the flank.
Also WH.

(forgive me for being somewhat blunt, I am just surprised if above were to be correct)


From my read of Lex, neither of your readings is quite right.

If you are in front arc, you must charge front, unless:
1) the front is _fully_ engaged by another unit -- i.e. the unit's frontage is fully covered.
and
2) you can see -- and reach the unit's flank.

In response to your first option: no... you can charge -- as you've said, the front of the enemy is fully engaged, and _you can legally move to touch the flank_.

And second option, yes, they can charge flank given your conditions: i.e. front _fully covered_.  The wrinkle is that they couldn't charge flank if
1) they could possibly engage the front: i.e. the enemy's front wasn't fully covered
or
2) they could possibly engage front but couldn't fit (because of other extraneous in the way), in which case the only way they could 'participate/influence' the combat would be to go in support.

#2 is complicated by the existence of terrain obstacles and other units.

Interestingly, #2 suggests that there are situations where infantry could charge the flank and cavalry/long-based monsters could not: e.g. a 3cm separation between the unit's flank and some obstacle/ other unit than prevented the long-based unit from 'fitting.'



 



Title: Re: Facing and shooting
Post by: wmchaos2000 on February 14, 2010, 02:16:52 AM
Thanks for your clarifications C.

The reason I started to play WM and later on began to love the rule-system, is that it lacked (thank god) all the faults that Warhammer has.
One of those is when a unit see´s an enemy, that it can reach, but it may not charge due to unlogical and (frankly) bl**dy odd written rules.
WM has none of these rulings in my oppinion. At least, it should not have.

Odd post, sorry, but that is were I stand.