Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Rules Questions => Topic started by: pw on April 27, 2010, 10:38:06 PM
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Hi All, a few of questions came up in tonight's game that I'm hoping are easy to answer for you vets.
1) Does the game end immediately when an army is reduced to half strength/the general dies? (we played that it did and then played on just in case, generating a win for me as I broke the opposing army and then a draw as my general who I'd let get involved in the combat was killed in the subsequent round of combat).
2) When a unit is driven off the table by shooting and returns the rules state that it can't move 'this turn', does this mean that it can move in its own turn (which will follow that in which it was driven off the board)?
3) The withdraw rules seem to allow retreating units to advance (so long as one stand initially moves backwards 1cm). Is this correct? It seems so by the rules and seems odd on the tabletop.
Thanks for any advice. ;D
Oh, and tonight my Chaos force finally defeated the dastardly dwarfs. Largely due to the dwarf player bringing along an army with a break point of four that included four easy to kill units (2 artillery and 2 Slayers). Or did we draw? I'll await a response to my first question before I begin the victory dance!
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Here the answers...
1)
As soon as you reach Break Point of opposing army or kill the General the game ends immedeately..
No close combat will be finished anymor.....it ends immedeately as opposing army decides to leave the battlefield....
2)
If unit is driven off the table you...
2.1. Roll immedeately 1D6 on the chart to see what happens to this unit (there are different results)
2.2. At the beginn of your own turn you can roll once more 1D6 if the previous result were that unit does not enter the table.
There are now different scenarios now.
If you started the turn it does not have much effect to you as you moved allready this unit....you only roll the dice in ther order mentioned above to see what happens to your unit for the next turn.
If you did not start the turn (meaning your opponent starts to move, shoot..etc.) and the unit got shot at and driven off the table then the result mentioned under point 2.1 is applicable for you this turn.
At the beginning of your turn you roll again 1D6 to see if the unit will enter the battlefield again.
At least we play it this way..... ::)
3) It´s not clear what you mean here.....
I guess you are talking about a volunterely "fall back" or about "fall back" in general when you won close combat round. Right ?
You can move in any direction as long as you keep 1 cm distance to an enemy unit. The direction you move does not matter. You also can stay ground and say that you will not move but this you have to do before rolling the 3D6.
Regards
Claus
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2)
If unit is driven off the table you...
2.1. Roll immedeately 1D6 on the chart to see what happens to this unit (there are different results)
2.2. At the beginn of your own turn you can roll once more 1D6 if the previous result were that unit does not enter the table.
Note that some of the results are worded differently and there is significant impact to:
- reappearing where you left the table and
- reappearing one the same board-edge.....
Concerning 3) the terminology used tend to confuse people, it needs to be fixed.
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Thanks for this.
Am I right in thinking that if my opponent drives my unit off the table in his/her shooting phase that the unit can return to the table in that turn (essentially immediately after being driven back) and then be ready to move in my turn?
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Yes, you are right - if you roll the dices right... ;)
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Notice the phrasing:
3-4 placed at the table edge where it left.
5-6 reappears at the table edge it left from
MOVE OFF THE TABLE
Sometimes units or characters are obliged to move off the table. This can happen when a unit receives a
‘blundered’ order but can also happen to units that are defeated in combat or troops driven back by
missile fire or magic.
If one or more stands in a unit leaves the table edge, whether wholly or partially and for whatever reason,
roll a D6 and then consult the Left the Battle table below to see what happens. Deduct -1 from the roll
for each of the unit’s stands that has already been removed as a casualty.
D6 Result
0 or less The unit/character leaves the battlefield and does not return. The unit/character is considered to have been destroyed.
1-2 The unit/character leaves the battlefield and may or may not reappear. At the start of its side’s next turn, before initiative moves are made, roll again on this chart.
3-4 The unit/character is placed at the table edge where it left. The unit/character cannot move further that turn.
5-6 The unit/character reappears at the table edge it left from. If it is reappearing at the beginning of a turn, it may move as normal.
Characters who move off the table with units they have joined suffer the same fate as the unit.
Characters who are on their own must roll in the unlikely event that they leave the table.
If a General leaves the table and does not return immediately then the battle is over and the army
withdraws. He abandons his army and heads for the hills and is considered to be a casualty. See the End of
the Battle section.
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@Lex: I can see that the two are different but which of the two do you interpret as meaning you can appear anywhere on the table edge, I'm assuming the second, 'reappears' seems to support the movement implied in such a reading?
Do you think the intent here is to allow units to 'pop up' across the table edge (which could be very beneficial) or that this is simply poorly worded?
Is there any guidance (or tradition) on how the unit must be placed? I.e. can you select a formation that has one stand at the table edge and the others in front, or must all stands be against the table edge?
One other thing that interests me is how this might be played if the unit was forced to retreat off the table from a combat and the unit forcing the retreat was placed at the table edge where the unit would return making it impossible for them to come on. Has this ever come up?
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@PW
3-4 The unit/character is placed at the table edge where it left
The indication...." where it left " ... is the magic part.
5-6 The unit/character reappeares at the table edge it left from.
This one is the one allowing you to chose any place at the specific table edge....allthough I never played it that way ::)
As for the placement of the units stand....I would say that each stand must touch the table edge.
One other thing that interests me is how this might be played if the unit was forced to retreat off the table from a combat and the unit forcing the retreat was placed at the table edge where the unit would return making it impossible for them to come on. Has this ever come up?
YES... I had this case once. There are actually 3 ways to handle this....
1) The nasty one...(if the result 3-4 is gotten) ... which is not allowing to reappear immedeately as place is blocked by another unit....(but personaly I would not got this way)....and you have to try later on again.
2) The very very nasty one........(if the result 3-4 is gotten) ... not allowing the unit to reappear at all !!!
3) To put the unit to the nearest frees space where it left the table edge.....this one I would chose.
But to be honest....this case very very rarely happen.... as you would need to push em of the table edge in close combat and afterwards to block the place with your fallback....leaving you in most cases as a target for counter charges.
Best regards
Claus
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@Claus: I think I'd play all of these things in the way you suggest (while seeing that the 'Rules as written' would allow for different interpretations). As I only play one other person at the moment I think it'll be easy enough for us to come to a consensus on this rule (and of course once we've done that no unit will ever be pushed off the table again! ::))
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Hi, a few of questions came up last night. Apologies if the answers are really obvious/in the books, we couldn't find them.
1) Can a unit be supported when it is attacked in the flank? The diagrams only show units fighting to their front edge but the wording doesn't say not.
2) Is it correct that a '3-wide' infantry unit charging a '3-deep' infantry unit in the flank will often have less attacks than the charged unit? It seems odd but with the nearest to nearest charge moved first it seems correct.
3) If a unit is partially on a hill how do you decide if it's defended or not? On a stand by stand basis? We decided that if the majority of the unit was off the hill then the unit wasn't defended.
4) When a unit makes way for a friendly unit retreating from combat does it also make way for pursuing enemy or does it move the minimum distance to allow the friend through leaving it in position to get in the way of pursuers?
Thanks for any advice :)
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1) Can a unit be supported when it is attacked in the flank? The diagrams only show units fighting to their front edge but the wording doesn't say not.
If units are only attacked in the flank then there is no support, if they are charged from the front and the flank then yes the stands of the backrow that are not touched in the flank can support the unit in front. Important is to count support by each stand, not the unit as a whole.
2) Is it correct that a '3-wide' infantry unit charging a '3-deep' infantry unit in the flank will often have less attacks than the charged unit? It seems odd but with the nearest to nearest charge moved first it seems correct.
Its true that you cant come into contact with all 3 defenders but the attacker would get 8 Attacks +1 Support and the defender would hit back with 6 Attacks. (If both have 3 attacks base)
3) If a unit is partially on a hill how do you decide if it's defended or not? On a stand by stand basis? We decided that if the majority of the unit was off the hill then the unit wasn't defended.
Your sollution is the easier way to handle it which I would prefer. But I think that situation is handled by the stand. But if one stand is the open than this stand can only take 3 hits, meaning you cant lay all your attacks on the open stand to avoid the defended status of the other 2. (note sure here but that would make the most sense I guess. :) )
4) When a unit makes way for a friendly unit retreating from combat does it also make way for pursuing enemy or does it move the minimum distance to allow the friend through leaving it in position to get in the way of pursuers?
The unit making way, moves the minimum distance and gets in the way of the pursuier.
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3) If a unit is partially on a hill how do you decide if it's defended or not? On a stand by stand basis? We decided that if the majority of the unit was off the hill then the unit wasn't defended.
Your sollution is the easier way to handle it which I would prefer. But I think that situation is handled by the stand. But if one stand is the open than this stand can only take 3 hits, meaning you cant lay all your attacks on the open stand to avoid the defended status of the other 2. (note sure here but that would make the most sense I guess. :) )
One way of playing this out correctly is to have the attacker assing all his attacks before rolling any dice and to ignore any overkill on the sub-status-stand.
eg. my infantry charge your guys, which have one stand counting as in the open. Lining up centre on centre 2ofmy stands could attack the "open" stand. I announce so, commiting the 3th stand to fight the" defended" part of the unit. Roll dice seperatly: I get (3+1)*2 dice on the stand in the open, needing 4+ to hit, 8 attacks average 4 hits, assuming the defenders have no armour that would means 4 wounds on the defenders, however, seeing that stand only has 3 wounds it will only attribute 3 wounds to the CR (Combat Resolution).
The rest of my attackers roll 3 dice needing a 5+.
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2) Is it correct that a '3-wide' infantry unit charging a '3-deep' infantry unit in the flank will often have less attacks than the charged unit? It seems odd but with the nearest to nearest charge moved first it seems correct.
Its true that you cant come into contact with all 3 defenders but the attacker would get 8 Attacks +1 Support and the defender would hit back with 6 Attacks. (If both have 3 attacks base)
corner to corner contacts do not count?
and how did the defender get +3 for support if each stand has 3 attacks?
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Let a picture talk. :) The green unit charges the red unit from the flank. If the green units stand no.1 is the closest at the start of the charge then the situation looks like this:
(http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/3219/sit.jpg)
Green attacks with two stands 2x4 +1 Support
Red attacks with 2 attacks each because of the -1 for flank
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Guthwine, that's exactly the situation I was trying to describe. We played it as you suggest. The unit being charged was a unit of trollslayers so the situation was exaggerated in that they had more attacks than the charging unit. As it happened the survival of the unit of trollslayers is what won me the game so despite being surprised that flanking a unit wasn't very useful losing the combat turned out to be a great result!
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ok, i get it
i interpreted the engagement as 3 stands abreast length wise attacking a unit one stand wide (also length wise) with two stands deep (behind it) which would have made it 3x4 vs 3+1
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I'd like to continue this thread as I'd like to find out how people are playing infantry on infantry flank charges.
Picture two typical units of infantry. 3 attacks per stand. The stands are lined up one behind the other (both units are in column).
If one charges the other square in the flank, the attacker get four attacks - their base of 3 plus one for charging in the open (I just read about supporting attacks in the thread, I'll have to look that up, I wasn't aware of that). The unit receiving the charge gets 3 stands, each with 2 attacks (normally 3, but each reduced by 1 due to enemy in flank penalty) for a total of six attacks. The 'receivers' are getting more attacks than the charger by this calculation. It seems wrong that units being hit in the flank are better off than the charger. What am I missing?
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Extending your unit to have 3 stands fighting !
The issue is seldom that you get to attack in column unless you activly aspire to do so. You WANT (sometimes) to attack a line in colum with adjacent units to maximize followup. Against a side however you want to maximize your units attacks
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I'd like to continue this thread as I'd like to find out how people are playing infantry on infantry flank charges.
Picture two typical units of infantry. 3 attacks per stand. The stands are lined up one behind the other (both units are in column).
If one charges the other square in the flank, the attacker get four attacks - their base of 3 plus one for charging in the open (I just read about supporting attacks in the thread, I'll have to look that up, I wasn't aware of that). The unit receiving the charge gets 3 stands, each with 2 attacks (normally 3, but each reduced by 1 due to enemy in flank penalty) for a total of six attacks. The 'receivers' are getting more attacks than the charger by this calculation. It seems wrong that units being hit in the flank are better off than the charger. What am I missing?
Do flanked units get support for combat resolution? I seem to recall they don't. Not an insignificant factor.
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remember that STANDS get support in resolution, not units !
A stand that is ONLY fighting to its side or rearwill NOT get support !
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Lex,
Thanks for the reply. I was also puzzled by this post..
(snip)
Green attacks with two stands 2x4 +1 Support
Red attacks with 2 attacks each because of the -1 for flank
Supporting stands don't give extra attacks that you roll for. They just add to 'combat resolution' to use a term from that other game system.
If I come in with a column of three stands, I get three attacks, plus one for charging in the open. If I hit with two of them that then dont' get saved, I get result of two plus one for a supporting unengaged stand. If I don't receive any hits in return, I push the enemy back 3cm.
I'm pretty confident this is right. I didn't find any rules about supporting *attacks*.
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If you charge in the open with infantry then each stand will have basic attacks +1, so generic (3) infantry will dish out 12 attacks
And indeed support is counted in the combat resolution!
In essence.... each supporting stand counts as one succesfull, unsaved attack........
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...but only for combat resolution! (...just in case..)
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OK, I am confused about support. Where do the rules state that stands attacked on the flank (or rear, I assume) get no support? I remember looking this up, and I didn't find that in the LRB.
Next question: If a stand that is flanked does not get support, why would a stand that is flanked and attacked from the front get support?
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8) because Rick said so ....... :P
This actualy is only the frontrow stand(s) and because of the complexities of flank + front attacks seldomly happens
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Support is calculated after stands have been removed as casualties, correct?
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Yep. In fantasy games, you remove the casualities and then count supports.
In WMA first count the supports and finally remove the casualities.
Both systems have great meanings, and changes a lot the results. I love both of them. But if you had read both rulestes is very common to puzzle your mind when you try to remember how to do it.
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Where does it say that a flanked stand gets no support?
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OTTOMH i´d say in the errata......
and the restriction is ONLY fighting to flank and/or read.
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/summon rules lawyer
Note that a stand touched by enemy to its front and sides or rear during the combat round can be supported, but a stand touched by enemy only to its sides or rear cannot.
p.52 of the living rule book
/rules lawyer off
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Chris, thanks. I found it, but on page 44.