Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Rules Questions => Topic started by: flybywire-E2C on August 22, 2010, 03:07:52 AM
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Please review the attached draft rules for the Eldar Haven, transport, refits and crew skills. We would like to hear any thoughts about these before we try to get them cleaned up and pushed past GW. Any thoughts, comments, complaints, etc. would be greatly appreciated.
- Nate
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Have Class: DE or Eldar = neat.
What does 3+ vice 2+ means? That it got a 3+ save instead of 2+ holo safe? And a double column shift right? So better protected vs batteries and less vs lances?
Webway Portal: nice.
Nice thing, although still easy to destroy because of the Eldar rules. It is still a defence. And defences like all space stations are just badly made in BFG. And 1 wb can still harm the thing. 1 lance got a pretty good chance as well.
Rest is ok with me as far as I see.
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Have Class: DE or Eldar = neat.
What does 3+ vice 2+ means? That it got a 3+ save instead of 2+ holo safe? And a double column shift right? So better protected vs batteries and less vs lances?
Webway Portal: nice.
Nice thing, although still easy to destroy because of the Eldar rules. It is still a defence. And defences like all space stations are just badly made in BFG. And 1 wb can still harm the thing. 1 lance got a pretty good chance as well.
Rest is ok with me as far as I see.
Good catches all! The biggest problem we ran into was NOT making the thing simply ridiculous but somehow keeping in mind that the thing is still a defense. Hence, it follows all Pirate Base rules: its greatest asset is that it can be hidden and must be found in order to be attacked.
The problem Eldar have is that they suck as defenses. FW’s solution to this was to simply have it count as a space station right out of p.145 of the rulebook, in other words, shields instead of holofields, regular weapons instead of Eldar ones. Boo, Yuck! The alternative was to create repulsor fields, but to keep it from getting ridiculous, we made a trade: better against weapon batteries but slightly worse against everything else.
The gem of this model is the webway. If you finally find this thing and try to attack it, you are going to have to fight your way through a whole mess of Eldar to do it, a thorny prospect in and of itself.
Smile, game on and enjoy!
- Nate
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The refits in regards to the Dark Eldar.
Engine refits:
1. Celestial Dragon Engine- What happens if they roll this?
5. Moon Gossamer Rigging- DE gain a 45* turn mid-way through their movement on top of the standard turn they recieve? (essentially going on CTNH for DE?)
6. Stream Flow Enhancers- Good for them dudes that use the sun for movement....
Ship refits:
2. Bonesinger- DE only suffer crits on 6+ so this is a downgrade...
Everything else makes sense or can be easily changed to compensate for differences between Dark Eldar and their brethren.
-Zhukov
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Hi Nate,
DE can use the normal refit table without issue. I say leave it at that! :)
Cheers,
RayB HA
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NO BOO!!
Issues with the normal refits table and the DE are listed here:
Engine Refits:
3. Manoeveuring Thrusters- DE have no minimum movement
4. Arrestor Engines- DE cannot go on CTNH or Burn Retros
Ship Refits:
2. Additional Shield Generator- DE use Shadowfields
6. Overload Shield Compacators- This doesn't make any sense with Shadowfields
Weapon Refits:
1. Extra Turrets- ARE YOU SUGGESTING DE HAVE TURRETS???? LOL
2. Turbo-weapons- DE don't have guns that shoot farther than 30cm
3. Targeting Matrix- Closing AND a left column shift? WAY too powerful...
4. Auto-loaders- You do realize that if the ship is Ld 10, the enemy is on Special Orders and this DE vessel has no blast markers in contact with this upgrade it's an automatic pass for the DE ship to Reload Ordnance? Since it is universally agreed that Eldar Torpedoes are the best in the game, is this wise?
6. Motion-Tracking Targeters- DE can't use AAF, CTNH, or Burn Retros
As you can see their are MANY more problems to using the standard refit table. You only need to add about a sentence more to the draft of the Eldar refits to compensate for the 4 refits that need DE special attention, and I don't believe that should be hard to de.
-Zhukov
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Get'em Zhukov. ;)
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The refits in regards to the Dark Eldar.
Engine refits:
1. Celestial Dragon Engine- What happens if they roll this?
5. Moon Gossamer Rigging- DE gain a 45* turn mid-way through their movement on top of the standard turn they recieve? (essentially going on CTNH for DE?)
6. Stream Flow Enhancers- Good for them dudes that use the sun for movement....
Ship refits:
2. Bonesinger- DE only suffer crits on 6+ so this is a downgrade...
Everything else makes sense or can be easily changed to compensate for differences between Dark Eldar and their brethren.
-Zhukov
I agree that the standard refits don't smoothly integrate into the Dark Eldar fleet so here are the quick fixes I recommend:
Engine refits:
1. Celestial Dragon Engine: Not for Dark Eldar - roll again.
5. Moon Gossamer Rigging: DE gain a 45* turn mid-way through their movement on top of the standard turn they recieve? DE already CTNH for free, so not for DE - roll again.
6. Stream Flow Enhancers: DE get +5cm speed.
Ship refits:
2. Bonesinger: Not for DE - roll again.
- Nate
-Zhukov
[/quote]
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NO BOO!!
Issues with the normal refits table and the DE are listed here:
Engine Refits:
3. Manoeveuring Thrusters- DE have no minimum movement
4. Arrestor Engines- DE cannot go on CTNH or Burn Retros
Ship Refits:
2. Additional Shield Generator- DE use Shadowfields
6. Overload Shield Compacators- This doesn't make any sense with Shadowfields
Weapon Refits:
1. Extra Turrets- ARE YOU SUGGESTING DE HAVE TURRETS???? LOL
2. Turbo-weapons- DE don't have guns that shoot farther than 30cm
3. Targeting Matrix- Closing AND a left column shift? WAY too powerful...
4. Auto-loaders- You do realize that if the ship is Ld 10, the enemy is on Special Orders and this DE vessel has no blast markers in contact with this upgrade it's an automatic pass for the DE ship to Reload Ordnance? Since it is universally agreed that Eldar Torpedoes are the best in the game, is this wise?
6. Motion-Tracking Targeters- DE can't use AAF, CTNH, or Burn Retros
As you can see their are MANY more problems to using the standard refit table. You only need to add about a sentence more to the draft of the Eldar refits to compensate for the 4 refits that need DE special attention, and I don't believe that should be hard to de.
-Zhukov
Actually, I found a few problems with what I lised previously so I made some additional changes to the draft Eldar refits and posted them here. Note that this makes them a bit different from what is listed in the BFG 2002 Annual:
D6 Engine Refit
1 Celestial Dragon Engine. The standard maneuvering thrusters have been augmented, allowing breathtaking turns. The vessel may choose to turn up to 90º at the end of its movement instead of turning normally at the beginning of its movement. Not for Dark Eldar – roll again.
2 Polarization Field. A low-level energy bubble surrounds the ship, channeling the debris of space around the vessel. The ship does not suffer a hit for moving through blast markers.
3 Drunken Weave. An intricate system of particle flow rudders and graviton impellers are fitted to the vessel, allowing for drastic evasive maneuvers. The ship gains a 6+ save on a D6 against any damage it takes without requiring a Command Check. This does not count as being braced, but the ship may not use this save when on Brace For Impact Special Orders or attempt to go on Brace For Impact special orders against any round of shooting or event of taking damage if this save fails.
4 Phoenix Sails. Hyper-efficient materials of exceeding purity are used to replace the mainsails, squeezing extra energy from the solar wind, adding +5cm to all speed bands. Dark Eldar vessels add an additional +1D6cm speed when on All Ahead Full special orders.
5 Moon Gossamer Rigging. A Bonesinger has spent many hours re-splicing the ship’s control mechanisms. Instead of turning to any facing at the start of its movement, it may choose to make a single 45º turn at any point along its movement. Not for Dark Eldar – roll again.
6 Stream Flow Enhancers. A dramatic re-rig of the ship’s sails and control surfaces give the captain much greater control over his or her vessel. When the ship is facing the sun, it counts as having the sunward edge in its rear. If the sun is in the rear arc, it counts as on its side. Dark Eldar vessels add +5cm to their speed.
D6 Ship Refit
1 Crystal Web. A sizable colony of crystal spiders have been introduced to the hull, greatly enhancing the ship’s chances of survival. If the ship has no critical damage, roll a number of D6 equal to the number of hits it has remaining, recovering 1HP if any rolls of 6 are made. No more than 1HP can be regained in this manner per turn, regardless of how many rolls of 6 are made.
2 Bonesinger. A much-respected Bonesinger has joined the ranks of the crew. The ship only suffers critical damage on a 5+ instead of a 4+. Not for Dark Eldar – roll again.
3 Mask of the Laughing God. Special psychic dampers and cross-spectrum jammers hide the intentions of the crew. Enemy vessels do not gain +1 Leadership for this vessel going under Special Orders.
4 Gestalt Spirit Stone. The ship is incredibly ancient, even by Eldar standards, and its spirit has literally eons of experience. The vessel ignores all penalties to leadership tests, such as blast markers, Marks of Chaos, etc.
5 Netherfield. A refined holofield design coupled with an absorptive masking layer make this ship nearly impossible to target. It counts as an escort for all weapons that use the gunnery table.
6 Structural Purity. The cores of the ship’s wraithbone supports are partially replaced by a fluidic medium that dissipates damage throughout the hull. Before the battle begins, the vessel gains +1HP to its starting damage capacity.
D6 Ship Refit
1 Talons. Both the outer hull and the ship’s airlocks are lined with psychically charged scatter-shard point defenses. Enemy ships attempting to board the vessel or perform a hit-and run attack suffer a -2 modifier.
2 Distortion Charges. The vessel has been fitted with a weapon system which ejects a Warp Distortion charge into its wake (useable once per game). This D-charge must be placed at the same time the player places the rest of the fleet’s ordnance on the table, in the ship’s aft firing arc. When launched, it moves 10cm toward the nearest enemy vessel every ordnance phase. If it comes in contact with an enemy ship’s base, the enemy vessel may attempt to shoot it down with turrets, hitting on a roll of 6. If the D-charge is not destroyed, place a warp rift marker at the point of impact using a Nova Cannon template. Any vessel touching the template suffers the effects of coming in contact with a warp rift! At the beginning of each subsequent Eldar turn roll a D6. On a roll of 6 the rift closes and is removed form play.
3 Rune-Assisted Targeting Nodes. The fire control systems are linked by a complex sensor array. Ships fitted with lance-type weapons may re-roll their first miss each turn.
4 Gravitic Accelerators. An extra boost is provided to torpedoes and attack craft. When first launched, ordnance receives an extra +10cm to its movement.
5 Anomaly Clarification Stones. The ship’s scanners are able to compensate for local spatial distortions. Blast markers do not cause a column shift when the ship’s weapon batteries fire through them.
6 Enhanced Crystal Focusing. Rare ultra-pure crystals and a delicate realignment of the firing mechanisms raise the power transfer ratio of the ship’s weapons, significantly increasing their range. Add +10cm range to the ship’s weapon batteries and lance-type weapons.
Did I metion this is still a draft?
- Nate
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As explained on .53 of Armada, Dark Eldar cannot Burn Retros and can Come To New Heading for free. Otherwise, their ability to go on other special orders is unchanged from the basic rules, as opposed to the Eldar special rules. This includes All Ahead Full special orders, which the DE can use but the other Eldar races cannot.
- Nate
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The Tau Commerce Protection Fleet had some misspellings and other minor errors corrected concerning the Emissary and the Demiurg cutting beam. This and the Eldar Domains FINAL files are stored in the same place here:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bw_dULEfC3rbYzUyNjQzZTAtMDZiMS00ZjRlLWJjNzMtYTE5YmNjZjdjODQ1&hl=en
Nate
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Zhukov,
Man oh man you could not be more right! Too many things on my brain like wanting DE to be more normal than Eldar! ;D
Cheers,
RayB HA
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Zhukov,
Man oh man you could not be more right! Too many things on my brain like wanting DE to be more normal than Eldar! ;D
Cheers,
RayB HA
Zhukov,
Ray, Bob and I see eye to eye on the DE in a lot of ways, and this fleet can be made really right with just a few tweaks. I am re-posting this in the Dark Eldar thread so we can keep this thought train where it belongs. In the meantime, we may pull the Eldar Domains project back into hock and graft in any changes we make to the Dark Eldar concerning the Impaler, etc.
- Nate
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Hi all! The following two items were added to the Battlefleet Gothic Repository:
1. Eldar Domains and Refits (20101122).pdf
All I did here is correct some formatting and spelling errors, and I made a minor tweak to the wording of the Repulsor Field rules. It’s actually a major tweak in that it’s not called that anymore, but in game-rule terms the adjustment is actually very small. All I did was take two pre-existing Eldar refits and incorporate it into the Haven to replace the Repulsor Field so that it uses pre-existing mechanics instead of something completely new and totally unique to just this model. The critical chart also reflects this change.
2. Inquisition DRAFT v1.0.pdf
This is a completely new file, yet something else to incorporate the last missing component to an Imperial force in BFG. There’s two new ships: the Inquisition Blackship and an Inquisitorial cruiser. I expect there will be some surprises here, and this is intentional. I am really surprised how often Blackships are misrepresented from what they actually represent in the WH40k storyline, but this is clarified in this document, the Grey Knights are fleshed out a bit and a LOT of background has been added concerning the Inquisition as a whole.
Files in the repository can be seen and downloaded from here:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
Smile, game on and enjoy!
- Nate
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Eldar Hellebore = 65 points
Eldar Aconite = 55 points
Before anyone tells me some smack about the Smotherman formula, I already know. Is a Hellebore a Nigtshade/Hemlock pair melded into a single hull? Yes. However, it is ONE hull vice two, meaning it is always torn between reloading or locking on. Besides, at 75 points a pop, NOBODY uses these things, which means they are overpriced, regardless of how powerful they are. Aconite to a lesser extent has the same problem.
Incidentally, the Hellebore and Aconite are still the #1 and #2 most expensive escorts in the game, even with the price change.
- Nate
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Eldar Hellebore = 65 points
Eldar Aconite = 55 points
Before anyone tells me some smack about the Smotherman formula, I already know. Is a Hellebore a Nigtshade/Hemlock pair melded into a single hull? Yes. However, it is ONE hull vice two, meaning it is always torn between reloading or locking on. Besides, at 75 points a pop, NOBODY uses these things, which means they are overpriced, regardless of how powerful they are. Aconite to a lesser extent has the same problem.
Incidentally, the Hellebore and Aconite are still the #1 and #2 most expensive escorts in the game, even with the price change.
- Nate
Funny that you would expect flak over this. I've known this ships were way overpriced for a long time.
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One very small thing; in the story on pg 3, the eldar calls humans "children of Earth"... in the 40k universe, that should be "children of Terra" right?
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Aconite @ 55pts = really interesting. I loved them already.
Hellebore @ 65 = better but I would rather see them in a different role:
1 pulsar, 2batteries, 1 fighter launch bay.
Thus no torps. Fighter protection.
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Hi all! The following two items were added to the Battlefleet Gothic Repository:
1. Eldar Domains and Refits (20101122).pdf
All I did here is correct some formatting and spelling errors, and I made a minor tweak to the wording of the Repulsor Field rules. It’s actually a major tweak in that it’s not called that anymore, but in game-rule terms the adjustment is actually very small. All I did was take two pre-existing Eldar refits and incorporate it into the Haven to replace the Repulsor Field so that it uses pre-existing mechanics instead of something completely new and totally unique to just this model. The critical chart also reflects this change.
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with having special rules for a special unit that is only used in special scenarios. The rules for the repulsion field also looked ok for me. Sort of a balancing tradeoff.
The changes are not minor tweaks but a serious upgrade. The Haven is tougher now than it was before.
Previously 3+ holofield save now back to 2+.
Previously targeted as a defence with 2 right-column shifts, now treated as an escort - Uhm ... what is its orientation? Always closing? Even that would make it effectively 3 right-column shifts as it still gets an extra shift from its holofield.
2010/10/10 looked much better to me.
Eldar Hellebore = 65 points
Eldar Aconite = 55 points
Before anyone tells me some smack about the Smotherman formula, I already know. Is a Hellebore a Nigtshade/Hemlock pair melded into a single hull? Yes. However, it is ONE hull vice two, meaning it is always torn between reloading or locking on. Besides, at 75 points a pop, NOBODY uses these things, which means they are overpriced, regardless of how powerful they are. Aconite to a lesser extent has the same problem.
Incidentally, the Hellebore and Aconite are still the #1 and #2 most expensive escorts in the game, even with the price change.
- Nate
You are going in the wrong direction.
It is not the Hellebore that is too expensive it is the Hemlock/Nightshade that are too cheap. If there is an eldar escort that is priced correctly it is the Aconite.
If you start changing the points cost of eldar escorts set the Hemlock/Nightshade at 50 points each before considering anything else.
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Heh, as a starter the complete set of rules for Eldar should be dropped and be replaced by MMS.
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One very small thing; in the story on pg 3, the eldar calls humans "children of Earth"... in the 40k universe, that should be "children of Terra" right?
No, it's called Earth in 40k.
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One very small thing; in the story on pg 3, the eldar calls humans "children of Earth"... in the 40k universe, that should be "children of Terra" right?
The Imperium calls it Terra. Eldar still use the ancient name, with disdain I might add.
- Nate
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Hi all! The following two items were added to the Battlefleet Gothic Repository:
1. Eldar Domains and Refits (20101122).pdf
All I did here is correct some formatting and spelling errors, and I made a minor tweak to the wording of the Repulsor Field rules. It’s actually a major tweak in that it’s not called that anymore, but in game-rule terms the adjustment is actually very small. All I did was take two pre-existing Eldar refits and incorporate it into the Haven to replace the Repulsor Field so that it uses pre-existing mechanics instead of something completely new and totally unique to just this model. The critical chart also reflects this change.
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with having special rules for a special unit that is only used in special scenarios. The rules for the repulsion field also looked ok for me. Sort of a balancing tradeoff.
The changes are not minor tweaks but a serious upgrade. The Haven is tougher now than it was before.
Previously 3+ holofield save now back to 2+.
Previously targeted as a defence with 2 right-column shifts, now treated as an escort - Uhm ... what is its orientation? Always closing? Even that would make it effectively 3 right-column shifts as it still gets an extra shift from its holofield.
2010/10/10 looked much better to me.
The Eldar by design are a fluid, nimble and highly mobile fleet. What we found out by playtesting this some more is that pinning them down to defend a static defense goes REALLY bad for these guys. Dark Eldar don't come off so badly, but the Corsair fleet (which by design would be most dependent on pirate bases) do really poorly. The long-term fix I guess would be to re-do the core Eldar rule-set or scrap the Haven entirely, but we are NOT doing the former at this time, and I would very much like to not do the latter.
As a pirate base, the Haven's greatest defense is its ability to stay hidden. To this end, it makes perfect sense that the Eldar will impart whatever technology they have at their disposal to effect this end. Even at multiple shifts, it is still shifting from a defense so at best you are shooting at this as a capital ship abeam. The Haven isn't a big model with lots of HP's. once it gets pinned, it's not going to last very long.
Eldar Hellebore = 65 points
Eldar Aconite = 55 points
Before anyone tells me some smack about the Smotherman formula, I already know. Is a Hellebore a Nigtshade/Hemlock pair melded into a single hull? Yes. However, it is ONE hull vice two, meaning it is always torn between reloading or locking on. Besides, at 75 points a pop, NOBODY uses these things, which means they are overpriced, regardless of how powerful they are. Aconite to a lesser extent has the same problem.
Incidentally, the Hellebore and Aconite are still the #1 and #2 most expensive escorts in the game, even with the price change.
- Nate
You are going in the wrong direction.
It is not the Hellebore that is too expensive it is the Hemlock/Nightshade that are too cheap. If there is an eldar escort that is priced correctly it is the Aconite.
If you start changing the points cost of eldar escorts set the Hemlock/Nightshade at 50 points each before considering anything else.
It may be priced properly by the Smotherman formula, but more comes into play than simplly using a calculator to determine point values. By our mandate, it is a LOT easier to re-price ships than it is to alter profiles. 65 points may technically be a good price for the Aconite, but considering how much the Eldar light cruisers cost, there's no point in even buying one unless the prices come down.
I don't know what kind of problems you are seeing that you believe the Nightshade and Hemlock prices need to go up, but the Corsair escorts are daggers with tissue-paper handles. Cost reflects both hitting power and survivability, and Corsair escorts against proper tactics are actually not that hard to make brace or die. At 40 points they are each the price of a Firestorm, the best escort in the Imperial fleet for the points. Their prices don't need to come down below 40, but I haven't seen very much feedback at all suggesting they need to go up either.
- Nate
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It may be priced properly by the Smotherman formula, but more comes into play than simplly using a calculator to determine point values. By our mandate, it is a LOT easier to re-price ships than it is to alter profiles. 65 points may technically be a good price for the Aconite, but considering how much the Eldar light cruisers cost, there's no point in even buying one unless the prices come down.
Oh my.. The Solaris is poo, Big Poo. Everyone knows that. What makes the Aconite interesting is that is the ship that brings weapon batteries into the fleet. The Aurora is Pulsar/Torps so something different.
I don't know what kind of problems you are seeing that you believe the Nightshade and Hemlock prices need to go up, but the Corsair escorts are daggers with tissue-paper handles. Cost reflects both hitting power and survivability, and Corsair escorts against proper tactics are actually not that hard to make brace or die. At 40 points they are each the price of a Firestorm, the best escort in the Imperial fleet for the points. Their prices don't need to come down below 40, but I haven't seen very much feedback at all suggesting they need to go up either.
Took drugs lately Nate? ;)
The Firestorm is the worst IN escort. (look at the BFG discussion area).
The Nightshade IS THE BEST VESSEL IN BFG.
The Hemlock is not far behind.
Both should cost between 50-60points!!!!!!!!!!111
1 Eldar PL = 4 Eldar WB
Thus Hemlock = faster Aconite minus -1 Eldar WB (the special rule doesn't matter).
(Talking official rules in this post).
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Agreement. The Firestorm is the only IN Escort up for a price adjustment in the Flawed Ships thread. We're also considering a 2nd turret for the Falchion, but it doesn't need that as much as the Firestorm needs a price break.
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I don't see the current Nightshade/Hemlock being worth 50+ pts. If there's a significant amount of terrain then yes, I can see this. Would make games against Eldar with terrain a lot tighter. Our group has traditionally used all the rules regarding scenario/battleground selection, including attack rating, so we've had a significant amount of terrain.
If however, you can shoot at them, then these ships are worth more in the region of 25-30 pts. Reports I've heard are that people often get to shoot at Eldar. I don't see it myself, so an increase to 45 pts wouldn't be out of the question, though I think 50+ goes a bit far.
The Aconite has 1 EWBe more firepower than the Nightshade and Hemlock. Even if you conclude this is worth a whole 10 pts and conclude that the Nightshade and Hemlock can come up to 45 pts then this lemon still should not cost 65 pts. Coming down to 55 pts is a reasonable compromise. There is some reason to believe this is rounding up anyway, given the speed decrease and the reduced survivability (9 Aconites at 55 pts = 11 NS/Hem at 45 pts).
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Ever faced Volandum's all Nightshade fleet. :P
They should at least be 50pts.
Despite in which amount they are taken. These critters excell always.
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Hi everyone!! Relevant to this thread, the Eldar Refits rules were updated. This is a FINAL product that was changed slightly to clarify how Netherfields work on the Haven. No other changes.
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q*
- Nate
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Never will understand the concept of anything but shields on a stationary object :)