Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Rules Questions => Topic started by: horizon on October 09, 2010, 02:28:23 PM
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Right to the core:
Adepticon has been won twice by this fleet:
1500pts
3x Explorer, 2x Hero, 9x Orca, 3x Defender, Kor & Aun.
Now, design me a fleet that can take on this fleet. That fleet must also be able do deal with Eldar (Corsair & Craftworld) and other races.
Above Tau fleet is allround. It gives many out there a run for its money. Can you make a fleet that is able to withstand? Non-tailored.
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Right to the core:
Adepticon has been won twice by this fleet:
1500pts
3x Explorer, 2x Hero, 9x Orca, 3x Defender, Kor & Aun.
Now, design me a fleet that can take on this fleet. That fleet must also be able do deal with Eldar (Corsair & Craftworld) and other races.
Above Tau fleet is allround. It gives many out there a run for its money. Can you make a fleet that is able to withstand? Non-tailored.
I could easily design a fleet list that would be just as competitive against all comers, including this one. This:
1500 pts
3x Explorer, 3x Hero, 6x Orca, 1x Defender, Kor'el & Aun'el
See, piece of piss. ;)
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lol, At least you see the point of it.... now for other races :)
Void Stalker
+ Nightshades.
Done.
(Volandum tm)
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Necron, eldar and space marine would all be competitive against either tau fleet posted
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Necron, eldar and space marine would all be competitive against either tau fleet posted
Eh, I think the 17-18 lances of the Tau fleets might be enough to give Necron/SM pause. No doubt there would not be a stitch of usable terrain on the board, since we're talking tournament fleets here, so the Eldar would probably get raped too.
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Necron, perhaps, if they leave out Shrouds and escorts (small ones) and use tremendous speed to go past the Tau, but still.... hard time.
Eldar, well, Adepticon features terrain (planets I know for certain) but bombers do not care for terrain.
Marines I see down soon. Strike Cruisers will just be eaten by the Orca's. Do see that the Hero's bring 2x4 lances and the Orca's 9. Relentless bombing runs (with fighter support if needed) will hunt the Marine escorts. And a Barge will dread the same lances and bombing runs, 6+ armour is good, but with 3 turrets, bombers will get their hits.
The Imperial Navy could try a Nova Cannon spam. But that means leaving out factors like the Emperor (which is tournament ideal ship) and Gothic.
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Bombers even resilient ones don't do much against armor 6 (and or turrets 2+) or holofield
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.... 28 bombers will do. Against Eldar:
Bombers as individual markers. Each bombers when in contact with base rolls a d6 unmodified by turrets. Those attacks have a 50% chance of doing a hit. Those hits have a 16% chance of killing ship (holo 2+). The other 83% generate a blastmarker. The Eldar can be killed by that blastmarker at 16% chance again.
Armour 6 is not much vs that amount of bombers and as said, they bring enough lances around as well.
And against Eldar the Orca's carry batteries to harass.
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this tau list can easily do big damages in the fisrt run of bombers&torpedo waves....after that are you sure to be able to pass every "reload ordnance"???hero&orca need also "lock on"...many orders to do with base discipline and only 2 reroll(useful also for brace for impact)...one failed order in the first ships and you are in troubles...using reroll is necessary but if you need them after forBFI???(at least imperials carriers fleets have the cobra with +2D,chaos carriers fleets can use CSM for +1Din carriers...)I think tau in Bfg cannot be too strong...
for your question Tyranids are very strong....speaking about fleet engagment:
kraken with 6wb are not frightned so much by mantas or torpedoes(6+armor,4+ save) and cruisers & hiveships with 4 spores (and if you do the wrong choice to permit it to the adversary also 6 spores) are not so much worried about them.....they have also many ordanance too(not like you,but not few...)and if they start first.....they can come very close to you (now +4d6 inAAF)...in your turn you can damage them and obtain victory points...then in their second turn they catch you.....and you not will escape ;D(lucky with dices is not considered ;D ;D ;D)
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Yes, Nids is an interesting choice. A point of note is the fact that it is a bit unclear what will happen to evolution of the hivemind outside a campaign section: allowed or not. But is that Nid fleet able against all foes?
If the Tau squadron the 3 Explorers only 1 Special Order is indeed for all 3 to reload.
But, yes, the main weakness in that Tau fleet is string of bad Special Order dice when it comes to Reloading.
The Hero and the Orca's could benefit from Lock On but do not need it to be succesfull.
(ps isn't my fleet but I liked the Imperial Navy thread at warseer discussing this Tau fleet I wanted to broaden the scope).
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But you also got to factor in explorers have 1 shield and moves 15cm
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For tyranids in our group we allow evolution of the hivemind for Background reasons(we like variety)but tyr player avoids monstruosity like 14p and 6 spores hiveships for balancing reasons...nice compromise i think.. ;D
that fleet has2 hiveships with 14hp ,4 spores and D9 (one carrier,one allWB),1 cruiser with 4 spores,many kraken(6wb), 12 escort drones,vanguard drones, fighters... I dont remember all numbers....what do you think?
if you make a 3 carriers squadron you do a single R.O...sure...but after?in the adversary turn if he shoots to one explorer you let him damage and maybe break or destroy it or you go to B.F.I??going to B.F.I doesn't force you to not reload with all3 ships in your next turn?have we applied a wrong rule for 3 years?? :o :o
you are forced to lethim destroy one ship of the squadrons or you are forced to renounce to your waves next turn....we never use carriers squadron for this reason,are we wrong?
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Yes. Slow movement is beneficial to this Tau fleet. 1 shield ain't good at all, you first have to reach them though.
Chaos will have a cut here: nice ordnance availabilit, 60cm weapons, good at boarding.
Then why is Chaos always cutting low at tournaments? Odd isn't it.
Tanith as said, Tau move slow, it'll take some before you can make them BFI (unless nova cannon spam and then the Tau won't squadron).
You apply the bfi rule correct.
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Yes chaos very flexible so I am not sure why they don't do better in tourneys
Jack of all traits master of none?
I don't think 15cm move is and advantage because with blast markers they have to choose between turning and reloading ordnance
Orcas, as good as they are die quickly to assault boats with the current rules
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Tau do not need to be afraid of enemy assault boats:
a) not all races have them
b) Tau have so much ordnance the enemy will think twice about not using fighters
Tau explorers choose good heading at starts that afterwards turning is of less worry. Like an Emperor BB.
Chaos is master of long range gunnery, assault boats and above average speedy ships.
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So, more expensive explorer, nerf the hero, and buff the light cruiser. That about fix things?
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i hope you have forgotten smileys....
what do you think:coud be introduced possibles upgrades(to be paied) to Explorers and Hero to rapresent newer versions and new tecnologies?
the only ship that needs changes i think is merchant....(and kroot warsphere maybe)
my 2 cents
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Give merchant option to take 3-4 hooks and maybe +1 shield
Kroot sphere has upgrade options now just need down grade options
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where are the new rules for kroot?i have not seen them in the 2010 pdf....
for merchant can I suggest also some upgrade for their speed?to rapresent newer versions....15cm speed for a third expansion sphere age light cruiser is ...bad
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In the proposed changes to the forgeworld tau pdf
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So far no one has made an allround fleet list which could take on mentioned Tau fleet.
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I think the fleet you mentioned is strong but not unbeatable.
It is a bit luck dependent as well with many bombers and many leadership rolls. I still think a Chaos fleet with several 3 turret ships for example has good chances (i dont know why they suck in tournaments, maybe chaos players play too chaotic :-D ) they could stay at a distance using their lances while beeing able to defend themselves with high turret values and some fighters (even close ranged batteries could take on incoming ordnance if the tau doesnt close in.
Orcas shouldnt be too hard to destroy with AC (even taus fighters cant be everywhere). The fleet also has the problem that it has to stick together. The two heroes alone cant take enough fire.
After all its theory and each game is a bit different.
I had a lot of games with tau sometimes they own and sometimes your bombers just dont do anything. Especially vs a high turret chaos fleet i had problems, vs orcs i almost always won (low turrets...).
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So far no one has made an allround fleet list which could take on mentioned Tau fleet.
aren't you a proponent of an untailored take on all comer list? ;)
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Yes I am, therefor I want to see an allround fleet. :)
It must be able to thwart that Tau fleet but also all other threats.
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Against that fleet? Well you could always use an Ad Mech Fleet and hope for a lot of fleet defence turrets?
-Zhukov
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I'd take it on using my Chaos fleet list. Will lose out on the ordnance war but my Chaos can get in the first strike usually.
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^Actually admiral I think losing out on the ordnance war means he will get the first strike. And with as many attack craft as he will have.... it will hurt.
With an Ad Mech fleet, you get the +1 turrets on every capital ship. So it forces the Tau player to use fighters for a turret-suppression mode. If the Ad Mech player uses his carriers to launch fighters only, he can either knock down tau torps or the escorting fighters. And the Ad Mech can have good range on their ships so it could be a decent fleet to field.
I'm thinking the core could look like this?
Oberon
Dictator
2x Gothics
-Zhukov
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I have 60 cm lances. his ordnance won't get to me as he first has to get through my ordnance. Anything left has to get through my turrets. And I have 7 ships which are generally faster than his. I'm sure I will get the first strike in most of the times.
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IIRC the tau list that horizon is referencing has something like 25 launch bays. Those bays launch resilient bombers. Are you positive you'll have such an easy time dropping them before they get to you?
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28 Launch Bays actually. Look at the first post. It's a doozy. The tactic I imagine will be to hide on one end of the table and force you to come to him. All while ordnance is being fired at ya.
-Zhukov
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Correct. Move 10cm max. Let opponent come. Hero's leading the fleet. Escorts depending on opponent. But I tell you a well played attack from 9 Orca's when the lines close are serious. Plus you'll need to spend dice on them if you want to get rid of them. And in return it are only 25pts escorts to gain for vps. Thus not much.
And where others would have difficulties against assault boats that is a problem such a Tau fleet won't really have to deal with unless it is a Nid fleet.
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hmm, just off the top of my head
lets see for 1500 pts
IN: 3 dictators, 3 lunars with NC, 50 pts admiral, firestorms and falchions
CN: 2 devastations, 2 carnages, 3 slaughters, 100 pts admiral, and repulsive
SM: 2 battlebarges, 50 pts admiral, 3 strike cruisers, and novas
Necron: 1 tomb ship, 3 scythes
(the IN and CN are my standard fleet)
not saying these fleet will always beat 3 explorers & 2 heroes
but the game should be fun and the fleets competitive
tactics:
1. close to the explorers and take them out with direct fire.
2. use ordnance to take out orcas first, then heroes. i wouldn't bother with CAPs, or fighters but always launch bombers and see if the tau player would divert from launching mantas to launch fighters instead
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Well, it would be an interesting match nonetheless. ;D
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1) The IN has 12 bombers. Tau could resort to using 12 fighters and still have another 12 bombers. But I would use less fighters, perhaps some. But Tau also has gunnery to target waves if needed.
2) A little less AC, the fleet should race into the Tau but watch it that the Slaughters do no get to far ahead of the rest.
3) Marines, 12 resilient AC again. Two hard to kill Barges. Marines should keep fleet together. And yes, they could get near Tau. Tau will use Orca's slightly different due all the T-Hawks. So the Tau would see some more fighters as protection. Timing for both fleets to be essential, if the Marines go wrong they will have many lances upon them and vica versa it may be to late for lances when boarding starts.
4) Necrons, albeit little unfluffy, Necrons are always hard but they have no ordnance.
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Why Lunars over Dominators for cheaper NC? Also, I had no idea falchions were considered competant escorts.
Ironically, the marine fleet looks the most competant to me. They have the armor and the thunderhawks to hold off the bombers until they close.
And when they do, it will be quite nasty.
Wonder how nids will do.
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Lunars for non-Gothic lists. Dominators are as of this writing only available in the Gothic list and while you can use it, one won't have easy access to ships like the Vengeance and Exorcist and Falchions which are not available in the Gothic list.
The Armageddon fleet list might also be a good list for taking on the Tau. Mixing 6+ armored ships with some long range support ships like the Armageddon might go aways in taking on the winning Tau list.
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Hmm. My play group freely mixes ships and homemade designs. Is this flawed?
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Going by the rules, it is flawed as you can only take the ships available in the list normally. But if your group agrees then no problem.
There might be problems which crop up though.
For example, if you decide you wanted to use the Armageddon fleet list and then decide it's ok to mix and match ships, then you can come up with a list like:
Fleet Admiral 50
Emperor+Shark upgrade 370
Armageddon+Power Ram x2 500
Dominator x2 380
Firestorm x 5 200
1500 points.
Flexible enough esp if I decide to take a third Dominator in place of the Firestorms or include a Long Range Tyrant. I could also swap Vengeances in place of the Armageddons and add a re-roll. So mixing lists might be a bit of a problem.
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Hmm, ok. Ill mention sticking with the fleets, next chance I get.
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Why would you need to out ordnance tau to beat them?
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That's agreed. No need to beat but enough to stem.
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Hero loses strenght on its side weapons.
Explorer goes to 260.
Fixed?
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Another fleet that could be competititive with this Tau list is the Tyranids. In 1500 pts you can spend 150 pts on additional ordnance pieces. So you can have 21 fighter markers already deployed as a part of the fleet! So that knocks out a bunch of bombers and the Hive Ships could be Carrier heavy, say 3 of them maxed out with bays and have only drones armed with Pyro's for escorts, and now you have a decent fleet that can take on many many others too! Thoughts?
-Zhukov
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The Exploerer has its weaknesses and the Hero needs other capital ships to be set up so cant be taken in masses. So far i had very different games with tau an i think overall they are one of the more balanced fleets.
And of corse there will always be some problems with fleet lists in tournaments, thats the case for all systems i know. For most games with your friends the explorer and hero works out like they are now.
The Merchant is the ship that should be changed, if it gets playable and players have fun with it you automaticly will see less explorers and heros...
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I agree with Caine Hoa...personally i don't see nerf need to tau .....but if you want to see different lists and more variety because they can only play basing on a strong support phase supremacy and it may be boring, give them alternatives making merchant more efficient....now it is weak in defense,poor attack,little manoeuvrability,slow and easy points to the adversary...not gratis maybe...
my 2 cents
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So far I've seen not much of a fleet list. And Caine's and Tanith's replies say enough to me.
I changed the thread title: which fleet would you bring to a tournament?
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Name the fleet you want Horizon. You may even see me there ;)
I can build you a good all around fleet that can beat that one with just about any fleet but nids (since they are now the only fleet i don't own aside from admech, who don't count)
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Chaos
Space Marines
Imperial Navy
AdMech :P
Orks
Corsair Eldar
Craftworld Eldar
Dark Eldar
lol
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I would probably bring my "Fleet of the Overlord" list, which i have posted in other threads.
Also my "Fleet of the Dominion" which is as follows
Apoc. LD 8 commander
Mars
Dictator
2 range upgraded tyrants
1 gothic
My favorite chaos fleet is always
Despoiler w ld 8 lord
4 slaughters
2 Acherons
my Orky fleet is mostly a joke but still can be fun if you can tolerate all the bleeping rolls
2 Hammer battlekrooza's w/ warbosses and looted torps
4 Terror ships
6 Brute ram ships
My space marines are pretty damn potent against tau, with all the thunderhawks and anti-ordnance bombardment cannons
Barge w master of the fleet
6 Nova's
5 Strike cruisers
My craftworld fleet will be a great choice, though i may be accused of being a jerk for playing eldar..
Hero ship, w Hero
Dragonship w/ batteries and launch bays
3 wraithships w pulsar lances and torps
6 shadowhunters
We differ greatly on our corsair list philosophy. so i won't post mine ;)
Dark eldar is always risky business..
3 torture cruisers w launch bays and dread archon
12 corsairs, 6 with impalers, 6 with dark lances
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Hi Zelnik,
quickened
just going daftness here in my own humbled opinions:
Orks, the core is 4 Terror Kroozers. Like the Deathshane tactica.
Craftworld Eldar, yeah. If I was defending a Craftworld I would keep the Shadowhunters, when away I would drop them for another Wraithship. Plus some assault boats and farseer distributed among the ships.
A lolling tactic: squadron a Wraithship with the Flame to make an ablative armour.
Dark Eldar, scenario dependant ofcourse. Don't know on all the Impalers. But heck it.
Space Marines, if you want lances: why no Firestorm RSV to save some points, or at least present cheaper targets? I dunno, I killed so many Space Marines I have no idea on how to fear them. ;)
Chaos, looks to me the hardest part is to keep the fleet somewhat together and guide the Slaughters to the enemy.
IN...dunno. Two Nova may harass some Tau. Or an Apocalypse on Lock On.
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Because the Nova's are 10 cm faster then firestorms and their lances fire FLR, that's why!
Impalers? six impalers=LOTS OF FULL CRITS!
I take shadowhunters because they have proven themselves to me time and time again, without fail. They are a great escort for intercepting ordnance so my two carriers can focus on launching bombers. When the 2010 faq comes out, trust me, there will be a-boats :D
The chaos fleet works MUCH better then you think, with the four slaughters moving in quickly, supported by the long range acherons and the battleship.. trust me it works. only ever lost with it once :D ALso, the battleship has torps.
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Its always tough for me to lose out on 7 lances on the front. But I agree that torps are really awesome choice.
Have you ever tried space marine crews for cant-fail torpedos and assault boats? Ive only tried it on a desolator so far, but on a despoiler its bye bye battleship, might not even need wounding it. In theory anyway.
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CSM's are just too expensive for my tastes, I barely ever even use marks.. I prefer to use chaos's superior shooty and speed to it's fullest instead of boarding. with that fleet, i only need the assurance of the ld8 Chaos Lord on the carrier, the rest can have poor LD and still be effective.
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On an ordnance kitted Despoiler though...+3 leadership is really nice, not to mention 16 surefire hit and run attacks hitting 2-7 on the crit chart. Hmm, you can't go beyond LD10 with bonuses, right?
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Zelnik, well Firestorms move more inline with the rest of the fleet.
I agree on torps for the Despoiler.
I still think your Slaughters can be seperated by a canny opponent.
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Well, yes. A Canny opponent can do LOTS of things. When two canny people meet, it's when the really interesting games emerge. It's better to play the game then it is to say "your tactic sucks"
Prove to me my tactics such Horizon! come to the midwest and battle me!
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I didn't say such ;)
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On an ordnance kitted Despoiler though...+3 leadership is really nice, not to mention 16 surefire hit and run attacks hitting 2-7 on the crit chart. Hmm, you can't go beyond LD10 with bonuses, right?
What do you mean 16 surefire H&R attacks? Assuming 0 hits from turrets against the a-boats the boarding torps still have to hit before making their H&R attacks. Against a 6+ prow this isn't terribly impressive. Against side armour it's still only 2 or 3 H&R attacks.
Or have they changed this rule recently?
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Nuttin changed.
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Assuming 5+ armor, you are looking at a low average of 8 HnR criticals against a 5 turret battleship.
Meaning you can take a massive points investment out of the game in one low-damage salvo, potentially.
Pretty cool alternative.
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Hi LS,
could you explain how you play it...
Since boarding torps:
come in base contact
turrets fire
remaining boarding torps roll vs armour
torps which passed armour make a new dice roll on the critical hit chart.
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Assuming 5+ armor, you are looking at a low average of 8 HnR criticals against a 5 turret battleship.
Meaning you can take a massive points investment out of the game in one low-damage salvo, potentially.
Pretty cool alternative.
You mean 8 H&R attacks total from the 8 a-boats and str 8 boarding torpedo salvo? Let's see, after turrets it's 5.5 (a-boats) + 2.67 for the torps making 8.17 H&R attacks. Yep, not too bad. Prolly get a hit out of that many too. Still, I myself would probably forgo the 2.67 H&R attacks from the torps and go for 2.67 hits instead (with the 5.5 H&R from the a-boats). Particularly as this might convince the opponent to shoot at torps instead. This would dropping the torps average hits to 1.83 but would allow all 8 a-boats to make their attacks (so you lose 0.17 H&R attacks and pick up 1.83 hits with attendant 0.31 full crits). If he shoots at a-boats instead then you lose 2.67 H&R attacks and gain 2.67 damage with attendant 0.44 full crits. I think I'd rather either of those two than the first option. Boarding torps aren't all that good. Unless you're counting on them being able to turn of course.
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What Sig said, Horizon.
Good point with the normal torps, sometimes I do find it very useful, especially on battleships, to completely take them out of the fight with the crit table, which can be quicker than damage. The boarding torp crits just compound the odds of getting everything offline. Space marines ensure no failures, Horizon.
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Am I the only person who thinks throwing around mathhammer around really ruins the point of the game? Do it because it's a fun or cool idea.. smashing the enemy is the most satisfying when your 'brilliant' idea works for the first time :D
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I think mathammer has uses, but it's very easy to take it too far and put everything under the scope of probable hits to crunch out just how much more of a fraction of a hit can be eeked out. That said, this thread IS discussing tournament fleets where such calculations tend to hold more sway.
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True. Though I would still take fluff fleets to tournaments? Why? Because it gives me better dice. I believe so and that's what is important. heh
Plus the best selection of ships is good start but you still need to use them correctly. Or innovative!
I mean, for Chaos this is a maxed fleet:
Desolator
2x Acheron
2x Carnage
2x Devestation
yet I would never take anything else then my background driven renegade fleet:
Desolator
Styx
2x Carnage
Slaughter
6x Infidel
3x Iconoclast
But, for the merrits of this thread I would like to see allround fleets which can take on a lot of other fleets. Like the Chaos fleet I mentioned. :)
Theory is fun. Gaming also, but very different.