Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Rules Questions => Topic started by: Zelnik on October 12, 2010, 09:12:48 PM
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Okay, so your buddy just got himself a corsair fleet. You play IN, and your convinced that your screwed up one end and down the other, yes? Well.. No your not! the fights are NOT going to be pretty, but you CAN win, and if your lucky, you can crush him before the fight has even begun. I will put foreword some things that may (or may not) save you.
Lets begin with an overview of the Eldar's weaknesses.
Obviously, 4+ armor. No real shock there. Also, the 4+ to crit their cruisers is painful to say the least.
Delicate cruisers.. their standard cruiser has 6 hits, their light has 4. all you need to make their ships FAR less dangerous is to bonk 'em 2 or 3 times.
No protection against explosions. If you blow up a ship near their fleet.. they don't get the benefit of holofields. If you have a ship REALLY close to theirs... maybe you shouldn't BFI for the chance of a plasma drive, or a game changing warp implosion.
Movement determined by table facing. You can use this to your advantage. I will explain later.
Escort heavy fleet..
No turrets!
Now lets talk about imperial navy strengths.
Tough ships, you have 6+ prows, and 5+ armor, and you need 6's to crit. after this game, you will probably be happy for it.
Lots of choices. Eldar get no real selection when it comes to upgrades for their fleet.
Outnumbering the enemy. Your ships are cheaper!
RANGE. All of your battlecruisers, and one of your standard cruisers have better range then the entire eldar fleet (Sans the void stalker, we will talk about that later).
Ordnance. They have two carrier craft, and they are extremely expensive. yours are cheaper, and can knock out the dreaded bomber and torpedo wings without fear. you have torpedo's galore as well.
Okay, now lets talk about the eldar strengths, and how to overcome them.
Overconfidence. eldar players can suffer this when they have fought a lot of inexperienced players. the loss of their key ship can result in the disruption of their entire battle plan.
Holofields. Ahh the dreaded "terminator" 2 up save. There are two ways for you to overcome this. 1, bring batteries to the fight (and lots of them), 2. force them to roll AS MANY TIMES AS POSSIBLE! remember, every time they roll for holofields, blast markers are generated, making the terrain extremely dangerous for them. Also, they only have to fail 3 times to cripple a cruiser. Also: Holofields do NOT save against exploding ships! If you down one of his cruisers, and any other eldar ship is nearby (even one escort) BLOW IT SKY HIGH! force brace for impacts or even destroy another ship or two! If you have a ship surrounded by eldar attackers about to get it's face pushed in, LET IT! if it explodes, you could END THE GAME right there! A lot of eldar rush in for that extra few dice from being within 15cm, make them pay for it.
Ordnance. Everyone fears the bombers and torpedos.. and they should! here are the ways to overcome it! CAP! yes, combat air patrol on your ships. even if it's just one fighter on the base, it renders at least one torpedo strike useless, and allows you to plan ahead for the incoming bombers. If he has to waste fighters or shooting to knock out your CAP, all the better.
Movement. Eldar movement is entirely dependent on the sun. Yes, they get two moves, but this means that you can predict where they go! If you form a wall of cruisers and herd them into a corner, the only direction they CAN move is through the line, giving you a chance to pound the tar out of them. Push them to one side of the table, use your defenses to your advantage, and they will have NOWHERE to go.
Okay, now lets talk about the imperial navy's weaknesses, and overcoming them.
Speed. Yes, IN is slow. very slow. depressingly slow. Not as slow as orks, but slow. How do you overcome this? all ahead full! if you have a squadron of ships, and JUST the right opportunity, an AAF can land your ships right in the middle of the enemy fleet, or with a prime firing arc on a vital enemy ship. Even at half strength, a pair of lunars will give you six batteries and two lances, plus ALL of your torpedos. all you need to do is hit once or twice to give them a really hard time, or even force a brace for impact.
Ordnance. your fighters are not resilient, your bombers are not skilled... but THEY don't have turrets! make them waste ordnance or firepower dealing with unending waves of bombers! If you take the mars, take it's upgrade to it's batteries... It makes it an extremely deadly foe against the eldar! IF your bombers hit, there is NO surpression, and you hit on a 4+. Yes, they get holofields, but the more you force them to roll, the more likely they will roll a 1... and just imagine all those marvelous blast markers.
Range. A lot of your ships only have 30cm range. This means getting dangerously close to the enemy. I don't support stacking of fleets, but I would never build a fleet that didn't have SOMETHING with better range then 30. I have used two overlords to great effect, and the emperor, oberon and retaliator are great for pounding eldar junk. How do you keep them alive? form a perimeter around them with your cruisers. If the eldar attack the cruisers, they suffer from the fire of the battleships (or overlords), if they go for the battleship, they suddenly have a fleet of cruisers ready to pound face.
Lets go over some ships that i suggest you incorporate into your standard fleet, so you don't stack for it :D
The Sword. Eldar bane at it's finest. Maneuverable and fast, with a st 4 battery and 2 turrets. Eldar players either kill these quickly, or suffer the consequences. "But Zelnik!" you say, "Eldar can move up to 60cm in a turn!". Yes, but usually it's not in a direction or at a distance that is advantageous to them. IF you find yourself JUST out of range (you can premeasure you know!) ALL AHEAD FULL! sure you will get a st 12 battery instead of 24, but thats MORE then enough to crush a cruiser into a bloody tin can. When it comes to fighting other enemies, it is EXTREMELY efficient, batteries hurt everyone and it's two turrets make capable of surviving ordnance onslaughts.
The Dominator. "But Zelnik!" you say "Its got a useless nova cannon and 30cm!". Yes, i would say, but that battery is strength 12. Get two together, and an AAF broadside is still st 12. Also, ask any eldar player. Lucky nova cannon hits have ended games before they have begun (it's so delightfully rare for them to brace for impact on an incoming nova cannon after all..) Also, it forms blast markers!
The Tyrant. "But Zelnik!" you say, "It's expensive to upgrade and has a weaker battery strength!". Yes, i would say, but it is incredibly useful against ANY opponent because of the range and torpedo/nova cannon option. No one would doubt the power of a pair of these together with a st 20 battery broadside and 12 torepdos.
The Overlord. "But Zelnik!" you cry, "It's a useless pile of junk! and the eldar player will say i am stacking!" NO, i would say, it's an alternative to the gigantic battleships, has more firepower and more maneuverability. You sacrifice extreme firepower for extreme range. Against eldar is useful, against everyone else, it's still useful because you can hit them with batteries and lances at a range where THEY CAN'T HIT BACK. Overlords should never get into the thick of the battle, they should sit back and rank up their kills from behind. Piece of advice, never take them outside of a squadroned pair. And if the eldar complains about stacking, tell him to adjust his tactics and quit complaining.
The Mars. "But Zelnik!" you cry, "it's expensive and has a nova cannon!" Yes, i would say, but it can upgrade it's batteries to negate the holofield column shift. It has bombers, and i made my nova cannon statement quite clear.
The Armageddon. "But Zelnik!" you whine "it has lances!" yes, i would say, and i would agree it's not the BEST anti-eldar ship, but it still has 45cm batteries, and you get those lance shots without any strength reduction.. blast markers are key!
the Dictator: it's your basic carrier, no bitching from you.
The other escorts: The firestorm is not nearly as useful as the sword in this case, but it still has the st 2 battery, and lances can still score lucky hits. Cobra's have a lovely 30cm speed, and LOTS of torpedo's, so use them at your leisure. The odd man out is the Falchion, a strange mix of cobra and sword, consider it an alternative to the sword or cobra, it does it's job well.
Dauntless Light Cruisers: Don't give me gruff about these little beauties. I would recommend the torpedo versions. Those happy little 5d6 AAF will put you in a lovely attack position.
Endeavor light cruiser: Another Eldar Bane ship. Not as fast as the dauntless, but manuverable and equipped with a powerful battery. Use them to the greatest advantage you can!
Now the terrain. This is the eldar's most annoying strength. Mostly, asteroid fields. If there is so much as a single asteroid field on the table, the game just got a LOT harder.
Asteroids. this is the real pain. They can sit there inside the field, and move through it with extreme ease, and frequently hop between the two. Mostly what your hoping for is them to fail their LD, and get pulverized by rocks. There really are two viable options when it comes to an asteroid camper.
1. Dive in and flush them out! Send EVERYTHING into the feild and take the fight to them, and force them out of the field. this is going to be PAINFUL, but know that no side is not going to come out without a bloody nose.
2. Avoid it like the plague and send bombers to do the dirty work. This also works, it forces them to keep wasting ordnance on your bombers and so long as you stay outside of range, they won't get a good shot on you without leaving the field for more then a turn. It's slow and annoys the crap out of both players.
Planets. These are your best friend. Suddenly you have maneuverability greater then the eldar so long as you stay near it. Three turns (if planned well) can put you in a prime shooting spot. That handy free turns also applies to lock on and AAF. Planets don't aid eldar very much, sure they get free turns but at most that lets them get to 'abeam' facing.
Gas Clouds. Eldar HATE this. It's a giant blast marker. sure they can try to roll their LD, but it hurts their shooting, and can cause damage. also, you still get to shoot through it.
Warp Rifts. If you have a good LD, you can literally navigate it right into the middle of their fleet. OR you can get lost in the warp... the choice is yours...
Other tips.
If you have a shot, take it. Force the enemy to roll dice, they can't pass every roll.
If you lose, learn from your mistakes, adjust your tactics.
The imperial navy forms a powerful shield wall, force the enemy into a corner.
NEVER attempt to board, even if holofields get knocked down, just shoot the damn thing.
NEVER attempt to ram, unless it comes up through random chance, don't hold it as a viable tactic (example, you do an AAF to get a shooting resolution on the enemy, and it just so happens that you connect with another vessel, it's OK to try the ram, and it forces a holofield save).
IF an enemy's holofields go down, do everything you can to KILL the ship! Surround it with fighters to prevent a disengage!
Send torpedo's into tight eldar groups.
Group bombers in large numbers against cruisers.
The Void Stalker (dun dun dun!): so your friend puts a void stalker on the table.. What do you do? it' has 45 cm range and can fire to the sides. It's basically a super ship in your eyes.. and you would be right. It's one of the top 5 most powerful battleships in the game. (ranking number 4 by my personal ranking system). What do you do?
First things first, he just put a HUGE points sink on the table. The ship is (at minimum) 480 points with an eldar prince, if re-rolls are present, it's worth even more. For a standard 1500 tournament game, it's 1/3rd of his fleet. What do you do? you pound it's face in! focus on the void stalker with EVERYTHING YOU HAVE! IF you destroy it, just disengage, you won the game! if you make it disengage, you just hamstrung his fleet. Push it's face in!
Hellbores (DUN DUN DUN!!!) These things.... hurt. They are literally designed to destroy one cruiser and cripple another in a single round if used correctly. However, these are also huge point sinks.. If you see six on the table, focus on them, kill them with as much vigor as you can!!
Aconites (Dun DUN!) Ow. Ow ow ow. st 5 battery. Ow. 6 of them. OW. Kill them with a passion. use torpedo's to break up their formation and force blast marker rolls.
Special orders, and how to use them to your advantage.
First things first, you have the benefit of the Navigation special orders. AAF and CTNH are extremely useful. Eldar don't get them. If they decide to not move, they count as defenses.. and suddenly you get lots and lots of shooty.
Lock On. Eldar RARELY use this, and for good reason. while they can crump a ship with it, they MUST travel (in the ordnance phase) in the same direction, no turning allowed. So they have the choice of: Stay put and get pummeled, or move closer to the rest of the fleet..and get pummeled. If they say "lock on" plan to break some face.
BFI. Force them to do this as often as possible. with BFI, there is no reload, there is no lock on.
Any other tidbits of advice are welcome.
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Nice tactics. Most of which rely on your opponent flubbing his saves. I'll just leave Horizon to answer your points as clearly you have not gone up against an Eldar with IN.
Hellebores? Aconites? When most Eldar will be taking Hemlocks and Nightshades?
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Great job proving my point in the previous thread, Admiral
For everyone else who doesn't have an over inflated sense of self importance, please comment away.
http://s283.photobucket.com/albums/kk318/Zelnik/?action=view¤t=IMG_20101012_161105.jpg
Here is my eldar fleet, since i clearly don't play them, true it's craftworld, but my corsairs are not painted yet.. So far i am only missing a Nid fleet in my expansive collection :D
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What point? That you're tailoring your list against Eldar? Sure. That you're relying on Eldar to flub their saves against everything else? Sure.
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Well since it's clear you did not actually read my post, i suggest you don't post any more until you do so.
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I did. Nothing in there that I've not seen before.
Except for maybe letting your ship blow up in the midst of Eldar. Though since it is treated like lance shots, am sure Eldar get a save against those as well. Eldar can ride out an NC explosion of a shot that deviated onto them you know (at least that's what the designers claim).
Oh, and judging by your ship choices, yes, that's pretty much called tailoring.
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Admiral, now it's clear you haven't read the RULES.
Eldar do not get holofields against explosions.
And if you have seen these before, then start using them, you may find your fights going a lot better.
It's cute that you want the game to be changed to your image, but your not so important, nor so smart, that you have the right to do so. The whole basis of eldar is that you either win big, or you lose big. there is no in-between.
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Ok found the errata in the old FAQ PDF. You are correct that it does not save vs Warp/Plasma Drive Implosions. I admit my mistake on that part. Learned something new then.
Even then, aside from that, nothing else in there that I have not seen offered up before. Aside from which I wouldn't recommend sacrificing one ship deliberately as a tactic just to try and hope to hit Eldar with the right distance rolls. See that's the problem with your proposals above. You're hoping to get the right distance or hope Eldar fail their holofield saves. You're asking an IN player to overextend himself from the get go. Yes those can happen but it's not something you build your tactics upon. It's one thing to change up your tactics every so often to try to keep your opponent off guard. It's another to try and figure you wits out on how to reach out and touch Eldar from the get go before they slice you to bits.
Am I claiming I'm that important? No. I'm just a player with some ideas. I do not claim I have a right to do so. On the other hand you're not that important yourself. The game is evolving already with the HA asking for players to test and get their opinions. Whether they use my ideas or yours, what's important is you make yourself be heard. I've tried to look at it from both Eldar and other faction's point of view and you know what? Eldar is broken, no matter how you look at it.
The problem with Eldar is they almost always win. And as you point out when they win, they win big time. Now what does that say about the other player? If it happens once in every few games that's no problem. The fact is since they win almost every time and win big, people will get turned off by it. They will feel bad. People would prefer a nice, closely fought game and it wouldn't matter if they win or lose with the occasional big time win or big time loss. Presently, it's not fun for some factions. And if I remember correctly, there is an entry in the rulebook which says the idea is to have fun.
Again, it's why people have offered up the MMS idea. I'm not saying it's the right ruleset but the reason why it came about, again emphasis on MMS being created by an Eldar player himself and not me, is to make things more even bet Eldar and another faction. If it does so, then I would accept it.
The reality is, all skills being equal, Eldar almost always have the upper hand and win. I understand fighting at a disadvantage but you have to give the disadvantaged guy a reasonable chance of winning without having to resort to extreme tactics. Even Warmachine-Hordes, a definitely borken game with borken models is balanced across factions though some faction can be a bit better than another. I just want things changed for Eldar to be a bit more balanced towards other short ranged factions. If that is cute for you, then nothing I can do about it.
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Escort heavy fleet..
Not a weakness. means there are far more targets and the loss of one or two don't make a dent in the overall battle plan. It basically decentralizes the Eldar firepower ensuring that there will be enough left to still nail the target. It's kind of like getting attacked by a swarm of bees; you can take down a few but there will be plenty more you can't get to send you packing.
Tough ships, you have 6+ prows, and 5+ armor, and you need 6's to crit. after this game, you will probably be happy for it.
This is mostly irrelevant and a useless point when there can be upwards to 15 pulsar lances on the field hitting on 4+ like your own batteries do to eldar ships and they can get all the benefits of shooting at a closing ship without needing to face the 6+ armor. 6+ crits are nice though.
Outnumbering the enemy. Your ships are cheaper!
I'd like to point out that in a typical Eldar fleet, you are facing mostly escorts which means that you won't be outnumbering the eldar fleet as IN even though eldar capital ships are more expensive.
Yes, they get holofields, but the more you force them to roll, the more likely they will roll a 1... and just imagine all those marvelous blast markers.
It should be noted that regardless of how many BM you put down, eldar only have to test once for passing through all of them which really doesn't make it any better than just putting one down and moving on to a different target.
Group bombers in large numbers against cruisers.
This is inaccurate. It's better to send bombers in one at a time than as a wave because of holofields and the lack of eldar turrets. sending them in one at a time makes eldar test for each bomber rather than once to negate the entire wave. This equals higher odds of getting at least one bomber through.
Why on earth would you list the overlord but not the vengeance? It does everything the overlord does and is harder for eldar to supress... and it brings more firepower to the table. I rarely leave home without a pair of vengeance :)
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Sorry, forgot the vengence. And for your information, Eldar do not roll holofeilds for the wave of bombers, they roll holofeilds against the attacks the bombers make.
Escort fleets suffer from lack of durability, and without shields, it becomes a significant weakness when someone gets a good shot off on you.
I always considered eldar batteries to be more dangerous then pulsar lances. Hitting twice with the same dice is not easy, even when it's a 4+. IF someone is landing 15 pulsars into you, you should know it's a good time to brace for impact! (maybe ;)
I refer to outnumbering when it comes to hit points, forgive my lack of clarity.
Yes the vengence is a great craft for it, Excellent range and in pairs wreck face, even more so then overlords with their stronger battery strength. a special list is required to take them at the 2 for 1 deal though.
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Admiral, thanks for the respectful tone this time. i appreciate it.
What i am trying to say, that just like the space marines in this game, who are not supposed to win most of their games, the Eldar are supposed to. They have been fighting in space for millions of years longer then humanity, and in this setting, and at this scale, technology differences matter.
It's supposed to feel like trying to kill a mosquito with a sledge hammer. If you can hit it, you crush it flat, but hitting it is the problem. They are simply BETTER then most of the other races when it comes to space combat. This ISN'T a balanced word! Why don't they just 'take over everything'? because their ships are low in number, and they don't have the resources to do so.
It works in very well with the established fluff and for the feel of the game. Just like the tau suffer heavily on the ground, but their innovative technologies make them far more of a challenge in space. Necrons are 'slow and cumbersome' on the ground, but in space, they are faster then any other race. Here, the rules are different. Technological advances make the game, and the IN are behind the times. When the IN win a game, the player should feel good about overcoming the challenge.
Basically, what i am saying is, this isn't Galactic Civ 2, where everyone has the same ship, but looks different. This isn't even Sword of the Stars, where the ships are a little different, but the techs are the same. This is closer to Babylon 5, where an entire fleet of human ships can be defeated by a single minbari cruiser.
And most importantly of all, this is NOT 40k, where the rules change to sell the newest codex release, and space marines are the darlings of the makers. If the enemy has better tech, then your tactics had better damn well be better to compensate.
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I always considered eldar batteries to be more dangerous then pulsar lances. Hitting twice with the same dice is not easy, even when it's a 4+. IF someone is landing 15 pulsars into you, you should know it's a good time to brace for impact! (maybe Wink
well 15 pulsars is just using three squadrons of 5 hemlocks. That's not even factoring in the rerolls, though it ends up something like 12 hits when you do. With the VS, eldar will still be able to take about 25 escorts split between hemlock and nightshades.
a special list is required to take them at the 2 for 1 deal though.
To be fair, that list is just as official and has same limitations as the gothic list while only lacking the Dominator.
Escort fleets suffer from lack of durability, and without shields, it becomes a significant weakness when someone gets a good shot off on you.
emphasis on WHEN. escorts are fast and they are harder to hit on the gunnery table. As IN, you don't usually have a lot of long range batteries which makes it even harder to get that shot. I figured it up a long time ago so the numbers are a bit fuzzy, but I think you need something in the range of S30-40 batteries at 45-60cm to have good odds of taking down three or 4 eldar escorts a turn assuming you actually get that kind of shooting off.
My typical fleet is an empy with ab, 2x vengeance, 2x lunar with nc, and 2x dauntless. That fleet is actually the product of a similar thread over on warseer about the competitive viability of the IN. It was designed to weather an alpha strike from that killer tau fleet, have a shot against eldar and chaos, do decently well against marines. I've not faced eldar with it so I can't comment on how well it accomplishes those goals, but it does do pretty well against the chaos and other IN fleets I've taken it up against.
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Hi,
Holofields. Ahh the dreaded "terminator" 2 up save. There are two ways for you to overcome this. 1, bring batteries to the fight (and lots of them)
This is tailoring. Not allowed. ;)
A lot of eldar rush in for that extra few dice from being within 15cm, make them pay for it.
The wise Eldar player won't. He stays at 30cm. Pulsars do not need to be close and always closing on the gunnery table is enough dice.
Also only these ships are equipped with batteries:
* Shadow = ill adviced ship, never taje
* Solaris = ill adviced ship, never take
* Hellebore = worst ship, never take
* Aconite = with str5 closing is good enough, good ship
* Nightshade = will forgo batterries to fire torpedoes, excellent ship.
* Void Stalker = great ship, will stay at distance. Depending on situation even at 45cm.
Movement. Eldar movement is entirely dependent on the sun. Yes, they get two moves, but this means that you can predict where they go! If you form a wall of cruisers and herd them into a corner, the only direction they CAN move is through the line, giving you a chance to pound the tar out of them. Push them to one side of the table, use your defenses to your advantage, and they will have NOWHERE to go.
All in theory, this is the hardest part to predict about Eldar and games with them.
Even at half strength, a pair of lunars will give you six batteries and two lances, plus ALL of your torpedos. all you need to do is hit once or twice to give them a really hard time, or even force a brace for impact.
True, AAF can work. Could leave your fleet out of formation though. Also it is torpedoes or guns. Not plus. In most cases.
Yes, bombers are good Eldar chasers.
Hellbores (DUN DUN DUN!!!) These things.... hurt. They are literally designed to destroy one cruiser and cripple another in a single round if used correctly. However, these are also huge point sinks.. If you see six on the table, focus on them, kill them with as much vigor as you can!!
Aconites (Dun DUN!) Ow. Ow ow ow. st 5 battery. Ow. 6 of them. OW. Kill them with a passion. use torpedo's to break up their formation and force blast marker rolls.
Good Eldar players just never ever take the Hellebore. It is a worthless piece of wraithbone.
The Aconite is taken by the Eldar player who likes batteries in his fleet. I do. They're good.
Best Eldar vessels (Corsair):
* Nightshade, 40pts with the most evil weapon in the game on it : Eldar torpedoes.
* Hemlock, 40pts for a Pulsar lance.
* Under 1000pts the Eclipse for carrier capacity
* The adventurous Eldar players leaves the Eclipse at home and takes Aurora's.
* The Void Stalker is added above 1500pts.
The powergames fleet for 1500 would be:
Void Stalker + Nightshades + Hemlocks.
The more fluffer would add Aconites and perhaps an Aurora.
Solaris, Shadow, Hellebore are just non-options. Only for the fluff only player who likes the dying race aspect. heh heh.
So, Zelnik, what's your allround non tailored Imperial Navy fleet? You recommend a lot of ships but what's your IN fleet.
Curious.
All in all your tactics are not new, not really.
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Non tailored fleets.
Here is my double overlord cruiser list.
2 overlords, 50 point commander
2 lunars
2 dictators
1 gothic. 1500 exactly.
I use this against anything, because it's a great against everything.
Fleet number 2.
1 dictator
1 gothic
1 mars
1 Apocalypse battleship
2 battery upgraded tyrants
Again, great balance in the fleet, with two nova cannons.
Fleet number 3
2 Armageddon Battlecruiser
3 Endeavor light cruisers
1 exorcist grand cruiser
1 oberon battleship
Do i need to keep going?
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and i will make a point.. I have fleets that use every escort in the corsair eldar arsenal. I think all of them have a place in the fleet.. and i don't play the 'hardcore i wanna win all the time' fleets. If i did that, i would bring nothing but dominators to my games as IN.
It's entirely possible that you are not thinking flexibly enough as to the purpose of the ships you described as useless. Many people consider the Murder a worthless chaos cruiser, and the Carnage more effective... while i say the carnage is a one trick pony, and i would sooner have a murder.
Don't be so quick to claim that 'everyone' feels the same way.
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Hi,
no need to go on. I'll be back later.
No escorts make me sad. So much for fluff and staying true to background ;)
warnz...
huh?
Murder is actually ok (see Admiral D'Artagnan's Chaos fleet).
But here you say that all Eldar escorts have a place (not hardcore) yet you have no escorts in the Imperial fleets.
Thats is apples & oranges Zelnik. :)
Give me 1 reason the Hellebore is actually usefull...
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No escorts make me sad. So much for fluff and staying true to background ;)
That is more a problem with non-Eldar escorts in general than a justification that Eldar are overpowered.
Cheers, Gary
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Again, I know about fighting at a disadvantage. It's a nice challenge as long as one has a reasonable chance of winning. However, against Eldar, the reasonable chance of winning is nil against seasoned players.
I know people prefer the Carnages. Look at my Chaos list. It's full of Murders. I know they have their place. However, if I have to use 2 Overlords in order to negate it's lack of punch, which isn't cheap as I need 4 regular cruisers just to get two of them, then never mind. The difference between the Murder and the Overlord is that the former is a cheap cruiser. I don't need to pay for anything more unlike the Overlord which I need to pay a minimum of 220 points per Overlord. That gets expensive fast and may or may not result in getting a reliable list. Meanwhile I can get almost 5 Murders for the cost of 2 Overlords and 2 Dauntless'.
I have tried thinking optimistically about where I can find a use for the Overlord instead of using a Vengeance. Unfortunately, I can't. Vengeance's and Exorcists are much better options than the Overlord. For a few more points, the Armageddon wins out.
The Overlord has a simple enough fix. Instead of FP8@60cm WBs, give it the option to got FP12@45cm WBs for no points change. I'd be happy with that and most likely a few others. BFG is BFG and other games are other games but it doesn't mean that every race has the same ships. People would even love for the Mars to get a torpedo variant at 10 points less. I would. The result of these ideas? Options which can only benefit the game more. These two ship variants won't even break the game.
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No escorts make me sad. So much for fluff and staying true to background ;)
That is more a problem with non-Eldar escorts in general than a justification that Eldar are overpowered.
Cheers, Gary
I disagree. Every escort has its place. I never leave without. Well handled they win your games.
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No escorts make me sad. So much for fluff and staying true to background ;)
That is more a problem with non-Eldar escorts in general than a justification that Eldar are overpowered.
Cheers, Gary
You're joking right? You actually think the non-Eldar escorts are a problem? I can't say the same. IN have the Swords. Chaos is better as a cruiser fleet rather than an escort fleet but some lists do take them. SM escorts are excellent enough stat wise. Orkz live mostly with the Terror ship and the rest, escorts. Nids live by escorts and the Hive Ship. I can say Tau and Necron might have issues with escorts but even then, they're not that bad. Even DE escorts aren't bad.
So maybe it really IS just because the Eldar is overpowered.
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I disagree. Every escort has its place. I never leave without. Well handled they win your games.
Funny, in the vast number of games I've played the number of times there are any escorts left on the table after a few turns is frankly miniscule. Cruisers win games. Escorts are little more than ablative armour for them.
So maybe it really IS just because the Eldar is overpowered.
I have noticed that those who claim such also support the idea that list tailoring is a bad idea, as if the tournament mentality is the only means of balancing a fleet. Suffice to say I disagree (and for the record my primary fleet is IN, though I do have all three Eldar fleets, Orks, Marines, Bugs and Necrons as well).
Cheers, Gary
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I don't own many escorts, horizon, just six fallies, but i confess, i really enjoy cruiser combat!
What uses for the Hellbore? This may seem very 'ideal circumstances, but hear me out.
Target a ship. Knock down shields with the battery, pulsar it to death, if it survives, send the torpedo's into it. If it doesn't, send the twelve torpedo's into the path (or into) another ship. Twelve eldar torps are more then enough to cripple or even destroy another ship.
Admiral.
All good points, But I would take two overlords and two dauntlesses any day over five murders. With the advantage of extreme firepower and maneuverability of the dauntless combined with the extreme range of the overlord.
And No, the 45cm switch is not acceptable. Why? because it says the ship was an attempt to put battleship weapons on a battlecruiser hull. Making it 45's, would displace the tyrant. Giving the Mars torpedos would displace the Dictator.
You have options in the IN fleet, but you shouldn't get THAT many options. Your options will ruin what makes the ships different from one another, and ruin the tactical decisions required at fleet composition. At this rate you should just let people pick what weapons and at what ranges you want to pay for for each cruiser hull. Hell why not do it for the battleships too? Completely remove the 'class' system for the ships and just have a generic "imperial cruiser" "Imperial Battlecruiser" "Imperial Grand Cruiser" "Imperial battleship". Who needs fluff? who needs background?
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You're joking right? You actually think the non-Eldar escorts are a problem? I can't say the same. IN have the Swords. Chaos is better as a cruiser fleet rather than an escort fleet but some lists do take them. SM escorts are excellent enough stat wise. Orkz live mostly with the Terror ship and the rest, escorts. Nids live by escorts and the Hive Ship. I can say Tau and Necron might have issues with escorts but even then, they're not that bad. Even DE escorts aren't bad.
So maybe it really IS just because the Eldar is overpowered.
Are. You. Mad.
Tau escorts, especially the FW tau escorts are incredible. 5+ armor, 90 degree turns, 3 batteries 2 turrets and 2 tau torpedos? these ships are great! The orca and Warden are cheap as spit and have 2 batteries and a lance! all you need are grav hooks and you can get those with no problem. they ALSO have access to the Nicassar Dhow, which is the BEST ESCORT IN THE GAME!
Necron Escorts are INSANE, 6+ armor, d6x10 AAF, the jackals have PORTALS for splb's sake! I have crippled ships in the first round by doing AAF with some dirges, moving them behind an enemy fleet and attacking a ship from where they can't get me! the 2+ brace keeps them alive! 50CM speed helps too.
Dark eldar escorts are just as crazy. 45cm speed, shadow fields, and are the best platform to take Impaler assault modules.
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Hi Silashand:
Funny, in the vast number of games I've played the number of times there are any escorts left on the table after a few turns is frankly miniscule. Cruisers win games. Escorts are little more than ablative armour for them.
Then stop using them as ablative armour. ;)
I have noticed that those who claim such also support the idea that list tailoring is a bad idea, as if the tournament mentality is the only means of balancing a fleet. Suffice to say I disagree (and for the record my primary fleet is IN, though I do have all three Eldar fleets, Orks, Marines, Bugs and Necrons as well).
Are you saying tailoring is okay?
Hi Zelnik,
What uses for the Hellbore? This may seem very 'ideal circumstances, but hear me out.
Target a ship. Knock down shields with the battery, pulsar it to death, if it survives, send the torpedo's into it. If it doesn't, send the twelve torpedo's into the path (or into) another ship. Twelve eldar torps are more then enough to cripple or even destroy another ship.
Mind you torps can explode on a blastmarker.;)
So, one juicy target for the enemy to shoot at = 450 points..
I could also take 6 Nightshades @ 6 Hemlocks for 480 points.
Same amount of weaponry But double amount of hitpoints, double amount of survival. A Nightshade & Hellebore are both to be killed with 1 lucky dice. The expensive ship has no advantage.
Normally I go by squadrons of 3, that way I present 4 different targets to the enemy to chose from. Even two squads of 6 possible.
Attack wise I can do the same. I can apply different tactics (eg splitting).
warnz
Yes (we agree.... ;) ). Tau Orca's, Wardens & Castellans, and even Defenders are good.
But I disagree (lol) on the Dhow.
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On a six. The same odds an escort pops on the same blast marker ;)
In the end, horizen, it's a matter of choice, i would rather have the power focused in one squadron, with a lower chance of blowing my reload orders, but i DO have fleets that have two sets of six of the 40 point escorts. They ARE useful, you just don't use them :)
The dhow is great.. 2 shields, 2 turrets, 180 degree turn and 3 port AND starboard weapons? I will not hear a bad word against it! ;)
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Are. You. Mad.
Tau escorts, especially the FW tau escorts are incredible. 5+ armor, 90 degree turns, 3 batteries 2 turrets and 2 tau torpedos? these ships are great! The orca and Warden are cheap as spit and have 2 batteries and a lance! all you need are grav hooks and you can get those with no problem. they ALSO have access to the Nicassar Dhow, which is the BEST ESCORT IN THE GAME!
Necron Escorts are INSANE, 6+ armor, d6x10 AAF, the jackals have PORTALS for splb's sake! I have crippled ships in the first round by doing AAF with some dirges, moving them behind an enemy fleet and attacking a ship from where they can't get me! the 2+ brace keeps them alive! 50CM speed helps too.
Which is why I had a qualifier. "Might" and I did say they're not bad.
Dark eldar escorts are just as crazy. 45cm speed, shadow fields, and are the best platform to take Impaler assault modules.
And again, I said they're not bad. So we actually agree on things. ;D
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The one key thing that i need to point out, Eldar escorts, and even the dark eldar escorts.. all have 4+ armor. Even if you get ONE Shot with a battery (you just need a st 3), they DIE on a 4+. Not that hard.
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All good points, But I would take two overlords and two dauntlesses any day over five murders. With the advantage of extreme firepower and maneuverability of the dauntless combined with the extreme range of the overlord.
I wouldn't. I would always take the 5 Murders. Even if the Dauntless' flank the Murders, they'll be looking at a combined WB FP of 50 on Lock On. Meanwhile the 10 60 cm lances focusing on one Overlord at a time means BFI'd Overlord for one turn and another BFI'd Overlord the next.
And No, the 45cm switch is not acceptable. Why? because it says the ship was an attempt to put battleship weapons on a battlecruiser hull. Making it 45's, would displace the tyrant. Giving the Mars torpedos would displace the Dictator.
Why would it displace the Tyrant? 195 points for the FP10@45 cm then buy the Overlord with 2 of the Tyrants for solid WB fire? I'd do that in an instant. As Sigoroth once suggested (at least that's what I recall), the Tyrant really should come with all base 45 cm for 190 points instead of 195. Then again, these are just my ideas (the Overlord weapon switch and Mars torp switch), though I am not the only one who has provided them.
However, I wouldn't even mind if they just got rid of the Tyrant and then replace it with a torpedo variant Dominator. This way, the base cruisers all retain 30 cm weaponry with 6+ prow, with a sprinkling of NCs and ACs. The longer ranged weapons can then stay on the BCs and the GCs and the Battleships. Still very IN.
You have options in the IN fleet, but you shouldn't get THAT many options. Your options will ruin what makes the ships different from one another, and ruin the tactical decisions required at fleet composition. At this rate you should just let people pick what weapons and at what ranges you want to pay for for each cruiser hull. Hell why not do it for the battleships too? Completely remove the 'class' system for the ships and just have a generic "imperial cruiser" "Imperial Battlecruiser" "Imperial Grand Cruiser" "Imperial battleship". Who needs fluff? who needs background?
There are still differences between races even with those options in place. Also, I'm not saying limit the option availability to IN. Every race should get the options as long as again it is fluffy and fits the faction's playstyle. It's time to let the game evolve further. Face it, the last few races that have come out like Nids and DE basically have one cruiser profile and you can just mix and match weapons. I think IN and Chaos can be the same. What differentiates one from the other would now be how the weapons perform.
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Hi Zelnik,
if I go by one 6 strong Nightshade squadron I need the same amount of reloads as one Hellebore squadron. Hemlocks do not need reload.
Well, yes they die on a 4+. But Dark Eldar escorts will be closing within 30cm where as Corsair Escorts will be above 45cm abeam or moving away.
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The one key thing that i need to point out, Eldar escorts, and even the dark eldar escorts.. all have 4+ armor. Even if you get ONE Shot with a battery (you just need a st 3), they DIE on a 4+. Not that hard.
Yes but how often can IN get that one shot in? Esp as Eldar escorts generally will be at ranges above 45 cm? Amount of dice are going down really fast now.
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A lot. it's not like the table is of infinite size. On a 6x4, there is only so far you can go before the imperial phalanx corners you on one side of the table.
Another thing i would like to point out is that it seems like your trying to make IN ships be strong enough to function independently. The problem is, they simply were not designed to do this, most IN ships were meant to function in a squadron of 2 in order to be effective. From what i have been able to determine, the only IN ship that functions well on it's own is the Armageddon.
I will maintain my point, try the 2x overlord list I made. You may be surprised at how powerful it is against just about any opponent. I have taken it up against Chaos, Diasporex, Orks, Nids, eldar, tau and necrons and it always did a great job (while i did not always WIN, the enemy never left the field in one piece)
here is the basic tactic for the fleet.
Keep everything in a squad of two, aside from the gothic, which acts as a 'wild card'. keep the lunars together, keep the dictators together, keep the overlords together, base-to-base with their squad mates. Deploy the overlords about 30cm apart from the rest of the fleet, to give the impression of splitting forces.
While your moving towards the enemy launch bomber (or fighter squadrons if necessary), and torpedo attacks. While your standard cruisers engage the enemy, the Overlords should be moving around the side to flank the opponent, constantly firing their weapons (typically using batteries to knock down shields, lances to chip off hits). their extreme range will keep them (reasonably) safe. another, more risky tactic is to turn parallel with the table, and have them send their broadsides directly into the oncoming enemy ships.
If the enemies go for the overlords in large numbers, turn them in towards the center of the table, launch torpedo's and bring your fleet around to support, locking the enemy in a pincer attack of torpedo's and death.
Against eldar, keep the Overlords in the center of the fleet, moving the standard cuisers out first to form a perimeter around the overlords, giving them some protection as they fire at long range. if the enemy tries to attack the perimeter, they suffer from the overlords attacks, if they go after the overlords, they suffer from the perimeter's attacks. Use carriers as torpedo and bomber defense.
Against necrons, keep the Gothic close to the overlords, and AIM FOR THE TOMBSHIP! (shocker i know). bombers should be attacking scythes and shrowds. (yes the scythe has three turrets, but it's better then throwing them at a battleship or escorts.)
Against Nids, focus your fire on the hive ships while your torpedos and bombers attack the escort craft (especially those thrice damned krakens) IF one of your cruisers is boarded, don't be afraid to 'push the button' for a chance to cause a lot of pain to their ships before you open fire with the rest.
Against tau, all of your carriers should be focused on CAP and torpedo interception, move the fleet in as a wedge to break through the Tau phalanx and get behind their ships do not split your forces or you will find the enemy focusing on whichever side is more vulnerable (aka, the side with fewer carriers!), once you force them into a close brawl, the Tau suffer. Keep the overlords at a distance shooting at targets of opportunity, and aim for their big carriers. Ramming, boarding and close range combat are your best friends.
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It's not like Eldar stays cornered. Plus maintaining the phalanx, even with 1500pts and 2 long ranged ships & 2 carriers it will be a hard job to do.
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Horizon, try it before you bash it.. And if you want to get out of the wall, the eldar have to cross through the fleet of imperial ships, giving them an opportunity to fire.
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As said, battleplans are always nice in theory and at times you will follow them but be prepared for the canny opponent who just does not play along your plans. ;)
Versus the Eldar your setup is given. But what about this:
Eldar outmoves/turns the IN, you will agree. They come from one side, perhaps with celestial phenomena as aid. They get to 30cm and fire at your abeam cruiser(s) (perimeter). Gunnery ships doing this. Then they move away at least 20cm. Creating a distance of 50cm to your perimeter and 80cm to your Overlord. Now you must first move forward, you cannot get them.
Eldar torps will be fired pointing at your prows. Yes 6+ armour, but with their re-roll you might see hits.
A lot of this sun - celestial phenomena dependant. But that's random.
Tau, depends on Tau fleet. The 3x Explorer, 2x Hero, 9x Orca, 3x Defender will phalanx and let you come.
Also: when not being shotgunned 7 fighters will nullify your torpedoes.
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One VERY important point I need to state is, in the upcoming 2010 faq, nova cannon blasts ignore holofields, giving you a free opportunity to damage ships or force them to brace. The IN just got a little tougher ;)
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Nope. They reverted the NC rules against holofields back to the old rule. See version 3.2 of the FAQ. Even then all the Eldar have to do is maintain the 15 cm separation and it'll be very hard to tag more than 2 Eldar with the template.
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as teh admiral said, that got reverted. I'm hoping that it isn't too late to see about it returning though.
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ahbugger.
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Oh, how do you handle the following blasphemy:
Scenario: Raiders:
First turn:
Eldar move on table
Shoot one target to oblivion
Move off in ordnance phase
Battle Won on VPS for Eldar.
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Oh, how do you handle the following blasphemy:
Scenario: Raiders:
First turn:
Eldar move on table
Shoot one target to oblivion
Move off in ordnance phase
Battle Won on VPS for Eldar.
Yeah, I did a slightly less cheesy version of this (slightly) to my Chaos opponent. I was out to prove a point that using the rules as written regarding battlezone selection and victory points Eldar were unbeatable. I had 2 turns of shooting at him, crippled a couple of his ships and destroyed an escort squadron. He was finally starting to get ordnance through my screen; he attacked one of my escorts with an a-boat, missed and left a BM in contact. It was at this point that I just arrogantly disengaged. As luck would have it I did lose that one escort to the BM (I simply forgot to brace). I could have fought on and bloodied his fleet very considerably before they were in a position to retaliate. I would simply had to have weathered some more AC. As it was I could have spent another turn shooting at his ships and then flown off the edge of the board in the ordnance phase to disengage instead of disengaging in the movement phase . So I ended up with like 300 VPs to his none. Win. :'(
Note: if he had've tried to sulk off in a corner and overwhelm me with AC he'd have failed. I'd have been able to reach a closer asteroid field and corner him. Also, with the longer distance and me sending out fighters to each turn it'd have taken like a year from that far away.