Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Rules Questions => Topic started by: flybywire-E2C on November 07, 2010, 04:05:37 AM
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All,
Bob and I have discussed this at length, and both of us have witnessed munchkin gamers fielding fleets of ONLY Nova Cannon ships. My gaming group in Norfolk has a table limit of one NC ship per 500 points, and at home I play no more than two per 750. I have played this for years against many opponents (my primary fleet is Imperials) and have found it very balanced.
Today Bob and I made the circuit of various gaming shops in the Greater Atlanta area (Hobby Lobby, Treefort and Tower Games). This issue came up yet again, and in particular we witnessed a game where a single player fielded a 1500-point fleet with six Nova Cannon! Even with crappy dice rolls, this fleet was crippling a cruiser a turn at maximum range before teh two fleest even closed close enough to engage each other.
We have not yet run this by Ray. However, here's the line-item proposal for the 2010 FAQ:
No more than two Nova Cannon-equipped vessels may be taken for every 750 points or portion thereof in the fleet.
Let the screaming, hate and gnashing of teeth commence...
- Nate
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Greater Atlanta area? That's only a couple of hours from me. I have no problems with this at all as I never take more than 2 NC in a 1500 point game as I find it boring to go all out but necessary to take more than one to have any decent results*. If it is limited like this, would it be possible to give the NC a slight boost by only making it scatter a max of 2d6?
*note, my opponent usually interprets this as opening round hitting at least once and rolling either a 5 or 6.
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Greater Atlanta area? That's only a couple of hours from me. I have no problems with this at all as I never take more than 2 NC in a 1500 point game as I find it boring to go all out but necessary to take more than one to have any decent results*. If it is limited like this, would it be possible to give the NC a slight boost by only making it scatter a max of 2d6?
*note, my opponent usually interprets this as opening round hitting at least once and rolling either a 5 or 6.
Hi Vaaish! :D The idea is to incorporate a minor change that doesn't involve changing a well-tested core mechanic. If we are going to change teh core mechanic (even a little bit), we would simply change it so that no restriction were required at all instead of making it slightly more powerful to compensate for less being allowed.
Keep in mind the wide scatter has an anti-ship effect in and of itself, which was intentional. I know plenty of examples where a NC round scattered off of one target just to land dead-on another target nearby.
- Nate
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well the point in dropping the 3d6 was mainly the random factor involved. 3d6 is pretty predictable in that you have such a low probability of rolling three ones and still hitting or even touching the edge of the template that it basically becomes you either hit and do a bunch of damage or you don't and do nothing. Dropping to to 2d6 means there are better odds of still scattering and putting down a BM and it eliminates the useless 3d6.
While it may happen from time to time, the odds of scattering off one ship and on to another with 3d6 scatter on a random direction are pretty slim unless your opponent packs his entire fleet around the base of one ship. (and in that case deserves whats coming!)
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1 per 500.
Nova Cannon isn't scary like it used to be. Under guess range it should've been 1 per 2500. HHAHAHA.
I never seen a scatter hit another ship. Not even a base.
What about the AdMech?
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1 per 500 would be great. I say that simply because its supposed to be a rarer thing, and that my Admech playing friend always feels kind of let down that normal IN can actually field more nova cannons than he can. At one per 500, or one for every three cruisers, which I like better, it would at least be about equal.
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I think in small games nova cannons arent the problem, you cant field many anyway, and nova cannons are best when used together.
In my experience novacannons are rather strong in big fights, when 3 shoot at the same targets maybe added with 60cm fire of other weapons.
So im not sure if a point restriction is the best way, even though i have to think about an alternative.
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My biggest problem with this idea is that the Dominator is one of my favourite line cruisers for its WB loadout. Similarly, the Mars is a good CB, since it's a true support carrier (as compared to the line carrier of the Dictator). While the Mars is overpriced, so is the Dictator really.
If there were a torp variant Dom then such a restriction would be fine. On the other hand, I'm also fine with having no restriction and playing against an all NC fleet. Hell, I played against all NC fleets when they were overpowered "guess" weapons. :-\
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I agree with your points, but I think those problems should be dealt with directly, with the other cruisers.
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The only Nova Cannons I tend to have are on my Dominators. I can definitely see how they can be lethal at long range, but at short range without torps IN ships are really going to suffer. Surely it's down to the player without the Nova Cannon to close as quicly as possible?
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No, no NC limitations. Unless, as proposed, the IN gets a torp version of the Dominator. Otherwise this rule makes the best gunship (not even counting its NC) almost unavailable to the IN.
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I agree with Vaaish, the 3d6 band (introduced in 1.5 without consult ;) ) makes NC pretty daft at long range unless a hit is rolled.
In the FAQ1.5 the maximum scatter was 2D6. Good enough for me.
Nova Cannon should be Lock On affected. :)
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I do believe you have gone mad :)
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Lockon is too much for NC ;-)
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No way. With 3d6 scatter and a limit at 1 per 750.... it should have something good.
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Nova as a weapon is perfect as is. Its still hitting 1/3 of the time at a range nothing else can come close to reaching.
As to the Dominator, I have always felt it should be a 200 point ship, considering how pricey nova upgrades are deemed worthy to other ships.
I think the Tyrant should be a 190 point ship with str6 rather than str4 45cm batteries.
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You pay more on other ships because it's an option, and you always pay more for options. If you were to make the Dominator 200pts, I'd insist on a 180pt version with torps.
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No, no NC limitations. Unless, as proposed, the IN gets a torp version of the Dominator. Otherwise this rule makes the best gunship (not even counting its NC) almost unavailable to the IN.
If we are talking about the Dominator getting a torp option, how is the Dominator at 190 points any better than a Tyrant at 185? Okay so the Dominator has +2WB's a side, the Tyrant comes with better range that is paltry but gets MUCH better for just a few extra points.
For the cost, I'd give up an escort to trade three Dominators for three Tyrants with the gun upgrade any day of the week, but that's just me. It costs two more Cobras to give them all NC's, but I like to mix and match torps and NC's and am more often NC-light than NC-heavy. Again, that's just me.
I have over 4,000 points of fully painted Imperial ships (with twice that in the yards with nothing but a blue basecoat and gray drybrush), and my entire fleet of fully painted ships has only 7 Nova Cannon. I even know what they are: 1 Dominator, 2 Tyrants, 2 Mars, 1 Lunar and 1 Victory BB. Granted I have about 6 more in the fleet still waiting to be fully commissioned, but there's about 5,000 points in that pile.
Yes, I know. Don't judge me! It's a sickness...
- Nate
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I have seen nova cannons scatter and hit wacky stuff. Like the time it scattered off by braced scythe and into my tomb ship :(
I believe that 3 max for up to 1500, and that's a stretch. If someone walks in with a nova cannon fleet of doom, I usually want to leap over the table and punch him in the nuts... it's only fair because that's what he is trying to do to my fleet.
The answer is simple, you see more then 3 nova's in a 1500 fleet.. don't play him. OR play eldar and make another eldar hater out of him.
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Neutering the NC again eh? No, not unless you boost it to make it better. You have to realize other than the fact that the reason why the NC fleet is taken a lot is not just because you can, its because at the moment, the NC sucks already as a weapon system with so many rules intended to limit its effectivity. People now have a justification for bringing it since it is not a reliable weapon. Bump up the reliability and I would welcome any limitation in exchange.
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Zelnik, what about AdMech?
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My main problem has always been the Dominator being a much better ship than the Tyrant for 5 more points, but I think everyone knows that argument already.
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The Problem is only that some lucky Nova shots can decide a game, thats what ppl fear.
BUT most often novas dont d a lot of dmg. After all ist all Imps have for long range battle and they have to take less torpedoes so reducing one of their strengh.
I dont think Novas should be limited you always can make your house rules in a gaming group if you dont like them.
As pointed out only in big battles i think novas are overpowered because if like 6 or 7 noves fire at two ships there wont be standing much after the shots, and in big battles you cant hide all of your fleet behind asteroinds so there are always targets for them. Thats their main strengh in my opinion.
Ive seen that happen in a 11000 total points game with mixed fleets (chaos tau and ork, i know its a strange combination but there were too many imp and sm players, VS imp and sms). The novas plus 60cmlances simply crushed the chaos cruisers before they could do much.
We didnt finish the game but the losses were big on chaos side when the fleets engaged close range.
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Lucky is the keyword here. ;)
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I'm not a NC fun (and I'm an IN player) but limiting the NC means that Mars, Dominator and the Apocalypse are restricted too, so in my personal opinion that wouldn't be a good thing, as seen that the IN fleet is the fleet of the choice. Maybe it would be well if you make a torpedo variant of those ships, but I don't understand this need of limiting the NC.
I always thought that its limit was the scatter and the short range blackout, I mean that after a certain point of the battle it become almost useless.
I have never seen a scattering shot that has hit a ship that wasn't the primary target, even against all NC fleets (only the 1 hit of the area a couple of time, pretty useless).
I recognize that used against fleet that are usually less outnumber (Necron, AdMech) it is more effective.
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We use 1 NC limit per 750 pts. This is done because in 1000 games 2 NC are a little bit brutal. They will put one of your ships on brace straight away at least and cripple it at moste, granting an immediate win.
1 NC is more of a tactical weapon than a damage-dealing one - it makes an opponent nervous and forces him to manuver or brace.
2 NC for 1500 is enough for same reasons as above but a crippled ship on 1 turn in 1500 battle is not such a big problem
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@Nate
Ugh, the Tyrant is a lemon.
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Another vote against limiting nova cannons as already stated it will limit ships. Maybe limit the nova cannon upgrade option?
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I'm not a NC fun (and I'm an IN player) but limiting the NC means that Mars, Dominator and the Apocalypse are restricted too, so in my personal opinion that wouldn't be a good thing, as seen that the IN fleet is the fleet of the choice. Maybe it would be well if you make a torpedo variant of those ships, but I don't understand this need of limiting the NC.
I always thought that its limit was the scatter and the short range blackout, I mean that after a certain point of the battle it become almost useless.
I have never seen a scattering shot that has hit a ship that wasn't the primary target, even against all NC fleets (only the 1 hit of the area a couple of time, pretty useless).
I recognize that used against fleet that are usually less outnumber (Necron, AdMech) it is more effective.
Okay, now lets review. Say NC's are limited to 2 per 750 points. Because a Mars is already 270 points AND you need 2 cruisers just to have a Mars (say 2 Dauntless for maximum munchkin), you need at an absolute minimum 490 points per Mars. Thus, the Mars is just fine, since you need 980 points to have two of them even if you min-max your fleet, keeping in mind that if you are a min-max munchkin, you deserve what you get. The only limitation imposed here is if you wanted to go full-bore munchkin and get your Mars with two Dominators, which you would no longer be allowed to do: Mars + Dominator = 460 points. In order to get another NC ship, you need at least one more cruiser, say a Lunar, which I might add is supposed to be the most plentiful cruiser in the Imperial Navy. Now for 750 points you have three cruisers, two of which have NC's. Or, we can even min-max again and buy two Dauntless to go with our Mars/Dominator pair, giving us four capital ships with two NC's for less than 750 points. Not too shabby! The Apocalypse is a battleship so this gets even easier- it soaks up nearly half the 750-point limit all by itself.
The ONLY ship that would actually be restricted by this rule would be the Dominator, which you could now no longer take more than two of per 750 points. Don't get me wrong, I like the thing and have a few, which I make distinct from my Tyrants by using different prows and bridges (they're supposed to be from Kar Durniash anyway). If Dominators are so vitally important to your fleet that you absolutely MUST have more than two of these per 750 points, you need to develop better tactics, not to mention you have some very forgiving (or naive) opponents.
The only problem a 2 for 750-point limit brings up will be for those who want to go all-NC, which is essentially what you would be doing if you try and cram 3 NC's into a 750 point fleet. That is pure munchkinism and totally against fluff- this weapon system is supposed to be rare. I don't care how much you play BFG; if your strategy as an IN player is to field as many NC's as you can cram into a fleet, you need to develop better tactics.
Don't get me wrong, there are tactics that seasoned players can use to defeat an all-NC munchkin, and I have done it on a number of occassions because I like the challenge and find skewered fleets useful for play-testing. However, BFG is intended for everyone, and the game I saw in Atlanta was ridiculous. One player was being introduced to the game for only the second time, and he was REALLY put of to see his fleet mashed to pulp before he even closed to shoot back. New players should not need to have explained to them, "Don't worry about losing your entire fleet for no damage on my side, you just need to develop better tactics against this kind of weapon."
One more reason they should be limited to 2 per 750 points is a more subtle one. The Adeptus Mechanicus don't have battlecruisers per se, and they can use NC's on every cruiser type in their inventory except CL's. However, as a rule their ships are considerably more expensive than equivalent IN types. This means that in a min-max matchup with the IN pushing all Dominators, the IN would actually end up with more NC's than the AM fleet for a given point value, a preposterous assertion. Now the IN will still have more ships because they are cheaper, but at least NC's will be at parity.
- Nate
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AM don't use battlecruisers because their normal cruisers fulfill that role with +1 turret and dorsal lance
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If Dominators are so vitally important to your fleet that you absolutely MUST have more than two of these per 750 points, you need to develop better tactics, not to mention you have some very forgiving (or naive) opponents.
- Nate
This is such an insulting statement. Sorry, Nate but with the state of the NC NOW, there is a reason why people take the thing en masse: BECAUSE IT SUCKS TAKEN SINGLY OR EVEN IN PAIRS. So now you want to further neuter it by limiting it? Well sorry but that's a crock of ****! Tell ya what: GET RID OF THE THING. It's obvious anyway you people don't want it in any list. Just change every NC armed ship to torps. Simpler.
Oh and for what it's worth, I play different combinations from all NC to all torps to mixed. People should be allowed to play the thing without restriction the way it's ruled now. You want limits? THEN IMPROVE IT rather than presume that a player's tactic is the problem.
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Nate, that was a lot of text that did not convince me. 1 per 750 is too few given the current NC rules.
Ofcourse when a veteran(?) plays a new player he should be slapped for doing such fleets. He also should be slapped as the NC is not common but rare fluffwise.
IN fleet:
Apocalypse (NC)
Mars (NC)
Lunar (+NC)
Lunar (+NC)
Lunar (+NC)
Dominator (+NC)
is under 1500pts, is 6 Nova Cannon is a lot.
AdMech:
Retribution (+NC)
Dictator (+NC)
Lunar (+NC)
Gothic (+NC)
Gothic (+NC)
= 5 nova cannon under 1500pts. All of them with dorsal 60cm lances.
As AdMech would be unrestricted they could do +3 Nova Cannon compared to a IN fleet with 1 per 750.
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If Dominators are so vitally important to your fleet that you absolutely MUST have more than two of these per 750 points, you need to develop better tactics, not to mention you have some very forgiving (or naive) opponents.
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I don't care how much you play BFG; if your strategy as an IN player is to field as many NC's as you can cram into a fleet, you need to develop better tactics.
If you cannot run up against an all NC fleet with a reasonable battle plan then you need to develop better tactics. If you cannot run up against an all NC fleet with equanimity and poise then you need to develop better sportsmanship. It's just as munchkinish to whine about NC spam to the point that we impose a limit on them as it is to take them beyond the proposed limit.
As for the notion that they're rare, well there are 2 points that specifically address this. Firstly ships are in the process of being refitted to NC, so they're becoming more and more common as time goes on. Since they were described as rare in the BBB which was back in the 12th crusade there has been a fair amount of time elapsed since then. There's been another black crusade and then the Tau expansion since.
Secondly, while NC might indeed be rare throughout the IN as a hole, there's no reason to suppose an even distribution. There might be entire battlefleets armed with pure NC fitted ships and many more battlefleets with not a single one. It actually makes sense to form a NC battlegroup, so this isn't terribly implausible.
My own personal love of the Dominator stems from a number of factors. First it has complimentary weaponry. That is to say that while closing the Dom can shoot away at long range with its NC and by the time it gets to the minimum range cut-off its broadside weaponry will be able to take over. Secondly, being a "pure" ship its easier to manoeuvre to best effect. Thirdly, WBs can end up doing significantly more damage than their equivalent weight of lances when positioned well.
While the NC does factor into these preferences, it's not because it's an overpowered weapon, or because of its psychological effect or because of how it performs in numbers. It's really just the complimentary nature of the weapons, the ranges and the approach utility, that lends itself to the Doms selection.
So, I want to have the option of taking as many Doms as I like, simply because I like Doms, rather than because I like the NC so much. In fact, I never take the NC option of the Lunar or Tyrant (well, I never take the Tyrant anyway).
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Nate, that was a lot of text that did not convince me. 1 per 750 is too few given the current NC rules.
Hi Horizon! :) Egad! I said two per 750 points, not one.
Ofcourse when a veteran(?) plays a new player he should be slapped for doing such fleets. He also should be slapped as the NC is not common but rare fluffwise.
IN fleet:
Apocalypse (NC)
Mars (NC)
Lunar (+NC)
Lunar (+NC)
Lunar (+NC)
Dominator (+NC)
is under 1500pts, is 6 Nova Cannon is a lot.
AdMech:
Retribution (+NC)
Dictator (+NC)
Lunar (+NC)
Gothic (+NC)
Gothic (+NC)
= 5 nova cannon under 1500pts. All of them with dorsal 60cm lances.
As AdMech would be unrestricted they could do +3 Nova Cannon compared to a IN fleet with 1 per 750.
Because AdMech ships are inherently more expensive than their IN counterparts, the proposed NC restriction favors them because if the weapon is unrestricted, IN fleets will always be able to field more than their AdMech counterparts because the IN can put more ships in space. Personally I don't believe any fleet should have more than two NC's per 750 points but I will bring it up with the HA's.
Keep in mind that this is not anywhere nearly the restriction it sounds like. In a typical 1500-point battle, that is four NC's in the fleet. Considering the range of this weapons, any table greater than 60cm a side (and many are much more than that) will see targets catching four rounds of this a turn for two to three turns before 60cm weapons can even begin returning fire.
- Nate
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lol.... I remember reading 1 per 750.
A frick it, 2 per 750 sounds so unusual my mind just registerd it as 1 per 750.
I keep silence as 1 per 500 is even less.
I should add I like the 1 per 500 as the Nova Cannon is still rare (perhaps less rare then older history) but not common. But NC should get back 2d6 scatter at max range.
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If Dominators are so vitally important to your fleet that you absolutely MUST have more than two of these per 750 points, you need to develop better tactics, not to mention you have some very forgiving (or naive) opponents.
- Nate
This is such an insulting statement. Sorry, Nate but with the state of the NC NOW, there is a reason why people take the thing en masse: BECAUSE IT SUCKS TAKEN SINGLY OR EVEN IN PAIRS. So now you want to further neuter it by limiting it? Well sorry but that's a crock of ****! Tell ya what: GET RID OF THE THING. It's obvious anyway you people don't want it in any list. Just change every NC armed ship to torps. Simpler.
Hi Admiral! Easy does it with the tempers! Nobody's getting rid of the NC. Not being accurate is not the same thing as "sucks." Show me another weapon in the entire game that can reach out and hit targets at 120cm. Even at that range this weapon gets a dead-on hit 1/3 of the time, guaranteeing a BM, speed loss, etc. 1/6 of the time (1/3 x 3/6) it will even be scoring damage on cruisers instead of just knocking down shields, and that DOESN'T take into account scatter variations, battleship bases, etc. All that from ONE Nova Cannon.
Oh and for what it's worth, I play different combinations from all NC to all torps to mixed. People should be allowed to play the thing without restriction the way it's ruled now. You want limits? THEN IMPROVE IT rather than presume that a player's tactic is the problem.
We are not making any changes to the NC core rules at this time. As for restricting NC's to two per 750 points, PLEASE try it before getting so upset. You know why Chaos is only allowed one Planet Killer? Because it is themeful but CRAZY powerful. We didn't dumb down the Armageddon Gun so Chaos can have more of them, we just restricted how many of these a player can have. To a much lesser extent, this is what we want to do with the Nova Cannon as well.
- Nate
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I should add I like the 1 per 500 as the Nova Cannon is still rare (perhaps less rare then older history) but not common. But NC should get back 2d6 scatter at max range.
Against!
Admiral, one or two novas is still useful. Escort clusters, slowing down ships with blast markers, decimating AC waves from fleets that try to hide from you. Thats part of the nova tool.
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Hi Admiral! Easy does it with the tempers! Nobody's getting rid of the NC. Not being accurate is not the same thing as "sucks." Show me another weapon in the entire game that can reach out and hit targets at 120cm. Even at that range this weapon gets a dead-on hit 1/3 of the time, guaranteeing a BM, speed loss, etc. 1/6 of the time (1/3 x 3/6) it will even be scoring damage on cruisers instead of just knocking down shields, and that DOESN'T take into account scatter variations, battleship bases, etc. All that from ONE Nova Cannon.
You don't get why I'm upset do you? The NC has been the most neutered weapon in the game. For all the advantage you point out there are lots of disadvantages as well. It hits 1/3rd of the time? Well it misses 2/3rds of the time, it doesn't always guarantee a BM therefore no speed loss. I should be happy I score damage 1/6th of the time? I should be happy that I can scratch a battleship's shield? The thing can't even hurt Eldar. Yeah, all from that ONE Nova Cannon.
We are not making any changes to the NC core rules at this time. As for restricting NC's to two per 750 points, PLEASE try it before getting so upset. You know why Chaos is only allowed one Planet Killer? Because it is themeful but CRAZY powerful. We didn't dumb down the Armageddon Gun so Chaos can have more of them, we just restricted how many of these a player can have. To a much lesser extent, this is what we want to do with the Nova Cannon as well.
- Nate
What's to try? As I said, I play different combinations of NC. Did you understand what I wrote? You know why the IN get the NC? Because their ranges are SHORT. The AG is much more powerful than the NC. Are you serious? Really?
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Im absolutly ok with 2 per 750, as Nate said it only prevents going all nova and thats something i dont need to have.
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If Dominators are so vitally important to your fleet that you absolutely MUST have more than two of these per 750 points, you need to develop better tactics, not to mention you have some very forgiving (or naive) opponents.
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I don't care how much you play BFG; if your strategy as an IN player is to field as many NC's as you can cram into a fleet, you need to develop better tactics.
If you cannot run up against an all NC fleet with a reasonable battle plan then you need to develop better tactics. If you cannot run up against an all NC fleet with equanimity and poise then you need to develop better sportsmanship. It's just as munchkinish to whine about NC spam to the point that we impose a limit on them as it is to take them beyond the proposed limit.
Hi Sigoroth! When introducing a new player to the game, they shouldn’t have to resort to reasonable battle plans and well-practiced tactics in order to avoid getting wiped off the table in four turns before their own fleet even gets more than a few shots off. I know how to handle myself against an all-NC fleet, as do you, Horizon and a host of other players here. However, BFG was never intended to be a game for purists- it’s supposed to be a game I can grab some nine-year-old (my son was 7 when he first played back in 2001), teach him the basics, give him some ships and have a good time. Having a good time is the key here, as it is for any game.
Smearing some noob just because I can hide behind rules to do so means the rules are broken. That means either there are too many of a particular weapon system allowed, or the weapon itself needs to be toned down. Because we are not revisiting Nova Cannon at this time, the alternative is to restrict the number of this weapon allowed.
Letting an Imperial fleet have all the NC’s it wants is like saying Chaos can treat Planet Killers like any other battleship and have one for every three cruisers, and we aren’t doing that either.
As for the notion that they're rare, well there are 2 points that specifically address this. Firstly ships are in the process of being refitted to NC, so they're becoming more and more common as time goes on. Since they were described as rare in the BBB which was back in the 12th crusade there has been a fair amount of time elapsed since then. There's been another black crusade and then the Tau expansion since.
Secondly, while NC might indeed be rare throughout the IN as a hole, there's no reason to suppose an even distribution. There might be entire battlefleets armed with pure NC fitted ships and many more battlefleets with not a single one. It actually makes sense to form a NC battlegroup, so this isn't terribly implausible.
Here Sigoroth you are dead-on accurate. A Kar Durniash fleet list would likely be particularly NC-heavy were we to rely entirely on fluff. Just because it is fluff-true doesn’t mean it’s a good idea in game terms. Three Blackstone Fortresses killed an entire star! Do you propose we allow someone to field three Blackstone Fortresses, let them draw a straight line all the way across the table and auto-kill anything the template touches? Rules dictate fluff, not vice versa. Regardless of how much sense fluff makes, we can’t use fluff to create inherently broken rules.
Sometime in the future we can re-visit NC’s to create a toned-down weapon that can be taken without restriction. However, since that is NOT something we are visiting right now, the quick and dirty solution is to restrict how many of these can be in a fleet, keeping in mind that 2 per 750 is not too terrible a restriction.
My own personal love of the Dominator stems from a number of factors. First it has complimentary weaponry. That is to say that while closing the Dom can shoot away at long range with its NC and by the time it gets to the minimum range cut-off its broadside weaponry will be able to take over. Secondly, being a "pure" ship its easier to manoeuvre to best effect. Thirdly, WBs can end up doing significantly more damage than their equivalent weight of lances when positioned well.
While the NC does factor into these preferences, it's not because it's an overpowered weapon, or because of its psychological effect or because of how it performs in numbers. It's really just the complimentary nature of the weapons, the ranges and the approach utility, that lends itself to the Doms selection.
So, I want to have the option of taking as many Doms as I like, simply because I like Doms, rather than because I like the NC so much. In fact, I never take the NC option of the Lunar or Tyrant (well, I never take the Tyrant anyway).
:D You have already told me how much you dislike Tyrants! :D Personally I like Dominators myself, enough so that I modeled them distinctly from my Tyrants, which I happen to like a bit more than you do. From a tactics perspective, I think the biggest reason you dislike Tyrants so much is precisely because of how they compare to Dominators when used as a prow-on fleet. I find however that when used tactically (meaning NOT when equipped with NC’s), they are a fine ship that pairs quite nicely with Gothics, especially if you spend the points for all-45cm batteries and maneuvering a Gothic between them and the knife fight. That’s just me however.
- Nate
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You don't get why I'm upset do you? The NC has been the most neutered weapon in the game. For all the advantage you point out there are lots of disadvantages as well. It hits 1/3rd of the time? Well it misses 2/3rds of the time, it doesn't always guarantee a BM therefore no speed loss. I should be happy I score damage 1/6th of the time? I should be happy that I can scratch a battleship's shield? The thing can't even hurt Eldar. Yeah, all from that ONE Nova Cannon.
You say NC’s are the most neutered weapon in the game. The only major change these weapons underwent was from the original guess-range mechanic, which was straight-up broken. Back when guess-range was the rules, I personally only needed exactly one round of guess-range shooting to sight my rounds in, then I could guess dead-on hits turn after turn until the fleet closed. I was unstoppable against anyone except Eldar, and I know plenty of players who were just as effective. That’s why those rules went away so many years ago.
You didn't mention this thing can hit at 120cm, AND you didn't mention that an unrestricted 1500-point NC fleet can drop SEVEN “2/3ds misses a time†each turn. You are right- one single NC isn’t that impressive. However, seven NC’s are statistically crippling a cruiser once per turn, at least two turns before an opponent with 60cm weapons can even BEGIN to return fire, and THAT figure assumes a table isn’t more than 90cm across, of which most I’ve played on are almost twice that much.
What's to try? As I said, I play different combinations of NC. Did you understand what I wrote? You know why the IN get the NC? Because their ranges are SHORT. The AG is much more powerful than the NC. Are you serious? Really?
You are absolutely right that IN ranges are shorter than equivalent Chaos vessels, for which the NC acts to offset to an extent. Of course the AG is much more important than the NC- that’s entirely my point. However, there isn’t much difference between carrying an AG on every 505-point BB in my fleet and carrying an NC on EVERY ship in my fleet, is there? Any rule-set that allows a 1500-point fleet to cripple a cruiser at 120cm in the very first turn of the game needs to be fixed.
Let me be clear- a point restriction is the quick and dirty fix. A much better and more long-term fix is to re-do how NC work in the first place, but that isn’t something we can take on right now with the other projects we have in the hopper. Those projects have to be complete before we even begin to examine the core rule-set.
- Nate
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You say NC’s are the most neutered weapon in the game. The only major change these weapons underwent was from the original guess-range mechanic, which was straight-up broken. Back when guess-range was the rules, I personally only needed exactly one round of guess-range shooting to sight my rounds in, then I could guess dead-on hits turn after turn until the fleet closed. I was unstoppable against anyone except Eldar, and I know plenty of players who were just as effective. That’s why those rules went away so many years ago.
I don't mind the change from Guess to Scatter Dice. I do mind when the bands are suddenly increased to three and that Eldar get away even when the shot scatters on them. Bad enough that they should escape the direct hit of an area effect weapon without getting any damage. But even the scatter?
You didn't mention this thing can hit at 120cm, AND you didn't mention that an unrestricted 1500-point NC fleet can drop SEVEN “2/3ds misses a time†each turn. You are right- one single NC isn’t that impressive. However, seven NC’s are statistically crippling a cruiser once per turn, at least two turns before an opponent with 60cm weapons can even BEGIN to return fire, and THAT figure assumes a table isn’t more than 90cm across, of which most I’ve played on are almost twice that much.
Yes, so? That's essentially the doctrine of their planet based counterpart anyway. Bombard. Does that statistic include celestial phenomena or planets which you can hide behind? You do play with terrain right? You do realize you can AAF to mitigate the number of turns you're under fire right as well as to get in range to shoot and get under the minimum range of the NC? You do realize you can BFI right? Then you would blame the IN player and imply that he has no other tactics that he can use to win when you as an opposing player have as much tactical options as the NC spamming IN player? Please.
You are absolutely right that IN ranges are shorter than equivalent Chaos vessels, for which the NC acts to offset to an extent. Of course the AG is much more important than the NC- that’s entirely my point. However, there isn’t much difference between carrying an AG on every 505-point BB in my fleet and carrying an NC on EVERY ship in my fleet, is there? Any rule-set that allows a 1500-point fleet to cripple a cruiser at 120cm in the very first turn of the game needs to be fixed.
There is no difference bet one BB carrying one AG vs 3 ships of carrying 3 NCs yes but there is the difference in effect. The AG is much more reliable as a weapon. That's a big difference. Sorry but unless you improve the NC from the current state it is in, I would never agree to any point limitation because as I have found out through experience, 1-2 NCs aren't really worth it with the present rules.
Let me be clear- a point restriction is the quick and dirty fix. A much better and more long-term fix is to re-do how NC work in the first place, but that isn’t something we can take on right now with the other projects we have in the hopper. Those projects have to be complete before we even begin to examine the core rule-set.
- Nate
I'd rather you fix it NOW than resort to quick and dirty fixes and resort to blaming the IN player for not winning games unless he takes massed NCs. If you cant fix it now, then let it remain as it is because I don't see it as a problem bet 2 experienced players as you have even admitted yourself. The problem came up and was seemingly highlighted because you saw an experienced guy abusing a new guy with the NC spam. In that case the problem is not with spamming the NC. The problem is with the veteran player.
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7 Nova Cannons concentrating on one vessel can expect 8.2 hits per turn at long range. That's roughly 3 hits on a cruiser that braces. At a closing rate of 35cm per turn, you get 3 turns shooting and one dead cruiser (8hits), but you have to focus on the one ship or the effect is diluted by shields.
Alternatively, your 7 cruisers could have all torps and a Torp Dauntless with the points left over. That's 48 Torps. Reduced to 42, due to a cruiser getting annihilated by the above nova cannon list, and reduced again to 35 by turrets. That's 5.8 hits, plus those on ships behind the one(s) targeted. (+1.4, assuming only half those fired get a secondary target)
So 8 vs 7.2. The torps also get to continue firing, unlike the Nova Cannons. It's not as big a problem as you make out.
Anyone could get beaten into the ground by a list they don't expect. A Necron fleet or Tournament Tau will be far more effective in that regard than Nova Cannon Spam. You can't stop people writing power lists. The Nova Cannon has high potential damage, but rarely delivers.
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Hi Nate,
the scatter Nova got a (surprise) nerf from FAQ1.5 into rulebook 1.5. The FAQ had the scatter at 2d6 for the maximum band, 1d6 for the lower. The rulebook added a 3d6 band.
That's the scatter nerf.
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I'd rather you fix it NOW than resort to quick and dirty fixes and resort to blaming the IN player for not winning games unless he takes massed NCs. If you cant fix it now, then let it remain as it is because I don't see it as a problem bet 2 experienced players as you have even admitted yourself. The problem came up and was seemingly highlighted because you saw an experienced guy abusing a new guy with the NC spam. In that case the problem is not with spamming the NC. The problem is with the veteran player.
No, the problem is that the rules allowed a veteran player to spam a weapon against an inexperienced opponent. We can't write rules hoping that people will be gentlemen, because for every gentleman out there that wants to play a challenging game, there's a munchkin that tailors his fleet to smash all opposition using any weapon spam allowed.
Sigoroth's argument is valid in that while he doesn't want the NC rules to change, its because of a particular ship choice he feels works most synergestically. That is something I can understand- I happen to like Dominators myself for exactly the same reason. However, your primary argument is based solely on how an IN player should be able to take as many NC's as the player wants, and an opponent should just learn to deal with it, which I don't consider to be a solution. Most of the feedback here tends toward the opposite, and ALL of the feedback I have seen in e-mails, three different player groups in Atlanta and two player groups here in Norfolk is that this change needs to be incoroprated. We simply do NOT have the time to develop a whole new rule-set right now, not to mention that isn't in our mandate at this time, and your insistence that an all-NC fleet is perfectly legal is exactly why a restriction needs to be put in place. Just like you say opponents need to learn how to deal with fighting an all-NC fleet, you can just as easily learn to fight effectively mixing torps into your NC ship units.
This is not yet set in stone. Depending on how the HA debate goes, maybe this won't hapen, maybe it will be two per 750 points, maybe it will be something else, like 3 per 1000, etc. Until the NC gets fixed so that a massed weapon isn't smashing opponents when they can't even shoot back for several turns, some kind of restriction will probably end up being put in place. This is what is fair for EVERYONE, not just for all the IN players.
- Nate
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Hi Nate,
the scatter Nova got a (surprise) nerf from FAQ1.5 into rulebook 1.5. The FAQ had the scatter at 2d6 for the maximum band, 1d6 for the lower. The rulebook added a 3d6 band.
That's the scatter nerf.
Thanks- I forgot about that, but the scatter nerf was intentional. What we found is that at range, 2D6 scatter was still scoring dead-on hits on battleship bases a little less than 1/3 of the time, in addition to the 1/3 of the time dead-on hits were actually rolled. The most common rolls with 2D6 ended up being between 5cm-9cm from the target stem, which isn't a lot of wiggle room considering a BB base is about 5cm across.
- Nate
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No, the problem is that the rules allowed a veteran player to spam a weapon against an inexperienced opponent. We can't write rules hoping that people will be gentlemen, because for every gentleman out there that wants to play a challenging game, there's a munchkin that tailors his fleet to smash all opposition using any weapon spam allowed.
And much as we would all like to have world peace, it's nigh impossible. Yes, the vet was a jerk for doing that to a noob. But that should not prevent the using of a list which is not broken against another competitive player.
Sigoroth's argument is valid in that while he doesn't want the NC rules to change, its because of a particular ship choice he feels works most synergestically. That is something I can understand- I happen to like Dominators myself for exactly the same reason. However, your primary argument is based solely on how an IN player should be able to take as many NC's as the player wants, and an opponent should just learn to deal with it, which I don't consider to be a solution.
Yes but only because the NC is not a reliable weapon when taken in few numbers. That has been my main argument. Not because the IN player can.
Most of the feedback here tends toward the opposite, and ALL of the feedback I have seen in e-mails, three different player groups in Atlanta and two player groups here in Norfolk is that this change needs to be incoroprated. We simply do NOT have the time to develop a whole new rule-set right now, not to mention that isn't in our mandate at this time, and your insistence that an all-NC fleet is perfectly legal is exactly why a restriction needs to be put in place. Just like you say opponents need to learn how to deal with fighting an all-NC fleet, you can just as easily learn to fight effectively mixing torps into your NC ship units.
There have been many rules developed by certain players and even Ray. I've made one and since it does improve the weapon, I put in limits on how many can be put in play. You can check it out in the Warp Rift issue.
I don't just insist on something. I insist it should be viable because the NC as a weapon has already been nerfed hard and this is why people tend to take them en masse. If we stayed with the Guess rules then you would be hearing me insist on the NC being limited.
And yes, people do need to deal with it instead of crying broken when I haven't seen a list like this win in tournaments. Chaos and Tau can out ordnance it. Chaos can even outspeed it. Eldar are nigh invulnerable to it. SM has a different problem but even they can outspeed and out ordnance it. If Orks play the escort and Terror ship game, they can out ordnance it as well as get under the ranges real quick. Necrons will out speed it. And I'm talking about a regular non-tailored list.
And again, you're implying I do not use a mixed list. I do Nate. Really.
This is not yet set in stone. Depending on how the HA debate goes, maybe this won't hapen, maybe it will be two per 750 points, maybe it will be something else, like 3 per 1000, etc. Until the NC gets fixed so that a massed weapon isn't smashing opponents when they can't even shoot back for several turns, some kind of restriction will probably end up being put in place. This is what is fair for EVERYONE, not just for all the IN players.
- Nate
Really? And what about the IN who's weapon has been nerfed probably once every two years in the last 8? Is that fair to him? If you create a new ruleset that improves the weapon, fine, limit it. I don't believe you cannot even make a ruleset in a span of a few days or even a month if you really wanted to while you are still doing the other projects.
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Hi Nate,
the scatter Nova got a (surprise) nerf from FAQ1.5 into rulebook 1.5. The FAQ had the scatter at 2d6 for the maximum band, 1d6 for the lower. The rulebook added a 3d6 band.
That's the scatter nerf.
Thanks- I forgot about that, but the scatter nerf was intentional. What we found is that at range, 2D6 scatter was still scoring dead-on hits on battleship bases a little less than 1/3 of the time, in addition to the 1/3 of the time dead-on hits were actually rolled. The most common rolls with 2D6 ended up being between 5cm-9cm from the target stem, which isn't a lot of wiggle room considering a BB base is about 5cm across.
- Nate
Hey,
that's an overreaction because with the 2d6 the limitation on NC is warranted, with the 3d6 Much less.
See, hitting a battleship with a Nova Cannon is kinda wasted.
Because we should not forget (and in this thread I have a feeling this is sometimes forgotten.....):
* Shields do protect versus Nova Cannons. So versus most cruisers a roll of 1 & 2 means nothing, even if you rolled a 'HIT'.
* Ships can Brace for Impact versus Nova Cannons (the psychological aspect, brace or not, will it hit or not).
From personal experience:
Firing with Nova Cannon through all battles I used it:
First ever shot: HIT, 6 damage
following five shots, all scattered doing nothing.
Then another HIT, rolling 1 damage (vs shields).
Then another miss
Then another HIT rolling 2 damage (vs shields).
So, quite unimpressive really aside of the first shot it did nothing much for the subsequent 8 shots...
Against me:
Once a Wraithship was death in one shot (holofield rolled a 1 and being an Eldar I was too arrogant to brace). (5 hits, critical damage to kill it).
An Emmissary got crippled (3 hits, failed BFI rolls).
And a host of misses and scatters.
Again, fairly unimpressive.
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I'm not seeing how increased odds of hitting a large base is cause for the useless 3d6 roll on the NC. If you are shooting at a battleship you are wasting your time with the NC. Massed NC fire, could do some damage but even if you roll a 6 for damage you are only getting 2 hits on the BB and at that range, you probably wont lose much by bracing. I could understand if the problem was with the 2d6 scatter not being enough to reduce the damage against a cruiser, but against a BB you should be happy your opponent is wasting his firepower there rather than on the meat of your fleet.
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Yup, really against this change. The same number of torps do more damage per round once in range, and there are plenty of other power lists that would obliterate a noob. Why don't more people take all Nova Cannons? Because it's really not that effective overall! Far better to have the tactical flexibility of some torps as well.
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I do not believe in rules limitations for nova cannons. plain and simple. Admech can take as many as they like, and they will enjoy all 5 of their ships on the table while my six cruisers and one battleship chaos fleet rips them a very happy new one.
I just don't like playing it because it sucks to watch five to seven nova cannon templates lambast your labor intensive paint job battleship in one round.
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There's millions upon millions of conscripts which you can use to repaint your battleship. ;D
In any case, my position remains the same. Either upgrade the effectiveness or keep yer hands off the NC under the current ruleset.
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@ Nate
While it would be no fun for the poor newbie getting pasted by an all NC fleet, I could paste any newbie with any fleet, fluffy or otherwise. They're newbies. Getting pasted is part of the learning curve. Hell, I cut my teeth against all NC IN fleets and all AC IN fleets. Both back when their rules were broken.
I myself don't find all NC fleets to be overpowered, but if it's considered a "competitive" list, in the sense that it's munchkinish or min/maxing, etc, and this is bad against poor old newbies then are other "competitive" lists going to be similarly nerfed? The all Nightshade Eldar list (with perhaps a token carrier or two) for example. Or the all Hero/Explorer Tau fleet (with Orca/FC fillers). How about the trip Daunt + Emp 750 pt IN fleet? I'm sure all these are comptetitive fleet lists that would likely destroy any newbie.
The point here being solely that encouraging newcomers to the game is something that veterans should take on board, and if they decide to be ultra competitive ... well, there's no stopping people being dicks.
One last thing on the topic of fluff. I often hear that "fluff shouldn't dictate rules" or some such. I completely disagree with this sentiment. According to the fluff we have a net stalemate occuring. No side can gain the upper hand to defeat the others. Therefore anything in the fluff can be balanced to represent this. In fact, this is what we have points for. It's not as though we're given a certain amount of raw resources, crew and shipyards and told to build as best you can and go out and conquer the galaxy. We're given points that are supposed to balance things. For example, I've always been of the opinion that a single Eldar ship should soundly defeat any IN/Chaos ship of equal displacement.
This would make the game terribly unbalanced if Eldar always won. So we have points, meaning that the Eldar are outnumbered (or at least out-displaced). Therefore balanced. If we gave 3 activated blackstone fortresses a super-shooty-mega-death-shot then ... so what? That's 2250 pts of boarding bait. Big deal.
In short, since the fluff has an established stalemate we can safely follow it at all times. Only if the fluff came up with a clear winner would we have to shy away in order to maintain a balanced game.
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I know I'am going to disregard any NC limitation. Unless the NC becomes a more accurate weaponsystem.
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@ Nate
While it would be no fun for the poor newbie getting pasted by an all NC fleet, I could paste any newbie with any fleet, fluffy or otherwise. They're newbies. Getting pasted is part of the learning curve. Hell, I cut my teeth against all NC IN fleets and all AC IN fleets. Both back when their rules were broken.
Quoted for Truth. Nothing is going to stop a veteran destroying a noob if that's what he sets out to do.
The all nova list isn't even a particularly bad offender. If it were, it would be winning and prevalent at tournaments. Is it? No.
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I'm personally in-favor of no limitations. I've never played against 6 NCs in 1500 points, but I've played a number of games against 4 in 1500 and 1250 points on a 180x120cm table (I suppose this is inline with the 2 per 750pts). It simply forced me to chose AAF over other SOs to close fast, denying my Chaos fleet it's long range lance advantage. But once in so close, the IN fleet always suffers without Torps. My local IN player just gave up on the strategy when I adjusted my fleet tactics accordingly.
With terrain and thoughtful setup, how was the IN player able to even get so many shots off each turn during the game you watched? I'm also curious why it took 3 turns for the opponent to close.
Russ
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I know I'am going to disregard any NC limitation. Unless the NC becomes a more accurate weaponsystem.
Hi Commander! Now this here is the most common-sense thing I have heard this entire debate. It's the HA's job to try and keep this thing balanced when crafting official rules. Its the players' job to tell us to sod off and play however you and your opponent think is FUN!! :D
- Nate
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Well, at long range only an escort has to fear 1 NC if it hits. Other ships can or practically ignore it (battleships) or be a bit weary (cruisers). Limiting the number of NC would make it practically useless.
IF it would be more accurate and devastating, limits would be OK.
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I had a vision during nightshift, of the nova without range limitation, and then using the gunnery chart, and then both. Maybe it will resurface.
I think a 190-195 point Tyrant with str6 batts at 45cm would go a long way in solving any Dominator problem :)
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I had a vision during nightshift, of the nova without range limitation, and then using the gunnery chart, and then both. Maybe it will resurface.
I think a 190-195 point Tyrant with str6 batts at 45cm would go a long way in solving any Dominator problem :)
Why? I'd rather keep the Dominator's FP12@30cm batteries to any FP6@45cm batteries.
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@ Nate
While it would be no fun for the poor newbie getting pasted by an all NC fleet, I could paste any newbie with any fleet, fluffy or otherwise. They're newbies. Getting pasted is part of the learning curve. Hell, I cut my teeth against all NC IN fleets and all AC IN fleets. Both back when their rules were broken.
I myself don't find all NC fleets to be overpowered, but if it's considered a "competitive" list, in the sense that it's munchkinish or min/maxing, etc, and this is bad against poor old newbies then are other "competitive" lists going to be similarly nerfed? The all Nightshade Eldar list (with perhaps a token carrier or two) for example. Or the all Hero/Explorer Tau fleet (with Orca/FC fillers). How about the trip Daunt + Emp 750 pt IN fleet? I'm sure all these are comptetitive fleet lists that would likely destroy any newbie.
The point here being solely that encouraging newcomers to the game is something that veterans should take on board, and if they decide to be ultra competitive ... well, there's no stopping people being dicks.
One last thing on the topic of fluff. I often hear that "fluff shouldn't dictate rules" or some such. I completely disagree with this sentiment. According to the fluff we have a net stalemate occuring. No side can gain the upper hand to defeat the others. Therefore anything in the fluff can be balanced to represent this. In fact, this is what we have points for. It's not as though we're given a certain amount of raw resources, crew and shipyards and told to build as best you can and go out and conquer the galaxy. We're given points that are supposed to balance things. For example, I've always been of the opinion that a single Eldar ship should soundly defeat any IN/Chaos ship of equal displacement.
This would make the game terribly unbalanced if Eldar always won. So we have points, meaning that the Eldar are outnumbered (or at least out-displaced). Therefore balanced. If we gave 3 activated blackstone fortresses a super-shooty-mega-death-shot then ... so what? That's 2250 pts of boarding bait. Big deal.
In short, since the fluff has an established stalemate we can safely follow it at all times. Only if the fluff came up with a clear winner would we have to shy away in order to maintain a balanced game.
Hi Sigoroth :) Trying to keep your teal quotes is a pain so I'l just respond to everything here. :D
The point here being solely that encouraging newcomers to the game is something that veterans should take on board, and if they decide to be ultra competitive ... well, there's no stopping people being dicks.
Absolutely right. Shame of it too, isn't it? Thankfully I haven't seen much of that here. Despite all the passionate disagreement, in sum it appears everyone here really is trying to propogate the game, which in the end is good for everybody. Don't worry Sig, I know you still hate me. I'm good with it. :D
One last thing on the topic of fluff. I often hear that "fluff shouldn't dictate rules" or some such. I completely disagree with this sentiment. According to the fluff we have a net stalemate occuring. No side can gain the upper hand to defeat the others. Therefore anything in the fluff can be balanced to represent this. In fact, this is what we have points for. It's not as though we're given a certain amount of raw resources, crew and shipyards and told to build as best you can and go out and conquer the galaxy. We're given points that are supposed to balance things. For example, I've always been of the opinion that a single Eldar ship should soundly defeat any IN/Chaos ship of equal displacement.
This is actually a completely valid assessment so let me tell you what I meant. What I meant is that fluff should be WRITTEN to rules instead of vice-versa. BFG (and WH40k in general for that matter) isn't the only game system guilty of writing expansive fluff that can't possibly be supported in actual gameplay. This is especially difficult for WH40k based games in particular because it has such a rich and evolved storyline, the game as a whole has just about become secondary to its own fluff. This is the biggest part of the problem with all things GW as of late: the storyline as intellectual property has become more valuable a commodity than the game system it was supposed to support. That would normally be okay, but it's not a good thing ever since GW went public and is now run by the suits, but that’s just me (see Horizon, I didn’t say “beyond the scope…†well, you know…). ;)
I’m listening, and I want this to be right, which is the big reason why we’re shy on pulling the trigger on the Errata/FAQ. I will be playing all-NC fleets against Tau, Chaos and Orks this weekend. I’ll tell you all how it goes.
- Nate
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I’m listening, and I want this to be right, which is the big reason why we’re shy on pulling the trigger on the Errata/FAQ. I will be playing all-NC fleets against Tau, Chaos and Orks this weekend. I’ll tell you all how it goes.
- Nate
Play using those fleets against an all NC fleet as well.
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By 6 at 45 I meant an upgrade from the 4, Admiral.
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I'm personally in-favor of no limitations. I've never played against 6 NCs in 1500 points, but I've played a number of games against 4 in 1500 and 1250 points on a 180x120cm table (I suppose this is inline with the 2 per 750pts). It simply forced me to chose AAF over other SOs to close fast, denying my Chaos fleet it's long range lance advantage. But once in so close, the IN fleet always suffers without Torps. My local IN player just gave up on the strategy when I adjusted my fleet tactics accordingly.
With terrain and thoughtful setup, how was the IN player able to even get so many shots off each turn during the game you watched? I'm also curious why it took 3 turns for the opponent to close.
Russ
Excellent question. The gaming tables at this particular place in Atlanta are glorious! Getting off subject, in this same place one of the largest 15mm-scale classical warfare battles ever played ANYWHERE was going on, with about 10,000 models or so on tables linked together the better part of 100 feet across (this is a big place). Anyway, I only caught the tail end of that battle, but I will give you an abridged BatRep of a similar situation I saw at Campaign Headquarters in Norfolk, VA, because they have really big tables at this place as well. Because of the huge tables, even with randomly rolled celestial phenomena, there were enormous fire lanes and lots of empty space. The Chaos player went first and had a lot of carriers but was not using his ships effectively, and NC guy subsequently used the first turn to move full distance to try and get into NC range (the tables are that big).
This brings up the NC nerfing. One big POSITIVE change that happened with NC's is that they now fire per-ship instead of all at once. It's important because that was a factor for this game. The first NC round actually managed to score three hits (with two crits) on a cruiser, but I admit that was just a very lucky roll. However, that freaked out the Chaos player, which the NC player used to his advantage very effectively by dropping NC markers one at a time on different cruisers, each time watching the Chaos player brace even though only one other NC shot actually scored a dead-on hit and even then only dropped BM's. For turn two the Chaos player couldn't AAF because most of the fleet was braced, but he didn't need to reload because the ordnance markers by this time weren't even halfway across the table, and the NC player ignored them despite not having ordnance superiority. teh NC player then stacked rounds sequentially, dropping them one by one on the damaged ship until it died despite being braced (it took four rounds to do this IIRC), with the last two rounds dropped on a second carrier to force it to brace even though it ended up only taking one hit.
This brings up yet another point. Like every other weapon system in the game, NC's singly or in pairs do very little, but a LOT of them are exceedingly powerful and will kill ships quickly. WB's and lances do the same thing, but only NC's are capable of this at 120cm, which is why the 3D6 scatter was introduced at range and is not being changed.
For turn three Chaos finally managed to reload two carriers, and his ordnance from Turn 1 finally reached the Imperial gun line, but once again the Chaos player didn't concentrate his ordnance (unsuccesfully trying to make the NC player brace multiple ships) so the NC player came off pretty light despite not bracing anything, though his fighters had something to do with this despite not having anything aproaching parity. Very smart fighter use by the NC player- he chopped markers out of individual waves instead of trying to wipe out one or two waves entirely, forcing all the bomb runs to be piecemeal and ineffective. The NC player once again dropped three rounds on the ship that took one hit, and that ship ended up dying despite being braced for two of the three rounds. Three more rounds were dropped on a third carrier, which ended up getting crippled despite being braced.
By turn four NC's became less effective because the Chaos player finally connected some brain cells and started using celestial phenomena to his advantage, though admittedly it was only then he was close enough to an asteroid field to use it effectively. Afterward the game was pretty normal, but the damage was already done.
I'm leaving some of the details out (mostly due to senility!), but that's the gist of the BatRep, and I've heard similar stories against players that are actualy pretty experienced. I'm going to be honest- this never came up before because in the circles I frequent, we just never mass NC's this way. Orks and Tau in particular come off badly against massed NC's, which is why these are the fleets I'll be playtesting this weekend against an NC-only fleet. I don't have enough Dominators to do it Sigoroth-style so I'll have to proxy this with Lunars and Tyrants. Tyrants in particular, since Sigoroth loves them so much! ;)
- Nate
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So..... because said Chaos player lost sense and tactics the NC should see a nerve to avoid massed NC fleets?
That in itself is enough reason to teach that Chaos players some tactics lessons. Not to ammend the rules so he can win with crap tactics.
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Pls can all the players who DONT agree to a 2 per 750 restriction write down thier usual fleet lists. Maybe we then see on what point ranged there even are any problems.
I mean are you really playing only nova cannons in your usual lists? For example if you even think about taking an Emperor and some escorts it maybe would already be enough points that the restiction wont even matter.
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I am a mainly a chaos player and we generally play 1000 games. Typically i face 1 or 2 novacanons at moste since our metagame limits them anyway. Generally I face a Mars cruiser or a couple of dominators or AM cruisers with novas.
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Caine: I play a lot of lists and if ever I do decide to bring NCs, I will always try to bring 2 or more but not necessarily all NC ships. If I do bring an Emperor, I usually bring torp ships so that I can dilute the opponent's focus on the AC. One can still fit a lot of NCs in the right size game though but I find it is better to add torp ships or Dauntless to support it. I have played the all NC list. Really, they're not that great. During that game, I missed a lot though some shots did do more than their fair share of damage. But in the end, the Dominator's WBs were the most telling factor one the game got under 30 cm.
Nate: As with Horizon, I see this as an overreaction on your part.
1. Chaos player is new.
2. Chaos player got scared with the lucky first NC shot.
3. Chaos player BFI'd all his carriers thereafter.
4. Only ONE NC shot hit dead on.
5. Chaos player did not make full use of phenomena.
Hardly a resounding endorsment on why the NC should be nerfed further by limiting it.
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I normally have 2 in my list - adding more takes up torpedoes and points I'd rather have.
But I still strongly object to limiting them. It seems like someone has arbitrarily decided that Novas are broken without really providing any evidence that they are. And if we're going to start nerfing powerful lists, are we going to prevent Hero/Explorer, All-nightshade, double Emperor and all-Scythe lists too, just because unscrupulous vets can unleash them on unsuspecting noobs? Come on, this is being blown massively out of all proportion to the effectiveness of the list in question.
If I wanted to, I could smack down a total noob using an all Endeavour/Defiant list. You aren't going to stop veterans annihilating noobs if they want to. Most of us realise that you need to teach noobs, and not put them off in their first games. Those vets that don't realise that don't deserve opponents.
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Agreed. I call a limit on the Explorer/Hero combo and only 3 Nightshades per 500pts....
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Novas have only one main problem - they are too random. They can do nothing or they can win a game. And it kills all tactics straight away because when there are lots of NC you can no longer do some interesting manuvers and are forced to break distance.
But I still strongly object to limiting them. It seems like someone has arbitrarily decided that Novas are broken without really providing any evidence that they are. And if we're going to start nerfing powerful lists, are we going to prevent Hero/Explorer, All-nightshade, double Emperor and all-Scythe lists too, just because unscrupulous vets can unleash them on unsuspecting noobs? Come on, this is being blown massively out of all proportion to the effectiveness of the list in question.
Actually this is what we do ))))) If I see a player setting up smth like that or firing torps at his own hemloks to get brace I will just go "Ok, you win! Great game!" since i value my time and want to see interesting games. If i wanted powergames or sportwargaming i would play 40k ))))))
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Hey Mazila
Here is my "Don't support the limitation list"
2 overlords (1 with an ld8 commander)
2 Lunars (no nova cannons)
2 Dictators
1 Gothic
Not a single nova cannon.
Why aren't they winning in tournaments? because tournament players tend not to be dicks :D
Also, Necrons don't win much either. Usually it's Tau or Nids that sweep tournaments.
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Caine: I play a lot of lists and if ever I do decide to bring NCs, I will always try to bring 2 or more but not necessarily all NC ships. If I do bring an Emperor, I usually bring torp ships so that I can dilute the opponent's focus on the AC. One can still fit a lot of NCs in the right size game though but I find it is better to add torp ships or Dauntless to support it. I have played the all NC list. Really, they're not that great. During that game, I missed a lot though some shots did do more than their fair share of damage. But in the end, the Dominator's WBs were the most telling factor one the game got under 30 cm.
Nate: As with Horizon, I see this as an overreaction on your part.
1. Chaos player is new.
2. Chaos player got scared with the lucky first NC shot.
3. Chaos player BFI'd all his carriers thereafter.
4. Only ONE NC shot hit dead on.
5. Chaos player did not make full use of phenomena.
Hardly a resounding endorsment on why the NC should be nerfed further by limiting it.
Hi Admiral! I just wanted you to know this wasnt' exactly a knee-jerk reaction. It is something the HA's were already discussing due to this coming up every now and again, but none of us actually saw it as a problem only because we had no idea anyone was actually trying to use NC's this way. I've only seen in once before last week (besides "challenge" games between my son and I), and it was really bloody. The fact that someone pushed the fleet on the table against his opponents wishes just because it was legal and then whalloped him with it convinced Bob and I maybe it actually was a problem.
The biggest lesson Bob and I took away is that while most people are gentlemen and just apply simple logic, we can't rely on EVERYONE to be gentlemen on the tables, especially when tourneys, prizes, etc. become a factor. Most of the comments here are along the lines of NC's are limited by the players themselves. If players are deciding themselves to limit a weapon system, that either means its broken, its too cheap or too easy to have. Changing the mechanic (broken) or price (too cheap) is more difficult to do at this juncture than simply limiting it (too easy to have) in a fleet.
Sigoroth brings up a good point- even without the NC, the Dominator is a pretty cool ship to have. This is something we will probably have to address separately. In the long term, the NC will probably need to be adjusted, because Sigoroth is also correct in saying that as time goes on this weapon will inevitably become more common, as was already happening during the Gothic War. Before we do ANYTHING like that, some more playtesting will have to be done. Stuff like this is why we're not rushing with teh 2010 Errata/FAQ. This way it can be right.
My son and I started our first all-NC test battle against Chaos last night and will be wrapping it up today. Anyone have any particular suggestions they would like to see in the Chaos test fleet for our second battle? I'd also like test fleet suggestions for Orks and Tau, which will be test battles #3 and 4. For sake of numbers, the 1500-point Imp fleet will consist of 5 Dominators and 2 Mars, only because 7 Dominators leaves me 170 points shy, which is too little to field an 8th NC ship under 1500 points in any case.
- Nate
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Chaos fleet 1:
Desolator
2x Acheron
2x Carnage
2x Devestation
Chaos fleet 2:
1x Styx + 2x Devestation
1x Hades + 3x Murder
Chaos fleet 3:
Desolator
Styx
2x Carnage
Slaughter
6x Infidel
3x Iconoclast
Tau fleet 1
3x Explorer
2x Hero
9x Orca
3x Defender
Tau fleet 2
1x Custodian
3x Warden
3x Protector
1x Emissary
6x Castellan
Orks fleet 1:
Max out Terror Kroozers, Deathdela
Orks fleet 2:
Hulk, Roks, escorts
I may not be exact on 1500pts...
You're sportmanship comment: this will allways exist.
The best would be if all players would be fluff players, not following exact fluff but at least trying to come up with a fluffy fleet.
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Hi Admiral! I just wanted you to know this wasnt' exactly a knee-jerk reaction. It is something the HA's were already discussing due to this coming up every now and again, but none of us actually saw it as a problem only because we had no idea anyone was actually trying to use NC's this way. I've only seen in once before last week (besides "challenge" games between my son and I), and it was really bloody. The fact that someone pushed the fleet on the table against his opponents wishes just because it was legal and then whalloped him with it convinced Bob and I maybe it actually was a problem.
So, did you also have an idea of how people were using the all Nightshades fleet and Explorer/Hero combos? My point of a knee jerk reaction is it's not a problem because it's a broken fleet. The problem was the player. He freaked out instead of thought things out.
The biggest lesson Bob and I took away is that while most people are gentlemen and just apply simple logic, we can't rely on EVERYONE to be gentlemen on the tables, especially when tourneys, prizes, etc. become a factor. Most of the comments here are along the lines of NC's are limited by the players themselves. If players are deciding themselves to limit a weapon system, that either means its broken, its too cheap or too easy to have. Changing the mechanic (broken) or price (too cheap) is more difficult to do at this juncture than simply limiting it (too easy to have) in a fleet.
And yet I have not seen an all NC fleet win any tourneys. Have you? People are limiting the weapon not because it's overpowered but because other players think it's overpowered when clearly it is not broken. Other players will then think badly of the NC toting player instead of just learning to deal with it.
As many here have attested, the all NC list is not broken. Cheap is relative since only one list can reall y spam it and since it is relative, easy access is as well. You don't need to change the mechanic esp since it is broken in the sense that it is an unreliable weapon and not an overpowering one. The price isn't cheap since 190 points isn't really cheap. The best thing you can do is LEAVE IT ALONE until you can come around to revising it which really shouldn't be difficult if you really wanted to change the mechanic.
Sigoroth brings up a good point- even without the NC, the Dominator is a pretty cool ship to have. This is something we will probably have to address separately. In the long term, the NC will probably need to be adjusted, because Sigoroth is also correct in saying that as time goes on this weapon will inevitably become more common, as was already happening during the Gothic War. Before we do ANYTHING like that, some more playtesting will have to be done. Stuff like this is why we're not rushing with teh 2010 Errata/FAQ. This way it can be right.
So do not rush into limiting the NC. You got your conclusions from one game which is not a true test of what is broken. Shame on the vet for doing so but it shouldn't have affected your decision. Until you can prove that the all NC fleet is really that dominating, you shouldn't put limits.
The point of coolness of the Dominator is besides the point. We are addressing the NC.
My son and I started our first all-NC test battle against Chaos last night and will be wrapping it up today. Anyone have any particular suggestions they would like to see in the Chaos test fleet for our second battle? I'd also like test fleet suggestions for Orks and Tau, which will be test battles #3 and 4. For sake of numbers, the 1500-point Imp fleet will consist of 5 Dominators and 2 Mars, only because 7 Dominators leaves me 170 points shy, which is too little to field an 8th NC ship under 1500 points in any case.
- Nate
Only one to two test battles per race? Play at least at least 6 games for each race. You take the all NC fleet in at least half and you go up against the all NC fleet in the other half. One off games are not indicative of the results.
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Tyrants ... blech! Anywho, again, as has been pointed out, the Chaos player made a lot of classic mistakes against the NC fleet. He allowed the NC to impact him psychologically, he had ordnance superiority yet failed to make his opponent come to him, he stayed in clear fire lines, avoiding terrain and used his AC poorly. All this while being in the best terrain for NC (ie, huge tables). However, I get the feeling you knew all this before anyone said anything anyway.
As for the test fleets, well you're right in that Tau and Orks are the most at risk to NCs. Orks tend to make use of the optional large base more than anyone else and their cruisers only have 1 shield. On top of this they have a lot of ships, which makes it easier for a scatter to be damaging. Tau Explorers have large bases, only 1 shield, can't afford to brace and represent a fair points investment, being the most expensive ships in the Tau fleet.
However, if you find that these fleets get pasted by all NC fleets, and you may, I don't think that tells us much about the balance of the NC. One reason for this is because the Orks are a very poor fleet, regardless of NC. You could take an all AC fleet against Orks and conclude that AC are too strong due to the result. Similarly you could take a fast and manoeuvrable fleet against Orks and conclude that this also needs nerfing after seeing the result. However, probably a better conclusion to all this is that Orks need help.
The Tau, on the other hand, are a strong fleet. So, if the NC performs well against this strong fleet then this means more than against the Orks, yes? Well, yes and no. On the face of it it does mean more. Because if this weapon can defeat a strong fleet then it must be stronger. That at least is the implication. However, in this case it's just that the NC is uniquely capable of taking advantage of the Tau weakness to a great degree. The Tau were only allowed to be so strong because they had such weaknesses. The NC is strong against these weaknesses, but it is not so strong when you take it up against different fleets. It's rather mediocre against Tyranids or Chaos, and distinctly poor against any form of Eldar. It could be great or useless against Necrons, depending wildly upon luck and whether the Necron player braces or can get the opportunity to go AAF to close.
So taking all NC to a tournament would be like taking all AC, or all WBs or all lances. An all WB fleet would be great up against Eldar, OK against Chaos, and rubbish against SM. An all NC fleet would be great against Tau, so-so against Chaos and rubbish against Eldar. All lances does well in some circumstances, rubbish in others, etc. If you don't have a versatile fleet then you face the possibility of running up against a hard counter. Similarly, a lot of fleets have a hard counter weapon system.
Agreed. I call a limit on the Explorer/Hero combo and only 3 Nightshades per 500pts....
Heh.
The biggest lesson Bob and I took away is that while most people are gentlemen and just apply simple logic, we can't rely on EVERYONE to be gentlemen on the tables, especially when tourneys, prizes, etc. become a factor. Most of the comments here are along the lines of NC's are limited by the players themselves. If players are deciding themselves to limit a weapon system, that either means its broken, its too cheap or too easy to have. Changing the mechanic (broken) or price (too cheap) is more difficult to do at this juncture than simply limiting it (too easy to have) in a fleet.
Hmm, I tend to be self-limiting with my NC selection but this is mainly because I don't see it as being a fantastic weapon. I much prefer having versatility in my fleet. Having some torp ships in a NC fleet is very useful and I also like Gothics as they're a great fleet support ship (you can't manoeuvre your entire fleet into optimal firing positions). So, I don't take pure NC fleets because I don't think they're that strong (any more). I'm not against playing against all NC fleets. If I'm playing one of my regular opponents then I don't give a rats arse about them and I'll take whatever fleet is legal, no matter how beardy. Just to grind them into the ground and point and laugh at them while I do. However, if I were playing a kid or a (non-regular) newbie I'd definitely not be so cut-throat. After all, there's no need to be. I'll win anyway, even if I try not to. Newbs are such newbs. In those games I'm more concerned with pointing out what he could've done instead so that he learns the intricacies and develops an interest. Still, I suppose others might limit themselves because they don't think it'd be fair to take all NCs, even against their regular opponents.
P.S. - Nate: I put each paragraph in its own color bracket, so you can break it up easier. Aren't I nice. Now do as I say. ;D
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Nate, I'd suggest this to play for chaos:
2x Carnage
2xDevastation
Planet Killer
3x infidel
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We have not yet run this by Ray. However, here's the line-item proposal for the 2010 FAQ:
No more than two Nova Cannon-equipped vessels may be taken for every 750 points or portion thereof in the fleet.
This means 4 are possible in 1000 points ? Or is the "two" a typo ^^
We go with one per 500 points in our group most of the time and that´s ok.
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Hi everyone! As the first Chaos test battle was underway since yesterday, I let my son use the fleet he wanted instead of using Horizon's fleet list suggestions, which we will use this weekend. Because a seven-Dominator Imperial fleet left me 170 points shy of 1500 points, two of them were swapped for Mars battlecruisers. Here's how the fleet list broke out (neither fleet had commanders, re-rolls, special bonuses, etc):
Imperials
Dominator x5 (no squadrons)
Mars x2 (single squadron)
Chaos
Executor
Acheron
Slaughter x3 (no squadrons)
Murder x2 (single squadron, one was lance variant)
Devastation
Iconoclast x3 (squadron)
Rolling randomly, we had two asteroid fields on his side of the table and three gas clouds on my side of the table. He used the asteroids to great effect, using his high-Ld ships like Eldar to navigate through them to keep pushing toward me while I couldn’t shoot at him with NC’s. His Slaughters skirted the asteroid field until they couldn’t hide behind them anymore, then instead of going around them to give me an extra turn with NC’s, he actually turned toward the field and then AAF’ed THROUGH it (ballsy!) to close the range. For this two of his three Slaughters failed the navigation Ld check against 3D6, but one took two hits and one only took one. He kept his Iconoclasts way out in front and spread far apart to force me to do Ld checks to ignore them, which proved successful in one instance.
My son is no noob- he’s been playing Chaos for the better part of ten years, and I have seen him routinely smoke grown adults. He is experienced playing against any fleet in general, and as Imperials are my favorite fleet, he is experienced against them in particular.
I would love to sit here and copy down a detailed BatRep from my notes, but that would be pointless. I completely wiped out his fleet, leaving only one capital ship alive but crippled (the all-gun Murder), though admittedly one of his Iconoclasts survived as well. In exchange, he crippled ONE of my Dominators, another took two hits and the rest of my fleet was untouched. As a Chaos player he said afterward the rule needs to be one NC for 500 points, but I said we would not be restricting it that much even if we did so.
Taking a look at the Chaos fleet lists recommended here, is this the way we want to go? I spend a lot of time prow-on and closing. Closing lances would probably be the best bet against my favored strategy so I think we will do the next test battle with Chaos fleet #2:
1x Styx + 2x Devestation
1x Hades + 3x Murder
Any objections?
Regardless of the outcome, I will provide a more detailed BatRep tomorrow. My son likes this fleet list, by the way.
Admiral, we are not going to rush into this decision. Frankly, there is no rush, and we are NOT basing this on one test battle or one bad report at a single game store. We can and will test this again and again before any call is made, and I can take this over to Campaign HQ (now Atlantis Comics) in Norfolk this weekend and throw other players besides my son against my all-NC fleet to see how it goes.
- Nate
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However, if you find that these fleets get pasted by all NC fleets, and you may, I don't think that tells us much about the balance of the NC. One reason for this is because the Orks are a very poor fleet, regardless of NC. You could take an all AC fleet against Orks and conclude that AC are too strong due to the result. Similarly you could take a fast and manoeuvrable fleet against Orks and conclude that this also needs nerfing after seeing the result. However, probably a better conclusion to all this is that Orks need help.
Hi Sigoroth! You are right- Orks need some more tweaks, keeping in mind they are SUPPOSED to be the bottom-deck fleet of the game so the tweaks will consist primarily of how players can tailor their ships if desired. We have to be REALLY careful as to how we decide to make Orks better. We do NOT want to incorporate yet another odd, race specific mechanic, such as re-writing all the profiles to give them more guns but make them worse against the gunnery chart, which in most aspects has a net effect of zero.
The Tau, on the other hand, are a strong fleet. So, if the NC performs well against this strong fleet then this means more than against the Orks, yes? Well, yes and no. On the face of it it does mean more. Because if this weapon can defeat a strong fleet then it must be stronger. That at least is the implication. However, in this case it's just that the NC is uniquely capable of taking advantage of the Tau weakness to a great degree. The Tau were only allowed to be so strong because they had such weaknesses. The NC is strong against these weaknesses, but it is not so strong when you take it up against different fleets. It's rather mediocre against Tyranids or Chaos, and distinctly poor against any form of Eldar. It could be great or useless against Necrons, depending wildly upon luck and whether the Necron player braces or can get the opportunity to go AAF to close.
Agreed. If we try too hard to make every fleet exactly equal to everyone else, then in the end there is no variety at all, and one strategy set will work the same for and against every fleet. Tau are a great fleet with specific weaknesses because the GW fleet is basically enormous re-packaged merchant ships, and the FW fleet consist of true warships that are better than Orks but not as good as Imps/Chaos.
So taking all NC to a tournament would be like taking all AC, or all WBs or all lances. An all WB fleet would be great up against Eldar, OK against Chaos, and rubbish against SM. An all NC fleet would be great against Tau, so-so against Chaos and rubbish against Eldar. All lances does well in some circumstances, rubbish in others, etc. If you don't have a versatile fleet then you face the possibility of running up against a hard counter. Similarly, a lot of fleets have a hard counter weapon system.
Agreed. I call a limit on the Explorer/Hero combo and only 3 Nightshades per 500pts....
Heh.
The biggest lesson Bob and I took away is that while most people are gentlemen and just apply simple logic, we can't rely on EVERYONE to be gentlemen on the tables, especially when tourneys, prizes, etc. become a factor. Most of the comments here are along the lines of NC's are limited by the players themselves. If players are deciding themselves to limit a weapon system, that either means its broken, its too cheap or too easy to have. Changing the mechanic (broken) or price (too cheap) is more difficult to do at this juncture than simply limiting it (too easy to have) in a fleet.
Hmm, I tend to be self-limiting with my NC selection but this is mainly because I don't see it as being a fantastic weapon. I much prefer having versatility in my fleet. Having some torp ships in a NC fleet is very useful and I also like Gothics as they're a great fleet support ship (you can't manoeuvre your entire fleet into optimal firing positions). So, I don't take pure NC fleets because I don't think they're that strong (any more). I'm not against playing against all NC fleets. If I'm playing one of my regular opponents then I don't give a rats arse about them and I'll take whatever fleet is legal, no matter how beardy. Just to grind them into the ground and point and laugh at them while I do. However, if I were playing a kid or a (non-regular) newbie I'd definitely not be so cut-throat. After all, there's no need to be. I'll win anyway, even if I try not to. Newbs are such newbs. In those games I'm more concerned with pointing out what he could've done instead so that he learns the intricacies and develops an interest. Still, I suppose others might limit themselves because they don't think it'd be fair to take all NCs, even against their regular opponents.
I agree with you. Like you, I prefer a variety in my fleet (especially in tournaments!) I know how to counter beardy players and tactics as well, but everyone knows you can’t expect a new player to be able to do this. My point is that I’m really worried about a weapon system that requires experienced players to overcome when used en-masse or requires gentlemen’s agreements to keep it self-limiting. An all-gun fleet is really powerful against Eldar, but even Eldar won’t get completely wasted playing an all-guns fleet (not to mention Eldar are a difficult fleet for new players to use in the first place, but that’s another post). SM’s will fare poorly against an all-lance fleet but won’t get annihilated against a squad of Gothics.
Here’s what I saw today. My son is an ECXCELLENT Chaos player. He used brilliant tactics, some of which I wouldn’t have thought of using myself, such as going AAF through an asteroid field with Slaughters because they happened to have high Ld. He played brilliantly and still got pasted. It will take a number of playtest games and detailed BatReps. To know which way we need to go one way or the other, but relying on players to be grownups is sadly not a viable plan of action, as much as it should be! :-[
P.S. - Nate: I put each paragraph in its own color bracket, so you can break it up easier. Aren't I nice. Now do as I say. ;D
I appreciate it- thanks!! :D
- Nate
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I really like how this conversation has evolved. Great work Nate on starting a diverse set of play test. But you've slightly skewed the data by not taking a commander, thus allowing you twice the AC in a 7NC fleet. I think you should immediately change this in your playtest to proper reflect the fact no one could legally use the above fleet.
I wish I had more local people to get some test games in. I have no doubt that your son is a seasoned commander and from the sound of it he plays a pretty tactically thoughtful and entertaining game. Even a brilliant commander will have a hard time without the proper tools! I see three issues with the first Chaos fleet the two of you tested ( some of the suggested fleets address various aspects) and would encourage you to craft a few more fleets with these things in mind. I don't believe any of my issues would necessarily "tailor" the fleet.
First, the Slaughters. When I face 4 Novas at 1250 / 1500 I have a single purpose, close as fast as possible and cripple each ship as quickly as possible. I really think they should be paired and squadroned. The idea is to pick on a single target to increase your odds of a single turn cripple or brace. Once accomplished you move on to the next ship. Actually, you should try an all Slaughter fleet against your all Dominator fleet just to see what happens.
Next, it lacks a proper balance of AC. Even if this fleet had just one more Devastation, you would have a fair amount of AC to create more targets for the opponent. If he doesn't spend a NC to deal with them then great. If he wastes a NC shot to clear them, great!
Lastly, the fleet has no Fire Magnet ( a ship with 4 shields ). It's sole purpose is to take a serious beating so the rest of your fleet can swarm in. You know exactly what happens when the opponent doesn't chose to deal with that ship!
I like the fleet suggestion that Vaaish posted. It's a good test of 2 of my above points. But it is tailored and I think the Planet Killer might sacrifice to many points. By the way, it sounds like your son's use of the Iconoclasts was brilliant. I think the below fleet would be my starting point:
Commander 8Ld
1 Desolator
2x Slaughter
2x Slaughter
2x Dev
3x Iconoclast
If your'e doing no commanders then I guess you could exchange the Icos for Infidels.
Russ
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I really like how this conversation has evolved. Great work Nate on starting a diverse set of play test. But you've slightly skewed the data by not taking a commander, thus allowing you twice the AC in a 7NC fleet. I think you should immediately change this in your playtest to proper reflect the fact no one could legally use the above fleet.
I wish I had more local people to get some test games in. I have no doubt that your son is a seasoned commander and from the sound of it he plays a pretty tactically thoughtful and entertaining game. Even a brilliant commander will have a hard time without the proper tools! I see three issues with the first Chaos fleet the two of you tested ( some of the suggested fleets address various aspects) and would encourage you to craft a few more fleets with these things in mind. I don't believe any of my issues would necessarily "tailor" the fleet.
First, the Slaughters. When I face 4 Novas at 1250 / 1500 I have a single purpose, close as fast as possible and cripple each ship as quickly as possible. I really think they should be paired and squadroned. The idea is to pick on a single target to increase your odds of a single turn cripple or brace. Once accomplished you move on to the next ship. Actually, you should try an all Slaughter fleet against your all Dominator fleet just to see what happens.
Next, it lacks a proper balance of AC. Even if this fleet had just one more Devastation, you would have a fair amount of AC to create more targets for the opponent. If he doesn't spend a NC to deal with them then great. If he wastes a NC shot to clear them, great!
Lastly, the fleet has no Fire Magnet ( a ship with 4 shields ). It's sole purpose is to take a serious beating so the rest of your fleet can swarm in. You know exactly what happens when the opponent doesn't chose to deal with that ship!
I like the fleet suggestion that Vaaish posted. It's a good test of 2 of my above points. But it is tailored and I think the Planet Killer might sacrifice to many points. By the way, it sounds like your son's use of the Iconoclasts was brilliant. I think the below fleet would be my starting point:
Commander 8Ld
1 Desolator
2x Slaughter
2x Slaughter
2x Dev
3x Iconoclast
If your'e doing no commanders then I guess you could exchange the Icos for Infidels.
Russ
My son and I both decided to max out on ships for this playtest, buut you make a valid point that technically the fleets were illegal. I will bring this up with him and see what route he wants to go. I can trade out a Mars for another Dominator to buy a Commander, though I will probably have to proxy it with a Lunar- 5 Dominators is all I have built, and two of those were only drybrushed! (Playing with unfinished models is a personal peeve of mine- sorry.)
I'll ask him about your proposed Slaughter-fat fleet list (we have the models to do it), but I know he was unhappy about how dodging and closing as fast as possible didn't help him against massed NC's and he wanted to see if massed AC can somehow negate the NC's reach to an extent. I'll still have one Mars, and he's talking about wanting 3x+ AC superiority for our next battle, which admittedly plays to Chaos's strength.
- Nate
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Painted models have better dice.
One question on your battle:
Table size and which scenario setup?
180cm x 120cm is the standard table size so should be used for testing.
Cruiser clash means fleets are "only" need to be apart a minimum of 60cm. One AAF of the Slaughters or any other Chaos ship would bring them under 30cm => Nova Cannon unable to fire.
Fleet Engagement is always interesting to play. Same goes to Escalating Engagement.
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Painted models have better dice.
One question on your battle:
Table size and which scenario setup?
180cm x 120cm is the standard table size so should be used for testing.
Cruiser clash means fleets are "only" need to be apart a minimum of 60cm. One AAF of the Slaughters or any other Chaos ship would bring them under 30cm => Nova Cannon unable to fire.
Fleet Engagement is always interesting to play. Same goes to Escalating Engagement.
My table is 145x145. Its the best I could do for fold-up tables (we use tw identical ones) that fit in my son's room so that's what we're using.
We always roll celestial phenomena randomly, but for the playtest we always play Cruiser Clash because other more detailed or restrictive scenarios may reveal/conceal specific strengths and shortcomings. Cruiser Clash is the plain-vanilla generic scenario of the game most suitable for playtesting, though for individual ships I normally use Gauntlet.
To simulate larger tables, we take advantage of the fact that while the fleets start across the table from each other, they don't necessarily have to start directly perpendicular to each other. In the last playtest he got to set up the table so I got to pick the side to start from. I won the set-up roll and made him set up first. He set up on one far corner of his 90cm "pocket" because it gave him the longest time hidden by asteroids so he could get AC in space and not take NC rounds immediately. I set up on the opposite far corner of my 90cm "pocket" to give me as many turns as possible getting NC rounds downrange once he finally peeked out of the rocks. While these were the specifics, we did not in any way set up differently than as described for Cruiser Clash.
I will say that by the time he actually came out of the rocks, he was in all but two cases less than 60cm away. Unfortunately, all that did was make my NC's that much more accurate. Also, having almost half his fleet made up of Slaughters that he pushed far ahead meant that he came at me in two waves, allowing me to concentrate my fire on the Slaughters until they were dead, then do the same trick to the Murders and Executor that came up behind. He recognized himself and said that his biggest tactical error was getting so focused on closing the distance that he let his fleet get split in two and defeated in detail.
- Nate
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hell, two waves are fatal in open space against Nova Cannons, PLUS the fact that Slaughters tend by them selves to leave behind the rest of the fleet, player must pay attention for this if it's not part of a bigger plan...
Ok for make as many AC as you can, but you have to run all together to the NC's ships at all cost, that is the first thing (if in open space)
I recently saw a battle of chaos against IN with 4 NC:
-First IN turn: move on, can't shot because chaos deployed under coverage
-First chaos turn: AAF
-Second IN turn: it's the first and unique turn when all his NC have shot (one chaos ship take a direct hit, 1 shield down)
-Second chaos turn: Lock On and an IN's NC ship is reduced to a hulk (2 damages with the D3 critic)
from now on, only one NC has shot one hit in the whole game.
Result: IN lost three cruisers and the battleship (Apocalypse), the chaos player lost the Desolator thanks to IN's wb (due to a tactical error).
I mean: chaos had to suffer the first turn (AAF) to reach the enemy, and then fire!
IN took advantage of only one NC turn and then payed the loss of having not a frontal weapon for close combat
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Chaos fleet 2:
1x Styx + 2x Devestation
1x Hades + 3x Murder
We couldn't find anyone to play BFG in the game store today, so this is the second play-test fleet my son and I are playing, based on the fleet you picked out. Here's what he added to make the point total for this play-test:
add:
1 Idolator & 1 Iconoclast
50-point Chaos Warmaster w/1RR
Total: 1490 points
Imperial fleet:
50-point Fleet Admiral w/1RR
Mars
3x Dominator
3x Lunar w/NC (each is only +10 points over a Dominator and I needed to fill points)
Total: 1490 points
Ironically, I had to proxy a third NC lunar with one armed with torps because of all my Lunars (7 of them), only two have NC's.
I'll let you know how it all goes by sometime tomorrow night, complete with a detailed BatRep.
- Nate
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nate, your at 1515 with that extra RR....
so:
admiral + RR (75)
1 mars w/ matrix
6 dominators
= 1500
...unless of course you want those silly lances...
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What are your gaming tables? I think you guys mostly don't care about NC limitation because, as far as I understand, you are playing mainly on 120x120 tables. Generaly you only have 1 turn of NC shooting and then oppenent goes lock-on
We play mostly on 120x180 tables as it was suggested in Bluebook and NC is much more deadly at this range.
I think the rules should consider as many table variants as possible, also think about missions like exterminatus - an attacker has to pass a very large distance while defender can just stay still within the gravity well and fire as many NC as he likes for at least 3 turns.
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120cm x 180cm
Play all the scenarios to determine Nova effectiveness. :)
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What are your gaming tables? I think you guys mostly don't care about NC limitation because, as far as I understand, you are playing mainly on 120x120 tables. Generaly you only have 1 turn of NC shooting and then oppenent goes lock-on
We play mostly on 120x180 tables as it was suggested in Bluebook and NC is much more deadly at this range.
I think the rules should consider as many table variants as possible, also think about missions like exterminatus - an attacker has to pass a very large distance while defender can just stay still within the gravity well and fire as many NC as he likes for at least 3 turns.
Well there's practically no difference between 4' x 4' tables and 4' x 6' tables. This is because even when on 4' x 6' tables you usually deploy on opposite long edges.
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Well there's practically no difference between 4' x 4' tables and 4' x 6' tables. This is because even when on 4' x 6' tables you usually deploy on opposite long edges
You said it yourself: sometimes yes, sometimes no. The part with somtimes no is the one i am worried about ))
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What
You said it yourself: sometimes yes, sometimes no. The part with somtimes no is the one i am worried about ))
What?
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What are your gaming tables? I think you guys mostly don't care about NC limitation because, as far as I understand, you are playing mainly on 120x120 tables. Generaly you only have 1 turn of NC shooting and then oppenent goes lock-on
We play mostly on 120x180 tables as it was suggested in Bluebook and NC is much more deadly at this range.
I think the rules should consider as many table variants as possible, also think about missions like exterminatus - an attacker has to pass a very large distance while defender can just stay still within the gravity well and fire as many NC as he likes for at least 3 turns.
I play on a 120x180 and don't care about the limitation. But, I've never gone up against 7 NCs in 1500, just 4.
Russ
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Hi all! We finally got another all-Nova Cannon fleet play-test battle done! Here's the results of play test #2, complete with battle report. For the record, the table this was played on is 140cmx140cm. It’s an odd size, but that’s what I have. The scenario was Cruiser Clash, set-up exactly as described in the rulebook. Celestial Phenomena was for Primary Biosphere as follows:
<- Chaos Edge
1 2 3
Sun edge
4 5 6
Imperial Edge ->
2: small planet
3: asteroid field
5: three gas clouds
6: moon
Imperial Fleet:
Imperious (Mars), Ld8, Fleet Admiral w/re-roll
Minotaur (Lunar/NC) Ld8, Squad 1
Cardinal Demos (Dominator) Ld9, Squad 1
Cardinal Haynes (Dominator) Ld6, Squad 1
Caridad Divina (Lunar/NC) Ld7, Squad 2
Tyrant Adamantine (Dominator) Ld9, Squad 2
Rogue Argenis Vigor (Dominator) Ld8, Squad 2
Total: 1480 points
Chaos Fleet:
Soul Thief (Styx), Ld8, Chaos Lord w/re-roll
Dangerous Wind (Devastation), Ld7, Squad 1
Deathbane (Devastation), Ld9, Squad 1
Revolution (Murder), Ld7, Squad 2
Internecivus (Murder), Ld8, Squad 2
Queen’s Consort (Murder/lance variant), Ld7, Squad 3
Malignus Maximus (Hades), Ld9, Squad 3
Destructors (2x Infidel), Ld7
Total: 1485 points
Chaos wins roll to elect set up and also goes first
TURN ONE
Chaos uses small planet to turn entire fleet 90 degrees, and the three escorts move full distance to force Imperials to do leadership checks to ignore them. Squads 2 & 3 move as far forward as possible to close the distance. Squad 1 and Styx hide behind the moon and launch ordnance waves.
Imperial fleet turns in tight formation to go line-abreast. All ships pass Ld check to ignore closest targets. Squad 1 targets Malignus Maximus with three Nova Cannon, which braces. NC#1 misses but drifts into Styx attack craft wave, taking out two markers. NC#2 gets dead-on hit but only drops both shields, NC#3 misses completely. Squad 2 targets Revolution with three Nova Cannon, which braces. NC#1 misses but drifts into entire attack craft wave, destroying it. NC#2 misses but drifts between Malignus Maximus (scoring 1HP) and Internecivus (dropping 1 shield). NC#3 misses but drifts into Queen’s Consort, dropping 1 shield. Imperious NC targets Malignus Maximus but misses completely. Imperious launches 4 fighters, which push forward to meet remaining Chaos attack craft waves.
TURN TWO
Styx and Devastations go All Ahead Full to catch up with Chaos fleet, using moon to steer behind and abeam Chaos gun line, but they gent unexpectedly high AAF rolls and end up virtually beside the rest of the Chaos fleet and clustered too close to it. Chaos gun line staggers into echelon formation so drifting Nova Cannon shots are only effective in a single direction, but as a consequence they risk having the Imperials cross the T when the fleets meet. Gun line prow lances only reach Imperial fighters, but multiple shots only take out one marker. Infidels launch torpedoes to harass fleet even though out of effective range; Imp fighters know fleet is prow-on and maneuver to ignore them.
Mars reloads ordnance, Imperial fleet pushes forward line-abreast 10cm, all ships pass Ld checks to ignore closest target. Squad 1 fires three Nova Cannon at Queen’s Consort, which braces. NC#1 gets dead-on hit rolling 4, dropping shields with 1 un-braced hit causing Fire critical. NC#2 misses but drifts into Soul Thief rolling 5, dropping shields and causing 3HP including Bulkhead Collapse critical +2HP to cripple ship! NC#3 misses completely. Squad 2 fires three Nova Cannon at Dangerous Wind, which fails to brace. NC#1 misses but drifts into Malignus Maximus rolling 5. It was already braced (squad with Queen’s Consort), it drops shields and braces one hit to take 2HP and Thrusters critical +1HP. NC#2 misses completely. NC#3 misses completely. Imperious fires NC at Soul Thief, which misses but drifts into Revolution, dropping both shields. Imperious dorsal lances score two hits on Revolution, including Fire critical. Both Infidel torpedo salvoes reach Argenis Vigor, causing 1HP damage. Chaos ordnance waves continue to move forward. In end phase, Revolution puts out Fire, and Malignus Maximus repairs Thrusters with 1D6!
TURN THREE
Devastations fail Reload Ordnance special order. Chaos fleet continues moving forward as a group to try and close distance, with Infidels remaining in front. Escorts shoot first, missing Minotaur. Chaos strategy is to cripple it before shifting fire to another target. Imperial strategy is to stick it out and avoid losing three Nova Cannon to a BFI special order. Squad 2 shoots at Minotaur, which refuses to brace and ends up only losing one shield (along with Cardinal Haynes in base contact). Squad 3 shoots at Minotaur, dropping second shield and causing 1HP (Cardinal Haynes gets second BM as well). Soul Thief shoots at Minotaur for 1HP, it still won’t brace. Squad 3 fires long-range lances at Minotaur, and it takes only one more HP. Because bomber waves still can’t reach Imperial line but can get right in front of it, they position themselves so that the only damaged Imperial ships can’t maneuver without catching both waves. Fighters pull out of wave to chop down massed CAP, reducing total effectiveness for chance at one good bomb run. Remaining Imperial attack separate waves to bring down strength of any one wave.
Adamantine moves first to take both bomber waves, it ends up taking no damage! The rest of Imperial fleet moves forward in a shallow wedge, with intent of putting damaged ships to rear, but Minotaur ends up on leading edge because it is the only way to get it in range of desired targets. Fleet moves to put Infidels 29cm away so that even a failed leadership check allows them to ignore escorts. The tactic works- Squad 1 fails to ignore closest targets and fires three Nova Cannon on Internecivus, which braces. NC#1 drifts but drops a shield. NC#2 gets dead-on hit rolling 2, causing 1HP. NC#3 drifts so that very edge touches base to cause 1HP but hole gets dead-on hit rolling 6 on Queen’s Consort, causing 4HP along with Fire and Engine Room (+1HP) criticals. Squad 2 passes Ld check to ignore closer and fires three Nova Cannon on Soul Thief, which braces. NC#1 gets dead-on hit rolling 5. All brace rolls fail and Soul Thief dies a blazing hulk! NC#2 shifts to Deathbane, which refuses to brace and gets dead-on hit rolling 3, dropping shields and taking 1HP. NC#3 misses completely. Imperious Nova Cannon fires on Internecivus, getting dead-on hit rolling 3 to cripple ship, which braces 1 to take 2HP and cause Prow critical. Imperious lances score one more HP on Internecivus (fails brace roll again). Imperious launches 4 fighters which take up CAP. Chaos repairs all critical damage again!
TURN FOUR
AGAIN Devastations fail Reload Ordnance special order, and with Styx dead their re-roll is lost. Infidels move full distance to get behind Imperial fleet and turn abeam to target Minotaur at point-blank. Soul Thief blazing hulk only moves a short distance, then goes catastrophic with an 18cm blast radius, catching entire Chaos fleet except escorts! Queen’s Consort and Dangerous Wind both take 1HP, the rest of the fleet emerges unscathed but are awash in blast markers. Chaos fleet moves to catch half of the Imperial line with their broadsides and the other half with their prows. Entire fleet concentrates prow fire on Minotaur, which refuses to brace. Broadsides concentrate on Adamantine, which also refuses to brace. Minotaur dies a drifting hulk, and remaining fire shifts to Cardinal Demos, which takes 2HP damage. Adamantine loses shields but takes no damage.
Squad 1 attempts to Lock-On but fails special order AND re-roll! With both fleets in knife-fight range now, Imperial fleet maneuvers to get broadsides on part of fleet and Nova Cannon at minimum range on stragglers. Unfortunately, Minotaur hulk forces imperial fleet nearly on top of each other to make it happen, and fleet is in difficult maneuver position if unable to close the game in this turn. Squad 2 targets Deathbane with three Nova Cannon, which braces. NC#1 gets dead-on hit but only rolls 1 to drop a shield. NC#2 gets dead-on hit rolling 4 for 3HP (al brace rolls fail) as well as Shields Collapsed and Bridge Smashed criticals! NC#3 scores dead-on hit rolling 6! Three brace rolls fail, and the ship takes 3HP and a Fire critical. Squad 1 targets Dangerous Wind with two Nova Cannon. NC#1 only drops a shield. NC#2 drifts only 2cm, rolling 4 for 2HP (two brace rolls fail). Imperious fires on Dangerous Wind, getting dead-on hit rolling 6. Three brace rolls fail, taking 3HP to die a drifting hulk! Squad 2 fires broadsides on Revolution scoring 6 hits, with three brace rolls failing for 3HP, crippling it. Squad 1 fires broadsides on Internecivus for 4 hits, with two brace rolls failing for 2HP and an Engine critical (+1HP), dying a drifting hulk. Internecivus and Minotaur hulks block Imperious batteries, but dorsal lances score 1HP on Revolution (fails to brace). Deathbane takes 1HP damage from not repairing Fire.
At this point we stopped the game. Here was the tally at this point:
Imperial Fleet:
Imperious (Mars), Ld8, Fleet Admiral w/re-roll UNDAMAGED
Minotaur (Lunar/NC) Ld8, Squad 1 DESTROYED
Cardinal Demos (Dominator) Ld9, Squad 1 UNDAMAGED
Cardinal Haynes (Dominator) Ld6, Squad 1 2HP Damage
Caridad Divina (Lunar/NC) Ld7, Squad 2 UNDAMAGED
Tyrant Adamantine (Dominator) Ld9, Squad 2 UNDAMAGED
Rogue Argenis Vigor (Dominator) Ld8, Squad 2 1HP Damage
Total: 1480 points
Chaos Fleet:
Soul Thief (Styx), Ld8, Chaos Lord w/re-roll DESTROYED
Dangerous Wind (Devastation), Ld7, Squad 1 DESTROYED
Deathbane (Devastation), Ld9, Squad 1 7HP Damage/FIRE
Revolution (Murder), Ld7, Squad 2 6HP Damage
Internecivus (Murder), Ld8, Squad 2 DESTROYED
Queen’s Consort (Murder/lance variant), Ld7, Squad 3 6HP Damage
Malignus Maximus (Hades), Ld9, Squad 3 6HP Damage
Destructors (2x Infidel), Ld7 UNDAMAGED
Total: 1485 points
Keep in mind that the scenario played was Cruiser Clash, where the fleets can’t start any farther than 90cm apart (60cm plus any slant range induced by set-up). This does NOT take into account scenarios like Planetary Assault that entail much longer treks across the table, nor does this account for how a 140cm x 14cm table is a bit on the small side as far as gaming tables go.
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I do not get this at all. This whole battlereport.
1) Scattering Nova's on ordnace waves: why does this never happen with or against me. I mean.... your scatters are good. Do you have a legit dice. ;)
Your other scatters were also spot on.
2) cruiser clash = ships pointing at eachother. Why did Chaos not move forward with Hades/Murder/Murder/Murder in turn 1 to get into 60cm (should be easy enough), have lock on and fire 10 lances into the IN fleet?
Note: when in a squadron you can only target at the closest ship. So I believe you cannot aim the Nova Cannon at a ship in a squadron not being closest. So was the Soul Thief closest target in squadron or not?
Conclusion from what I get: Chaos did not apply correct tactics. Your scatters where many times spot on. Chaos keeps it ships to close together.
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To add:
table 120cm width. Minimum distance 60cm between fleets.
Chaos should deploy on edge: Furthest away IN could do is table edge.
Distance will be 90cm.
Chaos on normal movement would end up at 65cm. Asume no all ahead full which would bring Chaos certainly within 60cm and makes lances of Murders-Hades-Styx in effect.
IN moves forward 10cm, shoots Nova Cannons. & Mars lances. With or without turning.
distance 55cm.
Chaos moves normal speed, locked on or not. Depends,
25cm speed: Range = 30cm. All guns.
Under 30cm : IN cannot fire NC.
So against me you would have had a maximum of 2 rounds of NC fire. At max!
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Lessons Learned:
This is the second battle in a row where an all-NC Imperial fleet mauled a Chaos fleet in short order. Taken in sum, I believe the Chaos tactics were as effective as they could have been under the circumstances. Murders and Hades when used together bring a lot of prow-on firepower at long range when closing as quickly as they can against an NC-heavy Imperial fleet, and the Devastations and Styx maneuvered to their strengths, maneuvering to flank the Imperial fleet around the Murder/Hades gun-line. The Imperial strategy is simple: pick a ship and nail on it until it either braces or is crippled, then move to the next one.
I have heard several arguments AGAINST placing a numerical restriction on Nova Cannons. While some arguments have been more eloquent than others, the best argument I have heard so far goes something like this: Nova Cannon were relatively new and rare to Segmentum Obscuras in the beginning of M41, but by the end of the Gothic War, a number of ships across various classes were already re-fitted with this weapon. Fast-forward the better part of a thousand years to the 13th Black Crusade, and its a safe bet taht the number of Nova Cannons in the fleet is significantly larger, enough so that while an all-NC fleet is not likely, it certainly isn't implausible. This doesn't take into account that Ultima Segmentum fleets will have proportionately more, as the Nova Cannon design originated at Kar Durniash, and they have been equipping their vessels with this weapon for a corespondingly longer period of time.
So what is our solution set? The easy fix is to limit this weapon, with one per 750 points proving to be about the best mix. However, if we want to remain fluff true and don’t mind giving players all-Nova Cannon fleets (tactically unsound in my mind, but I don’t speak for the entire community), this weapon needs to be adjusted. Here’s what I’m thinking:
1. Two Nova Cannon per 750 points and screw the fluff.
2. Unlimited Nova Cannon, but reduce the to-hit roll to D3 vice D6, increase accuracy >60cm to 2D6cm vice 3D6cm
3. Unlimited Nova Cannon, leave the to-hit roll as-is but make the Nova Cannon shot hit count when the hole touches the stem instead of merely the base.
Incidentally, #3 was my son’s idea. He by the way is the Chaos nut that watch all-NC fleets shred his ships to ribbons two test battles in a row, and he is one of the best Chaos players I know (Ray Bell can attest to his ability). He agrees with the argument that no weapon system (including Nova Cannon) should be ship-limited and that the rules for it should be fixed instead. He also observed that option #3 places battleships and cruisers in the same category instead of making ships with large bases NC-sponges.
Thoughts?
- Nate
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Thoughts?
Given in posts above.
I am not downplaying your sons skills but from what I read he did not apply the right tactics.
In the second post I give the setup example.
And from the first post I have an unanswered question (Soul Thief).
Also: your scatters were insane.
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Totally against the options you presented for changing the NC. This was discussed not long ago and at some length with Ray in this thread:
http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/forum/index.php?topic=845.0
most of these ideas I believe were covered there.
To summarize though:
Option 1: encourages more NC to make up for pathetic damage and makes it worthless psychologically since the most you will ever have happen is one hull hit. Also makes it worthless against BB.
Option 2: greatly decreases the already low odds of anything outside of 1bm on a scatter which makes the scatter somewhat useless.
Reading through the report, seriously, that is an insane amount of scattering onto targets. I've never had it scatter onto anything when it misses except one of my own ships once.
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This latest batt-rep is enough to convince me that no NC limit is needed.
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This latest batt-rep is enough to convince me that no NC limit is needed.
haha, lol
Quoted for truth.
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This latest batt-rep is enough to convince me that no NC limit is needed.
haha, lol
Quoted for truth.
+2
Cheers, Gary
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Tactics for that kind of Chaos fleet:
1. Chaos gunships first turn goes AAF to close with IN fleet.
2. Chaos carriers launch bombers. Lots of them.
3. Chaos shouldn't brace. If a hit is rolled, a hit is rolled.
4. Turn 2, Chaos LOs and starts shooting the lights out of the NCs.
5. Bombers should now be attacking the IN ships. Chaos carriers RO and shoot their lances at damaged IN ships.
6. Chaos ships should not brace again.
7. Turn 3. Chaos ships LO, move minimal speed and start using their broadsides against the IN fleet. Most likely crippling or destroying a lot of the IN ships.
That's what you should be doing Nate.
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Tactics for that kind of Chaos fleet:
1. Chaos gunships first turn goes AAF to close with IN fleet.
2. Chaos carriers launch bombers. Lots of them.
3. Chaos shouldn't brace. If a hit is rolled, a hit is rolled.
4. Turn 2, Chaos LOs and starts shooting the lights out of the NCs.
5. Bombers should now be attacking the IN ships. Chaos carriers RO and shoot their lances at damaged IN ships.
6. Chaos ships should not brace again.
7. Turn 3. Chaos ships LO, move minimal speed and start using their broadsides against the IN fleet. Most likely crippling or destroying a lot of the IN ships.
That's what you should be doing Nate.
Agreed, the way of dying against NCs is being scared of them and putting your tail between your legs. Remember, NCs are just as afraid of you as you are of them, (just like rattlesnakes, except longer ranged?) so the strategy is to have balls and 'murder' them ;)
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The Carriers can also go AAF first turn. They are already loaded and AAF does not reduce ordnance.
At a starting distance of 90cm, the IN should be struggling to get more than one shot off.
Turn one, Chaos AAFs an average 39cm, Imperials move forward 10, 90cm is now 41cm.
Imperials now have only 11cm to play with if they deployed the maximum distance away from the chaos fleet, and if Chaos goes first they aren't getting that second shot anyway. I honestly can't blieve in your battle report the Nova Cannons were still firing in turn four.
In addition, Chaos seemed to have luck that significantly deviated from expected, with Nova Cannons having good results even on scatter, ordnance waves being hit by NCs, Carriers failing to reload, and AC doing no damage against their target.
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I do not get this at all. This whole battlereport.
1) Scattering Nova's on ordnace waves: why does this never happen with or against me. I mean.... your scatters are good. Do you have a legit dice. ;)
Your other scatters were also spot on.
Actually, with 7 NC shots over three turns of effective NC shooting, only ONE NC round drifted into an entire ordnance wave. Another drifted into the edge of a Styx wave, removing 2 of 6 markers so it wasn’t a lot of impact. On the other hand, his reload rolls were terrible, and his one really effective bomber run ended up doing nothing thanks to CAP sniping, effective massed turrets and really bad bomb runs.
2) cruiser clash = ships pointing at eachother. Why did Chaos not move forward with Hades/Murder/Murder/Murder in turn 1 to get into 60cm (should be easy enough), have lock on and fire 10 lances into the IN fleet?
There’s no way he could have done this, as the table is 140cm wide. Even with a 90cm-wide deployment area with no more than 60cm separation between deployment areas, which we carefully measured out, that gave me 40cm of depth and 45cm of slant range to play with, which I used to maximum effect.
He deployed his fleet brilliantly. He set up less than 10cm from his minimum depth (about 35cm away from his edge), and that was only so he could set up behind a small moon to use it as a free pivot to slingshot his entire fleet directly at me. I on the other hand set up my fleet line-abreast in the very far left corner of my deployment area. We didn't measure the starting distances, but from the way we set up and looking at the distances involved, there’s no way he could have been any closer than 100cm from me, and slant range probably made this a bit longer.
Note: when in a squadron you can only target at the closest ship. So I believe you cannot aim the Nova Cannon at a ship in a squadron not being closest. So was the Soul Thief closest target in squadron or not?
You are absolutely right- even Nova Cannon cannot pick targets out of a squadron unless they drift into them. As listed in the battle report, the Soul Thief was not in a squadron. The two Devastations were in a squadron, and he didn't want to squad all three of his carriers together in case he had to brace them. Unfortunately, that made it easier for me to pick it out.
Conclusion from what I get: Chaos did not apply correct tactics. Your scatters where many times spot on. Chaos keeps it ships to close together.
My scatter rolls aren’t bad Chaos tactics. Incidentally, I did’t find my scatter rools to be all that unusual- the BatRep indicates a number of shots that missed entirely, even as the range closed. He did try to keep his ships far apart. On that note, the one time his ships got too clustered together was when his carrier AAF roll was ridiculously large and neatly interlaced his carriers right into the gaps of his gun line. He tried to fix this in his next turn, but that was the turn I did the most damage to his fleet.
To add:
table 120cm width. Minimum distance 60cm between fleets.
Chaos should deploy on edge: Furthest away IN could do is table edge.
Distance will be 90cm.
It was actually more than 100cm, as my table is 140cm wide (square).
Chaos on normal movement would end up at 65cm. Asume no all ahead full which would bring Chaos certainly within 60cm and makes lances of Murders-Hades-Styx in effect.
IN moves forward 10cm, shoots Nova Cannons. & Mars lances. With or without turning.
distance 55cm.
Minimum move accounting for slant range gave me an effective approach speed of roughly 7cm after the first turn. After my first move, I turned the whole fleet line-abreast 45 degrees and kept it there, tweaking direction just enough to keep his gun line in the edge of my prow arc. Being a math nerd is great stuff! Don’t feel bad for my son- he’s a math nerd too! :)
Chaos moves normal speed, locked on or not. Depends,
25cm speed: Range = 30cm. All guns.
Under 30cm : IN cannot fire NC.
Right on all counts, but keep in mind once he started taking NC rounds, his actual speed was 20cm thanks to blast markers.
So against me you would have had a maximum of 2 rounds of NC fire. At max!
It actually turned into three rounds of fire taking all this into account. By turn 4, about half his fleet was too close to me to use NC’s on, which is why I was hitting him with my gun line. Granted, by turn 3 more than half his fleet was crippled while my fleet was virtually untouched except for one dead ship. Imperials trade range for weight of massed firepower, and Dominators in particular are perfect for this. Once the gun lines joined, it was all over. Sig’s right- the Dominator is an awesome boat.
- Nate
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Tactics for that kind of Chaos fleet:
1. Chaos gunships first turn goes AAF to close with IN fleet.
2. Chaos carriers launch bombers. Lots of them.
3. Chaos shouldn't brace. If a hit is rolled, a hit is rolled.
4. Turn 2, Chaos LOs and starts shooting the lights out of the NCs.
5. Bombers should now be attacking the IN ships. Chaos carriers RO and shoot their lances at damaged IN ships.
6. Chaos ships should not brace again.
7. Turn 3. Chaos ships LO, move minimal speed and start using their broadsides against the IN fleet. Most likely crippling or destroying a lot of the IN ships.
That's what you should be doing Nate.
Next time my son and I will re-play the entire battle, with an unchanged fleet and set-up. I'll have him use this guidance and see how it goes. He and I are always looking for excuses to play anyway! We will be travelling for Thanksgiving so this may take two weeks before we can get to it.
- Nate
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No Nate, you had more & better scatters in one game then in all my games with or against NC together. ;)
140cm?
That is 40-60-40
Chaos on edge
IN at back
Difference = 100cm.
Without AAF (which he should've done with all ships!).
75cm left.
IN moves 10cm minimum.
65cm left.
Turn 2:
Chaos moves (lockon) 25cm
distance left 40cm. (Move less desirable to avoid 30cm guns of IN if 45cm guns cannot get into play).
All without AAF.
:)
Which should be done in turn one.
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My scatter rolls aren’t bad Chaos tactics. Incidentally, I did’t find my scatter rools to be all that unusual- the BatRep indicates a number of shots that missed entirely, even as the range closed. He did try to keep his ships far apart. On that note, the one time his ships got too clustered together was when his carrier AAF roll was ridiculously large and neatly interlaced his carriers right into the gaps of his gun line. He tried to fix this in his next turn, but that was the turn I did the most damage to his fleet.
In all my time playing I have never seen a scatter score a direct hit on another vessel. I've seen a few edge hit scatters in crowded fleets. The amount of scatter hits you got was insane. The amount of brace saves he had was incredible. The fact that you destroyed 6 AC from scatters, the fact he failed to reload so many times and the ineffectual nature of his AC is likewise incredible. He may as well not have had any AC in that fleet.
Also, the only point of forming his fleet into squadrons as he did would be AAF. In which case it becomes imperative that you not brace. He formed squadrons and yet braced. This is a no-no. Squadron, AAF, run the gauntlet. Otherwise, go individual and brace as and when the need arises. Either way, you should not group up.
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I never brace against 1 NC but always brace against 2 NC.
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Too less AAf by the chaos player and NC still firing in turn four, this battle is umbelievable IMHO
Chaos going against a NC fleet with a formation so close? That is madness, no matter who did it (too much scatter have hit the ships, IF we want to believe the batrep...)
A scatter that makes a direct hit? The most polite thing that I have to say is that it is umbelievable
NC on a side, torpedoes on the other, let's say "bye bye" to the IN fleet
Nate, you saw a noob brutalized by Nova Cannons and you started your crusade, no matter what we think or what we say.
Read more carefully what people wrote, the totally of us is concordant:
about luck
Reading through the report, seriously, that is an insane amount of scattering onto targets. I've never had it scatter onto anything when it misses except one of my own ships once.
In addition, Chaos seemed to have luck that significantly deviated from expected, with Nova Cannons having good results even on scatter, ordnance waves being hit by NCs, Carriers failing to reload, and AC doing no damage against their target.
Nate, you had more & better scatters in one game then in all my games with or against NC together.
In all my time playing I have never seen a scatter score a direct hit on another vessel. I've seen a few edge hit scatters in crowded fleets. The amount of scatter hits you got was insane. The amount of brace saves he had was incredible. The fact that you destroyed 6 AC from scatters, the fact he failed to reload so many times and the ineffectual nature of his AC is likewise incredible. He may as well not have had any AC in that fleet.
about tactics
Tactics for that kind of Chaos fleet:
1. Chaos gunships first turn goes AAF to close with IN fleet.
2. Chaos carriers launch bombers. Lots of them.
3. Chaos shouldn't brace. If a hit is rolled, a hit is rolled.
4. Turn 2, Chaos LOs and starts shooting the lights out of the NCs.
5. Bombers should now be attacking the IN ships. Chaos carriers RO and shoot their lances at damaged IN ships.
6. Chaos ships should not brace again.
7. Turn 3. Chaos ships LO, move minimal speed and start using their broadsides against the IN fleet. Most likely crippling or destroying a lot of the IN ships.
That's what you should be doing Nate.
Also, the only point of forming his fleet into squadrons as he did would be AAF. In which case it becomes imperative that you not brace. He formed squadrons and yet braced. This is a no-no. Squadron, AAF, run the gauntlet. Otherwise, go individual and brace as and when the need arises. Either way, you should not group up.
140cm?
That is 40-60-40
Chaos on edge
IN at back
Difference = 100cm.
Without AAF (which he should've done with all ships!).
75cm left.
IN moves 10cm minimum.
65cm left.
Turn 2:
Chaos moves (lockon) 25cm
distance left 40cm. (Move less desirable to avoid 30cm guns of IN if 45cm guns cannot get into play).
All without AAF.
Smiley
Which should be done in turn one.
and about the question in general
turn 1: 1 dead on in 7 shots
damage done by dead on: 2 shields
damage done by miss: two AC, another entire AC wave, 1 damage and 2 shields
turn 2: 1 dead on in 7 shots, 3 hits "missed" and fall dead on another ship (umbelievable)
damage done by dead on: 2 shields and 2 damages,
damage done by miss: 2 shield and 3 damage, 2 shields and 3 damages (again), 2 shields
turn 3: 3 dead on in 7 shots, 2 hits "missed and fall dead on another ship (umbelievable)
damage done by dead on: 1 shield and 1 damage, 5 damages, 3 damages
damage done by miss: 1 shield, 1 damage PLUS 2 shields and 4 damage (the same hit), 2 shield and 1 damage
turn 4: 4 dead on in 6 shots
damage done by dead on: 1 shield, 1 shield and 3 damages, 6 damages, 6 damages
damage done by miss: 1 shield, 4 damages
SO:
9 dead on in 27 shots, BUT the miss did a MASSACRE! 11 miss has damaged something and 5 hits made dead on another target! It's impossible!
Dead on made : 7 shields and 26 hits: TOTAL=33
Miss made : 14 shields, 17 hits and two AC waves: TOTAL=31 + 2 WAVES of AC
This weapon is not the Nova Cannon, it's the "flybywire's magic dice Cannon"
NC fleets don't win tournaments, don't forget it
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Lol, perhaps Nate should take a picture of his scatter dice?
The way Eudaimon writes it comes across as pretty harsh but he is right, the scattering was unbelievable accurate and deadly. Everyone agrees on that. :)
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but he is right, the scattering was unbelievable accurate and deadly. Everyone agrees on that. :)
All I know is I don't think I have *ever* had that good a luck scattering in any game, let alone BFG. I *wish* my dice were that good ;). That's not to say it can't happen, but that was pretty unbelievable.
Cheers, Gary
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In +10 years of playing I never seen a scatter hit another target spot on.
Never received it, never experienced it. I never had a glancing hit on scatter as well...
And he had that in ONE battle. I mean... that is a truly wtf moment for many of us. haha.
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Clearly we need more data, as this small sample of playtests seems to be defying expectations. Perhaps those of us who are capable should take Nate's playtest fleet lists and fight some of out own battles and post the results.
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Maybe we could add points the more NCs you add to your fleet. (If it is seen as a necessarity to get a restriction) Make it +10 for the third, +20 for the forth +40 for the fifth. So if you have a few ships with NC its no problem but as soon as you mass them it gets more expensive.
My opinion is not to restrict them at all, players should figure it out as they do with many things in theri playing group and most competitions have their own restrictions anyway so they can add their own.
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Nate,
I'm as perplexed as the majority of responders with how things played out. I'd really go balls-to-wall with Chaos and just push them in as ferociously as possible in the next game. This particular battle seems to have brought good fortune to your scatters and very unlucky rolls to your son's ordnance reloads. I think you've got it right that you should stick with the same fleet composition(for now) and I certainly agree with RCgothic that others should report on the same fleet compositions. Still, at some point I would like to see you max out the Chaos fleet with all slaughters and see what happens as well!
Keep it coming, and have a happy holiday!
Russ
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Even assuming that the IN player had the good fortune of getting such wonderful scatters, the problem for me isn't in the number of NCs. It's a problem with the rules. In my NC rules, scatters with center hole landing on another base does only D3 damage not D6.
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Wow, I found this board at long last. Was tired of waiting for PM to come back up and horizon mentioned that there was this 'other' board...
Anyway, I hate to say it, but my first post I'm swimming up stream and will say that I've seen a lot of NC spam myself, and agree with the op. It's like facing all basilisk AC lists. It either falls on it's face, or absolutely maims you.
The simplest strategy for NC spam is to pick something that looks important, and fire five or six NCs (or seven or eight) at it. Even factoring in scatter, you are likely to score at least a few hits. Table dimensions are pretty much the deciding factor on if you're dead (or at least smoking) before you get there. Small tables are bad for NC. Large tables are good for it.
I know some people have dismissed NC as more having a psychological impact, but last week I lost 9 iconoclasts to massed NC fire trying to cross the 120cm to the safe zone going AAF, so he's not entirely blowing smoke.
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You're concerned because you lost 9 Iconoclasts? Given their cost, I'd be happy the NCs were shooting at them instead of my cruisers and would have been driving my cruisers forward so that I can destroy the enemy ships.
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You're concerned because you lost 9 Iconoclasts? Given their cost, I'd be happy the NCs were shooting at them instead of my cruisers and would have been driving my cruisers forward so that I can destroy the enemy ships.
They were all that was in range. He split his NCs between squadrons 1 and 2 during his first shooting, and on his second on squadron three and the Murder/Hades squadron that had just edged into range. By the time the cruisers got across the killing zone, most of them had lost two or three hits.
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So, now it's your turn. Brutalize the NC ships via Lock On.
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Yeah, I tried that, and managed to kill a Gothic (damn you admech) and damage two others before his next shooting phase, which lead to me loosing everything but my Hades which beat a hasty retreat, and the Styx which had never closed to begin with.
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I know some people have dismissed NC as more having a psychological impact, but last week I lost 9 iconoclasts to massed NC fire trying to cross the 120cm to the safe zone going AAF, so he's not entirely blowing smoke.
OK, you either grouped them too close, didn't brace or both. If you had them spread out and lost 9 NC then either that was all you lost (ie, he wasted a massive amount of NC firepower killing a few escorts) or he was tremendously accurate and managed to hit and kill an escort with every single shot (which is still a waste of NC firepower).
The most simple and number 1 rule when flying against a NC fleet is spread out. No NC shot should hit more than 1 ship. No NC shot should scatter to hit a ship other than its original target (which at extreme ranges it won't do anyway).
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The AdMech is so expensive (Gothic with NC = 235pts) they will hardly get the 7 NC per fleet plus the AdMech has more NC access anyway.
As the admiral says: killing 9 escorts is kinda good with an NC. The NC hole does D6 damage. The template 1 hit.
So you could've braced if more NC's would've been bearing down.
More details on the battle please.
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Your opponent never braced? And why didn't the Styx join in with its bomber wings and it's dorsal weaponry? That many lances should have provoked a lot of BFIs on the NC ships.
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*sigh*
As best as I recall, since I didn't take notes:
3 Dominators, 2 Lunars, a Gothic, a Mars and an Apoc. IIRC the mars had a left shift and had fighters CAP on the Apoc.
Mine was 3 Murders (squadroned) and a hades, 3 Devastations (TB, squadroned) and a Styx, and 9 icos in 3 squadrons (not my normal load out, but my desolator was being stripped)
We spent a few turns approaching each other (me toward the planet, him toward me) going AAF but my Icos kept pulling ahead.
Now, against non-NC fleets, or even fleets with two or three, I sit back, launch boatloads of AC and lance the dog snot out of anything that tries to get near, with the icos either providing turret boosts or extra firepower against targets that get close.
However, with them out ranging me, I figured it would be better to turn and AAF toward him and cross my fingers, since to sit in the NC range meant that I was going to be having him focus fire NC at one target at a time.
So I went AAF and as before, the Icos pulled too far ahead, and entered range before the rest of my ships. The Styx failed it's roll, so I left it to hang back rather then have it primaried until the rest closed. I headed for the middle and then for the flank with the Gothic, which seemed to be the only lances on that flank. The Icos got hosed right off the bat, for the reasons described above: failed BFI and too close together. Between blast markers slowing me, NC hits, and lance fire from the apoc and mars as I closed, the ships took on average about 3hp, some a little more, some less. the hades on the flank was actually fairly undamaged IIRC. I turned my fighters and bombers toward the Mars, hoping to maybe take it out on the pass, but without much luck. (Styx reloads ord here) The Gothic and two dominators plastered the Devistations, leaving one with a single HP and the other two damaged. I locked on and killed the gothic (failed BFI), which became a burning hulk, and damaged a dominator (BFI but was hit anyway) but started to get bunched up due to blast markers. At this point (his movement phase) the burning gothic unleashed my most hated BFG foe, the plasma drive explosion, killing a devastation, which, not to be outdone, I then rolled a 12 on the table, for a full on warp drive implosion. This was the end of both remaining devastations and the damaged dominator, as well one murder and damaging the other two.
The apoc and lunars managed come to bare at this point, and all cruisers focus fired on the remaining murders, (which, despite BFI) enough damage got through to kill them. At this point I conceded.
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lol :P
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Hi,
the Apocalypse takes a critical from firing lances over 30cm. So you should've used that (per FAQ2010 the Apocalypse no longer takes a hitpoint).
I guess the Gothic was AdMech allied? Because the AdMech does not have Dominators, Apocalypse & Mars.
Your Iconoclasts where positioned awkwardly then by moving to far away (you should've calculated the 5cm extra speed).
The Plasma Explosion is just an unlucky event. I had the same once vs Orks: I blew up a Kill Kroozer resulting in more vps to him then to me haha).
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Not trying to be negative to the OP's original post, but does anyone have any other real evidence that the NC is overpowered other than anecdotal evidence that neglects to include the rest of the relevant scenario? IN was my first fleet and I've used NC a lot, but I've never seen the kind of results that Nate experienced in his batrep, nor have NC been all that great for me since the scattering rules were introduced. You basically have a 1/3 chance of a hit at any given range and a miss almost guarantees the template will scatter off the base. If you are actually scattering onto something then realistically that's generally a lucky thing if your opponent isn't just clustering their ships together. In the case of that batrep I'd say it is so off base as to be pretty much useless in determining anything. Also, given his son's tactics in that game it seems quite clear that they were suboptimal at best. Some other factors to consider:
1. some fleets could care less about NC (Eldar, Necrons and most Tau fleets). A weapon that is generally effective vs a few fleets would IMO hardly be a reason to change the rules for them.
2. celestial phenomena: there is very little discussion of how it is used in this batrep except the planet being used as a slingshot mechanism. NC are LoS weapons and asteroids, etc. block this. I have seen many games where effective use of decent terrain essentially negated any NC a fleet brought.
3. The IN fleet was obviously min-maxed, yet the Chaos fleet was not. Simple cruiser vs cruiser comparisons are not always effective at determining balance since that's only one scenario, and not usually a good one for most fleets. I can envision a number of alternative Chaos fleet lists that would have made a mess of the IN fleet, e.g. escort heavy, ordnance heavy, etc.
4. the scenario itself: Cruiser Clash is only one of the scenarios present and just because one fleet does well in it does not mean said fleet is overpowered or needs to be changed. Scenarios are one form of balance that the game enforces. Using only one of them is not an effective means of balancing an entire fleet, or determining if a single weapon system is overpowered.
5. the table: I know Nate has to play with what he has (as do we all), but a larger table may have given more options for manouver and/or staying out of range longer if desired.
Frankly it just seems some people hate Nova Cannons. However, without actual evidence provided that includes all the info as in Nate's batrep, i.e. fleet composition, scenario, die rolls, etc., any supposition that NC are broken is just that.
JMO...
Cheers, Gary
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3. The IN fleet was obviously min-maxed, yet the Chaos fleet was not. Simple cruiser vs cruiser comparisons are not always effective at determining balance since that's only one scenario, and not usually a good one for most fleets. I can envision a number of alternative Chaos fleet lists that would have made a mess of the IN fleet, e.g. escort heavy, ordnance heavy, etc.
Actually for playtesting this the fleet situation like this is best. A maxed NC fleet vs a regular fleet. The regular fleet should have a chance to beat the NC list. I say it can.
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Actually for playtesting this the fleet situation like this is best. A maxed NC fleet vs a regular fleet. The regular fleet should have a chance to beat the NC list. I say it can.
I say a regular fleet can as well. However, I disagree entirely with your other statement. It's no different than tailoring armies based on knowing who your opponent is. If you want to determine actual balance you need to put both sides on equal footing. The only time this scenario will prove anything is if the NC fleet can reliably beat one that is tailored to defeat it. Then and only then could the NC be considered unbalanced. If a fleet has options that can defeat another fleet on a relatively even basis, then there are no grounds to say it or any element of it is broken because the factors average out. That's how playtesting should be done if you want actual results that can be measured.
Cheers, Gary
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Actually for playtesting this the fleet situation like this is best. A maxed NC fleet vs a regular fleet. The regular fleet should have a chance to beat the NC list. I say it can.
I say a regular fleet can as well. However, I disagree entirely with your other statement. It's no different than tailoring armies based on knowing who your opponent is. If you want to determine actual balance you need to put both sides on equal footing. The only time this scenario will prove anything is if the NC fleet can reliably beat one that is tailored to defeat it. Then and only then could the NC be considered unbalanced. If a fleet has options that can defeat another fleet on a relatively even basis, then there are no grounds to say it or any element of it is broken because the factors average out. That's how playtesting should be done if you want actual results that can be measured.
Cheers, Gary
You've got it all the way around. If an NC fleet can beat an anti-NC tailored fleet, it just proves that the NC fleet can handle the situation and thus there is no need to improve on it as well as a need to limit it if the NC fleet wins overwhelmingly.
Horizon has it right that a non-tailored fleet should be able to beat an NC fleet so that we can show the NC does not need neutering.
See the difference? In this case, we do not need any further neutering to the NC.
Edit: added the underlined portion.
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You've got it all the way around. If an NC fleet can beat an anti-NC tailored fleet, it just proves that the NC fleet can handle the situation and thus there is no need to improve on it.
Horizon has it right that a non-tailored fleet should be able to beat an NC fleet so that we can show the NC does not need neutering.
See the difference? In this case, we do not need any further neutering to the NC.
That's absolutely false. That is not how playtesting is done to determine balance. I did computer games design for a while and what you describe is absolutely not the way it's done. There are multiple ways to achieve balance in a game:
1. you balance at the system level, i.e. all options are identical for opposing forces or they are relatively equivalent.
2. you balance at the force level where elements may not be equivalent, but you add in counters to any opposing advantages/disadvantages, etc.
3. you balance at the unit level where each unit is a self-contained entity and either has equivalent abilities and/or counters as in #2 above.
BFG, and in fact all of GW's games, are generally balanced at the force level. In Nate's example he is attempting to adjudicate a scenario whereby one side is allowed to take its advantages and the other is not. All you do is prove that one side is more powerful when allowed to use certain elements while denying the opposition the ability to use its counters. This is what happened in Nate's game and should be expected (except for his ridiculously good die rolling). If you continue to play this scenario the NC fleet should be able to defeat a non-min/max force on a regular basis. This uses the following assumptions:
a. the NC is better than normal weaponry in most situations
b. the players are relatively equal in skill and ability
c. both players use the best possible tactics given their fleet composition to win the game
d. the scenario is not skewed to favor one side or another
The only time the results of playing this scenario should result in the balanced fleet winning on an equal or greater basis are if any of the above assumptions are incorrect.
Sorry, not to be rude or anything, but if you don't believe me you need to take Systems Engineering and Design 101.
Cheers, Gary
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Again, we're trying to prove that the NC does not need any more neutering by showing that a non-tailored list can beat an NC list. We already know the NC IS balanced (though I myself feel it has been hammered more than norm).
The problem at the moment is Nate's almost unbelievable good fortune in rolling hits or wonderful scatters rolls which is showing NC list overwhelming the non-tailored list which would then prove his point that the NC does need limitations.
Now while I don't have the time to study Systems Engineering 101, I think my english and understanding of logic here doesn't require me to take the subject you mentioned. Maybe you just need to go back to English 101. Not to be rude or anything, of course.
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Again, we're trying to prove that the NC does not need any more neutering by showing that a non-tailored list can beat an NC list. We already know the NC IS balanced (though I myself feel it has been hammered more than norm).
And what I was trying to show is that Nate's example proves nothing. If you actually want to prove your hypothesis then you need to follow a structured process to do so.
The problem at the moment is Nate's almost unbelievable good fortune in rolling hits or wonderful scatters rolls which is showing NC list overwhelming the non-tailored list which would then prove his point that the NC does need limitations.
His batrep shows nothing actually since the scenario was unequal.
Now while I don't have the time to study Systems Engineering 101, I think my english and understanding of logic here doesn't require me to take the subject you mentioned. Maybe you just need to go back to English 101. Not to be rude or anything, of course.
Perhaps, though I do actually have a minor in English thank you ;). If I was unclear you have my apologies. Which reminds me, I did actually make a mistake in my statement. The correct discipline to use would be Research Methods and Statistics, not Systems Engineering and Design. Sorry, got confused for a moment. However, the point stands. The only example provided to date that provides all the necessary information does not stand up to critical analysis and as such cannot be used to determine for or against changing the NC. That's what I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to convey.
As I noted in my previous post though, if any fleet composition by the opposing force (including the balanced one) can manage to defeat the NC fleet on a regular basis and assumptions B, C and D are not an issue, then yes, it would prove that assumption A is false. However, that wasn't the result of Nate's batrep and there have been no others provided as comparison.
Cheers, Gary
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And what I was trying to show is that Nate's example proves nothing. If you actually want to prove your hypothesis then you need o follow a structured process to do so.
You're structured process mostly works if you're starting out from scratch. The thing is, BFG exists already. The weapon exists. Nate of the HA is now proposing to limit the NC for the sake of balance. If you had replied that to Nate, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, you replied to Horizon, thereby contradicting what he says and siding with Nate.
His batrep shows nothing actually since the scenario was unequal.
It was supposed to be unequal. The true test of whether something is balanced or not is if an ordinary non-tailored fleet can take it out, without having to min-max its own bells and whistles. The Chaos fleet mentioned is an all around fleet. It has lances, WBs and AC in as proportioned measure as one can take. It uses a ship class, the Murder, which is not favored by a lot. Now if that fleet can beat the NC spamming fleet, then it goes a way to prove our point that the NC should not be limited.
One can use a tailored fleet against an NC but what does that show? That a fleet designed to handle the NC fleet should successfully handle it if not overwhelmingly. As it should. If the NC beats it, then there's a problem and something needs to be fixed.
Perhaps, though I do actually have a minor in English thank you ;-). If I was unclear you have my apologies. However, the point stands. The only example provided to date that provides all the necessary information does not stand up to critical analysis and as such cannot be used to determine for or against changing the NC. That's what I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to convey.
Cheers, Gary
Of course it doesn't but not in the context you are presenting. The problem at the moment is Nate getting those incredible rolls. The parameters of the test are correct for what the objective is here.
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You're structured process mostly works if you're starting out from scratch. The thing is, BFG exists already. The weapon exists. Nate of the HA is now proposing to limit the NC for the sake of balance. If you had replied that to Nate, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, you replied to Horizon, thereby contradicting what he says and siding with Nate.
Hmmm... I was contradicting an incorrect statement, not siding with any one party. Though I happen to fall into the NC needs no nerfing camp personally, if you want to prove that point you cannot support methods that are inappropriate. All research begins with an assumption or hypothesis. Nate's is that the NC is overpowered. The only real way to determine that is through proper analysis. For that purpose RM&S works equally well on existing systems as it does on new ones.
It was supposed to be unequal. The true test of whether something is balanced or not is if an ordinary non-tailored fleet can take it out, without having to min-max its own bells and whistles.
While the end result is potentially supportive, it is a false assumption to believe that an unequal conflict can be use effectively used to evaluate a scenario. If a fleet is provided options as a counter then that is one method of balancing the system. Individual elements need not be equivalent. In this scenario if the balanced fleet were to win regularly vs the NC fleet it would be more an indication that either a) the NC was potentially underpowered or b) the opposing fleet might possibly be overpowered in some other way. In that regard I would like to see the results of a NC fleet vs a min-maxed opponent anyway since if a balanced fleet could beat it, then what possibly could an optimized one do? While it would indeed prove that NC are not *overpowered*, that would be incidental to the other two possible reasons for the result. This assumes that Nova Cannons are accepted to be more effective than other weapon types in the game. If you eliminate this assumption then you eliminate the reason for the hypothesis in the first place.
The Chaos fleet mentioned is an all around fleet. It has lances, WBs and AC in as proportioned measure as one can take. It uses a ship class, the Murder, which is not favored by a lot. Now if that fleet can beat the NC spamming fleet, then it goes a way to prove our point that the NC should not be limited.
That is correct, but as I said it would potentially indicate other problems in the two lists. However, since the purpose of this thread is to disprove Nate's assumption (since he's the one who provided the relevant data to analyze) if *any* fleet can reliably defeat the NC fleet (given that all other assumptions I presented remain true) then that will prove false Nate's assumption that NCs are overpowered. Note that this has to include *ALL* fleets, not just Chaos or Imperials. Some fleets will by design be better than others vs certain opponents. Eldar for instance can pretty much ignore NC since their holofields will allow them to approach with near impunity. Necrons are simply fast enough to get out of arc if they wish. Tau railguns will do a number on a NC fleet. Bugs will in general just swarm in as normal. So to say NC are overpowered means that they would have to be so against a majority of *all* fleets, not just one or two.
One can use a tailored fleet against an NC but what does that show?
It shows that the fleet as a whole has options to deal with Nova Cannons. As I also noted about games design, all options need not be equal. They just have to have a counter. In BFG that counter can be things like point cost, alternate weapon systems or defenses, movement rate differences, etc. The list goes on.
That a fleet designed to handle the NC fleet should successfully handle it if not overwhelmingly. As it should. If the NC beats it, then there's a problem and something needs to be fixed.
Your second statement is correct. Your first is not. A fleet designed to counter a NC fleet should not always defeat it overwhelmingly. If the game is reasonably balanced the results should be relatively equal since both fleets are playing to a strength of their own. If the anti-NC fleet wins more often than it should then something else is amiss since the opposing force would appear to be the overpowered one and/or the NC be proven to be underpowered. Either that or the range of balance in the game is such that extreme builds result in rock-paper-scissors army types. This occurrence increases with the number of options present in a game. If this is the case then it becomes exponentially harder to determine the balance of individual elements like the Nova Cannon. Unfortunately, it's a trade-off that comes with increasing flexibility and variety in a system. GW tends to favor this route because it improves the relationship between the game and the game universe. Computer games tend to implement fewer options in favor of consistent gameplay, though obviously there are exceptions.
As an aside, this is something I think many players either forget or don't consider when clamoring for "balance." There are other factors in this particular genre of games that have to be considered. While I hear over and over again from some players that "fluff is a poor means of balancing the game," that same fluff is what attracted many, if not most of us to BFG in the first place. If it weren't for that fluff many of us (including me) would not play BFG at all. Thus whether some players like it or not, in order to establish that link between the game and game universe some consolations have to be made between the fictional reality of the setting and the needs of the game. You can't simply say one or the other should always take precedence. Anyway, JMO and sorry for the slight rant.
The problem at the moment is Nate getting those incredible rolls.
In that we agree wholeheartedly. If my dice were that good no one would play me ;).
Cheers, Gary
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No Nate, you had more & better scatters in one game then in all my games with or against NC together. ;)
140cm?
That is 40-60-40
Chaos on edge
IN at back
Difference = 100cm.
Without AAF (which he should've done with all ships!).
75cm left.
IN moves 10cm minimum.
65cm left.
Turn 2:
Chaos moves (lockon) 25cm
distance left 40cm. (Move less desirable to avoid 30cm guns of IN if 45cm guns cannot get into play).
All without AAF.
:)
Which should be done in turn one.
Hi Horizon!! :) You are assuming we started directly across the table from each other. He started dead center of his 90cm (horizontal) deployment zone 35cm away form the table edge to minimize any slant range advantage I might get. I on the other hand started in the far (my left) corner of my 90cm deployment zone, putting me both 100cm away from his deplyment zone AND 45cm away from the horizontal center point perpendicular to his fleet. Simple trigonometry puts the slant range at about 110cm. Factor that extra 10cm with how much I slowed his ships down (-5cm for two turns), you get a third round of NC shooting.
I hate calculator gaming. I get enough of calculators at work... :P
Incidentally, my son thinks my dice are possessed (we maintain separate dice). I reminded him that HE owns the Chaos fleet, not me! ;D
- Nate
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Incidentally, my son thinks my dice are possessed (we maintain separate dice). I reminded him that HE owns the Chaos fleet, not me! ;D
Nice :D
Cheers, Gary
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Hi,
the Apocalypse takes a critical from firing lances over 30cm. So you should've used that (per FAQ2010 the Apocalypse no longer takes a hitpoint).
I guess the Gothic was AdMech allied? Because the AdMech does not have Dominators, Apocalypse & Mars.
Your Iconoclasts where positioned awkwardly then by moving to far away (you should've calculated the 5cm extra speed).
The Plasma Explosion is just an unlucky event. I had the same once vs Orks: I blew up a Kill Kroozer resulting in more vps to him then to me haha).
I think we did, but it's a thrusters hit. Since all he had to do was keep moving forward with it to come abeam of me when I hit the blast markers around the gothic it didn't matter much.
I admit, as AAR's go, mine sucks. it was a casual game where we were trying out a new, smaller table. And you were right, playing on a smaller table (I found a 14' by 8' I had put in the attic for us to use) does speed things up. But it still feels cramped when I try to maneuver.
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@SH & Ad'A
You are talking at cross-purposes here. You have opposite null-hypotheses. SH, you are looking for evidence that the NC is overpowered, therefore it needs to beat a tailored list to show this. Ad'A, you are looking for evidence that the NC is not overpowered, so are looking for a non-tailored list to beat it to show this.
The current state of play is; whine whine whinge "Nova Cannons hurts me" whinge whinge whine "Bad Nova Cannon" suk suk blah "Nerf 'em!" Given this, a better proof to shut these people up is to show not that they are balanced because they don't beat tailored anti-NC lists, but to show that non-tailored lists can beat NC lists. It's a stronger counter-argument, though one or the other should suffice.
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Well, with a little bit of proxying, I managed this with my mate Steve. I usually play Imperials, but we swapped for this match, with me taking Chaos side.
Imperial Fleet:
Mars, Ld6, Fleet Admiral w/re-roll
Lunar/NC Ld9,
Lunar/NC Ld7,
Squadron:
Dominator Ld9,
Dominator Ld7,
Squadron:
Dominator Ld6,
Dominator Ld8,
Total: 1480 points
Chaos Fleet
Squadroned:
Styx, Ld9, Chaos Lord w/re-roll
Devastation, Ld7,
Devastation, Ld7,
Murder, Ld8,
Murder, Ld8,
Murder/lance variant, Ld9
Hades, Ld6,
2x Infidel, Ld7
Total: 1485 points
Deployment:
The Table was 140cm across, Scenario Fleet Engagement. Imperials chose Sphere, Chaos Wedge. Imps won set up and deployment, choosing A and making chaos deploy first. I deployed the Infidels first, but after that I matched the Imperial fleet, who set up in a corner, as far away as he could, a pair of Dominators on each flank, surrounding the Lunars and Mars.
I deployed the carriers in a line so that each carrier was closest to roughly the same number of enemy vessels as the other two, behind a skirmish line of my gunships. The Iconoclasts were a bit out of position on my left flank. Total separation was 96cm between closest cruisers.
First Turn:
Chaos won first turn, and immediately I went AAF with the carriers, rolling 37cm total. The Murders also went AAF, rolling 45cm, 32cm and 32cm respectively. The Hades and Iconoclasts didn’t get on AAF, and the Hades dropped behind. The Murders managed to stay ahead of the carriers. The Carriers launched, and 14 AC in three waves streaked towards the Imperial lines.
End of Turn Summary: Chaos 0 hits, Imp 0 hits, cruisers 41cm apart, Chaos Ordnance 40cm from Imps.
The Imperials moved forwards the minimum 10cm, turned slightly away from the closing chaos ships, and attempted to fire on the carriers. 4 Novas passed the leadership check, but they couldn’t focus due to squadron rules. 1 Direct hit to down shields and 2pts of damage on a Dev, the other three shots managed a blast marker on the Styx and the other Dev. The other three Novas, which had failed their target Priority check, targeted the lead Murder, which braced. It dook a direct hit for downed shields and 3 hits (2 subsequently saved), and a partial hit, which was also saved. The Mars launched fighters, but the Chaos Ordnance manoeuvred around it, to line up an attack run on one of the furthest Dominator Squadron.
End of turn summary: Chaos 3hits, Imps 0 hits, cruisers 31cm apart
Turn 2:
I elected to pass broadside to broadside to the Imps, rather than cross the T, in an attempt to come around behind them. Two of the Murders locked on, whilst the Carriers reloaded. The other ships were either braced, or failed. Gunnery focused on the nearest Dominator Squadron, which braced. The two locked on Murders at >15cm range did two hits to the lead Dominator, which was Abeam, whilst the remaining ships did 3 more hits against a 6+ prow closing. The 3 waves of Ordnance picked on the other Dominator Squadon, which also braced, and the attack craft rolled 24 attacks, doing 3 hits.
End of turn summary: Chaos 3 hits, Imps 8 hits, cruisers all <30cm apart.
With half the Imperials on BFI, the Mars Reloaded, and the Lunar Came to new Heading, swinging around the Chaos fleet. With both the Dominator squadrons braced, return fire is light, a couple of hits on the Hades and the Styx.
End of Turn Summary: Chaos 5hits, Imps8hits
Turn 3:
The Chaos fleet turns behind the Imperials, and the Murders target the near-side Dominators again. At close range, one is hulked, and the remaining one crippled and braced. The Styx and Devs move into base contact and launch a S14 AC wave at the Mars. It fails to brace, takes 9 hits, and has a warp drive Implosion of 15cm. This finishes off the second Dominator, cripples a Lunar, and strips the shields from two Murders and the remaining Dominators.
At this point, with the Chaos fleet on the Imperial’s rear, and most ships braced, we called it. Result:
Imperial Fleet:
Mars, Ld6, Fleet Admiral w/re-roll Destroyed
Lunar/NC Ld9, 2 hits Braced
Lunar/NC Ld7, 5 hits, Crippled
Dominator Ld9, Destroyed
Dominator Ld7, Destroyed
Dominator Ld6, 3 Hits Braced
Dominator Ld8, Braced
Chaos Fleet
Styx, Ld9, Chaos Lord w/re-roll 1 hit
Devastation, Ld7, 2 hits
Devastation, Ld7,
Murder, Ld8, 1 hit
Murder, Ld8,
Murder/lance variant, Ld9
Hades, Ld6, 1 hit
2x Infidel, Ld7
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Surely we need to restrict long range lances now? Or batteries?
Ah, sorry. :)
Thing is: would you apply same tactics vs a non-NC as well?
What would happened if IN was more balanced (eg more ordnance, more escorts, more torps)?
I'd say: switch roles as well, so rcG with IN NC heavy vs Chaos.
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Although I vote for 1 nc per 750 pts i really think that this is more of a metagame issue.
For our 1000pts tournaments we limit everything: novas, ordnance, 60cm lances, fleets that are valid etc. But for normal games we just agree with each other and play any way we want.
I think no official limit is needed - players can manage this within their gaming communities.
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For our 1000pts tournaments we limit , 60cm lances,
How do you manage that?
AdMech 60cm lance on every cruiser.
Chaos: Murder-Acheron-Devestation-Styx-Hades
That means only Slaughter & Carnage are non-restricted. And a Carnage 60cm with 10wb (broadside) is equal to 2-3 lances at that range.
Just curious as a) Chaos is hampered immense and b) I don't see a necessity in limiting anything beyond the rules even in a tournament setting.
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You are allowed to have up to 6 x 60cm lances firing in same ark, lances that fire LFR count for all arks they can shoot. If you just look at this it might seam odd, you have to take into accout all restrictions we use.
The point of this in 1000pts tournaments is to bring more balance for this exact format of play, to prevent munchkinism and to make it more competetive for all races.
Horizon, I thought my friend sent you full list of those rules recently.
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That is correct, but as I said it would potentially indicate other problems in the two lists. However, since the purpose of this thread is to disprove Nate's assumption (since he's the one who provided the relevant data to analyze) if *any* fleet can reliably defeat the NC fleet (given that all other assumptions I presented remain true) then that will prove false Nate's assumption that NCs are overpowered. Note that this has to include *ALL* fleets, not just Chaos or Imperials. Some fleets will by design be better than others vs certain opponents. Eldar for instance can pretty much ignore NC since their holofields will allow them to approach with near impunity. Necrons are simply fast enough to get out of arc if they wish. Tau railguns will do a number on a NC fleet. Bugs will in general just swarm in as normal. So to say NC are overpowered means that they would have to be so against a majority of *all* fleets, not just one or two.
Wait, did you just say, in a more round about way, that 'my all tombships/nightshades/sporecloud refit list has no trouble with NC, therefor it's not broken'?
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You are allowed to have up to 6 x 60cm lances firing in same ark, lances that fire LFR count for all arks they can shoot. If you just look at this it might seam odd, you have to take into accout all restrictions we use.
The point of this in 1000pts tournaments is to bring more balance for this exact format of play, to prevent munchkinism and to make it more competetive for all races.
Horizon, I thought my friend sent you full list of those rules recently.
Hi,
6x60cm lances in 1 arc? That is on average 3 hits. With Lock On bit higher. I see no reasoning to have this limit tbh.
And yes, we received the full list, per Warp Rift we accept all articles without personal judgement/bias/opinion.
BaronI, read Sigoroth's post, he summed the debate between Adm.A and S.H. neatly. :)
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Hi,
6x60cm lances in 1 arc? That is on average 3 hits. With Lock On bit higher. I see no reasoning to have this limit tbh.
And yes, we received the full list, per Warp Rift we accept all articles without personal judgement/bias/opinion.
We can start a new topic to discuss it after you release a new Warp Rift ;)
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No, he actually made a very good point. Even if Nova Cannons were demonstrably broken vs Chaos, SM and Orks (which they're not), taking an all-nova fleet would leave you hideously vulnerable to that weapon's hard counter, which in the Nova Cannon's case there are a fair few.
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You left out non-NC IN, which are almost as slow as SM. Select a target squadron and fire 8 of them, and even at range, with scatter, you're probably going to hit something.
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Why does that scatter never work for me. :(
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Why does that scatter never work for me. :(
I play IG in 40k. Anything that we have that's worth firing scatters. As my father once told me, 'aim for the center, you're bound to hit something'. If you volley fire NC from 8 ships at a given squadron, you're guaranteed to hit dead on at least once. Since the dice only have six sides. Anything that scatters onto anything else is bonus, but it's more likely if the ships are all 15cm or less from each other.
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If I recall correctly (since I don't have a 40k army anymore), the blast template of Basilisks and vehicles with similar weapons are much bigger than the one for the NC in BFG.
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Why does that scatter never work for me. :(
I play IG in 40k. Anything that we have that's worth firing scatters. As my father once told me, 'aim for the center, you're bound to hit something'. If you volley fire NC from 8 ships at a given squadron, you're guaranteed to hit dead on at least once. Since the dice only have six sides. Anything that scatters onto anything else is bonus, but it's more likely if the ships are all 15cm or less from each other.
Well, I'll tell my opponents they should keep their ships close together if I show up with Nova Cannons.
And Ill no longer spread my ships and thus keep em close so my opponents can have a succesfull scatter.
:)
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Why does that scatter never work for me. :(
I play IG in 40k. Anything that we have that's worth firing scatters. As my father once told me, 'aim for the center, you're bound to hit something'. If you volley fire NC from 8 ships at a given squadron, you're guaranteed to hit dead on at least once. Since the dice only have six sides. Anything that scatters onto anything else is bonus, but it's more likely if the ships are all 15cm or less from each other.
Well, I'll tell my opponents they should keep their ships close together if I show up with Nova Cannons.
And Ill no longer spread my ships and thus keep em close so my opponents can have a succesfull scatter
:)
LOL All I have to say is that 15cm isn't that far (since the template is 5cm across). If they're farther apart then that, your squadron is not in cohesion. Though I've always wondered if you measure from the center or from the edge. I've always measured from the edge, myself.
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Measurement is center.
My capital ships never fly in squadron. :) And escort squadrons are spread out if I face NC, when lines close they mass vs ordnance.
Also: if Nova Cannon is shot above 60cm the scatter is maximum 3x6 = 18cm. So with ships at 15cm I need to roll high plus the direction needs to be precisely correct.
Under 60cm the scatter is 2d6, so a maximum of 12cm, a ship at 15cm.... heh.
Under 45cm the max is 6cm.
And in both cases the direction needs to be good as well.
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Measurement is center.
My capital ships never fly in squadron. :) And escort squadrons are spread out if I face NC, when lines close they mass vs ordnance.
Also: if Nova Cannon is shot above 60cm the scatter is maximum 3x6 = 18cm. So with ships at 15cm I need to roll high plus the direction needs to be precisely correct.
Under 60cm the scatter is 2d6, so a maximum of 12cm, a ship at 15cm.... heh.
Under 45cm the max is 6cm.
And in both cases the direction needs to be good as well.
Which means under 45cm, you can only miss on a six and you have about a 50% change to get the hole on the base. (base is 5cm across, template is 5cm across, and we're measuring from the center.
I tend to squadron for the better LD and squadron firing rules. After all, a str 12 lance hit is much better then a bunch of str 3's. As long as you hit.
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I tend to squadron for the better LD and squadron firing rules. After all, a str 12 lance hit is much better then a bunch of str 3's. As long as you hit.
Er, no, it's not.
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I tend to squadron for the better LD and squadron firing rules. After all, a str 12 lance hit is much better then a bunch of str 3's. As long as you hit.
Er, no, it's not.
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Against one target, it is. With a single lance hit your odds are 50/50. The Gambler's Ruin dictates that for each success, your odds of loosing the next toss double. Admittedly, it's an 'all or nothing' approach, but I've generally found it works to roll the fewest dice for the most damage possible.
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I tend to squadron for the better LD and squadron firing rules. After all, a str 12 lance hit is much better then a bunch of str 3's. As long as you hit.
Er, no, it's not.
\
Against one target, it is. With a single lance hit your odds are 50/50. The Gambler's Ruin dictates that for each success, your odds of loosing the next toss double. Admittedly, it's an 'all or nothing' approach, but I've generally found it works to roll the fewest dice for the most damage possible.
Wow. Learn some stats.
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I tend to squadron for the better LD and squadron firing rules. After all, a str 12 lance hit is much better then a bunch of str 3's. As long as you hit.
Er, no, it's not.
\
Against one target, it is. With a single lance hit your odds are 50/50. The Gambler's Ruin dictates that for each success, your odds of loosing the next toss double. Admittedly, it's an 'all or nothing' approach, but I've generally found it works to roll the fewest dice for the most damage possible.
Wow. Learn some stats.
I never look at stats. Either a shot hits or it doesn't. There are better odds of lesser hit by rolling a larger number of dice, but it's better to kill a ship and then hit the next ship, and the next ship. Since I tend toward lance/AC heavy fleets these days, this process works fairly well. Further, I don't have to spend an hour mathhammering my next move. If I use AC to cripple cap ships and kill escorts, there are fewer targets to engage. Every ship I lance to death at 60cm is one that I don't have to worry about later.
Each ship that is killed outright reduces my foes combat effectiveness when he finally does close. It's not about individual shots, I'm not aiming to cripple their ships, I'm aiming to cripple their fleet.
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Sig, I've seen this in play many times. Regardless of statistics, I tend to roll better when I roll more dice than if I roll one or two. One of my friends is even worse. It's been a running joke that somewhere in the world is a person who makes every brace save to offset my friends failure to roll 4+.
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Dice are just random number generators. A difference in the texture of your skin as you throw the dice, or a variation in the table surface can create a totally different roll.
In my case, I tend to roll high firing, but if I have to BFI I'm screwed. So I tailor my fleet in my favor.
When I play IG I do the same, I tend toward one shot kill weapons like a Vanquisher or Executioner.
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It doesn't matter if you roll 10 dice at once.
Or 1 after 1.
It is the same amount of dice. Thus same stats. I think it is just a feeling you have about the dice. Not true values.
Also, since when is a base 5cm across? ... really? :) But at the <45cm distance the IN starts thinking: NC (unreliable, perhaps a hit and still only 1 hit vs a shield) or presenting broadside.
Also: I only squadroned once because a Protector rolled ld6 and a cheap Emissary Ld9. Ld7 is enough to go alone imo.
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Gamblers ruin has more to do with the Gambler believing that because he's had a good run it's going to continue.
The next dice is always 1/6th chance of each face, regardless of how many you have rolled before.
Odds of missing with one shot: =(1-P(Hit))
Odds of missing with three shots: = (1-P(Hit))^3
Odds of missing with 4x three shots = ((1-P(Hit))^3)^4 = (1-P(Hit))^12
Odds of missing with 12 shots = (1-P(Hit))^12
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Gamblers ruin has more to do with the Gambler believing that because he's had a good run it's going to continue.
IIRC that's actually called the Gambler's Fallacy. Basically a 'fair coin' (being one that has exactly a 50/50 chance of coming up heads of tails) will approach 50/50 in proportion, but it never systemically be reduced to 0.
Here's the thing: statistical regularity =/= real world. If you roll dice, you'll find that it's close to 1/6 but does not equal it. Further, imperfections in the die itself will bias it toward certain outcomes. (hence why RPG players have 'lucky dice'. Due to their manufacture process, some dice are naturally biased toward an outcome. They aren't loaded, per se, but they're statistically going to roll one outcome more then another due to being biased.)
On bases: sorry, wrote that when not awake. (I had grabbed a 40mm base out of the box by accident) Against a large based ship such as a BB or GC, though, the point still stands.
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Almost, not completely. ;) The scatter will remain ineffective towards non-targetted ships (which was the starting point of this conversation).
I fail to see why the outcome between 12 dice at once is different then 12 dice after another. Same statistics apply.
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I think the point is that although the same statistics apply, it may appear skewed with that small of a sample. So while the number of brace saves made to failed is statistically 50% if you calculated all the brace saves rolled in the world, in a small sample it would be possible to have someone fail 4 of 5 saves while someone else makes 4 of 5 saves without affecting the overall statistic.
In the same way 12 dice individually should roll the same as 12 at the same time statistically, but may not play out that way when rolled although if you did multiple tests the data should still balance out.
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I think the point is that although the same statistics apply, it may appear skewed with that small of a sample. So while the number of brace saves made to failed is statistically 50% if you calculated all the brace saves rolled in the world, in a small sample it would be possible to have someone fail 4 of 5 saves while someone else makes 4 of 5 saves without affecting the overall statistic.
In the same way 12 dice individually should roll the same as 12 at the same time statistically, but may not play out that way when rolled although if you did multiple tests the data should still balance out.
In probability it's called a biased or 'unfair' coin. It's a sample that, for what ever reason, tends to land heads or tails more often then it should. In the real world, all coins are biased, as they are not mathematically perfectly smooth and even. Small imperfections in the coin create turbulence that alters the outcome of the toss, etc.
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rolling 4 sets of 3 dice is identical to rolling 1 set of 12 dice. Now, can we move off this absurd topic.
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rolling 4 sets of 3 dice is identical to rolling 1 set of 12 dice. Now, can we move off this absurd topic.
Talking to a wargamer about dice and probability is like talking to a D&D player about drow and succubi. The conversation is bound to go to esoteric and possibly disturbing places.
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I'd say: switch roles as well, so rcG with IN NC heavy vs Chaos.
As requested, a swap of sides, with me playing Imperials, same list as before:
Imperial Fleet:
Mars, Ld9, Fleet Admiral w/re-roll
Lunar/NC Ld8,
Lunar/NC Ld8,
Dominator Ld9,
Dominator Ld7,
Dominator Ld7,
Dominator Ld9,
Total: 1480 points
Chaos Fleet
Squadroned:
Styx, Ld8, Chaos Lord w/re-roll
Devastation, Ld8,
Devastation, Ld7,
Murder, Ld7,
Murder, Ld8,
Murder/lance variant, Ld8
Hades, Ld7,
2x Infidel, Ld6
Total: 1485 points
I started as far back as possible, with two groups in opposite corners (Lunar&2Doms + Mars, Lunar&2Doms), hoping to split his fleet to buy some more time for my nova cannons. He was having none of it, and matched my deployment ship for ship, so that the Carriers went after the smaller group, with the Murders and Hades going after the Mars group. Separations were 110cm and 95cm.
I got first turn. I moved forward the minimum distance with both groups. The trio fired at the carriers bearing down on them, but thanks to the squadron rules the 3 shots were 2 on a Dev and 1 on a Hades. He didn’t brace, and I scored 1 point of damage past shields on the Dev, no other hits.
For the second group, I fired my first shot against the lead murder, and he braced. I scored1 hit. The subsequent three shots attempted to target the next murder in line, but one failed and fired at the original, doing 1 more partial hit. The 2nd murder didn’t brace and took 1 hit past shields. Separations 101 and 86cm.
In his turn, he AAF’d with everything he could, bar the infidels, which failed. The Carrier squadron moved forwards 45cm and launched ordnance. He was now 56cm away, so he fired forwards at me, doing a couple of blast markers on the Lunar.
The murders closed the gap by 35cm, doing one hit past shields on the Lunar. Separation 51cm.
In my turn, I moved the ships facing the carriers almost as far forwards as possible, turning to cross in front of the carriers and cram them against the edge of the board, focus fire on the Dev also bringing their three waves of ordnance into broadside arcs. The Styx’s Ordnance was promptly vaporised by combined fire from the Dominators, whilst one of the Dev squadrons was hit by a lucky shot from the Lunar. The nova Cannons focussed fire on the lead undamaged Dev, scoring 2 hits past shields.
On the other side of the board, I moved forwards 15cm forwards towards the heart of his murder squadron. Nova cannon shots exclusively targeted the lead murder (the slightly damaged one – the one that only lost its shields fell back in formation as it couldn’t AAF) He braced it, but I was still grinning as my dice were lucky and came up three direct hits and 13pts of damage. He then picked up his 11 dice for brace saves and saved nine of them! D: I’d failed to cripple it, though a quick check showed that 6 shots against a braced cruiser over 2 turns couldn’t have expected as many as 3 hits anyway, so I was still above average. I did get a fire critical, but it was immediately repaired and the Mars promptly missed with its lances.
At this stage, both sides of the board were firmly within minimum range.
So back on the other side of the board, the Chaos ships reloaded Ordnance, and turned to cross my T instead of me crossing theirs. The chaos ships were now at point blank range, directly ahead of my trio. Firepower 18 and 6 lances against capital ship closing at close range – gulp! I immediately braced my Lunar, but that didn’t save it. Four hits from batteries, four from lances, 2 saved, engine room damaged and hull breach! Blazing hulk. Ouch. The dominators each took 2 hits hits from Ordnance after deciding not to brace – after the loss of the Lunar, I couldn’t afford not to lock on next turn.
On the other side of the board, the murders moved their 10cm and immediately turned to present broadsides. Again, he targeted the lead ship, the slightly damaged Lunar, and again capital ship closing was engulfed in firepower 34 and 4 lances, luckily not at close range this time! I braced it anyway, and a majority of his fire interfered with itself because of blast markers. Still, I didn’t save enough of the 6 hits to prevent him getting a shields collapsed critical and crippling it.
So a damaging turn for me. Locking on with the lone Dominators, I moved into the middle of the carrier squadron and fired out both sides, Styx on one side, Dev on the Other. The Styx took FP24 Capital Ship moving away at close range, whilst the Dev took FP24 against capital ship closing. He decided he couldn’t afford to take that amount of firepower, so decided to brace. And failed! Re-roll expended. Failed again! The Dev immediately took 10 hits and hulked. The Styx took 9 hits and a fire critical which it failed to put out. Warp Drive Implosion! All three remaining ships and the Infidels were caught in the blast, leaving behind 2 crippled Dominators and no infidels. The remaining Dev escaped with nothing but blast markers.
So lively as that was, back to the other side of the battlefield. I again locked on with my Dominators, but couldn’t line up such a good shot. The Hades presented Capital Ship Moving away, and after bracing I did it three hull hits and dorsal weapons offline. The Lunar did nothing at all, so it fell to the Mars to cripple the Hades and bring it down to 2 hits left with AC.
Total so far: Chaos have crippled 3 and destroyed 1, Imperials have destroyed 2 and crippled1.
Chaos Turn, and the remaining Dev passes broadside to the Dominators at close range. One broadside, failed brace check, and AC wave later, it’s down to one crippled Dom vs a healthy Dev. Eek. Those AC sure are nasty against crippled ships.
On the other side of the board, an Asteroid field briefly separates the two fleets, giving my Imperials brief respite.
The lack of suppressing fire allows the three operational Nova Cannon to draw a bead on the Dev, forcing it to brace and after 1 direct hit and 1 partial, doing 1 hit past shields. The crippled dominator did one more hit, causing a Port Battery Offline critical and buying itself yet more time.
The murder battlegroup once again crosses the T of the Mars battlegroup. A Dominator takes 1 hit past shields, and the Mars suffers 3. The crippled Dom on the other side of the board takes a further hit from the Dev’s WBs, and it also repairs its critical hit and reloads.
The Imperials are now looking pretty battered, with just one undamaged ship remaining. The crippled Dominator disengages, seeing itself in a no-win situation. The Lunar goes AAF, Ramming Speed! and strikes the lance murder in the flank, coming to rest in BtB. The murder braces, taking 2 hits, with the Lunar remaining undamaged and I figure what the hell, may as well board it! So I put a blast marker on the Lance Murder to help out, and manage to cripple one of the other murders.
The boarding action goes like this:
The Murder has D6(2), Chaos (+1), Enemy Ship Crippled (+2), Enemy on special Orders (+1), Own boarding value twice Enemy’s (+2) for a total of 8.
The Lunar has D6(5), Enemy on Special orders (+1), Blast Markers in contact (+1) for a total of 7, losing by 1 and being reduced to 1hit, which is promptly removed by a fire critical that went unrepared.
Unfortunately, the Murder also suffers a critical hit of Bulkhead Collapsed! and suffers four hits of damage, reducing it to two hits.
Chaos swiftly hits back, disengaging the lance murder and destroying the mars.
At this point we were out of time and had to pack up.
Results:
Imperial Fleet:
Mars, Destroyed, Hulked
Lunar, Destroyed, Hulked
Lunar, Destroyed, Hulked
Dominator, Destroyed, Hulked
Dominator, Disengaged, Crippled, 6 Hits Suffered
Dominator Ld7, 3 Hits Suffered
Dominator Ld9, 2 hits Suffered
2 Ships remaining, 1 Crippled&Disengaged, 4 Destroyed.
Chaos Fleet
Squadroned:
Styx, Destroyed, Atomised
Devastation, Destroyed, Hulked
Devastation, 2 Hits Suffered.
Murder, Ld7, 2 Hits Suffered
Murder, Ld8, 2 Hits Suffered
Murder/lance variant, Disengaged, Crippled, 6 Hits Suffered
Hades, Ld7, Crippled, 6 Hits Suffered
2x Infidel, Ld6 Destroyed
4 Ships remaining (1 of which crippled), 1 Crippled and Disengaged, 2 Destroyed, 2 Escorts lost.
A solid Chaos Victory again. I really miss torpedoes on my capital ships. Quite a few times I had a pretty much perfect shot lined up, and I really felt the loss. by closing the distance quickly and clever use of the squadron and closest target rules, I completely failed to do any concentrated damage to any one ship, which left me very vulnerable at close range. The only thing I think he could have done better was to screen his cruisers with the infidels and force me to fire at them, but to be fair I usually hold my escorts back as well.
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How far apart are you starting?
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Separations were 110cm and 95cm.
Between the two main elements of both fleets at deployment.
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Good reports RCG. Quite a few notable events in the latest battrep. The deadly accuracy by the NC was immediately offset by his great brace saves, but I think that up close the Chaos player came off slightly worse in terms of luck. That double failed brace really damaged his carrier group. If braced I would expect to see one of them crippled or maybe destroyed and the other one just shy of crippling.
Of course, the explosion wouldn't have happened giving the Chaos player a couple of escorts, but then again, your Doms would have been shy of being crippled too, and maybe the braced and crippled carriers wouldn't have been able to do as much damage as the explosion and remaining carrier in the following turn. Still, I expect that the Styx and other Dev surviving would've been better in the long run.
Edit: By the way, though it was nice and unusual to get the ramming ship to finish in base contact, you still shouldn't have boarded.
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I know, but once the Lunar ended up in BtB, I couldn't figure out what else it should do with its 1/4 normal firepower. I realise I probably got luckier than I should have done there.
Edit: A quick Mathammer later and a modifier difference of +4 means I REALLY shouldn't have been boarding. Just a 1/36 chance of a win and 5/6 chance of losing two or more hitpoints. Ouch! I will board with more care in future!
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Separations were 110cm and 95cm.
Between the two main elements of both fleets at deployment.
Does everyone around here start this close?!?! That's only a meter away from each other!
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Given that the standard seperation distance is 60cm between deployment zones, I wouldn't call 110cm close.
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Since the standard 6' x 4' table that the game was designed for is only 120cm wide I don't see how you can think that 110cm is too close. Ships would have to be placed on the very edges of the table to be further away. And what would be the point of doing that exactly? Allow an IN player more room to fire his NC into? Even long range fleets like Chaos want to close the distance to at least 60cm. Unless you're planning on both just sitting at extreme range and spamming AC or using NC, 'Geddon Gun or ABSFs I don't even see the point of setting up on the short table edges.
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Since the standard 6' x 4' table that the game was designed for is only 120cm wide I don't see how you can think that 110cm is too close. Ships would have to be placed on the very edges of the table to be further away. And what would be the point of doing that exactly? Allow an IN player more room to fire his NC into? Even long range fleets like Chaos want to close the distance to at least 60cm. Unless you're planning on both just sitting at extreme range and spamming AC or using NC, 'Geddon Gun or ABSFs I don't even see the point of setting up on the short table edges.
When I'm playing with or against NC, we always deploy on the short table edges. Why should a 'NC player' have to give up range? Unless ofcourse the 'scenery' would prevent such long range fire.
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When I'm playing with or against NC, we always deploy on the short table edges. Why should a 'NC player' have to give up range? Unless ofcourse the 'scenery' would prevent such long range fire.
Because most of the scenarios call for the long table edges to be used.
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That still does not justify why one must give up the advantage of the long reach of one of his weaponsystems.
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?
The scenarios dictate how you set-up, not the choice of your fleet.
Fleet Engagement is very specific on the boxes used after formation choice.
Cruiser Clash is also very clear.
The only scenarios having short edge as mandatory are exterminatus and planetary assault. (And Convoy but well, normally the convoy has no NC ;) ).
Raiders, Surprise Attack attackers choose which side they come on from. And given attack ratings the IN will mostly be defender.
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Well, scenario's mostly suck for NC ship / fleet.
On a 'scenery heavy' table, yes I can understand deployment on the long table edges, firing lanes are very chooked up with asteroid fields and dust clouds etc. In the oposite case, a relatively empty table: no. Why would they hold fire and lose the one advantage they have: very long range fire.
As I said: when handling NC my gaming group deploys on the short table edges if 'terrain' is scarce. Let them enjoy their long reach.
EDIT: these are no arguments for a limitation or not. It's an entirely other discussion.
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Given that the standard seperation distance is 60cm between deployment zones, I wouldn't call 110cm close.
One of these days when there's a game going on I really need to take a picture of our gaming surface. When we take short sides, I'm a good ten meters away, easy.
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If you're deploying using the Scenarios, the enemy should never be more than 120cm away.
If you're not deploying using scenarios, the Nova Cannon only has a range of 150cm anyway, which is less than one extra turn of movement. You could play on a 10km board, and Nova Cannons would not be any more effective.
The same tactics as before should work:
#1. Go AAF as much as possible. Carriers start loaded, so can AAF as well.
#2. Screen your battle line with cheap escorts. If it takes three Nova Cannon shells to waste one cobra/equivalent, job done.
#3. Squadron your first 2-3 cruisers, and always move so that they're an equal distance from the enemy's fleet. This will dilute their fire and magnify the effect of multiple ships with shields.
#4. Allow any ship that's taken more than one or two hits past shields to drop back in formation. Better to allow another cruiser to take some damage than to risk a ship being crippled.
#5. Don't brace unless absolutely necessary - say that despite your squadroning and escort screen the opponent manages to focus 4 or more Nova Cannons on the same target.
Remember, the Nova Cannon is a weapon of terror. Occasionally it can sting you, but for the most part its bark is worse than its bite. The average damage from a Nova shot is in the region of 1.3 hits, and it has to get past shields. The average S6 torp volley will do 1.7 hits, past shields, plus any follow up attacks on subsequent targets, another 0.75 hits on a single target. Call it 0.35 if there's a 50% chance of hitting a second ship.
To match that one turn of damage, the Nova Cannon has to fire an average of three more times than the ship armed with torps. Suppose that the two fleets start out of range and the Imperial ships move up to 150cm first to fire. 1 shot. They get a 2nd shot at 101cm, and a 3rd shot at 52. There should be no fourth shot.
In a fleet with 7 Novas, that's 21 shots. The average leadership is 7.5, so of those 21 shots, just under 9 will shoot at the escort screen. The remaining 12, split between two squadroned ships over 3 turns, can expect an average of 3.3 hits past shields, divided between two cruisers. Of course, all that is assuming open terrain and an Imperial first turn. Even from 160cm starting distance, a chaos fleet still has a pretty good chance of closing too quickly for an Imperial 3rd shot.
The strength of the Nova Cannon is that if the enemy stays at range, it will eventually wear them down without ability to reply, so it forces them to come close into the teeth of torpedos, which will actually do more damage. Spamming Nova Cannons still forces the enemy to come to you, but leaves you almost entirely toothless when they do.
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I know, but one extra shot is one extra shot from x nova cannons a turn. One could be lucky. It is a possibility that should not be taken away because of 'scenario'. But this 'argument' has nothing to do with the topic, so I'll drop it.
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If you're deploying using the Scenarios, the enemy should never be more than 120cm away.
If you're not deploying using scenarios, the Nova Cannon only has a range of 150cm anyway, which is less than one extra turn of movement. You could play on a 10km board, and Nova Cannons would not be any more effective.
The same tactics as before should work:
#1. Go AAF as much as possible. Carriers start loaded, so can AAF as well.
#2. Screen your battle line with cheap escorts. If it takes three Nova Cannon shells to waste one cobra/equivalent, job done.
#3. Squadron your first 2-3 cruisers, and always move so that they're an equal distance from the enemy's fleet. This will dilute their fire and magnify the effect of multiple ships with shields.
#4. Allow any ship that's taken more than one or two hits past shields to drop back in formation. Better to allow another cruiser to take some damage than to risk a ship being crippled.
#5. Don't brace unless absolutely necessary - say that despite your squadroning and escort screen the opponent manages to focus 4 or more Nova Cannons on the same target.
Remember, the Nova Cannon is a weapon of terror. Occasionally it can sting you, but for the most part its bark is worse than its bite. The average damage from a Nova shot is in the region of 1.3 hits, and it has to get past shields. The average S6 torp volley will do 1.7 hits, past shields, plus any follow up attacks on subsequent targets, another 0.75 hits on a single target. Call it 0.35 if there's a 50% chance of hitting a second ship.
To match that one turn of damage, the Nova Cannon has to fire an average of three more times than the ship armed with torps. Suppose that the two fleets start out of range and the Imperial ships move up to 150cm first to fire. 1 shot. They get a 2nd shot at 101cm, and a 3rd shot at 52. There should be no fourth shot.
In a fleet with 7 Novas, that's 21 shots. The average leadership is 7.5, so of those 21 shots, just under 9 will shoot at the escort screen. The remaining 12, split between two squadroned ships over 3 turns, can expect an average of 3.3 hits past shields, divided between two cruisers. Of course, all that is assuming open terrain and an Imperial first turn. Even from 160cm starting distance, a chaos fleet still has a pretty good chance of closing too quickly for an Imperial 3rd shot.
The strength of the Nova Cannon is that if the enemy stays at range, it will eventually wear them down without ability to reply, so it forces them to come close into the teeth of torpedos, which will actually do more damage. Spamming Nova Cannons still forces the enemy to come to you, but leaves you almost entirely toothless when they do.
First, bare in mind that until I talked to horizon a few months ago on warseer, we were still using the 'guess range' for NC. So far though, my experience has been that they're still too powerful. Psychological weapon or no.
Second, I don't typically close. I tend to hang back as far as possible and send in AC.
Third, scenarios work fine on the table, as long as they don't have specific measurements, though some are trickier then others.
Fourth, unless I'm loaded with torps, a tough thing for chaos to pull off, your argument doesn't hold as much weight. Now, if I was still playing fast imperial, or with the new IN fleet I'm still building, then yes, there is some substance to this.
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Well of course you're going to get pounded if you loiter in front of a load of Nova Cannons. As demonstrated above, even Carriers stand a reasonable chance at close range, particularly when the enemy has traded away all of his close range forward firepower.
The problem is clearly the way you play, not the weapon in question. Eldar would routinely get slaughtered too if their fleet commander decided that the best way to engage a WB heavy opponent was to loiter in their broadside WB fire. So I guess WBs should be nerfed as well then?
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Second, I don't typically close. I tend to hang back as far as possible and send in AC.
Well, given a heavy broadside Chaos fleet (Desolator, 2x Carnage, 2x Devestation, 2x Acheron) that tactic is normally good and effective. But when some weird IN players goes all NC you have to prepare and adjust tactics. Every battle needs a tactical thought, you cannot always act the same and while that Chaos fleet can dictate a lot on the field versus the NC it needs to adjust in the pre-game plan. So, move over, get that AAF done and be with it.
And, indeed, if the table is 100metres, the Nova is still 150cm. And perhaps you should close the ranges on the table to get more standards anyway. I also am quite intrigued on how you move a ship in the middle of the table....
edit: A Devestation or Styx in a Chaos fleet has a (max.focus.) broadside of 6 batteries @ 2 lances. That's the same as the average IN gunnery cruiser (Lunar). So...
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First, bare in mind that until I talked to horizon a few months ago on warseer, we were still using the 'guess range' for NC. So far though, my experience has been that they're still too powerful. Psychological weapon or no.
Oookay, but on the other hand you have just been given some very sound advice on how to overcome the NC. Remember, the IN don't get free NC on their ships in addition to what they would otherwise receive. They lose their torps to take them. So an all NC fleet has lost their shotgun.
Second, I don't typically close. I tend to hang back as far as possible and send in AC.
Well to that I say PEBKAC. "Problem exists between keyboard and chair" to coin a phrase. Or how about "user error: replace and retry"? In other words, when facing a NC fleet, CLOSE.
The only time you should "hang back as far as possible and send in AC" against a NC fleet is when you have a pure carrier fleet, ie, not just AC superiority but crushing AC superiority AND have a safe and stable place to park your fleet. Say, in high orbit on the opposite side of a medium to large planet. Short of this, you do not hang back against a NC fleet.
Third, scenarios work fine on the table, as long as they don't have specific measurements, though some are trickier then others.
Look, if you want to play on gargantuan tables, then that's up to you. However, the game and the scenarios are designed for a specific table size, with a little variation possible. Commander's argument for using the short table edges when using NC is that he can't see why they shouldn't get this extra range. Well, I can see a good many reasons why not myself. Maybe the ships weren't expected and so weren't detected until they got close. Maybe they were expected but the direction was unknown so by the time they were detected and the fleet swung around they were closer than the IN would want.
There is reason to suggest that ship sensors just aren't that fantastic. When a ship goes on special orders they give the enemy +1 LD. Presumably the extra signals that they output give the enemy a better idea of what's going on. This suggests their sensors aren't fantastic to begin with. Similarly celestial phenomena such as dust clouds (and BMs) mess with a ships sensors. Mimic engines and holofields each spoof sensors. In escalating engagement we can't even tell what's incoming except as general 'blips on the radar'. So, a combination of unknown enemy activity and unreliable sensor data typically prevent the IN from engaging at extreme range.
In certain tactical scenarios this is changed, such as when defending a planet and you know from which direction the enemy is going to come, etc. In short, the game is designed for no more than a 6' x 4' board, so only really needs to be balanced at this size, with perhaps a little variation.
Fourth, unless I'm loaded with torps, a tough thing for chaos to pull off, your argument doesn't hold as much weight. Now, if I was still playing fast imperial, or with the new IN fleet I'm still building, then yes, there is some substance to this.
What?
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Well to that I say PEBKAC. "Problem exists between keyboard and chair" to coin a phrase. Or how about "user error: replace and retry"? In other words, when facing a NC fleet, CLOSE.
Actually, if you have enough room to maneuver, that's exactly how to beat it. If you're outside the 150cm range and can keep out of it, just pound them with AC or torps. The problem is when you have to fly down their throats when they're defending some sort of objective.
There is reason to suggest that ship sensors just aren't that fantastic. When a ship goes on special orders they give the enemy +1 LD. Presumably the extra signals that they output give the enemy a better idea of what's going on. This suggests their sensors aren't fantastic to begin with. Similarly celestial phenomena such as dust clouds (and BMs) mess with a ships sensors. Mimic engines and holofields each spoof sensors. In escalating engagement we can't even tell what's incoming except as general 'blips on the radar'. So, a combination of unknown enemy activity and unreliable sensor data typically prevent the IN from engaging at extreme range.
Actually, it probably has very little to do with the sensors themselves and more to do with the targeting cogitators that are used in 'current' IN ships to predict target motion and time on target. FFG had an interesting little thing in RT with an archeotech targeting system. Or, at least, that's this week's fluff.
As far as fixing NC, I'd just have them make a non-SO reload test. To offset this a bit, since it would be a tad crippling, add in the special NC shells at similar costs to special torps.
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Actually, if you have enough room to maneuver, that's exactly how to beat it. If you're outside the 150cm range and can keep out of it, just pound them with AC or torps. The problem is when you have to fly down their throats when they're defending some sort of objective.
Eh? How would you expect to do so? Sooner or later you'll run out of table space and still have to face the NC guns. Best way is to close. Staying at range is just begging to be shot to pieces later if not sooner.
As far as fixing NC, I'd just have them make a non-SO reload test. To offset this a bit, since it would be a tad crippling, add in the special NC shells at similar costs to special torps.
Hell yes it would be crippling and not tad. If you want to limit the NC then fix the NC and make it better. Then you put in limits on how many one can bring. Simple enough concept.
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Nova Cannon don't need fixing. I've twice demonstrated how you can face down 7 Nova Cannons from near Maximum Range and take no more than a couple of hits and a few lost escorts. I've given step by step instructions on how it can be accomplished. There's not a thing wrong with Nova Cannons. They force the enemy to close or be punished, but they do nothing to help once the enemy has taken the bait.
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Eh? How would you expect to do so? Sooner or later you'll run out of table space and still have to face the NC guns. Best way is to close. Staying at range is just begging to be shot to pieces later if not sooner.
I believe he's referring to gargantuan tables here.
Actually, it probably has very little to do with the sensors themselves and more to do with the targeting cogitators that are used in 'current' IN ships to predict target motion and time on target. FFG had an interesting little thing in RT with an archeotech targeting system. Or, at least, that's this week's fluff.
Well I'm reasonably sure that they can detect ships from a fair distance, particularly if those ships are at combat readiness, but determining just what type and class those ships are is more difficult. Once an engagement has been initiated it's simply a matter of tracking where each ship has gone. Otherwise it's a bit harder to determine friend from foe. That isn't to say that there aren't also targeting issues that compound this. Both these issues are taken advantage of by Eldar and Dark Eldar each in their own way.
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Eh? How would you expect to do so? Sooner or later you'll run out of table space and still have to face the NC guns. Best way is to close. Staying at range is just begging to be shot to pieces later if not sooner.
Hell yes it would be crippling and not tad. If you want to limit the NC then fix the NC and make it better. Then you put in limits on how many one can bring. Simple enough concept.
Remember, my gaming table is a 20' by 40' apoc table. Not a regular 6'x4'. Pinning someone down or making them run out of room is nearly impossible.
I was improving it. Half the ammo prices, double the amount you can take, and then give NC point limits.
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Again, Nova Cannons do not need a limit. Even on a 20' by 40' table they are no more effective than on a 200cm one. I don't mean to sound bitter, but why is it the core rules mechanics can come under review, but we can't even change a ship profile?
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Remember, my gaming table is a 20' by 40' apoc table. Not a regular 6'x4'. Pinning someone down or making them run out of room is nearly impossible.
I was improving it. Half the ammo prices, double the amount you can take, and then give NC point limits.
I disagree. It'll take quite a bit but you can be cornered. Not impossible. Just difficult.
I don't want NC ammo in exchange for limits. I want better efficiency. Again, simple enough concept.
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Again, Nova Cannons do not need a limit. Even on a 20' by 40' table they are no more effective than on a 200cm one. I don't mean to sound bitter, but why is it the core rules mechanics can come under review, but we can't even change a ship profile?
I agree that the ship profiles need reviewed more then NC does, and also do not understand why this seems to take priority. But, if we're going to talk about it, we might as well share our views on the subject. Personally, I'd just like to see less of them. I find them about as irritating as all basilisk IC lists.
Ok, D'Art, since I missed it someplace here, how would you make it more efficient?
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Less scatter on the bands. Return to FA1.5 (2d6 max scatter).
No limits on the NC.
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Horizon's is one option. My NC rules improve the accuracy by allowing Lock On among other things. My rules are in one of the Warp Rift magazines. NC improved with limits on the number one can take.
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Less scatter on the bands. Return to FA1.5 (2d6 max scatter).
No limits on the NC.
*twitch*
If that's your stat, I'd say there should be a limit, say, 1 to 1 (1 ships of a type without for every one you take). Possible exception for battleships
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Huh? Why? It was the old rules before they nerfed it further (2D6 max). Returning to it would be an improvement but not enough to warrant a 1:1 limit.
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Hmmm.... meh, I'll give that a try first, assuming that I don't beat our member with the all NC fleet into a bloody pulp first. It's one thing to lose, it another to lose to guy that yells 'Fire the Wave Motion Gun!' every time he uses the bloody things.
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another vote for no limits on nova cannon
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I havn't really had a comment on this argument until recently, where it has been my painful pleasure to come up against multiple opponents with nova cannon fleets. The ability to start the game bombarding you with potentially crippling shots in your own DZ was quite a reminder of the NC power.
I found that this was especially effective against large base ships.
This becomes even more dramatic once you enter the 2d6 and 1d6 band.
Scattering 1d6 on a large base is almost as good as a direct hit, and due to some below average BFI dice, my Battleship and Grand Cruiser
were both crippled by nova cannons before they could close to 30cm, along with a cumulative 5 hits on my cruisers. This was with below than 33%
hit ratio.
I really love the idea of the IN torpedo wall, but multiple novas have been proven to be more effective, at least against my Chaos fleet.
Actually improving the nova is ludicrous.
I propose no limit, but the innacurate weapons always scatter 3d6.
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Then always be prepared to see NC fleets because the inaccuracy will always push people to bring in more NCs to offset said inaccuracy.
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Then always be prepared to see NC fleets because the inaccuracy will always push people to bring in more NCs to offset said inaccuracy.
But if they're more powerful, wouldn't we see people take more of them because they're powerful?
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Admiral, you're a pretty rational guy. Gotta say thats the weirdest logic I've seen you type out :)
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Then always be prepared to see NC fleets because the inaccuracy will always push people to bring in more NCs to offset said inaccuracy.
But if they're more powerful, wouldn't we see people take more of them because they're powerful?
You make them more powerful, then you institute the limits. 1 in 500 or 1 in 750. At least now you have a reliable weapon but not have easy access to it. I think it's the better route.
Admiral, you're a pretty rational guy. Gotta say thats the weirdest logic I've seen you type out :)
What's weird about it? The NC as it is right now has been nerfed so bad that the only way to really make it be felt in the game is to bring them en masse. Otherwise, it's a waste of points if you bring it in singles or doubles. It's why I would not want limits on it.
Now make it more accurate so that it will really be a threat. Then I would agree to putting in the limits which the HA is proposing.
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Its good in multiples, yes. That wouldn't change regardless of the scatter range. Saying making something worse encourages more of something doesnt make sense to me. Its good in multiples like everything in the game. It is not useless. A single nova can reduce a ships range by -5, strip shields off of multiple escorts, and be a terror to ordnance. It lets you reach into the opponent's deployment zone and potentially do alot of damage.
The deployment zone. If you think its worthless, then I really can't argue with you.
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Well I can, since I agree with Adm.A. :)
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You guys have the wonderful guts to have multiple points stated at you and respond proudly with 'Nuhuh!'. I admire that :)
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A single nova can reduce a ships range by -5, strip shields off of multiple escorts, and be a terror to ordnance.
If a single Nova Cannon could do that all with one shot I agree on a limit.
Strip shields off multiple escorts? Think about your escort placement.
Your large bases are hit easier in smaller bands? That is below 60cm/45cm, so within shooting range of your large base vessels for certain. Use that shooting. NC cannot be shot on BFI. :)
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Well see, I was the one on BFI, because novas were busy crippling my ships, so the return fire was paltry to the prow armor.
If you get those escorts spaced wider than you can fit a nova cannon between them, good job. But then they arent supporting each other for turrets, at least. And the other 2 points are quite valid.
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A single nova can reduce a ships range by -5, strip shields off of multiple escorts, and be a terror to ordnance.
If a single Nova Cannon could do that all with one shot I agree on a limit.
Strip shields off multiple escorts? Think about your escort placement.
Your large bases are hit easier in smaller bands? That is below 60cm/45cm, so within shooting range of your large base vessels for certain. Use that shooting. NC cannot be shot on BFI. :)
Unless it has lances out to 60cm, you're unlikely to lose a ship on it's first round of shooting, particularly against most IN cruisers 6+ front armor. Unless your facing down a Desolator, take the shot, you'll do much more damage to them then you can lose to a loss from failing to BFI against a non-lance BB. And with the blast markers, most BBs will be spending some time in NC country.
A cruiser loss is a shame. A battleship loss can be crippling.
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Escorts can be spaced 15cm. Massed turrets isn't needed at long ranges.
NC at my battleships! Good! They have 4 shields which protect against NC. So NC needs to roll HIT or have a low scatter (above 60cm 3d6, count your non-direct hits) and then a 5 or 6 to do 1 point of damage.
Ha!
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You guys have the wonderful guts to have multiple points stated at you and respond proudly with 'Nuhuh!'. I admire that :)
Actually, I've posted two battle reports and a series of very good advice for dealing with Nova Cannons. No limits, no changes.
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Escorts can be spaced 15cm. Massed turrets isn't needed at long ranges.
NC at my battleships! Good! They have 4 shields which protect against NC. So NC needs to roll HIT or have a low scatter (above 60cm 3d6, count your non-direct hits) and then a 5 or 6 to do 1 point of damage.
Ha!
Um, Horizon, I looked it up, just to be sure, because you know me and these new fangled rules, but I'm not sure where you get that need to roll a five or six from since it does d6 hits armor or no.
And I'm fairly sure that 8 nova cannons in the lowest band will still score enough hits to kill the BB, unless you're rolling some really impressive brace for impacts. And at speed 5 for IN, you're probably going to get hit again. Chaos at 15, maybe, maybe not.
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Shields protect vs Nova Cannon. Since version 1999. Never changed.
8 NC in lowest band able to fire = bad attack plan.
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Why?
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Doh, if you allow the IN to do that you forgot to do something.
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8 Nova Cannon firing at a BB, 3.33 target the escort screen instead, 3.11 direct hits accounting for scatter, 1.556 partial hits, 12.4 hits total. 4 absorbed by shields, braced, 4.22 hits past shields and saves.
Note that 45cm is also well within torpedo range, with the torpedos able to be fired all but unavoidably into the path of the battleship. 48 torps, the equivalent of 8 Nova Cannons, would do 6 hits past shields and bracing, not including damage to other ships caught in the path.
Also, 8 Nova Cannons would only be found in a fleet of 2000pts, in which you could have two battleships squadroned together and taking perhaps 2 hits each without even having to brace.
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It is not useless.
Yes it is in ones or twos.
A single nova can reduce a ships range by -5,
At which point, the enemy ship can go AAF.
strip shields off of multiple escorts,
Placement issues as noted.
and be a terror to ordnance.
If the NC is shooting at ordnance, be my guest.
It lets you reach into the opponent's deployment zone and potentially do alot of damage.
The deployment zone. If you think its worthless, then I really can't argue with you.
"Potentially do a lot of damage" which just like on the other end of the spectrum, "potentially do squat."
Again in ones or twos, worthless. In threes or more, then it gets better.
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Note that 45cm is also well within torpedo range, with the torpedos able to be fired all but unavoidably into the path of the battleship. 48 torps, the equivalent of 8 Nova Cannons, would do 6 hits past shields and bracing, not including damage to other ships caught in the path.
Not to get too technical or anything but if you're firing straight down the guts of a closing BB then you could ensure a hit from as far away as 98 odd cm, assuming no fighter interception (which potentially can be avoided by having your own escorting fighters) and no use of burn retros. 20cm ship movement, 30cm torp movement, 15cm BB movement (turns to avoid impact), 30cm torpedo movement and base radius. Without use of Burn Retros a 20cm speed BB can't actually manoeuvre out of the torps path. A 45° turn +5cm movement does not take its base out of the path of the torpedoes. Of course, if there's a BM in the path of the IN cruiser then this reduces the range a little, and the BB player could choose to only move minimum movement (maybe intending to put another ship in the torps path), in which case the reach is only 88cm odd.
What I meant about a fighter escort is just sending in some fighters alongside to clear CAP and enemy torps in the path in your opponents ordnance phase. Also you'd want them to be in front of your torps so your opponent has to go through or around your fighter screen to knock out the torps. He may not have enough fighters within range to do so. This is obviously not a guaranteed attack at this range, since your opponent will have a good chance of intercepting, however it will be his only option, since he can't manoeuvre.
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Hmm. Fighters being able to CAP with torps would be interesting.
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Hmmm.
20cm ship movement +30cm torp movement.
15cm BB movement + 30cm torp movement
30cm torp movement.
Direct hit from 125cm with torps. Sure, the enemy has 3 Ordnance Phases and a movement and gunnery phase to intercept them, but that shows that the Nova doesn't even really have that much additional range when targetting BBs.
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Make a new Imperial supergun. Call it the Pwneratus Imperator. Sounds like about what you are looking for.
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8 Nova Cannon firing at a BB, 3.33 target the escort screen instead, 3.11 direct hits accounting for scatter, 1.556 partial hits, 12.4 hits total. 4 absorbed by shields, braced, 4.22 hits past shields and saves.
Note that 45cm is also well within torpedo range, with the torpedos able to be fired all but unavoidably into the path of the battleship. 48 torps, the equivalent of 8 Nova Cannons, would do 6 hits past shields and bracing, not including damage to other ships caught in the path.
Also, 8 Nova Cannons would only be found in a fleet of 2000pts, in which you could have two battleships squadroned together and taking perhaps 2 hits each without even having to brace.
Gothic, you're assuming that none of the firing ships are squadroned, thus using higher then average ld to ignore the escorts. My usual experience is the escorts take 0-2 NC hits if they aren't primary.
And, you can do 7 in 1500, if my math is right. You can almost do 8, but it takes it over to about 1550.
Also in the time those torps get there, you can fire NC twice.
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7 is the maximum number of NC possible in a 1500 point fleet. It can be done using all dominators or all lunars though there is a small bit of play with the dominators that can get you a Mars and still maintain 7 NC.
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Hmmm.
20cm ship movement +30cm torp movement.
15cm BB movement + 30cm torp movement
30cm torp movement.
Direct hit from 125cm with torps. Sure, the enemy has 3 Ordnance Phases and a movement and gunnery phase to intercept them, but that shows that the Nova doesn't even really have that much additional range when targetting BBs.
Well if your enemy is running a pure gunfleet (say by agreement), then BBs are particularly susceptible to long range torp salvos, at least if they're approaching you squarely.
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Make a new Imperial supergun. Call it the Pwneratus Imperator. Sounds like about what you are looking for.
Who is? What is?
Capping torps? Essentially you can do it already, just place fighters in front of torpedoes and let them eliminate cap. Especially at shotgun range. Real cap on torps seems odd.
BaronI, 0-2 hits? If not primary... odd word choice. If the LD test is failed they are primary. Then your placement is again iffy. Space'em.
The all NC fleet will have less ordnance so massing turrets isn't needed as told.
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Make a new Imperial supergun. Call it the Pwneratus Imperator. Sounds like about what you are looking for.
Who is? What is?
Capping torps? Essentially you can do it already, just place fighters in front of torpedoes and let them eliminate cap. Especially at shotgun range. Real cap on torps seems odd.
BaronI, 0-2 hits? If not primary... odd word choice. If the LD test is failed they are primary. Then your placement is again iffy. Space'em.
The all NC fleet will have less ordnance so massing turrets isn't needed as told.
..... by 'primary' I meant the target that everything was supposed to be aimed at, not necessarily what everything ended up being aimed at.
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Make a new Imperial supergun. Call it the Pwneratus Imperator. Sounds like about what you are looking for.
If the comment is directed at me, I suggest you go read the NC rules I made published in one of the Warp Rift magazines. That's the NC that I am looking for.
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Another way to look at the nova, besides the large blast being able to hit multiple things, destroy ordnance, reduce leadership and reduce speed,
is thinking of it as a lance with a minimum range and nearly infinite range. 'Hey, you have a prow lance. It suffers -1 to hit and you can't reroll it, but if it hits it does d6 points of auto damage. Oh and it can scatter and has a template if you miss'
Doesn't sound horribly innacurate in that light. I think we are forgetting that other weapons can miss too :)
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Other weapons don't have proposals to limit them in numbers.
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Make a new Imperial supergun. Call it the Pwneratus Imperator. Sounds like about what you are looking for.
Actually, we are thinkering about that ;)
Big lines of what we came up with, not playtested, not finished yet either.
- The nova cannon is a heavy long range artillerypiece using the normal guntable. One additional right column shift for firing over 60 cm.
- Make it an equivalent of FP6, roll to hit as normal, a hit doing D6 damage, shields 'absorbs' damage as normal. The multiple hits indicating its accuracy is better at short ranges but only one D6 is rolled for damage.
- no min range.
It's also possible we ditch the concept.
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Other weapons don't have proposals to limit them in numbers.
Well, NUMBERS maybe, but some rather entertaining proposals for making AC another form of gun have come to light...
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It seems this discussion is devolving rapidly. Anything starting with "But it might" just preys on the fear of potential without providing any solid reasoning for the weapon being OP. It's no different than saying "but S6 torpedoes might cripple a battleship, therefore they need a nerf." Right now we have four battle reports and one pseudo report from eudaimon that provide data. Two from nate where the opposing fleet got pasted and two from RCGothic where the NC fleet got pasted plus the report from eudaimon where the NC fleet got pasted.
Neither of Nate's reports makes any serious use of AAF to close the distance with the NC fleet and chaos is quick to brace. Both result in the chaos fleet taking a severe beating. (not to mention scatters guided by Him on Terra)
The remaining reports make use of AAF and result in the destruction of the IN fleet.
Now what I think we can gather from this is two things. AAF is ESSENTIAL to effectively dealing with the NC fleet as is attempting to deploy to minimize the opportunities the NC can shoot. Secondly, loitering in front of NC will kill you since the more they shoot the more likely you are going to take a direct hit with a damage roll above a two.
For those who say that the NC is OP and devastates enemy fleets, post some battle reports so we can get more data and see why your group has difficulty with NC. (LS this includes you since you've become quite vocal about limiting them) Unfortunately, with the holidays fast approaching and several deadlines I'm probably not going to have an opportunity to get any game in myself, but lets get some more data on this. :)
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How about:
90cm, 3d6 scatter, no minimum distance.
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LS, why not just say roll the scatter dice and it you hit then it does d6 damage and if you miss nothing happens. 3d6 is far too predictable a result. Second, the NC is supposed to be extremely long range artillery style weapon and starting on long edges you should be in range on the first turn anyway even with 90cm so why bother?
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I meant 3d6 scatter on a miss, still rolling to hit on the scatter dice.
You are right, on a 4x4 table you only have a few centimeters of wiggle room at the end of the board where the nova couldn't reach.
However, thats only straight down. During deployment it would give you the ability to deploy laterally and at least have somewhere to run from concentrated fire, especially on a 6x4 board you have a lot more freedom to keep from being bombarded as you sit in your DZ.
On the other hand, there was never a fluff reason why NC couldnt shoot below 30cm, just a balancing act to make it feel more like arty.
I think perhaps this will hopefully satisfy both parties. It also gives vessels that require larger bases to support themselves a small bit of mercy.
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yes, I know what you are saying. What I am saying is 3d6 on a miss is extremely predictable. Unless you roll 3 ones (low probability) you will always miss this makes it useless to even bother rolling them.
Seriously... you can do FAR more to limit the NC by just using more celestial phenomena. There isn't any need to limit the range because it does little to limit how soon it engages unless you play short edges which can be more easily controlled using terrain. Go back and look where the NC thread ended. Ray even posted the end result for you.
Here:
So an even more stream-lined version would be: 30cm-150cm range (back to 30cm for balance).
Scatter dice with D6cm scatter, where a hit is 0cm scatter.
D6 damage with the hole over the stem, D3 with the hole over the base, 1 damage with the outer template over the base.
No benefit for being on Lock-on.
You have to target a ship/defence or ordy marker/wave. Target priority is identical to other weapons, so you must pass a leadership test not to shoot the closest target.
You may not have more capital ships with NC's as without.
That I mostly agree with, but I think there should be a better mechanism than d3 hits. Yes it is used in epic and other games but I just find the whole concept odd. Either just do 2 hits or some other way of dealing with it. Makes the NC more accurate but it does limit how often you will see the d6 hits. the limit to the number you take means you won't see 6 NC in a fleet. At most it should end up with around 3.
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is the center hole not touching at 4 centimeters? Its certainly is on a large base. It still is 1/3 chance of d6 hits, and scatter does 1/d6 hits to other things. I had 2 direct hit scatters in my last game on ships in the squadron of the ship targeted.
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It still hasn't been demonstrated that Nova Cannons are any more deadly than torpedoes. Also: There is somewhere to run where you can get out of range of the nova Cannons. Within 30cm. Every single Chaos ship outguns its non-torpedo counterpart.
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Other than torps being much more easy to deal with? Not even worth discussion, completely different.
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I'm with RCgothic on this. The NC isn't the overpowered. Neither is a full NC list. It just needs a different tactic to take care of.
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is the center hole not touching at 4 centimeters? Its certainly is on a large base. It still is 1/3 chance of d6 hits, and scatter does 1/d6 hits to other things. I had 2 direct hit scatters in my last game on ships in the squadron of the ship targeted.
LS, the center hole wouldn't touch the stem with a 1cm scatter on any ship so you would NEVER get d6 hits if it scatters. That means with the rules I posted up there you would take d3 hits on a 2cm scatter with a cruiser base and 1 hit any time after that. I really don't know how you people end up with so many direct hit scatters. In all my games of BFG (and I have NC every game) I've only had the thing scatter onto another ship once... and that was my own ship.
30cm torpedo shotguns aren't easier to deal with. NC does gradual damage on teh way in, torpedoes smack you when you are inside 30.
In any event I also agree that the NC isn't overpowered.
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Other than torps being much more easy to deal with? Not even worth discussion, completely different.
6 Torpedoes will do as much damage in one turn of firing than a Nova Cannon will do in three. A Nova Cannon will be extremely lucky to get three turns of firing.
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A nova only has to touch the base with the center hole, not the stem, for the D6, does it not?
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I think there's a miscommunication on what NC rule is being discussed.
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yes, I think you are correct there does seem to be some confusion.
LC, under the current rules, yes it does d6 damage if the center hole touches anywhere on the base. Under the rules proposed by Ray, the center hole would do d6 on the stem only and d3 over the base.
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Ah. For a moment I was thinking I had taken way too many direct nova hits :)
What about this:
90cm, scatter dii and 2d6 scatter if miss, no minimum distance.
Or 3d6 scatter and stem d6 and d3 on base.
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Ah. For a moment I was thinking I had taken way too many direct nova hits :)
That's absurd. Will never happen. :)
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No. Let me try again with Ray's:
So an even more stream-lined version would be: 30cm-150cm range (back to 30cm for balance).
Scatter dice with D6cm scatter, where a hit is 0cm scatter.
D6 damage with the hole over the stem, D3 with the hole over the base, 1 damage with the outer template over the base.
No benefit for being on Lock-on.
You have to target a ship/defence or ordy marker/wave. Target priority is identical to other weapons, so you must pass a leadership test not to shoot the closest target.
You may not have more capital ships with NC's as without.
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Thats pretty powerful. Essentially, a large based ship will never take less than d3 hits from a nova.
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Not true. A large base ship can only scatter 3cm and still have the hole over the base. That means it will only take d3 hits 50% of the time which will have the same effect as the center hole scattering off the base 33% of the time. I think that means with scatter against a large base you will result in one hit around 66% of the time.
Now, large base ships tend to have 3-4 shields which means you are doing diddly squat against them. I really wouldn't be concerned since this means that against small based ships which account for the vast majority of your fleet you'd have an even higher probability of doing only a single hit.
The NC HAS to have some bite or it's just not worth taking which is where you seem to want it to be.
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And, on a normal table you can have two to three NC shots max.
I take about two NC in my fleets. With some good and concentrated shooting (new rules), I can put some damage on ships before the NC become useless.
1:1 seems allright to me.
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New battle report:
Seeing as how the IN player is spamming NCs, for this battle report I felt it only fair that the Chaos player can spam Slaughters, so with a little bit of Proxying, Steve put forth this list:
Warmaster Ld8
Pair of Slaughters Ld8(WM) & Ld9
Pair of Slaughters Ld6 & Ld 8
Pair of Slaughters Ld7 & Ld7
Pair of Slaughters Ld6 & Ld8
4 Iconoclasts Ld8
I used the same 1500pt list as before:
Admiral Ld8
Mars Ld8 (Admiral)
Pair of Dominators Ld7 & Ld8
Pair of Dominators Ld7 & Ld8
Pair of Lunars Ld7 & Ld9
Deployment ended up 110cm apart, with the Imperials forming a tight group around the Mars, and Chaos spread behind a skirmish line of Iconoclasts in a thin arc equi-distant to the Imperials at about 120cm.
Imperials got first turn, moved forward 10cm, and targetted the Warmaster's Slaughter. 1 squadron failed the check and shot at the Iconoclasts, missing and doing nothing. The other five Novas scored one direct hit, and 2 points of damage, with a blast marker on the other ship in the squadron.
The entire Chaos fleet went AAF (after using up the re-roll), with the Iconoclasts (50cm) closing to 50cm of the Imperial fleet, and the Slaughter pairs moved 51cm (WMaster 56-5cm), 51cm, 48 and 36cm to close to between 59cm and 74cm.
The Imperial fleet moved forwards 10cm to 40cm from the Iconoclasts and 49-58 from the cruisers, and fired again. Again, one squadron failed its leadership test and fired on the Iconoclasts. The Nova Cannons scored two direct hits against the closest Iconoclast, rolling a 6 and a 2 to obliterate it four times over. At this stage, Steve was doing a slow hand clap. "[sarcasm]Nice one mate! You killed the **** out of that destroyer![/sarcasm]. The other five shots scored one direct hit on the Warmaster's vessel, doing 1pt of damage, and the other four scattered.
The Chaos fleet closed to entirely within 40cm and went abeam across the Imperial vessel's prows. Firepower 121 and 16 lances leapt out at the closest Imperial Dominator Squadron, which despite bracing took 19 hits, hulking one of them, with 1 hit carrying over to the shields of the second Dominator.
The Imperials, now well within Nova cannon minimum range were a bit stuffed for options. With 6 ships remaining, 1 of which braced, they could go abeam and lose to the Slaughter's overwhelming firepower, or they could attempt to break the line, which is what they chose to do. They moved 20cm towards the Chaos lines, and managed to get a couple of shots off, which were mostly absorbed by shields. The Iconoclasts were obliterated.
In the Chaos turn, two squadrons went on Lock On orders, whilst the second half swung round to maintain a close-range fire.
The Locked on Squadrons managed 19 hits against the closing lead Lunar Squadron, turning one into a blazing hulk.
A third squadron crippled the Mars, which needed to reload and so refused to brace, doing 4 hits past shields.
The fourth squadron did three hits on the orphaned Dominator, which had braced.
So at the end of turn three, it looked like:
Chaos fleet, 8 Capital ships remaining, none braced, 3 hits past shields on the Warmaster's ship, 4 Iconoclasts lost.
Imperial fleet: 5 Capital ships remaining, of which 2 braced and 1 crippled.
This was a bad tactical situation, and only going to go more Chaos's way, but I decided to see what one more turn brought.
The undamaged Dominators went on Lock On, and managed to get between the two ships of one undamaged Slaughter squadron, Moving Away/Closing at close range. The squadron braced, with the closing slaughter being crippled with 5 hits, and moving away slaughter being crippled with 4 hits. The remainder of the fleet managed to get only abeam profiles, with the orphaned Dominator the only other ship managing to line up both broadsides, but was braced.
The focused fire of the rest of the fleet failed to get through shields.
Steve disengaged the damaged slaughters, and went Lock On with the two squadrons which had turned in the previous turn, whilst the final squadron turned around the Imperials. One pair of Lock-On Slaughters did 3 hits past shields to the lone Dominator, which braced, and it was finished off by the non-locked on slaughters. The second pair of locked on slaughters targeted the Mars, which evaporated in a Plasma Drive overload, which put blast markers in contact with the shields of the remaining Dominators and did a hit on the Lunar.
At this stage the Imperials were outnumbered 2-1 by nastier ships and were not pointing the right direction. I disengaged.
The tally was: Imperial kills: 4 destroyer escorts and 2 crippled/disengaged slaughters. (2 Capital Ships Crippled/Disengaged)
Chaos kills: 2 Dominators, 1 Lunar and 1 Mars. (4 Capital Ships Destroyed)
This was a massacre victory to Chaos.
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There's nothing overpowered about the Nova Cannon. They barely compete with Torpedoes as is, even without a points premium - I only usually take them when I want a Dominator's FP12. If a Tyrant was FP12 @30cm base for 180pts I would never take a Dominator.
DO NOT change or limit the NC.
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Barely compete? They start a lap ahead ;)
Well not really. But one option can be negated by turrets, armor, attack craft, and manouvering. Barely compete my patooty.
Think its a balanced battle report to spam the fastest and cheapest cruiser in the Chaos fleet against something with a minimum range? Discount! :p
With 1d6 it would mean that large bases are getting at least one hit on them, every time. That marker isn't ever not completely off it.
So with a third chance of a D6, a third of a D3, and a third of a single hit, thats 2.16 hits on average to a large base ship from every nova cannon shot, under your proposal.
Novas are much less common than torps, so a limit would make fluff sense in the same way it does for the Voss patterns.
I would however like to find an option that makes NC balanced at 90cm-0cm. Maybe the D3 idea would work with that, if it scattered 2d6.
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Even with the rules being proposed by Vaaish/Ray Bell, I wouldn't agree to a limitation. Still not that great. Now, allow Lock On on it (and I don't get why one can't Lock On, fluff wise and even rules wise), then i would agree to a 1 in 500 rule. Even 1 in 750.
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LS, you really just want NC to always scatter off base don't you? It doesn't matter what the proposed rules are you just want to see the NC do nothing on the table. This makes the 3rd report where Chaos went AAF and obliterated the IN NC fleet. Second, he didn't even score that great of damage when he did fire. Are you not seeing that?
I only posted Ray's rules because yours were so off base to the point of total uselessness to give you some perspective. I still think the NC is underpowered because it is too predictable at long range and easily avoided as noted in the previous battle reports. As I said earlier, play some games and try new tactics before posting new rules for the NC.
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Well not really. But one option can be negated by turrets, armor, attack craft, and manouvering.
And Nova Cannons can be negated by using strategy and tactics. I'd already done two reports of the Chaos player being reasonable in the face of NC spam (And Chaos still won), so I decided to post the sort of list a Chaos player would field if he ever got bored of the IN player providing him with an I Win Button. And as expected, the Slaughter Spam list annihilated the NC Spam list and atomised the bits.
NO to any limit. NO to any changes.
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Well not really. But one option can be negated by turrets, armor, attack craft, and manouvering.
And Nova Cannons can be negated by using strategy and tactics.
NO to any limit. NO to any changes.
Yes to limits, meh to changes.
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Yes to limits, meh to changes.
Can't or don't want to figure out how to win eh?
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LS, you really just want NC to always scatter off base don't you? It doesn't matter what the proposed rules are you just want to see the NC do nothing on the table. This makes the 3rd report where Chaos went AAF and obliterated the IN NC fleet. Second, he didn't even score that great of damage when he did fire. Are you not seeing that?
I only posted Ray's rules because yours were so off base to the point of total uselessness to give you some perspective. I still think the NC is underpowered because it is too predictable at long range and easily avoided as noted in the previous battle reports. As I said earlier, play some games and try new tactics before posting new rules for the NC.
Thats quite a straw-man you built there :)
The nova is currently a very useful tool, and no matter what has been proposed, at its root you still have a 1/3 chance of d6 hits, and its why you see them in so many lists.
How were mine off base to the point of uselessness? You need to try some sort of real argument if you are going to use statements that strong.
@RC
'Strategy and tactics' is something I've heard way too many times in my wargaming history to cover the fact that there are no real strategy and tactics. So to keep from looking like that, fill that gap with the strategy and tactic you like using.
And, ya, Slaughters are like the absolute best thing to combat NC. How much terrain was on the board, out of curiosity.
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Not really, a straw man would be if I superficially changed your argument and then proceeded to refute it. I did neither. I did infer from your rules that you'd like the NC to do jack squat and pointed you to the evidence that has been gathering that the NC is not overpowered and thus your changes were unwarranted.
Your rules were off base because you are reducing the range and increasing the scatter. Ie, you make the NC even less accurate and give a player less time to use it if you follow the reasoning you gave about shooting across diagonals. That gives a player less incentive to use the thing at all. You are further nerfing a weapon that HAS NO PROOF of being overpowered as it stands. Prove it's overpowered before trying to nerf it. Since that's your premise it's on you to prove it.
You see the NC in so many lists because it's iconic to the IN. That's their one special feature and it generally needs three to be effective. Any less and it's just flavor for the list that might do something here or there but certainly won't kill a fleet. Even with the maximum number of NC you can get in a 1500 point fleet you are looking at maybe two hits a turn and you've got the same odds of doing 1 hit as 6.
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Yes to limits, meh to changes.
Can't or don't want to figure out how to win eh?
I'd say something smarmy, but that statement was just arrogant enough for the both of us. Though with that attitude, at least I wouldn't have to worry about ever losing against you. (assuming that I've got the 20xxFAQ down yet)
I actually agree with Vaaish and like Ray's idea (having gotten to read some of his stuff that I didn't have, I appreciate his insights on the game). But, rather then add my usual vitriolic personality to the mix, I figured that he and LS could argue the point well enough.
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I did infer from your rules that you'd like the NC to do jack squat and pointed you to the evidence that has been gathering that the NC is not overpowered and thus your changes were unwarranted.
It doesn't do jack squat, it has rules.
Your rules were off base because you are reducing the range and increasing the scatter. Ie, you make the NC even less accurate and give a player less time to use it if you follow the reasoning you gave about shooting across diagonals. That gives a player less incentive to use the thing at all. You are further nerfing a weapon that HAS NO PROOF of being overpowered as it stands. Prove it's overpowered before trying to nerf it. Since that's your premise it's on you to prove it.
Its only reduced range in 6x4 tables at extreme angles. If you actually read what I wrote you will see the IN player actually has more oppurtunity to use the NC with no minimum range. I've been arguing it as best I can in pages back. Its on you to read what you are arguing against.
You see the NC in so many lists because it's iconic to the IN. That's their one special feature and it generally needs three to be effective. Any less and it's just flavor for the list that might do something here or there but certainly won't kill a fleet. Even with the maximum number of NC you can get in a 1500 point fleet you are looking at maybe two hits a turn and you've got the same odds of doing 1 hit as 6.
Thats great. I take 60cm range weapons because its iconic in Chaos. It just feels so fluffy using them, I just take at least 3 even if they are suboptimal weapons. And at 1500 you are averaging 8 hits a turn on directs. If you can point out anything besides generalities about proposed variations besides your favorite one, I'd sure appreciate it.
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It doesn't do jack squat, it has rules.
Your point is? You can give things as many rules as you want but it doesn't make them effective and what you proposed will make them less effective, in other words do jack squat.
Its only reduced range in 6x4 tables at extreme angles. If you actually read what I wrote you will see the IN player actually has more oppurtunity to use the NC with no minimum range. I've been arguing it as best I can in pages back. Its on you to read what you are arguing against.
Who said I was arguing against the no minimum range? My issue is the max range being taken down by 60cm and the 3d6 scatter at all ranges. 3d6 effectively makes the NC lay one bm or do nothing at all if you roll a miss on the scatter. It's rather predictable.
Seriously... Just look at the battle reports. There is a pattern of the NC being fine and not cracking open a cruiser each turn except when using Nates magic dice.
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Warmaster Ld8
Pair of Slaughters Ld8(WM) & Ld9
Pair of Slaughters Ld6 & Ld 8
Pair of Slaughters Ld7 & Ld7
Pair of Slaughters Ld6 & Ld8
4 Iconoclasts Ld8
Why on earth didn't he squadron the WM with one of the Ld 7 ships? It would have added +1 leadership to that squadron and also (technically) added +1 leadership to the other squadron, since his leadership 8 is supposed to override the leadership 9 of the other ship, in effect reducing that squadron to leadership 8.
The Nova Cannons scored two direct hits against the closest Iconoclast, rolling a 6 and a 2 to obliterate it four times over. At this stage, Steve was doing a slow hand clap. "[sarcasm]Nice one mate! You killed the **** out of that destroyer![/sarcasm]. The other five shots scored one direct hit on the Warmaster's vessel, doing 1pt of damage, and the other four scattered.
Ha, very funny. ;D Still, if you hadn't have failed your leadership test those hits would have been on the WMs ship, which combined with the hits it had already taken would have been enough to obliterate it. This proves two things. One; it's possible for NC to be effective and two; it's possible to spoof their fire with proper tactical positioning of escorts.
@LS
While an all Slaughter fleet would be a perfect counter for a low AC all NC fleet, it is no more beardy than the all NC fleet. Also, a more viable and common "beardy" fleet would be an all Dev fleet. This would do just as well against the all NC fleet.
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Well ya Sig, no doubt its equally beardy. But the point of the batrep was to prove NC aren't OP, and an all Slaughter fleet was chosen to take it on.
Like throwing a tiger in a shark tank to prove that tigers aren't OP ;)
@Vaaish
Firstly, when I suggest things, I don't do it to rage until it happens. I do it because I'm just posting suggestions I havn't playtested or know nothing about. So I throw out 3d6. If you read my posts, later I mentioned 2d6 being an alternative.
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Well... I guess I'll do a batrep... 5 KKs against 4 dominators! Orks are noted as bad against NCs due to their speed, and lack of AAF. One warlord and the cheapest IN commander will be chosen.
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True, Orks vs NC fleets are perhaps the ideal setup for an NC fleet. Though the free Ork AAF should be used all the time. And Terrors. Terrors are much better then KK's.
Also: Take either a regular Ork fleet or a Deadshane Ork fleet.
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IN fleet:
Dominator 8 Fleet admiral 1
Dominator 8 2
Dominator 8 3
Dominator 6 4
Ork Fleet:
Kill-Kroozer 7 Warlord 1
Kill-Kroozer 5 2
Kill-Kroozer 8 3
Kill-Kroozer 7 4
Kill-Kroozer 8 5
Set up:
The game was played in the primary biosphere, with 1 small planet in the corner. The IN player won the dice off for choosing deployment zone and chose the side with the planet (to prevent the orks from hiding).
The IN set up at the table edge, and the ork ships set up one opposite of each vessel, and the additional kroozer set up between two.
First turn: Orks
Orks won the dice off, and AAF towards the enemy vessels.
First turn IN:
The In drifted 10cm forward, the two edge dominators turned to face the center KKs and fired their nova cannons.
Dom 4 LD to shoot at not nearest target, pass. Fires at KK2 and causes 6! points of damage. No criticals.
Dom 1 LD to shoot at KK2 pass. Miss.
Dom 2 LD to shoot at KK2 pass. Miss.
Dom 3 shoots at KK2. Miss.
Orks turn 2:
Fleet AAF towards dominators. KK2 is slowed significantly.
KK4+5 shoot at dom1. they manage to get 3 hits, cause a critical of thrusters damaged. (not like the ship cared)
KK1 rolls ld to shoot at dominator 1 fails. Shoots at dom2 instead, takes down a shield.KK
KK2 rolls ld to shoot at dom2 fails. Shoots at dom3. Nothing
KK3 shoots at dom4. Nothing.
IN turn 2:
Dominator 1 is slowed and is forced to sit on the two BMs.
Dom4 shoots it's nova cannon at kk2 (now closest thing in forward arc) Hit! for 1.
Dom3 fires at KK2, miss.
Dom2 too close to fire at KK1 fires at kk2 HIT! for 1. no critical.
Dom1 too close to kk4 fires at kk5 HIT for 5. 1 critical, shields collapse.
Dom 4 fires it's weapons batteries at KK3, now in its side arc. Fail.
Dom1 fails to repair.
Ork turn 3:
KK3 attempts lock on pass! Moves within 15 of dom4's side arc. KK4 attempts lock on fail, re-roll still fail.
KK4 shoots at Dom1 with guns and heavy guns (yes I took them). Dom1 braces, fail. Re-roll Pass. KK causes 5 hits (remember shields already down) Dom1 saves 2, takes 3 and is crippled. No criticals.
KK5 shoots at dom1 causing 1 unsaved hit critical fire. KK5 then shoots its side batteries at Dom2 no result.
KK1 shoots at dom2 with it's prow weapons (its within 15) causing 2 shields down. It shoots at dom3 with its side weapons. No effect.
KK2 rolls ld to shoot at dom2 fail. shoots at dom3 no effect.
KK3 shoots at dom4 causing 7 hits (2 shields down 5 hits), critical thrusters damaged. Shoots at dom3 with side weapons 1 shield down.
In cruisers attempt to repair criticals. Fire is not repaired and dom1 is at 1 hit remaining. Dom4 doesn't repair thrusters damaged.
In turn 3:
Dom1+ Dom 4 attempt to disengage. Both pass. Dom2 and dom3 lock on both pass. KK1 braces, pass.
Both fire at KK1 (within 15, abeam). Total 6 hits (1 shield 5 hits). No criticals. they shoot at kk3 causing 3 hits. no criticals.
Orks turn 4:
KK3 comes to new heading, pass. KK4 comes to new heading pass. KK5 come to new heading Fail.
KK2 moves between the dominators, the others turn accordingly. KK2 fires at Dom2 causing 2 shields down. it fires at dom3 causing 1 shield down.
KK3 rolls ld to shoot at dom2 pass. 1 hit, no critical.
KK1 fires ad dom2. 2 hits, no critical.
IN turn 4:
Dominators move forward and turn. They have no targets.
Orks turn 5:
KK5 attempts come to new heading Pass. KK1 attempts come to new heading, Pass.
KK3 shoots at Dom2 1 hit (shield) KK2 shoots at dom2, (within 15) 3 hits, 1 critical engine room damaged.
KK1 shoots ad dom2 1 hit. Dom 2 destroyed, drifting hulk.
IN turn 5:
Dom 3 disengages.
Result: (not counting hulk points/disengaging points)
In: 87vps
Orks: 285vps. A solid victory for the orks!
NCs are not overpowered. That was my first game against spammed NCs. Do not limit them.
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@horizon
it was a regular ork fleet, and I wanted to show a worst case scenario, but IMO having another kroozer around was nice.
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So 1st turn to Imperials, on a normal size board, and...only one full turn of NC shooting?
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So 1st turn to Imperials, on a normal size board, and...only one full turn of NC shooting?
Orks had first turn. IN fired twice with NCs. This would've been three otherwise, and the battle would've looked much different. I imagine that the orks would've likely had a loss if they took another 4-6 point hit. Which is why NCs are so random and have such a luck based dependency.
Also as a note I think having NCs makes you want to fire them, wheras probably on the IN's second turn would've been to maneuver in weapons range and lock on. Although I guess this wouldn't have been possible with Dom1. So it's less relevant.
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Well ya Sig, no doubt its equally beardy. But the point of the batrep was to prove NC aren't OP, and an all Slaughter fleet was chosen to take it on.
Like throwing a tiger in a shark tank to prove that tigers aren't OP ;)
My money's on the tiger. :P
Anywho, there're two ways of looking at it. Firstly you can say "all NC = beardy, so since we're playing beardy how is it compared to other beardy fleets?". In this case you're giving an even footing and suggesting that if it is demonstrably overpowered in this instance then it deserves more attention than other beardy alternatives. In other words, if it beats the crap out of beardy fleets there's something wrong and it needs nerfing. So this is the type of arrangement you should be using if you're of the opinion that the NC is overpowered and needs nerfing. If it doesn't beat the snot out of these alternative beardy fleets then the data become inconclusive.
The other way is to put a beardy fleet like this up against a non-beardy fleet. This is for those that want to prove that it isn't overpowered. The argument goes that if a non-beardy fleet (like Orks) can contest a battle against the spamming of what is apparently meant to be a hard counter to them then this proves that the NC is not overpowered. If the NC fleet does beat the snot out of them then this proves nothing (since being beardy and taking a hard counter to a fleet should show this result).
So showing both types in this thread provides convergent evidence. We have anecdotal (not yet significant) evidence that the NC is not OP (Orks vs NC = Ork win) and we have an absence of evidence that it is (Beardy Chaos vs NC = BC win). So far the evidence has suggested that the Imperials really miss their torps when the battle progresses.
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So far the evidence has suggested that the Imperials really miss their torps when the battle progresses.[/color]
Exactly. Torps would've probably done more damage, as the kroozers would've definitely ran right into them. Total number of internal hits caused by NCs in that game was what? 10? The torps would've done at least 6 damage, likely at least ten, and for a cheaper price. Although the cost is that the fleet would have to reload to use them more than once.
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I'd say something smarmy, but that statement was just arrogant enough for the both of us. Though with that attitude, at least I wouldn't have to worry about ever losing against you. (assuming that I've got the 20xxFAQ down yet)
What more proof do you want that NCs don't need limits? You obviously think the NC is still overpowered. People have provided you enough proof that an all NC fleet is not overpowered and you're still asking for limits. So this only means you either can't figure out how to beat it or don't want to figure out how to beat it.
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So far we have:
Nate: NC vs Regular Chaos: NC Win (But had ungoldly dice rolls, Chaos didn't AAF and also had poor luck)
Nate: NC vs Regular Chaos: NC Win (But had ungoldly dice rolls, Chaos didn't AAF and also had poor luck)
Eudamon: NC vs Regular Chaos: Chaos Win convcincingly.
RCgothic: NC vs Regular Chaos: Chaos Win convincingly.
RCgothic: NC vs Regular Chaos: Chaos Win convincingly.
RCgothic: NC vs Beardy Chaos: Chaos total victory.
Plaxor: NC vs KKs: The Universally underpowered KKs still won.
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For what its worth: 1.15 hits on average a turn from one nova on a closing kroozer
0.9 hits per turn on average for str6 torps on a closing kroozer, even with their abysmal turret rating.
Novas have minimum 30cm range, which means torps get another shot over novas if their captains choose to RO and not LO with the broadsides at that range.
Torps don't have the alpha strike capability, must RO, can be intercepted by torps, can be intercepted by fighters, can be dodged.
Novas can reduce leadership, slow ships down, scatter and damage other ships, and take out ordnance.
My only point is, one can't easily say that NC are lesser options to torpedoes, or,
'I don't always use my prow, but when I do, I make it a torpedo salvo'
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Hi,
BaronI said the beardy NC fleet should be battled with a beardy (?) slaughter fleet to test it.
LS,
torpedoes bypass shields, small torp waves eleminate enemy fighters/torps with more accuracy the a NC (hey if my opponent fires at my ordnance I am a happy opponent...).
And I still have to see a scattering NC do damage to a ship of mine or a ship of my opponent if I shoot. +10years of playing. ;)
NC have a frigging long range. But they lose accuracy. And even a HIT might mean only 1 or 2 hits. Stopped by shields on top. The torpedoes can do area denial en masse. They can do the same amount of maximum hits as a Nova Cannon. Just as the NC torps have drawbacks. But that's good, no weapon should be 100% in function, each weapon has a drawback or counter.
If you equip your fleet with all NC you might end up playing a scenario like the raiders where the enemy is within 30cm in turn 1. Etc.
I can understand people only wanting torps as they are more reliable then a NC.
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can we all agree on no NC limits yet?
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can we all agree on no NC limits yet?
Nope. And when did I say anything about slaughters?
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I'm not completely against limits, but I'd prefer an NC everyone can agree on, and one that functions better without having to have multiples.
I like the idea of d3 hits on base, but 1d6 seems too short a scatter.
How does this digest as an alternative to the current NC rules:
90cm. no minimum range. 2d6 scatter always. D6 hits on stem and D3 hits on base, one hit if template is touching a base.
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no 90CM max range. 2d6 is marginally better but d3 hits on the base negates that. You still have fairly low odds of even staying on the base with 2d6, just now as astronomically low as 3d6.
Give Ray's rules a shot before saying that it seems to low of scatter. A miss with them still gives over 50% odds of only doing a single hit. (50% of the time you will roll less than 4 leaving the hole over the base, of those 33% of the time you will still just do 1 damage). 1d6 guarantees you can never get the full d6 hits if you scatter and leave little for a cruiser to fear.
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can we all agree on no NC limits yet?
Nope. And when did I say anything about slaughters?
In tems of playtesting pages back you said something like to beat a NC fleet with an anti AC fleet (which the Slaughter fleet is).
No limits on the NC.
But if the NC gets:
less scatter on max band (1d6 up to 60 // 2d6 above 60) and Lock on I'd go for 1 / 500.
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can we all agree on no NC limits yet?
Nope. And when did I say anything about slaughters?
In tems of playtesting pages back you said something like to beat a NC fleet with an anti AC fleet (which the Slaughter fleet is).
No limits on the NC.
But if the NC gets:
less scatter on max band (1d6 up to 60 // 2d6 above 60) and Lock on I'd go for 1 / 500.
No, what I said was typically I used an AC fleet to kill the NC fleet while staying out of range. D'Art was the one that suggested Slaughters instead.
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No you argued on how to playtest all NC's fleet.
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Ok.
90cm, no minimum distance. Scatters 2d6, keep the d6 hits if center is on base.
Alternatively: Same thing, but with some kind of limit on amount of NC, D6 hits if hole is on base, D3 hits if template is on base.
Also makes it more useful in low numbers.
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I still don't like the 90cm max range. There isn't any reason to drop the range and it makes sense to have the min range of 30cm with the size of the template. I'd think there would be something to keep the firing ship from hitting itself. Second, 2d6 scatter with no minimum range is a bit bizarre since it can have a shell missing by a large margin even though it's effectively point blank range.
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Well you would have to be very close to risk yourself, but I guess thats the risk you take if firing at extreme close range.
Its certainly worth going to 90cm. Saying a 110cm threat range isn't enough is like saying 'I don't care how big the board is, I should be able to hit anything, anywhere, before it has even moved.' Its essentially unlimited range. 110cm is still giving you a couple of turns before your opponent can hope to touch you with anything besides another NC.
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Well, terrain cuts down on that to a degree so you could say we've played with the NC at 90cm before. The thing is knowing you can get hit 150cm out changes how you deploy and what tactics you use and you try to deploy with terrain to keep from getting a shot in. It means that if you win first deployment you can position your forces to cover the best approaches and hopefully force your opponent to deploy in a less advantageous position. With a reduced range it doesn't matter since you have time to adjust. Shortening the range just removes one more option from the IN.
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150cm should always be the maximum range.
The Armageddon Gun has 90cm.
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Again, there's no need for a change to the NC. It's been changed quite enough over the years, and it is fine as it is.
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Nah, it is to weak currently. Ha!
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It's just weak when you figure out the vessels true weakness, a lack of torpedoes.
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90cm-0cm is ultimately much better for the NC than 150cm-30cm, dunno why any of the pro power-NC would mind it.
I've had bit of a reversal in my NC feelings. Due to their rare nature, theres no problem in somehow limiting the NC, and gives Admech more personality.
At the same time, in that case, I believe the NC should be more powerful in that case, so it would function better in singles.
Say take current NC rules, except 2d6 scatter always, and D3 damage from template, rather than 1.
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Say LS, what?
I don't think your last idea is a good NC solution.
And why are you so against 30-150cm? I think it is what makes the NC a NC.
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Well, maybe the armageddon gun must also be discussed, as it causes the same D6 damage, up to 90 cm, to all ships in the line of fire. ;D
As for the NC, it's a very powerful weapon by its fluff, so keep it that way.
No limits unless it's made more accurate (less deviation/scatter).
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I playtested my RS Orks in a 2000 point game vs an admech list, with Omnissiahs Victory, 3 nova-gifted lunars, and 4 endeavors, all tricked out with advanced weapons refit. Yes, using the version where you can buy the refits. Rounded out with 6 or so Falchions.
Point is, one thing we tested was a certain kind of nova cannon.
D6 if hole is on stem. D3 if any part of blast touches any part of base. 10cm-120cm range. And I believe 25 or 30 points rather than 20 point upgrade. Limit of no more than half capital ships in the fleet having one, though that didn't come into effect as we agreed AdMech would ignore this.
Not a single direct hit on about 10 shots (!?) but it still did a noticable amount of damage to my fleet, as well as every damn shot scattering ahead of me and bogging me down.
The intent of this was to make Novas quite acceptable in singles, but pricey enough an increase to want to keep torpedoes. I think it went well.
Thoughts?
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Did you AAF to him or just mosey on over through the hail of NC shells? Without a good batrep we really can't post any thoughts. Your definition of noticeable damage might be one hit or three and there's no indication of your fleet. Regardless, I believe the discussion on the NC ended after several battlereports showed evidence that AAF towards a NC fleet almost always resulted in the NC fleet folding. That said, I don't see any justification for making the thing both weaker AND more expensive.
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Yes LS. You shouldn't mosey through the fire.
Also the strategy against nova cannons is quite different than not. You want to bring the IN ships together rather than separate them, also if you have long ranged firepower you want to focus them on any ships that could potentially still fire their NC, as they can't fire whilst braced.
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Maybe you are missing something, It was a test of a stronger nova cannon, to make single novas more useful.
Nowhere did I say anything about overpowered nova cannons, I think you assumed rather than read the post.
I did forget one part, so I will relist it.
Normal targetting with scatterdice mechanic. Always 2d6 scatter, regardless of range. Hole on stem is D6 damage. If any part of the blast touches any part of a base, that vessel takes D3 damage. 10-120cm range.
I don't have a full battle report. I was going on AAF when I wasn't bracing. It led me to questioning if the 2d6 for orks wasn't simply too small, since I found myself only gaining enough extra movement to counter the slowdown from blast markers.
It was a planetary assault mission, me as the attacker.
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Planetary assault + NC defenders= Teh suxxor.
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It did seem to be :)
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Nova cannons are a lot better in missions like that, where it's a long way to go. Means they will usually get double the number of shots with them they would normally.
In missions like the convoy they usually do very poorly.
Normal games (i.e. just kill your opponent) they usually do worse than torps would. It's only the special exception that in long range games that they do exceptionally well.
I think that in blockade run they would do well too, as the defender would be able to use his ships to attack from all three deployment sections.
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Always 2d6 scatter, regardless of range.
You didn't include that in your original post. D3 damage on touching the template and loss of 30cm range is a far cry weaker than d6 damage for the hole anywhere on the base and 150cm range. 2d6 scatter at all range bands only helps the NC out past 60cm. It makes it worse since you roll an extra d6 close in and worse than the original rules mid range with the 2d6 scatter since you gain a slightly larger margin to still do more than one hit but lose 3 potential damage.
That makes it a weaker NC than it currently is.
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Always 2d6 scatter, regardless of range.
You didn't include that in your original post. D3 damage on touching the template and loss of 30cm range is a far cry weaker than d6 damage for the hole anywhere on the base and 150cm range. 2d6 scatter at all range bands only helps the NC out past 60cm. It makes it worse since you roll an extra d6 close in and worse than the original rules mid range with the 2d6 scatter since you gain a slightly larger margin to still do more than one hit but lose 3 potential damage.
That makes it a weaker NC than it currently is.
Actually it makes it stronger. The last 30cm of range is rarely used. However this version has a minimum range of only 10cm, meaning it will be usable the vast majority of the time, even in close (though still unlikely to scatter back on the firing ship). As for the D3, he meant that the hole still did D6 damage, but if the hole missed and the template still hit it would do D3 damage instead of 1 damage. Meaning that an indirect hit still has a 1 in 3 chance of doing damage through the shields.
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As for the D3, he meant that the hole still did D6 damage, but if the hole missed and the template still hit it would do D3 damage instead of 1 damage. Meaning that an indirect hit still has a 1 in 3 chance of doing damage through the shields.
I was pretty sure he meant the hole had to be over the stem to get D6 hits and anything else just gives d3. If the hole gives d6 hits over the base too then, yes it is a more powerful version of the NC.
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I did mean stem. I still find it to be a more powerful NC variant, especially for single examples in a fleet.
I lost 4 escorts in my game from blast damage from single NC shots, for instance. The D6 on stem rule means that it doesn't penalize ships with large bases as much, but ensures some damage is likely.
The 10 cm range does indeed make it more universally useful.
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for general consistency, it should at least have a min as a multiple of 15cm... here that would be 15cm.
sounds like a neat idea. what restrictions/cost increase comes with this suped up uber cannon?
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Oh I dunno, as long as its multiples of 5 I don't get too hung up :)
As to cost, I believe we used 25 on the game we played, while debating 25-30. The idea is that it should be pricey enough and good enough to say 'hey, I could use one of these in my fleet, even if just one'
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Has anyone thought of a set number of dice against armor? Say, 6-8 on a direct hit and 3 on an indirect?