Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Rules Questions => Topic started by: horizon on November 23, 2010, 04:27:36 AM
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http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
I started a new thread for this.
My view:
Battleship
Overlord Weaponry.
+3 shields, +3 turrets, +4 hits.
Is that all worth 120points?
Grand Cruiser
Again Overlord weaponry but less range on dorsal lances.
6+ armour all around instead of prow only.
Is that worth 55points?
Strike Cruiser
Be with it. :)
Fleet list
Do count grey knight cruisers as cruisers in a fleet to get a battleship/grand cruiser slot available?
The Xenos Inquisitor, albeit most expensive (5pts), is much more useful then the other two as far as I can see. The downfall (more enemy escorts can be 'woosh' or annoying. ;)
Ordnance: is the replacement of the launch bays a must or a may?
I like the document and its background alot.
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I don't even get why the Inquisition has to get a battleship or grand cruisers. Cruiser sized vessels should be enough for them since they favor discreet tactics. Kinda obvious that an investigation is under way when the Blackship arrives in system.
So who's brainstorm is this this time?
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Bob had a barge sized black ship back in the days.
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I'd make a rule that they can only take a BB for an Exterminatus mission. It would be fluffier.
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Bob had a barge sized black ship back in the days.
Which still doesn't make sense.
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I rather enjoy the old blackship design, thanks.
This pdf is a rather depressing joke for such a great portion of the fluff.
Though, lets face it, all you need for an inquisition fleet is a black ship and a space marine/imperial fleet.
Inquisitors rarely have fleets of their own, they usually co-opt other fleets for their needs.
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Oh cool. I've got a special place on my desktop reserved for these rules. It's called the 'Recycle Bin'.
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lol, this will be a depressing read for the HA.
Zelnik, the fleet list is like you describe by the way (blackship (or similar) in addition to Marine, AdMech, IN fleet).
Also: Inquisitors travel by any means. If they deem a fast clipper the best solution they'll take it.
Inquisitors should in my opinion be characters (with special rules) that can be added to IN, AdMech, Marines or Rogue Traders.
In essence.
Blackships as special add on. Black ships may come in variety. (I like the Grand Cruiser approach more the the barge to be honest).
But Blackships =/= Inquisition.
Seperate branch I'd say.
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lol, this will be a depressing read for the HA.
Jeez I hope so.
Also: Inquisitors travel by any means. If they deem a fast clipper the best solution they'll take it.
This ^
Inquisitors should in my opinion be characters (with special rules) that can be added to IN, AdMech, Marines or Rogue Traders.
I have a similar opinion, that differs only in one minor aspect. I would change that to read: "Inquisitors should in my opinion be characters (without special rules) that can be added to IN, AdMech, Marines or Rogue Traders."
Blackships as special add on. Black ships may come in variety. (I like the Grand Cruiser approach more the the barge to be honest).
Hmm, I was thinking more along the lines of a transport ship, or a heavy transport.
But Blackships =/= Inquisition.
Seperate branch I'd say.
Agreed.
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One of those rare ocasions when I totally agree with Sigoroth
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Well, I'm going to swim against the tide to say that I really like where this is going. I think there is a space for players that want to play highly upgraded versions of standard ships. Adeptus Mechanicus should have done this, but the randomness in the list is a huge turnoff for players that like to tinker.
Some suggestions:
The Black Ship - I like the general direction; heavily protected but undergunned. However, I think the Black Ship should be more carrier and lance based than it currently is. Remember that the weapons systems are there purely to protect the ship, and AC have a defensive, as well as offensive, role to play. I also doubt that the Inquisiton would rely on standard transports to uplift their precious, psychic cargo, so perhaps resilient Thunderhawks would be a fit?
Because the Black Ship is going to want to escape pursuers (such as the torpedo escorts that destroyed the planet killer) it is not going to want to have to maneuver (always bad for a battle ship) to bring it's guns to bear. So a strong dorsal lance array would be fitting; the hangars could be on the side of the vessel, much like on the Emperor.
Any reason why it is not 6+ armour? I'm also not sold on the torpedos - what would it need torpedos for?
This ship has potential, but it currently feels confused, and I'm not clear what it would actually do in a game of BFG. Being able to soak fire is great, but I just don't see my opponent's bothering to shoot at it right now.
Grand Inquisitorial Cruiser - I like the concept very much, but why have you used cruiser base stats rather than grand cruiser base stats (given the name)? I see this more as a center piece rather than as a line ship, so perhaps it could use a few more side-grade options, to reflect the individualistic nature of Inquisitors? Alternatively, perhaps just drop the "grand"?
Grey Knight SC - A nice touch.
Inquisitor Ordos - I like the direction, but not the execution. First, if you feel something is too powerful, then up the points cost. Don't make games (or tournaments) complicated by modifying your opponent's fleet list. Second, kill the random factor. Randomness is a huge part of why the AM fleetlist was such a disappointment. Rolling for upgrades kills strategy and tactics.
-Silent Requiem
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I really hate disliking something that so much work apparently went into. I'll try again tomorrow, maybe the morning will bring new revelations.
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I rather enjoy the old blackship design, thanks.
Me too. Bob Henderson's old model is amazing, and I built one. However, since it requires the sacrifice of a plastic cruiser, a strike cruiser and a battlebarge to make one, we can't make that model the standard. however, an AdMech cruiser fits the bill quite nicely.
This pdf is a rather depressing joke for such a great portion of the fluff.
Uh, thanks? :P ;D
Though, lets face it, all you need for an inquisition fleet is a black ship and a space marine/imperial fleet.
Inquisitors rarely have fleets of their own, they usually co-opt other fleets for their needs.
Exactly right. THAT'S why nowhere in this document do you see anything about an Inquisition fleet list. :)
- Nate
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Bob had a barge sized black ship back in the days.
Which still doesn't make sense.
No, actually it was cruiser-sized. In fact, his ship is the exact ship in the top graphic for an Inquisitorial Cruiser.
- Nate
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lol, this will be a depressing read for the HA.
Jeez I hope so.
Nope. It’s a sad day indeed when I get depressed over responses from a fan list! :D
Also: Inquisitors travel by any means. If they deem a fast clipper the best solution they'll take it.
This ^
Exactly right, actually. It even says so in the first paragraph detailing Inquisition cruisers.
Blackships as special add on. Black ships may come in variety. (I like the Grand Cruiser approach more the the barge to be honest).
Hmm, I was thinking more along the lines of a transport ship, or a heavy transport.
But Blackships =/= Inquisition.
Seperate branch I'd say.
Agreed.
You are both right. Blackships are enormous, very well-defended transports. Inquisitorial cruisers are not- they are powerful, purpose-built or refitted warships seconded or ceded to the Inquisition for their express use. They will take many forms, they will be good both offensively and defensively, and their Inquisitors will probably call them Blackships, mainly because they can. Cruisers are impressive, but Blackships invoke raw fear, an emotion more useful to an Inquisitor's needs. By the way, the League of Blackships used to be its own organization before the Horus Heresy. Now they are run by the Inquisition. EVERYTHING in fluff post-heresy referring to Blackships have the Inquisition in the same sentence.
- Nate
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Oh cool. I've got a special place on my desktop reserved for these rules. It's called the 'Recycle Bin'.
See, now that’s what I call constructive criticism. Thanks. :P ;)
I really hate disliking something that so much work apparently went into. I'll try again tomorrow, maybe the morning will bring new revelations.
Okay, hopefully this helps… (see below)
Well, I'm going to swim against the tide to say that I really like where this is going. I think there is a space for players that want to play highly upgraded versions of standard ships. Adeptus Mechanicus should have done this, but the randomness in the list is a huge turnoff for players that like to tinker.
Some suggestions:
The Black Ship - I like the general direction; heavily protected but undergunned. However, I think the Black Ship should be more carrier and lance based than it currently is. Remember that the weapons systems are there purely to protect the ship, and AC have a defensive, as well as offensive, role to play. I also doubt that the Inquisiton would rely on standard transports to uplift their precious, psychic cargo, so perhaps resilient Thunderhawks would be a fit?
Because the Black Ship is going to want to escape pursuers (such as the torpedo escorts that destroyed the planet killer) it is not going to want to have to maneuver (always bad for a battle ship) to bring it's guns to bear. So a strong dorsal lance array would be fitting; the hangars could be on the side of the vessel, much like on the Emperor.
Any reason why it is not 6+ armour? I'm also not sold on the torpedos - what would it need torpedos for?
This ship has potential, but it currently feels confused, and I'm not clear what it would actually do in a game of BFG. Being able to soak fire is great, but I just don't see my opponent's bothering to shoot at it right now.
Blackship. This feels confused because the comparisons I see here are to warships. This is NOT a battleship! The very LAST place the Imperium in general and the Inquisition in particular wants a Blackship brimming with untrained psykers is in the midst of a firefight. TAHT is why it is such a hard nut to crack defensively. Imagine super-heavy transport with extra defensive goodies and just enough weaponry to make it a thorny prospect if the bad guys manage to get it cornered. That's why it didn't get Exterminatus capabilities, etc. About the only places you would find this ship is caught by surprise in a Convoy Run type scenario or accompanying a Planetary Assault (from way in the back!) to vacuum up more untrained or rogue psykers from a contested system once the rest of the fleet mops up any resistance.
This thing is a well-guarded super-heavy transport, for all intents and purposes an Imperial treasure ship, which is why it’s REALLY expensive for what it brings. It’s really expensive for not much firepower, but tough to kill even by battleship standards. The owning player gets extra VP’s if it lives, the opponent gets extra VP’s if it dies. It’s not something a player is going to be hitting the table with every game, but for some games this can be a very interesting ship, and it fits very neatly with fluff.
It fits VERY neatly with fluff, by the way- guidance for how this ship should look came directly from the game designers, and I’m not talking about BFG. Thus, the ship doesn’t get Thunderhawks, big-deck firepower or anything like that. The only reason it’s in a battleship hull at all is for increased survivability and to provide adequate power for the enhanced Gellar Fields, which are the most powerful fitted to any ship in the Imperium. It’s a special scenario vessel formulated to be used in other scenarios if the player wants to. It play-tested very well, but is not something to be used in lieu of a regular warship. If a player doesn’t like it, there’s nothing in the rules obligating him or her to use it. If you hate it so bad, feel free to smash it flat with your fleet if your opponent brings one.
Grand Inquisitorial Cruiser - I like the concept very much, but why have you used cruiser base stats rather than grand cruiser base stats (given the name)? I see this more as a center piece rather than as a line ship, so perhaps it could use a few more side-grade options, to reflect the individualistic nature of Inquisitors? Alternatively, perhaps just drop the "grand"?
Grand Inquisitorial Cruiser. This suffers from a poor naming convention (my fault). The idea is that it is supposed to be a battlecruiser of sorts, which is how the Imperium handles Grand Cruisers, hence the name. No, it is not supposed to be a Grand Cruiser. While it can serve as a centerpiece, it is nothing more than what the Inquisition uses for cruisers. Yes, to avoid confusion we can drop the “Grand.â€
Grey Knight SC - A nice touch.
OMG a compliment! <faints> :D
Inquisitor Ordos - I like the direction, but not the execution. First, if you feel something is too powerful, then up the points cost. Don't make games (or tournaments) complicated by modifying your opponent's fleet list. Second, kill the random factor. Randomness is a huge part of why the AM fleetlist was such a disappointment. Rolling for upgrades kills strategy and tactics.
-Silent Requiem
AHA!!! This is EXACTLY the comment I was waiting for! Here’s why we took this approach, which I shamelessly cribbed from the WH40k Demonhunters Codex.
1. Ordo Hereticus is more like a plain-vanilla Inquisitor coming around to dish out hate and discontent, which is why that profile is plain as well: a given cost for a given benefit, almost (but not quite) as good as Space Marines for almost (but not quite) the same cost.
2. Ordo Xenos is an altogether different animal. They’re in town because the aliens (whatever flavor) have gotten so bad, somebody somewhere decided the Imperial Navy needed a little help, and for whatever reason a Space Marine Chapter rigged for Exterminatus wasn’t handy or the most useful tool at the moment. These guys are geared primarily to face off against aliens and do much better against them than they can say against Chaos, against who they are not too much better than a Hereticus Inquisitor. To not make them too expensive when facing Chaos, their point value is based on fighting Chaos, and their special benefits against Xenos fleets is balanced by the xenos fleets getting more free escorts. Keep in mind that “too many aliens!†is why an Xenos Inquisitor is on the scene in the first place.
Before anyone else catches it first, I forgot to add in from my notes that all Xenos races get a -1 modifier (after applying all modifiers) during boarding actions and H&R attacks. Of the three inquisition “flavors,†this one is the one that will need more tweaking to get right.
3. Ordo Malleus is to Chaos what Ordo Xenos is to aliens in that it ignores Chaos Marks, which is really useful when fighting Chaos but of no value when fighting say Eldar. That’s why against Eldar, Necrons, YourMom’sCar, etc. they only count as Ordo Hereticus, and Grey Knights are just fancy Space Marines with even better (and more expensive) strike cruisers than the normal vanilla kind. Against Chaos however they suddenly negate all the fancy bells and whistles a Chaos player paid for his fleet to have, which means he or she either gets more of them (like Tzeentch re-rolls if desired) or free demonship cruiser upgrades. This balance instead of cost issue is exactly how Grey Knights are handled in WH40k, to keep the Grey Knights themeful but prevent them from being too expensive when playing anyone besides Chaos.
- Nate
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Blackship. This feels confused because the comparisons I see here are to warships. This is NOT a battleship! The very LAST place the Imperium in general and the Inquisition in particular wants a Blackship brimming with untrained psykers is in the midst of a firefight. TAHT is why it is such a hard nut to crack defensively. Imagine super-heavy transport with extra defensive goodies and just enough weaponry to make it a thorny prospect if the bad guys manage to get it cornered.
If it looks like a battleship, it shoots like a battleship, moves and turns like a battleship, has the same defensive qualities as a battleship, it is a battleship.
This thing is a well-guarded super-heavy transport,
Yup. It's very much almost another well guarded super heavy transport: the SM Battlebarge. Which last I looked was a battleship and a warship.
It fits VERY neatly with fluff, by the way- guidance for how this ship should look came directly from the game designers, and I’m not talking about BFG.
Which is a major part of the problem I think.
Thus, the ship doesn’t get Thunderhawks, big-deck firepower or anything like that. The only reason it’s in a battleship hull at all is for increased survivability and to provide adequate power for the enhanced Gellar Fields, which are the most powerful fitted to any ship in the Imperium. It’s a special scenario vessel formulated to be used in other scenarios if the player wants to.
The question still is why risk a battleship sized vessel to house all those Psykers as you yourself have pointed out? It'll just be a more of a magnet for Chaos. It's also quite expensive that I have to pay a chunk for points and in addition if it is destroyed, I look a lot of VPs. 350 points isn't cheap in any list.
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Seems too much like someone wants an equivalent to the B5 psi-corps motherships in BFG. To be honest, I'm not sure they are appropriate in this game at all. JMO...
Cheers, Gary
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This pdf makes me wonder, is the old blackship model now obsolete? The 6+ armor cruiser we were hoping to take in marine lists? :(
Ok, well heres a question. Why is a battleship size vessel needed to go on psyker gathering errands?
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Seems too much like someone wants an equivalent to the B5 psi-corps motherships in BFG. To be honest, I'm not sure they are appropriate in this game at all. JMO...
Cheers, Gary
Lol! I was just thinking the same thing as I was reading down the thread. :o :P
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OK, anyway, Nate I think you got a bit confused between Blackships and Inquisitorial cruisers in one of your posts. At first you delineated between them and then used them interchangeably (in the same paragraph). A black ship is just an ark carrying a bunch of pyskers to their fate. For which task a simple heavy transport will suffice. The defence is in the escort.
An Inquisitorial cruiser is a ship commandeered or commissioned for use by Inquisitors. In the former instance, it'll just be a normal ship with maybe a refit or two. In the latter instance it'll be a character ship which no one profile will be able to represent. Either way, the actual presence or absence of the Inquisitor himself will make no difference to the game, except perhaps with some sort of sub-plot. If you want to write up rules trading refits for sub-plots (plus a little cost) for the Inquisitor's presence, then I'm fine with that. Otherwise the presence or absence of an Inquisitor simply won't be felt at the level of BFG. Hell, I'm sure there's been many an IN fleet blown up with an Inquisitor present ...
As for the Ordo what-the-hell-ever, just like individual SM chapters rules have no impact on the game so too should these. GKs should just count as SMs. Maybe cost a little more and get +1 in boarding against Chaos. Similarly, Ordo Xenos could maybe be represented by a purchased upgrade for a ship and give +1 in boarding against non-human fleets (IN, Chaos, RT, Pirate, Renegade, etc).
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1. I like the idea of including one Inquisition Black ship in an Imperial or SM fleet. I support this effort.
2. I would like to see an underlying theme for the BB and the GC though, i understand the undergunned but upped defenses stats. but should the weapon layout be similar as well? prow BC, dorsal lances, side batteries.
3. why not use the GC hull for the IGC (Inquisition GC)?
4. why is it that an IGC of the Hereticus can get +1Ld, +1 to hit and run, -1 against hit and run but the IBB cannot?
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Well, I'm going to swim against the tide to say that I really like where this is going. I think there is a space for players that want to play highly upgraded versions of standard ships. Adeptus Mechanicus should have done this, but the randomness in the list is a huge turnoff for players that like to tinker.
Some suggestions:
The Black Ship - I like the general direction; heavily protected but undergunned. However, I think the Black Ship should be more carrier and lance based than it currently is. Remember that the weapons systems are there purely to protect the ship, and AC have a defensive, as well as offensive, role to play. I also doubt that the Inquisiton would rely on standard transports to uplift their precious, psychic cargo, so perhaps resilient Thunderhawks would be a fit?
Because the Black Ship is going to want to escape pursuers (such as the torpedo escorts that destroyed the planet killer) it is not going to want to have to maneuver (always bad for a battle ship) to bring it's guns to bear. So a strong dorsal lance array would be fitting; the hangars could be on the side of the vessel, much like on the Emperor.
Any reason why it is not 6+ armour? I'm also not sold on the torpedos - what would it need torpedos for?
This ship has potential, but it currently feels confused, and I'm not clear what it would actually do in a game of BFG. Being able to soak fire is great, but I just don't see my opponent's bothering to shoot at it right now.
Blackship. This feels confused because the comparisons I see here are to warships. This is NOT a battleship! The very LAST place the Imperium in general and the Inquisition in particular wants a Blackship brimming with untrained psykers is in the midst of a firefight. TAHT is why it is such a hard nut to crack defensively. Imagine super-heavy transport with extra defensive goodies and just enough weaponry to make it a thorny prospect if the bad guys manage to get it cornered. That's why it didn't get Exterminatus capabilities, etc. About the only places you would find this ship is caught by surprise in a Convoy Run type scenario or accompanying a Planetary Assault (from way in the back!) to vacuum up more untrained or rogue psykers from a contested system once the rest of the fleet mops up any resistance.
Then don't make it a battle ship. Make it a fast, heavily sheilded escort. And cost it accordingly. If you build a battleship, and cost it as a battleship, I don't think it's reasonable to complain that people compare it to other battleships.
And frankly, I don't see anything wrong with it being a battleship. These ships keep the Imperium alive.
This thing is a well-guarded super-heavy transport, for all intents and purposes an Imperial treasure ship, which is why it’s REALLY expensive for what it brings. It’s really expensive for not much firepower, but tough to kill even by battleship standards. The owning player gets extra VP’s if it lives, the opponent gets extra VP’s if it dies. It’s not something a player is going to be hitting the table with every game, but for some games this can be a very interesting ship, and it fits very neatly with fluff.
Some of the concepts are very cool, which is why I like the idea. But what you are effectively saying is that a player can choose a points handicap (overcosted ship) in exchange for a VP bonus if it lives, or a VP penalty if it dies. Do you envisage this ship disengaging turn 1 every game? The ship still needs to justify it's place on the table, or nobody will bring it.
It fits VERY neatly with fluff, by the way- guidance for how this ship should look came directly from the game designers, and I’m not talking about BFG. Thus, the ship doesn’t get Thunderhawks, big-deck firepower or anything like that. The only reason it’s in a battleship hull at all is for increased survivability and to provide adequate power for the enhanced Gellar Fields, which are the most powerful fitted to any ship in the Imperium.
Well, it would seem that the game designers don't play BFG. The armament is just silly. I know the Imperium does silly things all the time, but the weapons loadout does not fit with what you are telling me the ship does. It has offensive weapons that require it to maneuver like a line cruiser; torpedos & broadsides. It wants weapons that it can use while fleeing combat, or while supporting it's escort ships from safe range, which points to dorsal lances and AC. It also suggests 6+ armour. Given that these ships are meant to be the most important ships in the Imperium, why have the Inquisition not put a modicum of thought into their weapons loadout?
Frankly, I'd sooner trust my important cargo to the under-shielded and under-turreted Battle Barge; at least a squadron of Cobras can't take out a BB caught on its own.
It’s a special scenario vessel formulated to be used in other scenarios if the player wants to. It play-tested very well, but is not something to be used in lieu of a regular warship. If a player doesn’t like it, there’s nothing in the rules obligating him or her to use it. If you hate it so bad, feel free to smash it flat with your fleet if your opponent brings one.
Fair enough. Nobody is being forced to use it. But in a game crying out desperately for updates and (in some cases) rebalancing, isn't it a little bit silly for the HA to be wasting spending time on ships and fleets nobody will want to use?
Inquisitor Ordos - I like the direction, but not the execution. First, if you feel something is too powerful, then up the points cost. Don't make games (or tournaments) complicated by modifying your opponent's fleet list. Second, kill the random factor. Randomness is a huge part of why the AM fleetlist was such a disappointment. Rolling for upgrades kills strategy and tactics.
-Silent Requiem
AHA!!! This is EXACTLY the comment I was waiting for! Here’s why we took this approach, which I shamelessly cribbed from the WH40k Demonhunters Codex.
1. Ordo Hereticus is more like a plain-vanilla Inquisitor coming around to dish out hate and discontent, which is why that profile is plain as well: a given cost for a given benefit, almost (but not quite) as good as Space Marines for almost (but not quite) the same cost.
2. Ordo Xenos is an altogether different animal. They’re in town because the aliens (whatever flavor) have gotten so bad, somebody somewhere decided the Imperial Navy needed a little help, and for whatever reason a Space Marine Chapter rigged for Exterminatus wasn’t handy or the most useful tool at the moment. These guys are geared primarily to face off against aliens and do much better against them than they can say against Chaos, against who they are not too much better than a Hereticus Inquisitor. To not make them too expensive when facing Chaos, their point value is based on fighting Chaos, and their special benefits against Xenos fleets is balanced by the xenos fleets getting more free escorts. Keep in mind that “too many aliens!†is why an Xenos Inquisitor is on the scene in the first place.
Before anyone else catches it first, I forgot to add in from my notes that all Xenos races get a -1 modifier (after applying all modifiers) during boarding actions and H&R attacks. Of the three inquisition “flavors,†this one is the one that will need more tweaking to get right.
3. Ordo Malleus is to Chaos what Ordo Xenos is to aliens in that it ignores Chaos Marks, which is really useful when fighting Chaos but of no value when fighting say Eldar. That’s why against Eldar, Necrons, YourMom’sCar, etc. they only count as Ordo Hereticus, and Grey Knights are just fancy Space Marines with even better (and more expensive) strike cruisers than the normal vanilla kind. Against Chaos however they suddenly negate all the fancy bells and whistles a Chaos player paid for his fleet to have, which means he or she either gets more of them (like Tzeentch re-rolls if desired) or free demonship cruiser upgrades. This balance instead of cost issue is exactly how Grey Knights are handled in WH40k, to keep the Grey Knights themeful but prevent them from being too expensive when playing anyone besides Chaos.
See, I knew exactly where you got the idea from, as I used to play GK fairly successfully in 40k. I'm not sure what inspired you to rip ideas off one of the weakest and underplayed codexi in the game though (and that's in spite of the awesome fluff and range of models). Bad idea was bad. It was bad then, and it's just as bad now.
And none of that justifies the random-factor that the HA seems to have fallen in love with since the release of the core books.
I like the idea, but the execution is very weak, a problem that seems to dog GW when it comes to the Inquisition.
-Silent Requiem
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blackships =/= inquisition...
...
Okay, I am going to turn around and die from laughter. I love this board, but fanboyism is so horribly rife here. Wow. Just...wow.
On the whole... No.
Just no.
Also, you don't need more inquisition ships. their LACK of DEDICATED ships is part of the imperial check and balance. Just like how the space marines don't get warships. If any one aspect of the Imperium goes out of control, the others can move in and destroy it. If the inquisition had ships, why have the Adeptus Mechanis?
So, No. They get blackships. An inquisitor can commandeer the resources of a planet, but he cannot commandeer the resources of a fleet. Just as an inquisitor cannot remove command from a space marine, he cannot remove the command of an admiral. Why? every ship is granted to the commander directly from the High Lords of Terra (just like rogue traders). If an inquisitor wants a fleet, he has to ask the High Admiralty, who have the power to say "no."
The only person on a ship that has the authority to take command from it's captain is the ranking commissar, and that's only if the captain has proven either terminally stupid, insane, or traitorous. There is a great comic that comes in the BFG box set where the admiral has to placate the fears of just such a commissar during a daring maneuver.
Oh, when it comes to the blackship, you don't need a strike cruiser. just a cruiser and a barge (it looks better with a barge prow then a strike cruiser prow, trust me!), otherwise, just make it yourself from assorted bits and chaos/imperial ships.
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This pdf makes me wonder, is the old blackship model now obsolete? The 6+ armor cruiser we were hoping to take in marine lists? :(
No. The ship you are referring to is EXACTLY the ship described for the Inquisitorial Cruiser.
Ok, well heres a question. Why is a battleship size vessel needed to go on psyker gathering errands?
Because fluff says so. "Battleship-sized" doesn't mean "battleship." Blackships by design evoke awe and fear, and by their very nature have to be extremely resilient and capable of not only hauling psykers, but a large retinue of Sisters of Silence to keep the psykers tamped down and a Mission of Battle Sisters to keep the peace and provide security against external threats. As some have pointed out correctly, this ship certainly is a Chaos magnet! You don't put that kind of threat/value level in some plain-vanilla heavy transport, just like the bank doesn't carry the payroll in the back of a pickup truck.
The Inquisition cruiser is a Blackship because inquisitors call it that. Can these vessels be used as Blackships as well? I suppose so- they're definitely hard enough to fit the bill. However, the game designers decided that a Blackship should be something battleship-sized, big on defense and light on offense, and Bob's creation didn't fit the bill. That meant create something that did fit the bill and re-direct Bob's creation to a new cruiser design that also exists in fluff, get rid of Bob's cruiser entirely (which as the previous post indicates would mean getting rid of a ship that while unofficial was to an extent popular) or do nothing. We elected to not do nothing.
Look everyone, has anyone noticed there is NO requirement or prerequisite to field this ship? It's not required in any fleet list (not that this is a fleet list, I might add), and it's not even required to field an Inquisitor to lead your fleet. You can only have one per 1500 points, which means its even rarer than battle barges! Nobody's going to use this to win tournaments. These ships were intended solely to provide an interesting foil for battles and campaigns. Now that we are re-visiting new rules for what may be the last time in a while, we thought it would be an intersting way to incorporating into the game a special-scenario ship that has existed in the WH40k storyline forever but has never appeared in BFG.
If you don't like it, don't use it. If you really hate it, kill it if your opponent fields one if it makes you feel better and get some big VP's. These are one-off vessels that aren't going to be big game and tournament changers, and they bring something characterful to a game that's supposed to be fun.
In all our efforts we haven't created anything that goes against the game. We have all the designer guidance and fluff references on-hand so using fluff to tell us we're wrong or an idea is stupid just because you don't like it is counterproductive and not helping. On the other hand, if a profile or rule-set is broken or somehow unbalanced, we need to talk about that to get it fixed. Some valid points have been brought up, and we will fix those before this gets stapled shut.
By the way, I liked the B5 reference, but no, this is acually much older than B5- references to Blackships and the Inquisitioon date all the way back to Rogue Trader! In fact, if you REALLY want to know, I had an opportunity to speak with people who know, and the inspiration for certain things actually cross-pollinated in the opposite direction than this comment suggested... :D
- Nate
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There is already inquisitor fleet in the book of nemesis. We tested it some time ago and it does work. Why did you decide to scratch-built a new one? But we used a puritan blackship for 270pts.
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I'm not sure what inspired you to rip ideas off one of the weakest and underplayed codexi in the game ...
Codices.
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Hi Nate,
perhaps it is beneficial to seperate Blackships & Inquisitor. Do not call the pdf "Inquisition Draft".
Inquisitors do not call their own ships blackship afaik.
As stated before an Inquisitor:
* takes a fast clipper if speedy travel is needed.
* takes command of the local Rogue Trader or Merchant cruiser if he deems necessary
* takes command of a Marine vessel if deemed necessary
* takes command of a Navy vessel if deemed necessary
* Orders Exterminatus if he has a bad day.
We all like extras to the game, but we all want them fluff-justified & balanced. :)
Blackship = Psyker Transport = Special fortified ship.
Inquisiton cruiser = does not exist.
Inquisition blackship = does not exist.
The Current Game Designers are : Bob Henderson, Ray Bell, Nate Montes(z? I always forget, sorry).
These three decide & push to GW. Not ancient designers from the past who are in World of Warcraft these days. ;)
The random factor issue by SR is interesting.
edit: on a personal note: the term "Grand Inquisitorial Cruiser" is awesome. We need a special heretic character Inquisitor with an own fleet list to make this an option. haha
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Because fluff says so. "Battleship-sized" doesn't mean "battleship." Blackships by design evoke awe and fear, and by their very nature have to be extremely resilient and capable of not only hauling psykers, but a large retinue of Sisters of Silence to keep the psykers tamped down and a Mission of Battle Sisters to keep the peace and provide security against external threats. As some have pointed out correctly, this ship certainly is a Chaos magnet! You don't put that kind of threat/value level in some plain-vanilla heavy transport, just like the bank doesn't carry the payroll in the back of a pickup truck.
- Nate
Battleship sized may not automatically mean a battleship but this ship will function as a battleship. And so it IS a battleship. As I said, weapons wise, it's a battle barge equivalent. I can understand if it only had a few 30 cm weapons. But 60 cm weapons?
Secondly why would I put that many psykers onto one ship? The thing has at least a crew of 12,000. So I'm going to risk tempting Chaos by putting thousands on one ship? I'd rather have psykers in multiple ships.
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12000 crew? Much to few. Lunars already have 96000.
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I'm both surprised and disappointed in the general hatred against this new project. It seems to be everyone's consensus that this great game will eventually share the same fate as the other games published by SG. Personally I applause the very effort of adding something new and official to this game. The fluff is excellent work. The only thing I really missed is the lack of GK terminators (didn't see them at all). Fluffwise they are the very essence of the Grey Knights as GK-power armour (those I hate) didn't even exist before the Daemonhunter codex was introduced a few years ago. I would be more than happy to cough up +50pts on a GK strike cruiser to have a terminator boarding party on it.
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It's not that we don't want Inquisition vessels, it's that we think it could be done better.
Inquisitors commandeer the ships they require, they don't have dedicated vessels. I agree that black ships don't strike awe because of their offensive power, but because of what they represent. I don't see why they would need Torpedoes though. A moderate weapons battery for defense, yes. Lances and torps no.
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It doesn't seem very fluffy. Inquisitors usually requisition IN, they don't keep huge fleets of thier own.
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one ship hardly constitute a huge fleet
i see them as needing mobile bases to do their work
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Which will more often than not be a modified civilian vessel. You don't need a fleet to hunt heretics and xenos sympathisers in the underhive. The closest inquisitors come to a permanent warship is an alliance with a rogue trader.
Inquisitors as characters you can take for your ship I'm all for. Black Ships would also make a nice appearance. But they are well-defended superheavy transports, not warships, feared more for the threat of being taken by them than the vessel itself.
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Why would they need mobile bases and why wouldn't a black ship be enough?
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that's what the HA did
took an IN ship, modified it for more defensive and less offensive
they just happened to mistakenly called it a black ship and now everyone is in a tizzie
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I'll admit, I've warmed up to the idea this fourth read-through. There are white blood cells on this forum that attack foreign invaders blindly, I can be one of them ;)
I do find it flavorful to have an option of an inquisition requisitioned task force, as they can sometimes lead whole crusades.
And yes, they will have their own, rare, ships.
Just a few tweaks I think need to be made is all. One actually is 6+ all around for the black ship. More to come.
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Rare ships yes. Rare Escort sized, definitely. Rare light cruisers, I can see that. Rare cruiser sized, probably the best it can get. Rare battleships (and really, the Black Ship is a battleship no matter how Nate says it is not), I don't think so. The IN needs all the battleship sized and armed vessels it needs. Even though the proposed Black Ship has less weapons than a Retribution, it has enough survivability that it could go toe to toe with just about any common battleship available in the game. No one would just want to board it since it has +2 Boarding Modifier and 12 HP and 5 turrets. Because of the turrets, ABs or Bombers would have a tough time against it. Even torp attacks might be questionable. Shields can take a lot of punishment as well. The Black Ship can just charge headlong into enemy fire with ships trailing behind it and give the opponent a hard choice of what to take out first.
For what it provides, I might even just take it over the Retribution. It doesn't have to worry about cruiser requirements as I can just take it in any list. It's a battleship which takes the slot of a battlecruiser so I guess I can use it to get another battleship if I understand correctly. So Dauntless (110)+Dauntless (110)+Black Ship (350)+Emperor (365)= 935 points. 50 points for Fleet Admiral since I don't need an Inquisitor Lord comes out to 985 points. Becomes even more flexible at 1,500 points.
Isn't this quite over? While I'm an IN player, I do think IN getting quite a lot of goodies is already getting to be too much. If the HA really wants to make this official, hey I won't mind. I still have a leftover Retribution battleship hull which I can use to make into the Black Ship.
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When it comes to Inquisitors and black ships I would much rather see an article detailing the types of nefarious plots that Inquisitors get up to and how this might impact space (ie, huge political impact, very very minimal game impact). This article could include some various escort sized Inquisitor boats (requisitioned civilian ships) and some sub-plots and/or scenarios.
A scenario involving a black ship could be on the cards too. I still believe that black ships would only be transports however. Sure, it might be a treasure ship, but just how many psykers do you expect would be on board at any one time? 10,000? Well a heavy transport would be able to accommodate that many. A blackship the size of a battleship I'd expect to transport a more like 100,000 at least. Why so many on the one ship? The travel time collecting so many psykers would be 10 times as long as if you just had 10 heavy transports each going off on their own routes.
Also, the more psykers the greater the chance that Chaos can find and destroy them (from within or without) also the greater the risk of losing the ship in the warp. With a 10 times longer route this seems more likely. Doesn't seem terribly efficient to me. These ships aren't designed to run the gauntlet or survive an enemy ambush. They're cargo haulers.
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When it comes to Inquisitors and black ships I would much rather see an article detailing the types of nefarious plots that Inquisitors get up to and how this might impact space (ie, huge political impact, very very minimal game impact). This article could include some various escort sized Inquisitor boats (requisitioned civilian ships) and some sub-plots and/or scenarios.
A scenario involving a black ship could be on the cards too. I still believe that black ships would only be transports however. Sure, it might be a treasure ship, but just how many psykers do you expect would be on board at any one time? 10,000? Well a heavy transport would be able to accommodate that many. A blackship the size of a battleship I'd expect to transport a more like 100,000 at least. Why so many on the one ship? The travel time collecting so many psykers would be 10 times as long as if you just had 10 heavy transports each going off on their own routes.
Also, the more psykers the greater the chance that Chaos can find and destroy them (from within or without) also the greater the risk of losing the ship in the warp. With a 10 times longer route this seems more likely. Doesn't seem terribly efficient to me. These ships aren't designed to run the gauntlet or survive an enemy ambush. They're cargo haulers.
I'll give you a really good reason that a black ship is not a battleship. What happens when something goes wrong and those 100,000 psykers escape? Would you really want them to have a battleship, on top everything else? Besides, that black ship that was in the SoB story from BL was a lot smaller then this...
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I can see why its battleship sized. Maybe there are only 10,000 psykers on board. But I suspect we are talking about alot of high level psykers, and we know the Imperium's outlook towards them. I suspect whole segments of deck could be taken up by one holding facility of a high level psyker.
Lots of hull mass being dedicated to isolation, seperation, sororitas barracks, checkpoints, dampening fields, etc. A super prison, with all dedicated to keeping those that are in, in, and keeping those that are out, out.
If there are only a handful of these in the galaxy, I can see them existing. As to risking warp loss, it would be a tragedy to lose it, but from the fluff it seems these things are practically bombarded with holy wards and obviously a super gellar field they won't enter warp without.
Its supposed to be a fortress. Ok. But I'm thinking, isnt a normal battleship brimming with as much defenses as can be had?
Well you can say, there are only a handful of these ships, and yes, they are entirely impractical for cost/benefit but they have a very special purpose.
Alright, but I do have issue then with them spending power on battleship range weapons. Their escort fleet should do most of the heavy lifting.
I say, keep the defensive stats as is, even make it 6+ all around. But no more than cruiser level firepower, battlecruiser at the MOST.
And nothing above 30cm. That would be a highly specialized ship I could get behind.
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Allow me to put foreword a suggestion
Replace the stats of the blackship with that of a grand cruiser. I suggest using the governor's stats for such a vessel, and increase armor to 6.
currently.. yeah sorry nate... If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and orders exterminatus like a duck, it's still a battleship, even if it's weapons are weak.
Battleship status is not a matter of weapon strength, it's a matter of stats, specifically, the 10-12 hits, 3-4 shields and turrets, cannot CTNH.
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Totally not true. If it doesnt have battleship weapons capability, it doesnt fulfill the role of a battleship.
But it kinda does. So I completely advocate total 6+ armor, and not sure if it deserves a 5th shield. But either way, no 60cm weaponry, and not quite as much. Make an impregnable fortress, sure. But it punches too hard right now.
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Yup, looks like a battleship (12 hp, 6+/5+ armor, 20 cm speed, 5 shields, 5 turrets), quacks like a battleship (total FP16@60 cm WBs, Str 2 lances, Str 6 torps) and so it really is a battleship.
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You just included weapons stats, which was against what zelnik was arguing in the first place, which my statement was arguing against.
And my point was it wouldnt be a battleship if its weapons were reduced.
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Well, the stats themselves are quite a factor in proving that the proposed Black Ship is a battleship regardless of what Nate says about it not being a battleship. Battleship chassis stats with battleship weaponry and strength usually means it is a battleship. Now if it had battlship chassis size but cruiser weapons and strength, then it would mainly be an oversized cruiser. If it had battleship weaponry but the chassis stats of a transport then it would be a strong Armed Merchant Transport.
Personally speaking, I wouldn't be putting 100,000 psykers on one ship anyway. Especially one that would be difficult to destroy if Chaos manages to get its clutches on it by having it defect.
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It's the 'walks like a duck, quacks like a duck' argument. To use an example from History, 'They're battlecruisers, not Versailles Treaty violating battleships..."
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Well, the Deutschlands and Scharnhorsts weren't really battleships anyway. They were definitely battlecruisers and had weaker batteries than the real battleships and even most of the battlecruisers of the time.
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But the argument is still valid. This Black Ship has too much offensive firepower, and too much attack weaponry such as torps and lances.
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I like the idea from Nemesis where they use only ships without lance armament but allow to take str 3 dorsal BC to any imperial cruiser for +10 points
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But the argument is still valid. This Black Ship has too much offensive firepower, and too much attack weaponry such as torps and lances.
Using the Deutschlands and Scharnhorsts as examples of "walks like a duck..." is incorrect though. I do understand what the idea is. That the Black Ship IS a battleship especially it's current loadout.
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Hi everyone!! There’s a big set of updates today! If you want to get to it, click the link below.
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q*
Inquisition DRAFT 1.2: Made a few small tweaks based on fan input and corrected some accidental omissions. If you hated the last document, hopefully you will hate this one less. Keep in mind that this is supposed to be a characterful, scenario driven addition to the Imperial fleet lists and is NOT a fleet list in and of itself.
- Nate
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Hmm. Blackship.
Battlecruiser weapon levels. Cruiser range. Battleship+ level defenses. Love it! :)
How much did you fudge on points to get it up to 325? I'd make it 6+ all around armor.
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The GK termies made it into the list. Despite that I'd love to have the option of having these on several GK-SC I feel that it is very unfluffy to ever see more than one of these in operation at any given time. =)
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6+ armor on the Blackship, Nate? Think it should be so.
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Draft 3.2, P5, Stryxis Trade Cruiser Notes box has this error:
"It functions as a standard lance in all respects. It functions as a standard lance in all respects."
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Draft 3.2, P5, Stryxis Trade Cruiser Notes box has this error:
"It functions as a standard lance in all respects. It functions as a standard lance in all respects."
I'm pretty sure this wording is actually necessary. It [indeed] functions as a standard lance in all respects. Just has to tell you twice to make sure that you don't think that it doesn't.
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Good morning. I am new to the BFG community and have been lurking on the boards for some time. Decided to join in the discussions as I have read through and felt I had some items that may contribute to the overall product.
First, I was wondering about the Inquisitor as fleet commander. The core rules seem to imply that the fleet co0mmander is a 0-1 chioce for an entire fleet. So, I am just wondering if that means that an Inquistor, if taken, would count as a 0-1 fleet commander or if it would be in addition to the fleet commander of any given Imperial fleet. I wonder because fluff indicated that an Inquisitor can either take direct command of a set of forces or issue his directives through the commander of those forces. This opens the possibility that the Inquisitor could either be the fleet commander or in addition to the fleet commander of the the fleet that the Inquisitor is included in with being able to only have 0-1 Inquisitors per fleet.
Second is just a point of clarification. In the Ordo Xenos inquisitor entry, it specifies Xenos ships for boarding actions and for the extra points worth of escorts that are available to the Xenos fleet without directly clarifying what fleets count as Xenos fleets. I figure the fleets being referenced include corsair and craftworld eldar, dark eldar, necrons, tyranids, and tau and their allies. I exclude Chaos as they are not technically xenos but comitted to the Warp and it's 4 Powers. I also wonder how this would interact with Rogue Traders that have Xenos vevssels in their fleet as well as any Imperial fleet that takes a Rogue Trader that includes Xenos vessels(This obviously exlcudes any fleets that have Space Marine vessels) :).
Third is just a minor edit under the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor to make it read more easily. Chaos fleets are noted for being able to upgrade one ship to Daemon status or take one Mark of Chaos without cost per Grey Knights strike cruiser. It would flow more smoothly if it were worded "The enemy Chaos fleet may add one Mark of Chaos or upgrade a cruisser to a daemonship at no cost for each Grey Knights strike cruiser in the fleet."
Have a great day!
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Pst. Blackship needs 6+ all around armor. Recommend 15cm speed as well.
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Hi all! BIG changes here! I'll re-post this in all the pertinent places.
First of all, the FAQ/Errata is DONE!!! A LOT of work went into this, an dit will remain in draft form for another week jusnt in case there's a few more kinks to work out that all of us missed, but this is essentially what the FAQ will look like. Sorry it took so long to get right, and sorry we pushed it so close to 2011!! Barring any unforeseen problems, we should be able to stamp this FINAL sometime around December 27th. SPECIAL THANKS to Horizon and Masque- I've decided to give them every dime I make from this effort! :P
Rogue Traders DRAFT v3.5: Like the FAQ, the Rogue Traders saw a lot of back and forth so the version number is quite different. VERY SPECIAL THANKS to Sam Shepherd, the creative design lead from Fantasy Flight Games that took the time to square our Rogue Traders with their Rogue Traders! How cool is that? ;D Now we just have to keep tweaking it until it's right.
Powers of Chaos DRAFT v2.8: A few changes and tweaks here, specifically to the Hecate, Inferno and fleet lists. It's still in work, but we're getting very close to what the final product will look like. Chaos is already a pretty solid fleet so most of the changes here were to correct balancing issues as opposed to anything else.
Inquisition DRAFT v1.4: A few formatting changes and minor tweaks, but nothing really different here- it's still in work.
Well, that's it! The link to all the files is in my signature. I'll be leaving town for a week and will try to stay in touch. Keep your smiles on, game on and MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
- Nate
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Just noticed that the points are different for the Inquisitorial Cruiser, 270pts in the description (p.5) and 275 in the summary (p.7)
*edit*
It seems possible to have both an Inquisitor Lord and a Master of the Fleet (by choosing a SM list) in the same fleet as it is stated that the Inquisitor doesn't have to be the commander. In a 1500pts list (to have one Inq. Cruiser) one MUST have a Master of the fleet and MAY also have an Inq Lord and not necessarily as the commander (giving a theoretical maximum of 5 fleet rerolls and two terminator carrying ships?). :D
I did misread the SM list (20101023) thinking it was possible to allocate a SM Captain with honour guard to SC's, but this wasn't the case. However this would be a very lovely/fluffy (IMO) option to GK SC and I'd be more than happy to pay +35pts per cruiser for that option/ability.
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Okay, first a minor nitpick (excuse me if it was mentioned before): As far as I remember the black ships belong to the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, so they are not directly affiliated with the Inquisition. I think they should be accepted as nice and flavourful mission objectives like a craftworld and not as the inquisitorial battleship.
I love the inclusion of the former inquisitorial black ships, but I'm not sure about the changes (higher battery range but only torpedoes OR attack craft) maybe the old version would be good as an option...
Grey Knights strike cruiser... I like it, what's not to like. However I would prefer it if it would be bound to the Ordo Malleus inquisitor and if there were also a Deathwatch strike cruiser and a Sororitas or Arbites strike cruiser for Ordo Xenos and Hereticus. An alternative would be to allow Deathwatch escorts instead of a strike cruiser, according to their RPG rulebook they often use the Gladius and Hunter classes.
Now to the Inquisitors.
I hate the one from the Ordo Hereticus, which is perfectly fine. ;)
I like the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, however it should be "choose one" instead of "roll once against the following table" the Ordo Xenos definitely hasn't worse access to xenotechnology than a Rogue Trader (who can choose for +5 points). Additionally I can understand the points for not adding xenos ships to a space marine chapter fleet but I don't see the Deathwatch deserting an Inquisitor because they have to fight alongside a few aliens for one battle. I think being able to buy one alien cruiser for its normal point cost +20 or something like that would be okay.
Now the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor. I'm unhappy. In the Codex Demonhunters you couldn't take Grey Knights when you were using Daemonhosts. In BFG you can't take Grey Knights when you take a bunch of ships from older imperial designs? What exactly is the Inquisitor doing? Hiring chaos raiders? But if he did they would leave after his death instead of getting the strange happenings rule... Maybe I'm crazy, but I think to properly get rid of his Grey Knights the Inquisitor should at least take a demonship. ;D That's the closest thing to a daemonhost BFG has.
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Additionally I can understand the points for not adding xenos ships to a space marine chapter fleet but I don't see the Deathwatch deserting an Inquisitor because they have to fight alongside a few aliens for one battle. I think being able to buy one alien cruiser for its normal point cost +20 or something like that would be okay.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Given that the Deathwatch are, to my knowledge, trained to root out all alien influence, why would they tolerate even a temporary alliance? The battle might not be very long, but the fleet isn't just going to be brought together the day before, the alien ships will have to be part of the larger Imperial fleet for some time before, and probably after the battle (due to the time it takes to find the enemy, time to learn fleet manouvres {possibly}, and time it takes to bring all the ships together in the first place, as the warp can delay ships for days or even weeks). Easily enough time for the alien's presence to annoy the Deathwatch enough for them to abandon the Inquisitor.
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Given that the Deathwatch are, to my knowledge, trained to root out all alien influence, why would they tolerate even a temporary alliance?
Because the Deathwatch are Space Marines who work with the Ordo Xenos and can't be compared to the puritan brainwashed Grey Knights or the holier-than-holy Sororitas. Deathwatch Marines can be far more radical and commit heresies like supplying the Inquisition with xenotech for use and/or reverse engineering. Interesting passage from the Deathwatch RPG:
"Despite the many clashes between Humanity and the Eldar, there have been many occasions when the two races have fought side by side. This is generally when a common enemy, usually Chaos, is faced. However, the Eldar have also lent their power to the fight against the Tyranids. Such operations are tense, for the common soldier is indoctrinated to hate and fear the xenos, and the Eldar, all too human in their appearance, are especially reviled. Even the most disciplined of Space Marines finds it hard to stay his hands against such enemies, and it is often the case that the Deathwatch is the only force able to share a battlefield with the Eldar without losing control and opening fire on their allies." (p. 315)
A Malleus Inquisitor can't take Grey Knights if he summons demons because they would put him down for treason. Space Marines won't let an Inquisitor order them to fight alongside aliens (allowing them to command them at all is more than enough). However, Deathwatch Space Marines do already take orders from the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors, both puritan and mildly radical.
The battle might not be very long, but the fleet isn't just going to be brought together the day before, the alien ships will have to be part of the larger Imperial fleet for some time before, and probably after the battle (due to the time it takes to find the enemy, time to learn fleet manouvres {possibly}, and time it takes to bring all the ships together in the first place, as the warp can delay ships for days or even weeks). Easily enough time for the alien's presence to annoy the Deathwatch enough for them to abandon the Inquisitor.
They would have to commandeer a warp capable ship to get away and they would have to defy a direct order. If they were ordered to serve as bodyguard and assault troops for an Inquisitor they have to. They don't have to like to work with xenos, but they can't simply go. (Additionally them not being there was probably meant to show that the Inquisitor simply didn't take them along like the Grey Knights and the Malleus Inquisitor, but there is simply not that much of a reason. Imperial propaganda damns xenos along with witches, mutants and demons, but there is simply not the same stigma attached to working with aliens. Marneus Calgar did it, Pedro Kantor did it, Inquisitor Czevak did it....
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Where are xenos escorts allowed?
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In addition to previous my post...or maybe just a clarification:
Do an Inq cruiser/Blackship have a SM crew as default? (How to determine its Ld 6-9 or 8-10 and would this affect any current boarding modifiers like the Blackship having additional +2 for SM crew)
Do an Inq Cruiser have to pay for the ability indicated at p.7 (as an embarking -I-Lord has probably already paid for this)
Quote: "Notes: In addition to the profile listed above, Inquisitorial cruisers follow special rules specific to the Ordo they serve under for the point costs listed on page 7."
Do Inq Cruisers and GK SC have Thunderhawk Annihilators in their launch bays?
Regarding GK Strike Cruisers: The option of purchasing them from Armada may be superseded by the new Marine list instead? Armada has no options for SC's but in the new Space Marines Fleets (FINAL 20101023) pdf any SC can take Honour Guard for +10pts (this would definitely reflect their fluff regarding skills vs regular marines IMO).
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Thanks for the feedback, everyone! The Inquisition draft rules have been updated with a few changes and corrections, and v1.5 is now up on the Repository page.
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Why no 6+ armor on the Black Ship?
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With 5 shields and 5 turrets? It shouldn't have 6+ all around armor.
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Might as well, considering its purpose. Much easier to do 6+ than 5 shields anyway, I'd guess. The purpose of prow armor is linebreaking, it doesn't make sense considering this thing would be trying to avoid any conflict.
You could count the number of these things in the galaxy on a your fingers, so its a super rare, super expensive investment, and its a 300+ point treasure ship with cruiser weaponry. 6+ armor seems like it would have happened before 5 shields.
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?
Black Ships aren't made for line breaking.
They are made to run & transport.
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That was my point, actually.
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Roll a couple of dice and see how hard it would be for direct fire and bombers to do damage to a fully 6+ armored ship with 5 shields and 5 turrets.
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My point, exactly.
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Yes and my point was it shouldn't have it because it's an oversized transport.
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I may be mad, but the Inquisition cruiser seems a little... weak for it's points. It really should have both the prow launch bays and the prow torpedo's, just like in the old PDF. You get SO few of them, it should only make sense that they are strong enough to survive the inevitable firepower they will draw, and be able to dish it out.
Also, the Grey Knights need a battle barge option, even if it's the Diabolis Extremis (which i happen to love!)
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Also, the Grey Knights need a battle barge option, even if it's the Diabolis Extremis (which i happen to love!)
Why would they? They're not that many.
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because they are a very mobile space marine chapter? They are located close to mars, so they have access to it?
Because they can?
They are a -space marine- chapter.. AND the one that is normally sent to eradicate other space marine chapters. Without a mobile base of operations, they probably would not get far.
Another important note: The next codex to be released focuses on the inquisition and the grey knights.
I think we would be missing a HUGE opportunity to not include it, not to mention a sisters of battle strike cruiser (since they use the same equipment as space marines)
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I did some thinking, here are some ideas for a Grey knights barge
May -only- be taken in a pure Grey knights fleet. Only an Ordo-Malleus Inquisitor lord is allowed to be embarked on this vessel.
Grey Knights Battle Barge "Penitent Warrior" 440 points
Battleship/12 20cm, 45o, 6+ armor, 4 shields, 4 turrets
Armament
Port st 12 weapon batteries 45cm L
starboard st 12 weapon batteries 45cm R
Dorsal Bombardment cannon st 8 FLR 30cm
Prow Torpedo's St 6 F
Prow Thunderhawk Bay st 3.
Special Rules:
May not CTNH.
Chariot of Purity: The Penitent Warrior displays the very height of Imperial technology, with power and engine systems that are the envy of other chapters. This vessel rolls an additional 1d6 on all ahead full special orders. The Penitent warrior is covered in protective runes and sigils that negate the effects of the marks of chaos.
The Penitent Warrior may replace it's prow torpedo's with the following weapon systems for no extra cost
Prow bombardment cannon, st 8 30cm F
Prow Psychic Cannon, st 1 45cm F
Prow Lance, st 3 30cm FLR
You may take the Penitent Warrior in a fleet of at least 1500 points, must embark an Ordos Malleus inquisitor lord, and only take Grey Knights Strike Cruisers and space marine strike craft to support it.
The Psychic Cannon: An ancient device of mysterious origin, it fires a massive blast of psychic energy at a target vessel. Designed to destroy or banish demon ships, it is still capable of incapacitating other vessels, and follows the following rules.
The psychic cannon fires like a lance, but hits on a 5+ (as it is more difficult to aim). It may not be fired if the ship is crippled.
If it strikes a ship with shields up, place a blast marker on the vessel as if it were hit with a normal lance.
If it strikes a ship with it's shields down, it causes one point of damage, and the following effect takes place:
IF a Demonship: It is immediately thrown back to the warp, and on a 4+, is destroyed. If not destroyed it cannot heal the damage dealt by the psychic cannon.
IF a normal ship: The vessel's weapon strength is halved for the next round
If a Tyranid ship: Synaptic control is knocked out for that vessel for one round. (if this is a hive ship, you cannot use it for re-rolls or rolling leadership. It's weapons are not effected).
The above effects DO NOT HAPPEN if the attack was successfully braced.
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because they are a very mobile space marine chapter? They are located close to mars, so they have access to it?
Because they can?
They are a -space marine- chapter.. AND the one that is normally sent to eradicate other space marine chapters. Without a mobile base of operations, they probably would not get far.
And the Strike Cruiser can't suffice for this purpose because? Again, they're not that many. Definitely much much less than a Space Marine Chapter. They wouldn't be able to have enough serfs and servitors to man a Strike Cruiser much less a Battle Barge. If they need to battle in space, the Inquisitor can just ask for IN help.
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Where does it say GK have less numbers than normal chapters? Even if they had 666 members, thats enough to warrant a barge ;)
I always figured sisters rode around on whatever, or ecclisiarchy ships, if they are allowed to have any. Not sure about that actually.
Daemonhunter cruisers?
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So far there isn't really a Grey Knights Codex at the moment. They are included in a codex with mixed models. Maybe the new codex will come out with something more substantial. But the fact that there is a mix suggests they're not really that many.
Even their origins, remnants of the Death Guard (around 70-ish) during the time of the Heresy, is additional proof and the fact that they're also the Chapter(?) which doesn't recruit just anyone off the streets. They have to make sure that the individual they choose is pious and pure that he won't defect to Chaos. That means a more stringent vetting procedure which means less recruits than norm.
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Death Guard? ::)Oh, is that new BL fluff?
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More or less that's what the Horus Heresy series points out to. Main storyline is in Flight of the Eisenstein. Question now is whether it will translate to the codex which is what I am waiting for. Of course it could all be hogwash but everything points to the GK as seen much more rarely than even the regular SMs.
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That's because they work in silence, and know better then to be anything more then a damn good reason to NOT fall to chaos.
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As to the blackship, you are right, it is a huge transport. But not like a high conveyor or whatever. Its a super prison and super treasure ship, the Imperium's absolute best effort to keep its cargo away from unwanted hands. 6+ armor seems more a no brainer than 5 shields even.
It already is battleship points for cruiser weaponry, but if it needed a slight points hike for 6+ armor, then so be it.
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I wouldn't put a ship full of psykers in a ship which will almost be nigh impossible to kill. What happens if they turn traitor? Think it will be easy to take it out? Sorry, no, 6+/5+ is good enough for a ship with 5 shields and turrets.
As for GK working in silence, really, they're just not that many of them.
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Oh come on, why not make it 4+ in that case? ^^
Its a super prison with sororitas and other holy types. I don't see defection likely.
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Admiral... really sometimes your arguments give me radiation poisoning.
there are not that many space marines in general, typically only 1000 per chapter, unless you consider the really outlandish groups like black templars.
Admiral, first things first, question the merits of the ship on it's rules. As the new book is coming out, I am sure their numbers will grow. If they need to attack Space marine fortress monistaries or homeworlds, strike cruisers would simply NOT cut it. You know this as well as I do.
Look, I hate marines too, but I am trying to help this game follow the wave that will result when the new book comes out. Giving them a barge (which if you had paid attention to the rules, really is not that different then any other barge, aside from a few small toys). This is about the game more then our petty hate of the space marines.
and don't let Baron know i said that, otherwise he will -never- let me live it down!
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@Zelnik: It's not about hate. I had a GK army before. I just don't see GKs meriting a Battle Barge. Strike Cruisers would be enough to transport the whole kit and kaboodle anywhere they're needed. They never had a Battle Barge when they were created so they wouldn't get hand me downs. The IN fleet which the Inquisition could appropriate is enough if they needed to exterminate a planet. That's just my position. Nothing about hate. If i think based on background they have a dreadnought, hey, I would push for it. But as it is, I just don't think they merit one at this stage.
@lastspartacus: sure there's no risk. There's been defections of true battleships, even moreso with the lesser stuff. From IN to SM Chapters. And you think a ship with psykers even with Sororitas won't defect?
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Where does it say the grey knights don't have a barge?
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Doubt its ever happened. And its a lame reason not to better protect it :) You could argue the same for every defensive implement. But thats not how the Imperium does things.
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Where does it say the grey knights don't have a barge?
Where does it say that they do?
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Doubt its ever happened. And its a lame reason not to better protect it :) You could argue the same for every defensive implement. But thats not how the Imperium does things.
Again, it already is better protected than an IN battleship. Anything more and they would have a hard time taking it down it it does defect. So it may be a lame reason but still a valid reason nonetheless and a reason I have given. You haven't given any valid reason why it should have 6+ all around armor.
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Are you serious? did you just say that? REALLY?
Admiral, if someone asks you to back up your statement, you either show evidence or say "i have none". Every damn argument you make from this moment foreword had better have evidence backing it up or you will be ignored from this moment onward.
you don't just go "who says they do?" It lowers the intellectual level of the forum and makes you look like a troll.
back up your claims.
But to answer your question: They are a space marine chapter. Every space marine chapter GETS A BARGE. Even the newest and most untested chapters get barges. Grey knights are sent to invade demon worlds, rogue chapters and anything involving demon infestation. Some of these things REQUIRE a barge (especially exterminatus missions)
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SM lances method of argumentation much?
But I possess no vitriol like the above statement :)
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Are you serious? did you just say that? REALLY?
Admiral, if someone asks you to back up your statement, you either show evidence or say "i have none". Every damn argument you make from this moment foreword had better have evidence backing it up or you will be ignored from this moment onward.
you don't just go "who says they do?" It lowers the intellectual level of the forum and makes you look like a troll.
back up your claims.
But to answer your question: They are a space marine chapter. Every space marine chapter GETS A BARGE. Even the newest and most untested chapters get barges. Grey knights are sent to invade demon worlds, rogue chapters and anything involving demon infestation. Some of these things REQUIRE a barge (especially exterminatus missions)
Not all the new Chapters get BBs. Claims work both ways as well as ignoring arguments. So, show/back up your claim as well. You show it, I'll change my position. Otherwise, we're just both in the same boat of having no evidence to back things up.
The way GKs work, they normally are called in along with the Inquisitors to assist them. Rarely does the whole GK go into one battle together. With Exterminatus missions, they can get assistance from the IN assuming the SC is not enough.
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SM lances method of argumentation much?
But I possess no vitriol like the above statement :)
Yeah and those lances have to go through 5 shields before it starts eating into the ship's structure. Means at least 2 Gothics, most likely 3. Not that easy. At which point, the defecting Black Ship goes into warp and a shipload of Psykers is now lost.
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Directly from Lexicanum
Most chapters control two or three Battle Barges designed to deploy a fighting force to planets in a rapid fashion.
This information comes DIRECTLY from the BFG rulebook.
I am asking for -one-.
Shut up, admiral and troll somewhere else.
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The Grey knights don't seem like they would use a battle-barge. They're slow for one thing, and another it doesn't seem likely that they would need a large contingent of grey knights ever. In the fluff the few times that they are mentioned there is never more than 30 in one place (although we will be seeing differently with the new GK codex... ugh... ruined my favorite 40k army, Inquisition with inducted guard).
So battlebarge isn't something necessary for them, or even likely, as they are so alien to any other marine chapter out there.
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So they attack space marine homeworlds, demon worlds, or other barges with strike cruisers alone? why do i not believe this?
They are still a chapter, alien and mysterious, but they still have access to all of the same toys.
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I imagine that if the GKs are chastising another SM chapter it would be with the support of the IN. They are after all, meant to be the ones holding all the cards in space. Doesn't make much sense for a force dedicated to defeating SMs (amongst other things) to be riding around in ships that give the SMs a fair fight.
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Heya,
Grey Knights, tidbits:
Most of the Chapter's strength is spread through the Imperium, ensuring that the fighting skills of the Grey Knights can be quickly called upon by the Ordo Malleus wherever a daemonic incursion may occur. These small forces are often stationed thousands of light years from their fortress-monastery for decades at a time, and are usually organised into small teams that have trained and fought together for their entire lives.
Most of the Chapter's strength is spread through the Imperium, ensuring that the fighting skills of the Grey Knights can be quickly called upon by the Ordo Malleus wherever a daemonic incursion may occur. These small forces are often stationed thousands of light years from their fortress-monastery for decades at a time, and are usually organised into small teams that have trained and fought together for their entire lives.
The Grey Knights have a special preference for the use of teleportation, or more specifically the use of deep strike technology. There is a beautiful irony in using the origin of the enemy as a means of transport, and then proceeding to purge the surrounding area of their taint.
Chapter fleet
Like other Space Marine chapters, the Grey Knights' primary mode of transportation is the strike cruiser class of ship that is exclusive to the chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. The Grey Knights' ships however are specially modified in several ways. One is the hexagrammic and anti-daemonic wards that are built into the entire ship from bridge to landing struts and every bulkhead in between, similar to those that are placed under the skin of the Grey Knights themselves that lend the ship added protection from the forces of Chaos. Also, the Grey Knights' strike cruisers are equipped with significantly more advanced armour than the ships of other chapters. This is to allow them to close with more powerful foes and reach their destination safely since the Grey Knights have to fight more powerful enemies than the standard Adeptus Astartes chapters. Finally, the landing and drop pod bays are enlarged to be able to deploy larger numbers of marines faster.
The modifications to their ships are made possible by two factors. The first is their fortress monastery's location in the rings of Saturn, its close proximity to Mars, the greatest forge world in the Imperium of Man, allowing access to technology that was forgotten or is impossible to replicate anywhere else in the Imperium (this could also explain the high quality of all Grey Knights equipment). The other reason is the resources that the Ordo Malleus gives the Grey Knights due to their close working relationship as the Ordo's Chamber Militant.
So:
small in numbers per station. Elite. Special Strike Cruisers.
I think they will use more Strike Cruisers indeed. with special teleporters (teleport through shields?), faster, extra anti-daemon protection. And to their stealthy tactics a barge is less suited.
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I dunno about those quotes... Mars loses at making plasma weapons... Ryza is win in that field... every decent plasma-armed thing came out of that forge world.
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That last entry you quoted Horizon seems ... well, off. GK SCs have extra armour? How much extra than 6+ can you get? GKs chapter is spread thinly over the entire Imperium and yet they have the facilities to drop more marines faster? Er, why? There are going to be fewer of them in any one area than even normal SMs. Also, why wouldn't regular SMs be clamouring for that tech to become standard? Seems silly.
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It is from lexicanum is from official codex and such iirc.
Extra armour = double six to be rolled. ;)
j/k
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Possibly make it a 7 hit cruiser?
I had a battle with them, led by an ordo malleus inquisition cruiser. five strikes, six nova's and the cruiser. It didn't go well.
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I don't remember where I read it, but I read that the GK chapter has about 5000 marines. Yes, it's a lot much than every other chapter. The reason for this was that they are spread through all the galaxy, unlike the other chapters
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I've always felt that the fluff of the 40k universe was intriguing (and subject to much debate) but the effect of the rules of the game made it something entirely different. I pretty much stopped playing 40k with the release of 3rd ed. The way GW endorse the use of SM makes it seems like any given chapter is at least 100.000 marines across the galaxy. Even if GK where only 5000 it would be safe to assume that about 4000 of those would be stationed in the Sol system (without needing further explanation I hope?). As for fluff, seeing a single GK SC would indicate that something is seriously bad as their normal state is probably a squad aboard a IN cruiser and teleported into battle and not roaming around as an entire army.
As for the Inquisition draft, the quote from Horizon about them having better armour is fairly represented by the 50% increase in shield strength and the +5D6cm for AAF compared to the regular SM SC.
If every sentence from a fluff must be converted into a rule literally then this leaves few option as it is core breaking to have something more than 6+ armour. Try instead to accept that fluff and rules are not always symbiotic with each other.
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Directly from Lexicanum
Most chapters control two or three Battle Barges designed to deploy a fighting force to planets in a rapid fashion.
This information comes DIRECTLY from the BFG rulebook.
I am asking for -one-.
Shut up, admiral and troll somewhere else.
Don't tell me to shut up. I haven't been trolling, I don't know what's got your goat. What's your problem? I haven't been insulting you. I haven't been heckling you. I've just been using your own arguments against you. Hey if you can't handle the heat, you leave.
If you have proof bring it out and I'll amend my position. I'd be the first to admit I'm fallible and I can change my views. I'm presenting my point of view as to why GKs don't have to have a Battle Barge. As you noted, the entry said "most" meaning there are quite a few which won't have the BBs which to remind you I said not all SM chapters have BBs. You can try to convince me. However, presenting your argument in your rude manner of telling other people to shut up and making baseless accusations won't change my mind one bit.
Again, I might be persuaded that they may have a BB. However, do they really need one? Maybe. So far all the reasons why you think they should have one is easily countered by the fact that the Inquisition can just call on the help of the IN esp since the way I understand it they fall under the auspices of the Inquisition as all the info I have read on them have them following the commands of the Inquisition. Even the quote by Horizon convinces me they will lean more towards SCs than a BB. Aside from which I believe there aren't that many of them. If I am mistaken, then enlighten me. Do you have info on how many there really are?
If they do get one, then as YOU have been pointing out with respect to the other SM in the other SM related threads, it should be a generic battle barge, not one which can take an additional BCs (FP16 total now is it on top of FP12 WBs? Will check again) on the prow cannon or Psychic cannon because once you start adding options, it's not ONE BB anymore it's two or more. Weapons on ships aren't easily swapped out. I'm even dubious about a psychic cannon myself (imagine the number of psykers needed to power that cannon which can actually affect another ship). Even the GK SC doesn't have one.
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I wasn't comparing lances to the black ship, admiral, I was simply stating the fact that the same methods of argumentation came up in the sm lance thread.
We both have our opinions, and there is no hard fluff that says what armor a black ship has. Here is my reasoning.
Why do Imperial warships have 6+ prow armor? Because the Imperial method of warfare is to close with the enemy head on, firing torpedo volleys, until they get close enough for broadsides. That prow armor is an integral part of their strategy, to take the head on damage and weather it.
A Blackship is a treasure ship, one of the singularly most valuable ships in the galaxy. It is extremely well defended, with only cruiser offensive weaponry. It isn't going to be part of a battle line. Its going to retreat from any serious engagement under the power of its escort fleet.
It will rarely be pointing its prow towards any threat, its far too valuable for that. 6+ armor therefore I consider to be a no-brainer for this ship.
And I hold that the reason of 'it isn't defended as best as possible because they are afraid it would defect' to be a shaky idea. Thats not how the Imperium functions. They prevent defection with multiple redundant restrictions and chains of command, not by weakening their ships.
If a blackship wanted to defect, it could do it much more easily than trying to take on its escorting fleet. Armor matters little in that scenario.
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I've never liked the Idea of psychic powers affecting BFG more than granting a re-roll. Even the most powerful psykers in the galaxy don't do that much in terms of 40k battles. Why would they be able to do damage from thousands of miles away to something that can withstand plasma warheads?
Sure the Niccassar can make their ship more maneuverable, but this is still an escort, and Imaginably they have specifically designed the vessel for this purpose. Also there are quite a few of them onboard.
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What, did someone suggest a psychic power?
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Just talking about the Psychic cannon which has made appearances in fanatic/nemesis.
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The psy cannon itself does not use a psyker as its source of power (i may be wrong on this subject) but instead generates the same power artificially on a massive scale.
Lets not forget that orks can get wn oddboy tower upgrade in campaigns.
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And I hold that the reason of 'it isn't defended as best as possible because they are afraid it would defect' to be a shaky idea. Thats not how the Imperium functions. They prevent defection with multiple redundant restrictions and chains of command, not by weakening their ships.
If a blackship wanted to defect, it could do it much more easily than trying to take on its escorting fleet. Armor matters little in that scenario.
Fine let's set aside this point and focus on combat. While this ship may not have range, this ship has effectively the same weapons as a Retribution has in the 30 cm band. The 30 cm band, however, is the band where most of the battles on the tabletop take place. And here this ship will be heads up above the rest. A fully 6+, 5 Shield and 5 Turret ship with Retribution weaponry will be the hardiest ship on the table, virtually indestructible.
Even if you use lances against it, it will not be hurt easily. Chaos is the fleet with the most long range lances. Even with my Murder-Hades squadron which has 10 lances to use, without re-rolls, it would only be able to take down the shields. With re-rolls maybe do a bit of damage. But that's assuming one goes that lance heavy. Typically, one wouldn't find that many lances in any other fleet and even chaos players don't usually set out using 1 Hades and 3 Murders as their core fleet. Bombers and torps would have the hardest time taking it down. Even A Boats that get through would merely be a nuisance.
At this point, if you do want 6+ all around then the shields and turrets should go down. Otherwise, this ship's defences are fine as it is.
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I'd be fine with that. 6+ armor and 4 turrets is, iirc, roughly the same as 5+ and 5. It just makes more sense to me. If the weapons need to go down a bit, or the points up, so be it. If it goes to 6+ and keeps everything, just make it a 400 point ship.
As to the psychic cannon, its more technological than 'psychic power'.
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We're talking about the black ship right? To be honest I don't see it as BB size. More likely just a transport, or a heavy transport at best. If for some stupid reason it had to be a BB (which seems stupid to me) then I don't see why it should have any weaponry. Sure, give it 6+ all round armour with 5 shields and turrets. No need to give it weaponry. Make it 25cm speed. It's not a warship, it's a glorified transport.
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I think it should have some weapons. I would lose the torpedoes. And possibly some firepower on the batteries.
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I would think the blackship is a glorified transport, probably similar to the super-heavy cargo carrier being released with IA10.
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Its much more than just a transport. I understand why it is b-ship sized.
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Uhm... Well i guess the real question is... what do we want to DO with an inquisition fleet? what slot should they fill in the game?
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I think they'd fit nicely in the bin.
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Wow, harsh sig. Care to back that up?
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Hi everyone! I'm looking back at the posts going back five or six pages, and I see the debate has devolved somewhat into what each person's opinion of what the Grey Knightst should look like, what the ships should look like, what rols Inquisitors should play, etc. Except for the occassional bouts of impoliteness, as a whole this debate is healthy and appreciated.
This document is still in the process of being tweaked, and the profiles will likely be adjusted,keeping in mind that thes ships are intentionally more expensive than their profiles would suggest because of the role they play. However, at this point what I need to know most of all is whether or not any of the rules are actually broken or unclear, meaning there's a conflict built into the rules themselves, something that simply doesn't work, etc.
What I need to make sure of is that the mechanics themselves are clean. While the fluff debate is important, that is not the issue I am trying to address at the moment. Responses like "the whole rule set is only good for the bin," or, "change this profile to that or you can just go get bent," probably makes one feel better but aren't constructive toward making the rule-set playable. Thanks!
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Well, in that case, allow me to display a problem with the inquisition cruiser.
It suffers from "battle barge" syndrome. Namely, it's a huge honkin' target. Unlike the barge, though, it cannot survive this attention for long. It tends to be the first target in the crosshairs of the enemy, and gets bent almost as quick (as the resulting enemy fleet unloads into it).
Either it needs to be able to survive the gauntlet, or more then just one should be allowed to be taken.
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I would simply suggest that the GK need an even greater bonus to close combat than other marines do.
They seem to be able to take on even other marines, while outnumbered, like scythes through wheat.
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Well, in that case, allow me to display a problem with the inquisition cruiser.
It suffers from "battle barge" syndrome. Namely, it's a huge honkin' target. Unlike the barge, though, it cannot survive this attention for long. It tends to be the first target in the crosshairs of the enemy, and gets bent almost as quick (as the resulting enemy fleet unloads into it).
Either it needs to be able to survive the gauntlet, or more then just one should be allowed to be taken.
This is more of a tactics issue as opposed to the rules actually being broken.
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I would simply suggest that the GK need an even greater bonus to close combat than other marines do.
They seem to be able to take on even other marines, while outnumbered, like scythes through wheat.
True, but this is hard to extrapolate to the scale of BFG without making them far more overpowering than any race should be. Suggestions?
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GK ignore enemy race bonuses to boarding and get a +1 themselves?
i dont think inquisition should get a bonus for grey knights though - not enough of them. the only thing i can think of is their general specialization towards killing whichever enemy theyve been sent after. best i can think of is a blanket left shift on gunnery, forcing enemy to reroll ld tests, high attack rating, stuff like that.
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just have them roll 2d6 and pick the highest in boarding actions.
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Let them take a battle barge?
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Assuming they only embark on Strike Cruisers, would +3 instead of the normal marine +2 be overpowered?
Failing that, I approve of the 'marines, but other bonuses to boarding are negated'
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I have a wild idea. Why don't we postpone the creation of this list until the new codex comes out in april. that way we will have a much better idea of what GW wants to do with the army, and we can make a fleet to represent that.
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I have a wild idea. Why don't we postpone the creation of this list until the new codex comes out in april. that way we will have a much better idea of what GW wants to do with the army, and we can make a fleet to represent that.
Not wild. I agree.
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Fluff and all is nice to follow, but BFG is such a huge scale that it is difficult to really account for every minor benefit they might have compared as individual marines. Treating them as (or allowing them to "upgrade") to honour guards just like any regular SC can do in the new astartes fleet would be just enough to represent any fluff on this scale.
I do have 6 GK SC (yes I'm a hypocrite), however just fielding one GK SC with a fleet commander (aka Grand Master) with termies is a suitable representation of the current fluff (IMO).
As of now it would seem reasonable to allow the GK to have any/some options from the astartes list until the 40k release in april, and then adjust a final BFG Inquisition based on their new organisation as suggested in previous posts.
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Yes, wait.
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Well I suppose that is the consensus.
The Demonhunters and Witchhunters are so OLD in the codex line, it's just best to sit, wait, and watch to see what the new codex has to say. It's only a few months, I think we can last.
The Grey knights can survive that long using the standard space marine rules.
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Agreed. codexes can contain valuable fluff insight.
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And now we all must look out our windows to be sure that the world has not cracked in half... the entire board agrees on something
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I agree as well, except that we don’t have until April to get this done. We were supposed to be finished before the New Year so we are already behind.
Much more important to consider is how much the new Codex will actually affect the Grey Knights in BFG, which is far more vast in scope than anything in WH40k. Grey Knights as written in the Inquisition rule-set are already pretty powerful, and it’s hard to add much more to them without turning them into Necrons!
A case in point is the recently-released Dark Eldar Codex. Everyone agrees they needed a reboot, and that’s certainly what they got- they are better in almost every single respect in terms of technology, weapon choices, elites choices, etc. However, for all the improvements, the only thing that would have any affect in BFG terms is possibly the “Power of Pain†rule in regards to boarding actions. Sure all the new stealth tech is nice, but trying to scale that up to BFG terms to make holofields even more potent is simply fanboyism. Now is the Power of Pain worth addressing in the FAQ? Possibly, and we may do so before shipping the FAQ off to GW since we are planning to incorporate small corrections, formatting and line art improvements anyway, but is it really worth it?
The only thing I can think of that would be a game changer in BFG terms is the Grey Knights officially getting battlebarges, which I don’t see being addressed in a WH40k Codex anyway. With all the ways these ships can already be used, I don’t think it’s worth the risk of getting this whole project turned off in the hope that Grey Knights can have battlebarges. If someone wants them so bad, just house-rule it in. Nobody says you can’t.
If you REALLY want to be worried about something, I’d pick the recently-released IA10. For upwards of $75US, this book devotes only six pages to Battlefleet Gothic. If the Taros Campaign is any guide, getting these rules incorporated into the BFG canon is going to be a fun ride. That’s if any new models are even produced- they have been promising a whole collection of new models for BFG since 2004, but we haven’t seen anything since the Tau fleet. Of course I would love to see some new models come out from Forgeworld, but at this point I will be happier when I actually see it.
I’m also worried about how “new†the new rules will be. The Badab War didn’t really introduce anything fantastic in the way of ships besides a war between Space Marine chapters. I’d hate to drop all that coin just to find out they re-hashed rules right out of the rulebook and Armadas. Seeing as how the example page for the Cestus Ram refers to Imperial Shark AB’s in BFG as boarding torpedoes, I’m not holding out a lot of hope. Even if the rules are new and based on past experience, the HA’s will probably take whatever Forgeworld prints in IA10, call it official and be done with it.
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Thanks for the response, Nate!
A LOT of information can come out of a codex, including distribution of forces across the galaxy, fortress monistaries, and yes, battle barges. I am confused, because I fail to see a problem with adding them officially (even as a 0-1 for the fleet) because of a difference of fluff opinion.
The Dark eldar? they need something akin to a hero ship, something that can be a linchpin for the rest of the fleet and allow it to last a little longer in engagements.
Don't see battlebarges addressed in the codex? Thou mad? In the space marine codex alone it described two ultramarine barges and how they use them.
And yes.. the Cestus ram really wanted me to punch someone from forgeworld for not paying attention. I have a friend who is getting the book soon, I will get the info on the ships stats ASAP.
I somewhat doubt they will be as problematic to balance, as they function in a style of a known fleet. They didn't create a whole slew of new ships in this situation
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Yes, rather do a DE update. :)
There is no need for a Grey Knight/Inquisition fleet. No need to push this.
I've seen the ship stats in IA10, aside of a few special weapons nothing odd or balance off-setting to BFG.
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All,
Draft Updates have been uploaded for all four of the last projects the HA’s are working on.
- Battlefleet Bakka DRAFT v1.1
Lots of changes here- too many to list.
- Inquisition DRAFT v1.6
Minor tailoring of points and questions at this stage, slightly improved GK boarding value, improved graphics and formatting.
- Ork Clanz DRAFT v1.3
Fixed and adjusted a number of confusing points, improved graphics and formatting.
- Powers of Chaos DRAFT v3.2
Fixed and clarified a number of confusing points, made some changes to the Powers of Chaos, adjusted some point values, improved graphics and formatting.
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I suppose the GK's can have an 0-1 BB, but I have to discuss it with the HA's.
Happy Birthday.
PS: The Psychic Cannon is DeadDeadDeadDead...
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Yes, rather do a DE update. :)
There is no need for a Grey Knight/Inquisition fleet. No need to push this.
I've seen the ship stats in IA10, aside of a few special weapons nothing odd or balance off-setting to BFG.
GW will not be addressing any updates to fleets in Armadas so NOT working on the DE isn't interfering with anything else.
IS there anything still not addressed in the FAQ concerning the DE? Assume we can make adjustments but NOT core rule changes. Answer this question in the DE thread please.
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Then the question still stands: what about fleets not in Armada/Rulebook? Rogue Traders got an update. Powers of Chaos in the works. What about AdMech & Craftworld Eldar?
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Then the question still stands: what about fleets not in Armada/Rulebook? Rogue Traders got an update. Powers of Chaos in the works. What about AdMech & Craftworld Eldar?
Horizon, this is a great question. Here's the problem- AdMech and the CE already have rules posted to the website. Our mandate was to flesh out the materials that never made it to the website, not to replace materials that are already there. The Powers of Chaos is "cheating" in that it was posted in an unfinished form- it was supposed to be part one of four separate articles (each with its own model) before Fanatic got unplugged. That's the only reason the Powers of Chaos revisits the Terminus Est.
I would love to revisit the Craftworld Eldar and Adeptus Mechanicus because I HATE how the currently-posted articles are formatted, and it would give us a chance to fix them without having to rely on FAQ patches. Someone here (can't remember who) created a WAAY SWEET AdMech list that is formatted far better than the one on the website. If someone could post a link to it, that would be great.
Because of how much it revisits that is essentially a duplicate of other IN fleet lists, I probably wouldn't do graphics and profiles of all the ship classes just to keep the file size down, though they would of course be available on its fleet list. I would pobably do one of each hull type, obviously the Omnissiah's Victory, then save the details for the special rules and fleet list.
As for the CE, I would re-do the whole thing if I thought it had a chance of getting posted to the GW site.
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Nate: here's the link to it. Brother Armond was planning on updating it to fix a few things that bugged him, but that was never completed to my knowledge. I do still have the PSD with the various weapons modules and hulls used by the Admech separated so they can be rearranged to make any of the ships.
http://www.twolandscreative.com/wip/docs/BFG%20%5bCodex%5d%20Adeptus%20Mechanicus.pdf
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Going back on topic, I'm quite happy with the v1.6 changes/additions but there is still a few concerns I've found from earlier versions regarding fleet commanders.
Is it meant to be two commanders as an Inq Lord can't be the overall commander in fleets less than 1500pts but a fleet must have one if 750+? I find nothing that states an Inq Lord can't be in a fleet of less than 1500pts. (a 1200pts fleet may include an Inq Lord but he can't lead it still it must have a commander.)
If an Inq cruiser IS present and is not the most expensive ship the Inq Lord can be placed on the more expensive ship and for example a Master of the Fleet with terminators can be placed on the Inq cruiser. If the Inq Lord is a malleus then the Inq Cruiser gains the malleus abilities, thus turning the Master of the Fleet with termies into a GK Grand Master (sort of) =) Is this correct?
If I have an Inq Cruiser and a more expensive ship, nothing states I must place the Inquisitor nor the admiral/MotF on the Inq Cruiser. In this case does the Inq Cruiser have a normal/IN crew or is it treated as SM?
Do an Inq cruiser have access to Thunderhawk Annihilators?
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I suppose the GK's can have an 0-1 BB, but I have to discuss it with the HA's.
Happy Birthday.
PS: The Psychic Cannon is DeadDeadDeadDead...
That is JUST fine for me. Seriously, a 0-1 will make me happy, and silence a lot of my issues with the fleet.
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I don't understand, why kill the psychic cannon? It was cool how it dealt with daemons and nids, very 'Imperial' in its method of dealing with large warp nasties.
As to the GK boarding abilities, why not just make it 2d6 take highest, like nids?
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Because they cannot be as good as nids. That point was made when they took away chaos' 3+ auto-bonus.
I am happy with it, but I wonder how it will effect Admech, where you already get this bonus.
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Personally, I love the Psychic cannon. It was a unique little piece of pre-heresy tech that really screamed grey knights, and made them something everyone should fear.
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Agreed about the P Cannon.
As to the GK, who says your average tyranid ship is as able in hand to hand as one of the most supreme fighting forces in the galaxy?
Its ok as is, just struck me as odd.
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A few reasons. One including that the Grey Knights were built from the ground up to fight demons, not nids.
Also, one of the few advantages the nids have is incredible boarding, they lost a LOT of glitter with the latest FAQ, it would be wrong to take what little they have left.
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Oh come on, I don't think the rare occassion of a GK strike cruiser meeting a tyranid ship in the game would cause any loss of glitter :)
I know they were made for daemon fighting, but fluff shows that in general, they are REALLY good.
I mean, small numbers of GK scythe through marine chapters without any noticable casualties. And a marine is at least some challenge for any warrior sized entity in the galaxy.
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Lets not forget that all fluff in 40k is hidden under the veil of propaganda. I am sure they are great, but again, at this scale, these specific benefits start to be blurred.
The way it is described in the book, boarding a tyranid ship is like entering a labyrinth of twisting fleshy tunnels that make no sense, filled with tervigon's and other biological nightmares. At the same time, being boarded by a 'nid vessel is not just a matter of "oh my god, there are genestealers in the hull" it's a matter that the SHIP ITSELF is trying to EAT it's target. Huge feeder tendrils and the giant claws certainly aid in the boarding.
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When it comes to the Psychic cannon, Nate.
I KNOW you don't like it, but I would like to know your reasoning behind not allowing it (aside from three pages worth of H8 H8 H8 H8)
It's not like it's broken, or particularly cracky. (you need a 5 to hit for splib's sake.
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Yay to psycic cannon. Why did nate hate it?
As to the Blackship, I believe that it should have either 5+ or 6+ all around armor. For the same reasons, I also believe it should lose the torps entirely.
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I like the torps option, in fact I think it should have both torps and LC. You get one of these babies per 1500, and they are costly. You might as well get what your paying for.
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Hello everyone. First off I like to say that I disagree with the comments that feel that the INQ PDF in unnecessary. In fact, being able represent my Inquisitor Lord in the galactic campaign my friends and I have been playing was the catalyst that got all of us into playing BFG.
One that note I have a few questions about the Hereticus Inquisitor's ability to take a Rogue Trader. The PDF states that "Rogue Traders will be regarded with particular suspicion, though a single Rogue Trader and its attendant escorts may accompany the fleet."
1. Does the "Rogue Trader" refer to the Rogue Trader Cruiser, and if so can the taken cruiser be any of the variant ships, i.e. the Lunar, Tyrant, Carnage, and Murder?
2. Is this ship able to purchase upgrades from the "Best Money Can Buy" table?
3. Does this Rogue Trader ship force you to take the transports that are compulsory in an Exploration fleet list?
I really have enjoyed the ability to take a Rogue Trader in my fleet in games below 750pts, but think that a little more clarification could be used.