Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: BaronIveagh on November 24, 2010, 11:48:15 PM
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Here's something I've been pondering lately, and if it starts to sound like a rant, well, maybe it is.
Now, admittedly, I'm a fairly out of the loop guy. I wasn't aware of anything beyond the books and mags for quite some time. Say, a decade or so. (I was probably one of the last people to sign up for the mailing list, in 2009, and was only made really aware of this board a few days ago.) and I'm fairly crazy (and so are the local gaming groups. we use a 20x40 foot gaming surface for BFG).
I don't think that FAQ2010 is actually fixing the problems that players are having with the game. I've been told that the team does not want to change any ship stats, to avoid power creep. The problem with this is that some ships desperately need changing. Rather then do this, they've created new ships, which try to fill the gaps the old ships should have. Which sort of defeats the point of a FAQ.
Now I'm all for new ships. I love painting the minis and greenstuffing them. But that isn't the point. We have lots of ships already. If the ones from BFGM were 'official', IN in particular would have lots of new options.
What needs fixed, IMHO.
1) Necrons BFI rules.
2) NC/Nightshade spam
3) AC one shotting escorts.
Things that would be nice if we had, but...
1) Better fleet balance
2) Consistency between IN CLs.
3) BFGM ships and lists that didn't make Armada brought in, such as Bakka.
Now, some of this stuff has been addressed in the FAQ. Some of it has not. And a whole lot of stuff we don't actually need has come about.
While I think that Nate et al are trying hard, do you feel satisfied with how things are going?
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BFG Mk 2.0 really needs to be done already. I don't understand why the GW and the HA can't do it esp if they'll just be going the Living Rulebook way. I don't understand why there is hesitation. They have a good resource to use, the community, which can give them good feedback. They could do this in as little as 6 months to 1 year. If they really wanted to.
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What does BFG need? mostly for GW to have an entirely new marketing staff and board of directors.
What killed blood bowl and BFG in popularity was a sudden shift in company policy, focusing more on the 'quick and easy' profits, instead of 'selling a good product'. Recently this has shifted a little further back to 'selling a good product', but not enough for GW to care.
If you have ever been to a GW job recruitment session, you can see the new business model, with all specialist games down at a tiny point in the end. BFG is trapped in a catch 22: The game does not sell enough to advertise-no point in advertising a barely profitable game.
GW will probably close down all specialist games within a few years, and halt all miniature production, BFG included.
Ironically, if GW gave BFG the same amount of advertising that they gave LOTR, which nearly bankrupted their company, The game would probably be flourishing.
I am sorry to say this guys, but more then likely, BFG will never see the light of new mini's again. After the 2010 FAQ, they will probably close the door on the game as well.
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Yeah, I've heard they're ending Epic, so BFG probably isn't far behind. Which probably means I should order my FW minis now rather the later...
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Ending Epic: ehm. No.
FAQ2010 is great.
The blue print for BFG2.0
What needs fixed, IMHO.
1) Necrons BFI rules.
2) NC/Nightshade spam
3) AC one shotting escorts.
1) No change needed, why so?
2) NC: not needed. Nightshade: need costing between 50-60pts (Hemlock as well).
3) Is dealt with : aboats 4+ to escorts. Bombers do not one shot them.
add:
4) Dropping of official Eldar rules.
Things that would be nice if we had, but...
1) Better fleet balance
2) Consistency between IN CLs.
3) BFGM ships and lists that didn't make Armada brought in, such as Bakka.
1) BFG has a reasonable good balance
2) We're swaying them sometime.
3) Not really, lot of BFGM isn't good enough
I like the drafts!!!
The new Tau, Marine lists are a really good direction.
edit:
Ironically, if GW gave BFG the same amount of advertising that they gave LOTR, which nearly bankrupted their company, The game would probably be flourishing.
Sigh
LotR made GW most money ever! If GW wouldn't have had that money SG would've been ditched several years ago.
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Pretty much all of the 2010 faq is useful and necessary stuff. Explaining various rules 'errors' and etc. Yes, it is the blueprint for 2.0, no it's not 2.0, but it's as close as we may ever get.
I don't really get why the HA's have decided to add new ships rather than doing any revising of the older ones. A lot of ships deserve some minor changes, if not in stats, then in points value. Some even deserve a small points increase (I'm looking at you devestation). Power creep is always an issue, but the fact is that it sells models, and isn't that in a way a bit of what we're looking for? to increase GW's sales of BFG?
The thing is trying to get it as close as possible. Honestly I could probably name half the vessels of any given fleet that deserve some slight modification, even if it is just a 5 point change.
Well.. since I'm on the subject here's my opinion of which ones need revised and the reasons why:
Chaos:
Devestation/Styx: Both are at least fairly available ships in the chaos fleet, the problem with the styx isn't exactly that it's over costed (which it is), but that the Devestation is slightly undercosted. The internal balance here needs to be addressed.
Carnage/Murder: I feel that this is a bit more for fluff reasons, but the main problem is that the carnage can get 10wb at 60cm instead of 45 like the murder, and at 45... well it has more firepower in the one arc for 10 points more. The murder is supposed to be the chaos equivalent of the lunar class, and I rarely see them taken. I think that making the prow lance lfr would be adequate.
Retaliator: the only grand cruiser that has issues, but like the styx, it is beaten out by cheap devestations
Battleships: The Planet killer outshines the other two, but it's expensive, I'd probably leave it alone as it is a character ship. The despoiler has some issues. The desolator is probably fine.
Escorts: the iconoclast should be reduced by 5pts as it is a very weak escort that needs to be close to enemy fire. The other two are fine, but some people complain about the idolators confusion of roles.
IN:
Battleships: The Apocalypse class; I don't know how it will do now that it has it's critical effect faq'd, but it does deserve a bit of revision... maybe. Then there's the Oberon-Emperor problem, where the Oberon has a confusion of roles, and the Emperor is slightly undercosted.
Tyrant/Dominator: for 5pts more you get more weapons batteries and a nova cannon! basically for 15 points the tyrant gets a few wb at a marginally longer range, but fewer of them. I would drop the Tyrants cost.
Dictator: I don't know what to do with this, it's just severely unpopular compared to the mars and emperor options for LBs
Excorcist: I never see people take these, but this is likely because it is a weird carrier, better replaced by a mars or emperor.
Endeavor Variants: These all have issues.... A lot of them....
Firestorms: Well... these have kind of a confusion of roles, and can't compete with the swords or cobras... I would drop their points..
That's at least for the two 'main' BFG fleets. *Ducks for flame*
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Hi,
I don't really get why the HA's have decided to add new ships rather than doing any revising of the older ones. A lot of ships deserve some minor changes, if not in stats, then in points value.
On this point I agree and as stated in the powers of chaos thread/Chaos ships I rather see existing ships corrected then new ones added.
Devestation/Styx: Both are at least fairly available ships in the chaos fleet, the problem with the styx isn't exactly that it's over costed (which it is), but that the Devestation is slightly undercosted. The internal balance here needs to be addressed.
The Styx is pointed correct for its unique place, the Devestations needs upping or a drop of lances to 45cm.
Carnage/Murder: I feel that this is a bit more for fluff reasons, but the main problem is that the carnage can get 10wb at 60cm instead of 45 like the murder, and at 45... well it has more firepower in the one arc for 10 points more. The murder is supposed to be the chaos equivalent of the lunar class, and I rarely see them taken. I think that making the prow lance lfr would be adequate.
Murder is taken enough (adm A, Vaaish, etc).
Battleships: The Planet killer outshines the other two, but it's expensive, I'd probably leave it alone as it is a character ship. The despoiler has some issues. The desolator is probably fine.
Desolator is great. For Despoiler I offered stats.
Escorts: the iconoclast should be reduced by 5pts as it is a very weak escort that needs to be close to enemy fire. The other two are fine, but some people complain about the idolators confusion of roles.
Difficult. 6 Iconoclast for 150 pts = 18 wb... hmmm....
IN:
Dictator: I don't know what to do with this, it's just severely unpopular compared to the mars and emperor options for LBs
From what I see a popular ship with its own synergy strike! Unique!
Excorcist: I never see people take these, but this is likely because it is a weird carrier, better replaced by a mars or emperor.
Cool/good ship. No change needed.
Endeavor Variants: These all have issues.... A lot of them....
lol
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IMHO bluebook chaos needs no changes what so ever! The fleet works great since every ship has its specific role. Yes, the devastation is very good, but i have never used more than 1 or 2 in my fleets.
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Nope. There are some ships which needed changing and there were changes. Some think a few more changes should be made. Devastations, Nighshade, Hemlocks points to name a few. Probably beef up the Ork Kill Kroozas WBs. I wouldn't mind those changes.
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I was talking about CHAOS ships only
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Chaos ships as mentioned:
1. Despoiler needs a weapons layout stat change to fit the model.
2. Devastation undercosted or needs to have the lances range toned down.
3. Return the Repulsive third shield option (which I think is about to be done).
Armada:
1. Retaliator needs an overhaul.
2. Vengeance too cheap at 230.
3. Executor too cheap at 210.
4. Daemonship rules need overhauling.
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Chaos ships as mentioned:
1. Despoiler needs a weapons layout stat change to fit the model.
2. Devastation undercosted or needs to have the lances range toned down.
3. Return the Repulsive third shield option (which I think is about to be done).
1. Make a convertion of your own despoiler so that it fits the profile
2. Don't see any problems with devastation
3. Agree
I would only personally like to see an official option to include heretic from Nemesis for 1 in 1000pts
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1. Make a convertion of your own despoiler so that it fits the profile
2. Don't see any problems with devastation
3. Agree
I would only personally like to see an official option to include heretic from Nemesis for 1 in 1000pts
Hi,
1) Why? The Model is standard build by GW with a HUGE prow launch bay. So the profile should have a LARGE prow launch bay, not some dumb lances.
2) Yes, it outclasses any other carrier.
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1. Make a convertion of your own despoiler so that it fits the profile
2. Don't see any problems with devastation
3. Agree
I would only personally like to see an official option to include heretic from Nemesis for 1 in 1000pts
Hi,
1) Why? The Model is standard build by GW with a HUGE prow launch bay. So the profile should have a LARGE prow launch bay, not some dumb lances.
2) Yes, it outclasses any other carrier.
1) Sometimes creative ppl forget about rules when they make models. I made my one out of Desolator =)
2) C'mon this argument is not that good:
Carnage is the best gunboat - why not fix it also, and Tobship is unstopapbe for 1000pts lets fix it as well, dominator is best long range fire support... It's just normal for some ships to be better than others, but I do agree that it is one of the best all-round ships in game.
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Tyrant/Dominator: for 5pts more you get more weapons batteries and a nova cannon! basically for 15 points the tyrant gets a few wb at a marginally longer range, but fewer of them. I would drop the Tyrants cost.
Tyrant is a decent ship. It works quite well when you are building a fleet around longer range or are using a list without access to the dominator. Dropping it in points would be a mistake because it would compete with the Lunar and Gothic. If anything the Dominator is undercosted for what it brings seeing that every other ship that sports a NC is around 200-225 for a line cruiser.
Dictator: I don't know what to do with this, it's just severely unpopular compared to the mars and emperor options for LBs
Dictator is the option to use when taking a retribution to get 8LB. It's also the only IN cruiser access to AC outside of the defiant. The synergy strike is good as its line presence. If you are building a fleet around the empy (which is the most versatile appearing in every fleet list) you won't have much need of this. It also frees up your CB slots a bit for more gunships rather than ordnance.
Excorcist: I never see people take these, but this is likely because it is a weird carrier, better replaced by a mars or emperor.
The exorcist is based on the vengeance model which doesn't have a whole lot of fans (a good bit of thanks to the horrible photo from GW) It's also a much more costly model than two Mars, two Dictators, or a single empy for less amount of AC. It's a good model since you get a much harder to supress platform with longer range for 10 points more than a dictator so it can work in the same role as the dictator. You really need two to make it work well though or perhaps paired with an oberon. Basically it's a great AC ship in smaller games and if you build your fleet around a ret.
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Hmmm.. Well lets start the flame war.
Desolator: This is the first time i have ever heard someone want to nerf this ship. When it comes to people begging for WYSWYG, remember -staggered fire- people.
Despoiler: Yeah well, I would love to see the LC moved to prow, but it would suffer really bad from a 5 on the critical damage table. What makes it up is the st 8 salvo. I actually find this ship preferable to the emperor because one reload special order loads two kinds of ordnance, which you can use to REALLY bone an opponent.
Devistation: A great carrier, people usually want it better because they don't know how to use it. Those 60cm lances are meant for long range bombardment while staying far away from the conflict. supporting fire anyone?
Styx: Again, i think i am the only SOB who likes this thing as it is, since i keep it sitting happy with my Devistations in the back. A supporting fire carrier group suddenly becomes a lethal long range prospect.
Murder: Hey buddy, i take a murder-hades-murder combo, and i love it. Again, one of the rare SOB's who likes this ship over the Carnage
Carnage: Eh. one trick pony. Useful against eldar, less effective against anything with an armored prow miserable against 6+ armor.
Retaliator: This ship feels like it was meant for 2k games. Bringing two of them with a group of slaughters makes for a super-fast, super-deadly fleet. It's not like they are not well armed, and it has a huge benefits over the devistation... like 2 more hits, 1 more shield.. better AAF... etc. It could use a drop in points though, 275 is a little high. 250 would more more appropriate
Remember: executor only has lances... that's it. It is useless against three fleets in the game.
The Repulsive... seriously, everyone agrees that it gets it's 3rd shield. Don't sweat that.
Chaos fleet: The ONLY thing that should be considered for it are the other major character ships for the other chaos gods.
Demonships really only fit in well for big games.
On to the impy's.
Tyrant: The dominator is unique to the gothic sector. Get used to it.
Dictator: I may be utterly insane, but i think this is the best cruiser-level carrier in the blue book, possibly in the game. Why, you ask? The combo of Torps and launch capacity. One reload special order, like the despoiler, gets two very potent weapon systems ready to fire. Put a pair in a squadron, they become distinctly lethal, more lethal then an emperor IMHO.
Exorcist: Just fine, thanks. I own one, it's part of my Imperial "Fleet of the Green Lake" list, sitting pretty with my oberon.
Honestly I think imperial navy gets TOO MUCH! There is such a huge focus on them compared to every other fleet in the game.
What do i want? what do i REALLY want?
I want people to step back and take a breath. I want them to stop adding things that REALLY are not necessary. I want people to stop thinking their idea is the right idea.
But on a more selfish level, i would like to see an imperial navy or chaos fleet focused on grand cruisers.
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That was a rather non-flamable post. We agree on quite some points. Though I saw no one mentioning a nerf on the lovely Desolator tbh.
The only thing I disagree is the non-changing of the Devastation and the Despoiler (a bit). The Devestation is taken by 99/100 of the fleet lists out there I see on various forums. I am exaggaring but not far from it. The Styx is taken by less then 10% (me me me). Now it is a heavy cruiser thus less is plausible but not to this extend.
The Despoiler is also more often not used then used. Perhaps a little more used then the Styx.
Now the problem the Styx and Despoiler are not taken isn't their own profile/cost but the fact the Devestation is point for point a better choice.
Now, I would swap the ranges on the Devestation or drop the lances to 45cm. Still support but less range then the Styx and Despoiler which now get a better place in the fleet.
Here is my Despoiler idea, which reflects the model layout:
prow launch bay str.4
port launch bay str.2
starboard launch bay str.2
port weapons battery str.10 @ 60cm
starboard weapons battery str.10 @ 60cm
dorsal lance str3 @ 60cm
10 broadside batteries as the ship is build using two battery pieces like the Murder/Carnage. As a battleship it has better range.
Note: the ship has less firepower then the old one (it loses 4 lances or 9 torps compared to 8 batteries (4 in focus).
The ship may elect to swap prow launch bay for str8 torpedoes.
Modelwise perfect and a much better role in the fleet.
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I must be really odd, I use a styx and the hades/murder combo...
That said:
As far as changes to specific ships goes:
IN:
I'd like to see Exorcist LBs buffed, with a moderate price increase. Otherwise the ship's fine.
I'd like to see one of the following made legal: Nemesis Fleet Carrier/Long Serpent/Invincible Fast Battleship
Chaos:
Chaos CLs of some type. There's no logical reason they don't exist.
.... really that's about it.
Tau: Seem fine
Necrons: I think I've already commented on this
Eldar: see above
'nids: has already been dealt with, or so I hear
Dark Eldar: need more ships
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tau merchants need to be made more competitive
option for two shield
option for 4 hooks
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Truth.
Tau Armada is too strong (Hero needs profile adjusted to profile: weaker then Lunar, not eating it for breakfast as per current rules).
There are no Chaos CL because Chaos represent ships from the heresy where no CL existed.
Current IN cruisers could go Renegade and perhaps even Chaos. New rules reflect option to take 1 IN cruiser per 1500pts in a Chaos fleet.
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There's a logical reason why Chaos shouldn't get an LC. It's called a Slaughter.
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There are no Chaos CL because Chaos represent ships from the heresy where no CL existed.
Um... I MAY be wrong, but I remember at least one CL being mentioned in the Horus Heresy novels. Though I don't think any details were given, though. I'll dig through my books and find the reference.
Edit: Come to think of it, i won't need to. The very first word's in the description for the Dauntless in blue book are: "Light scouting cruisers like the Dauntless class have always been a feature of Imperial fleets through out the Imperium." (italics mine)
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Remember that the Imperial fleet technically did not exist until -after- the heresy. Before then it was the Emperor's fleet, commanded by space marines.
Also, I (gasp) agree with admiral, the slaughter really is the CL for chaos, and on the whole, they don't need it. They have more then enough speed and power behind them. Honestly, if you want maneuverability, take some idolaters or infidels. They get a bad rap here, but are truly amazing.
Tau Armada? I feel that it is solid as hell, and beatable. Think of it in these terms: Eldar vs eldar fleets end up in a messy blood bath. Tau vs anyone but eldar ends up in a messy blood bath. I have played against them and won several times. I always felt that the hero's description was written by a human :P I WOULD like to see a restriction on explorers though. (even if it's two per 1500 points)
I am very... wary of changing the despoiler in the manner you described, it's real power (or at least how i use the silly thing) is as a super-dictator.
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Remember that the Imperial fleet technically did not exist until -after- the heresy. Before then it was the Emperor's fleet, commanded by space marines.
Also, I (gasp) agree with admiral, the slaughter really is the CL for chaos, and on the whole, they don't need it. They have more then enough speed and power behind them. Honestly, if you want maneuverability, take some idolaters or infidels. They get a bad rap here, but are truly amazing.
And IN doesn't need the Dauntless when they have the Sword and Firestorm by that logic. And the 'Imperial Fleet' was the 'Imperial Navy' and they were more or less identical to the chaos fleet into M37 when the Murder class was phased out in favor of the Lunar. (the Despoiler being an Imperial design from mid-M36)
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No. IN need the Dauntless if only to balance out the cheap and fast forces of Chaos and yet not have the durability of Chaos ships. It's more for balance in the game rather than actual fluff reasoning. The Slaughter is still the main reason why Chaos should not get LCs.
As for the Despoilers, they were based off an STC discovered around that time. It wasn't an Imperial design per se. What the people who found the STC didn't realize was there was a reason why the Despoiler and Desolator type designs were discontinued and that was because of the susceptibility to Chaos. This proved to be true when the Despoilers turned traitor.
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No. IN need the Dauntless if only to balance out the cheap and fast forces of Chaos and yet not have the durability of Chaos ships. It's more for balance in the game rather than actual fluff reasoning. The Slaughter is still the main reason why Chaos should not get LCs.
As for the Despoilers, they were based off an STC discovered around that time. It wasn't an Imperial design per se. What the people who found the STC didn't realize was there was a reason why the Despoiler and Desolator type designs were discontinued and that was because of the susceptibility to Chaos. This proved to be true when the Despoilers turned traitor.
You know, what's funny is I've never seen Dauntless used for that. Eldar chasing, certainly, but never to counter fast chaos. Most of the time I see NC used for that.
...Desolator ended because the admech lost the technology to replicate them. Attrition saw them off after that.
According to fluff, such as it is, Despoilers were only questionably an STC design, as they were a 'new' battleship class designed as part of the Gareox Prerogative, based off the design of the Terminus Est. Due to internal politics within Battlefleet Tempestus, Battlefleet Bakka, of it's own volition, launched an assault on Battlefleet Gareox. Unprepared for such a thing, they were rather soundly defeated. In order to cover up that two entire sector fleets had abruptly turned on one another for political reasons, the Inquisition placed the entire buisness under seal, declaring that the loosing side were heretics. I think that it's safe to say it wasn't the ships that turned them to chaos.
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Well, I sure as hell have seen them used to outmaneuver chaos. Nothing is more painful then a salvo 18 torps into my murder-hades-murder group... i still shudder at the memory... Or perhaps the strength 5 lance that AAF'd right up to a carrier and gutted it like a fish?
You are getting dangerously close to rabid fan here. Chaos does not NEED light cruisers. Chaos is not GETTING light cruisers. There was only one ship in the book of nemesis that was worth reading about, and it was a space marine battle barge.
Dauntlesses and the Endeavor family are there to make up for a power gap between Chaos and Imperial ships. The Dauntless is the only fast-cruiser the navy has, and the endeavors (will hopefully become) stable weapons platforms to supplement cruisers.
CL's are for one thing, speed and punch while having low health. Chaos's entire fleet plan FOCUSES on speed and punch, hell a standard cruiser can throw a st 14 battery and two lances off a broadside.
So, No. No light cruisers.
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Well, I sure as hell have seen them used to outmaneuver chaos. Nothing is more painful then a salvo 18 torps into my murder-hades-murder group... i still shudder at the memory... Or perhaps the strength 5 lance that AAF'd right up to a carrier and gutted it like a fish?
You are getting dangerously close to rabid fan here. Chaos does not NEED light cruisers. Chaos is not GETTING light cruisers. There was only one ship in the book of nemesis that was worth reading about, and it was a space marine battle barge.
Dauntlesses and the Endeavor family are there to make up for a power gap between Chaos and Imperial ships. The Dauntless is the only fast-cruiser the navy has, and the endeavors (will hopefully become) stable weapons platforms to supplement cruisers.
CL's are for one thing, speed and punch while having low health. Chaos's entire fleet plan FOCUSES on speed and punch, hell a standard cruiser can throw a st 14 battery and two lances off a broadside.
So, No. No light cruisers.
Since I don't know the detail of the str 18 torp hit, I'll ask the simple question on the Daunt hitting the carrier: why on earth did you let it get that close? Carriers stay in the rear with the gear and anything that could possibly catch you should be named the HMS Priority Target.
I'll give you two very good reasons for Chaos lights: eldar and necrons. I'm tired of spending 25 turns chasing across the board after indestructible ship eating monsters.
As far as my fanboy level: I did convert the Schismatic class stats for use with Rogue Trader.
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You're having trouble using Chaos against Eldar and Necron? Chaos with the 45-60 cm WBs on their cruisers? Chaos with 45-60 cm lances? Riiiiiight.
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I'm on the side of no CLs for chaos. The simple fact of it is that they would go unused, and are pointless when compared to the slaughter.
I mean.. what they would be speed 30? slightly cheaper than a slaughter... but have significantly less firepower? They don't serve a function in chaos that chaos doesn't already have.
The old philosophy, before armada, was that chaos got one ship class that the imperium didn't; GC. Although the funny thing is that IN players don't really take these classes (although I think this is primarily due to the money cost of a vengeance.)
It's one of those things where we want every fleet to have access to the same things. The fact is that they don't and if you look at game design they weren't meant to. Now that Chaos can take IN vessels makes this different (compensating for the INs ability to take chaos ships as reserves).
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For raids when chaos is attacker or for low pts games light cruiser could work really well.
Heretic is 130 pts, has 6x30 port and starboard wb and 6x30 prow wb, 30cm speed, 90 degree turn, 1 shield, 6 hp and 1 turret.
Now tell me where this does no fit a chaos style or weather it is better than a slaughterer.
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AFAICT, the argument so far has not been that an LC would be better than a Slaughter, but that for a few points more the Slaughter completely annihilates any LC concept you'd care to mention.
The profile you just mentioned for example. For just 35pts more a Slaughter outguns it so much it's hillarious, and is faster and tougher to boot.
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thus, the LC argument goes out the window. Unless you make a LC design that is effective a at 100 points, your probably not going to get far.
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I'd have to agree that the Slaughter class cruiser is probably going to be superior to most, if not all, light cruisers even if it is a little more expensive. Kit it up with a mark of Khorne and it quickly becomes a terrifying prospect should you try to board the enemy. Sorry, but it would be one hard sell to persuade me away from them.
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For raids when chaos is attacker or for low pts games light cruiser could work really well.
Heretic is 130 pts, has 6x30 port and starboard wb and 6x30 prow wb, 30cm speed, 90 degree turn, 1 shield, 6 hp and 1 turret.
Now tell me where this does no fit a chaos style or weather it is better than a slaughterer.
For 35 more points, I get FP2 more WB, Str 2 lances, 1 more shield, 2 more hp, 2 more turret and a better AAF. The ship stats alone (increased HP, shields and turret) would cover the 35 points. The lances and better AAF put it over the top.
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So if the Slaughterer is so much effective than heretic, then there should be no problem making it official. Those who think different will take it from time to time, those who don't are not affected anyway. Just make it rare - say 0-1 light cruiser and thats it. I think heretic can go 5aaf as well. I am just saying for some instances like small raids it may be useful
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yes, there is a problem. It's a waste of space, and needlessly clutters up the fleet list.
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yes, there is a problem. It's a waste of space, and needlessly clutters up the fleet list.
Your argument is a waste of space ;D 1 ship makes no difference for such purpose. And it can easily be added in the upcomming Power of Chaos PDF instead of one of those battlebarge or carrier variants that Chaos does not need!
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So if the Slaughterer is so much effective than heretic, then there should be no problem making it official. Those who think different will take it from time to time, those who don't are not affected anyway. Just make it rare - say 0-1 light cruiser and thats it. I think heretic can go 5aaf as well. I am just saying for some instances like small raids it may be useful
How small a raid are you talking about? 150 points where you can't include the Slaughter?
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Yeah for instance. But i mean in general for some builds this ship is actually very synergetic with slaughterer if squardroned together
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You know, imperial LCs was designed to compensate relatively slow speed and low maneuverability of an IN line cruisers.
But chaos has 25cm speed in masses, even for some battleships.
So I don't see any reason to give them light cruiser.
Light cruiser with the speed of fastest IN escorts especially.
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Yeah for instance. But i mean in general for some builds this ship is actually very synergetic with slaughterer if squardroned together
And it would be better than 2 Slaughters?
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Yeah for instance. But i mean in general for some builds this ship is actually very synergetic with slaughterer if squardroned together
And it would be better than 2 Slaughters?
Ofcourse not, because slauhterer is more point-cost effective. But it might be usefull if you need those 35 pts somwhere else.
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It's Chaos. Why would it need to shift the 35 points to something else? What would it need? Re-roll? Escort?
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I might need for anything. From the top of my head - to upgrade murder to hades for instance.
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Okay, do I have to make the point that this is NOT 40k where points can be juggled like chainsaws?
I confess that chaos lacks upgrades and flexibility compared to the imperial navy, who have them all over the place, but let me make the point that most other fleets don't have a SINGLE OPTION for upgrades. Necrons? none aside from a sepulchre. Tau? Forgeworld has none and the citidel tau have 'varients'. Orks? nothing you can take is reliable with them on principle. Eldar? none. Space marines? none.
Sometimes, you have to deal with the fact that you don't have the points window, and you have to make do with what you have... that's part of the tactical fun of the game.
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I might need for anything. From the top of my head - to upgrade murder to hades for instance.
Aren't we talking about a small points raid mission? Say 500 points.
You need 2 cruisers and to get a Hades.
Say you take the Heretic. That's Hades+Murder+Heretic=500
How would that be better compared to 3 Slaughters in the same list at 495?
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The point is not about weather it is or is not better but that it is another tactical option.
Murder and Hades are better because i have 6 forward lances and 20 broadside 45 bataries so i have more chances of engaging targets from front and broadside.
But if it is going to be close-quarter fight 3 slaughterers are better. But i don't like the identical ships so I would probably go for something different.
Heretic can synergeticly be included in the Chaos fleet and it is a balanced ship for its points. Thats why i see no problems in it.
More good ships = more options = more tactics = more fun - pure and simple. If one person does not need smth you will always find some one who does need it, even if it is not the best solution!
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And what your not understanding is that they don't need it. Chaos is not only one of the four oldest fleets, but it is also possibly the most solid fleet in the game, fully capable of taking on ANY other fleet and coming out on top. If you want to show such passion for fixing a fleet, Orks need it far more then Chaos ever will.
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Yup. That's another thing. Chaos is really a developed as a faction already. Other factions need more loving such as Orks. Necrons and SM could do with a bit of expansion. Not too overpowering.
As to options, options are fine if there is a perceived problem with a faction. As it is, Chaos has everything covered already. Anything new added should really have serious thought put into it. Yes, even the proposed heavy cruiser and cruiser additions being proposed. The character battleships are fine by me.
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I Considering that GW stated they would release them eventually.. yes the character battleships for chaos SHOULD be done before any crazy heavy cruisers are added.
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I Considering that GW stated they would release them eventually.. yes the character battleships for chaos SHOULD be done before any crazy heavy cruisers are added.
imo this is all chaos need. their cruiser options is plenty good as is.
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Zelkin - I know a handfull of people who use heretic anyway and are happy with it, which means it is needed for them.
Admiral - chaos does not have LC so they do have smth not covered! Imperium has more stuff anyway.
I am just saying that this ship can be made official and there are really no objective reasons why it can't. It's not uber, it does not break balance and comparing to other chaos ships it is overpriced for what it can do. As we constantly see it here - anything can be fluffed! Making it 0-1 solves everything.
I will personally never use any of those themed battlebarges or cruisers that came up in new power of chaos because i see no use for them, but it does not mean i think it's bad that people spent time and effort developing the new things. Some one may use it as a fleet idea.
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Chaos does have an LC. It's called the Slaughter. It's just in disguise as a cruiser. :P By covered, I mean they don't need anything which an LC can provide that their regular cruisers cannot.
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Chaos does have an LC. It's called the Slaughter. It's just in disguise as a cruiser. :P By covered, I mean they don't need anything which an LC can provide that their regular cruisers cannot.
Thats exactly what i call objective reasining ;D In any case I won't suffer if it is or is not official - our gaming community will use it anyway ;D
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You're having trouble using Chaos against Eldar and Necron? Chaos with the 45-60 cm WBs on their cruisers? Chaos with 45-60 cm lances? Riiiiiight.
Bloody right I am against necrons. I chased those Dirges around the table for 45 turns and could never catch them. Guy killed one ico and then ran away. I finally just conceded in frustration.
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That's not a problem with the faction. That's a problem with your opponent.
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The problem is that between my own playing, and what I read on here and warseer, it's not an uncommon necron strategy.
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The problem is that between my own playing, and what I read on here and warseer, it's not an uncommon necron strategy.
Then play some scenarios where it doesn't give him an advantage to just run and run. We do know why they don't to do it that way. Because every ship Necrons lose mean a whole lotta VP. Even then get some escorts run after them and try to box them in. Escorts with lances so that they'll BFI for sure and not be able to AAF next turn.
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The problem is that between my own playing, and what I read on here and warseer, it's not an uncommon necron strategy.
Then play some scenarios where it doesn't give him an advantage to just run and run. We do know why they don't to do it that way. Because every ship Necrons lose mean a whole lotta VP. Even then get some escorts run after them and try to box them in. Escorts with lances so that they'll BFI for sure and not be able to AAF next turn.
Well, two things: 12 dirges and 8 jackels and 3 rerolls is going to outrun even my best lance escorts if he goes AFF, and possibly even if he doesn't go AFF. Against Dirge's in particular, I cannot catch him unless I roll a 5 or 6 on every dice for AFF. Even if he does not AFF himself.
Secondly: If I have to tailor my list specifically against that fleet, AND have him play a scenario that gives me an advantage, to beat him, I would suggest that something is broken.
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If they are going to play the run game, ignore the escorts, aim for the cruisers, kill one and disengage your fleet. ta-da! you win.
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Well, two things: 12 dirges and 8 jackels and 3 rerolls is going to outrun even my best lance escorts if he goes AFF, and possibly even if he doesn't go AFF. Against Dirge's in particular, I cannot catch him unless I roll a 5 or 6 on every dice for AFF. Even if he does not AFF himself.
Secondly: If I have to tailor my list specifically against that fleet, AND have him play a scenario that gives me an advantage, to beat him, I would suggest that something is broken.
Why would you need to tailor? What's your list like? We can help you think up of tactics to handle the dirges and jackals. If not, as Zelnik says, go after the cruisers.
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Well, two things: 12 dirges and 8 jackels and 3 rerolls is going to outrun even my best lance escorts if he goes AFF, and possibly even if he doesn't go AFF. Against Dirge's in particular, I cannot catch him unless I roll a 5 or 6 on every dice for AFF. Even if he does not AFF himself.
Secondly: If I have to tailor my list specifically against that fleet, AND have him play a scenario that gives me an advantage, to beat him, I would suggest that something is broken.
You're kidding right? Necron escorts are rubbish. You're using the speed argument? Hell, I can pop out with my Eldar, annihilate one of your cruisers(!) and then run off the edge of the board, disengaging, all without you getting a shot in. I win.
Compared to this the "Necrons are too fast" argument is pathetic. Besides, he has to be in range of your return fire if he's going to shoot one of your ships. Being in range means he loses about 5 escorts or braces. In which case he can't AAF.
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Well, two things: 12 dirges and 8 jackels and 3 rerolls is going to outrun even my best lance escorts if he goes AFF, and possibly even if he doesn't go AFF. Against Dirge's in particular, I cannot catch him unless I roll a 5 or 6 on every dice for AFF. Even if he does not AFF himself.
Secondly: If I have to tailor my list specifically against that fleet, AND have him play a scenario that gives me an advantage, to beat him, I would suggest that something is broken.
Why would you need to tailor? What's your list like? We can help you think up of tactics to handle the dirges and jackals. If not, as Zelnik says, go after the cruisers.
1k point game, he had all escorts, I had a styx (WM, TB), two devis and six icos. He had 12 dirges and 8 jackals and had bought 3 rerolls. I had actually beat the eldar 'all nightshade' fleet earlier with AC and the sun being in my favor. Anyway, I had moved forward in a flying wedge formation with the styx central to the formation and tried to turn into him with bombers and Aboats. He used the planet to swing around and tag the trailing edge of my left flank, killing the ico. I tried to some around to present my broadsides, since he was now aft of me. I manged to get two hits from the remaining two icos in that squadron, but he'd BFI'd and then moved his regular 50cm.
After that, it was off to the races.
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Still a novice so there may be some gaping hole in the theory, but how about this fleet for our chap facing the rather unsporting necron fleet:
Desolator battleship
1 Acheron Heavy Cruiser
2 Devastation Cruisers
You still have a few points to fill in as you please although perhaps exercise caution upon choosing escorts - they seem to be the soft targets your opponent is capitalising on.
Quite a few long range lances in that fleet with placement to cover a bit of ground. Just a thought but you could also use boarding torpedos from the desolator to function in a similar sense to the dropped Styx's assault boats - no quite as good I know, but still fast and can turn a little bit.
The placement of the lightening arcs on the necron escorts could be used to your advantage. The cruiser group could cover one half of the table witdth, the battleship the rest. Spread out properly you could still bring at least 4 lance shots cover 240cm of width (more than the typical table). Watching fore and aft I leave you to figure out - ordnance perhaps?
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Okay, with the fleet provided, i can tell you right-now that your loss either was due to terrible rolls, or a lack of skill. A-boats should have gutted his escort ranks by at least 8 a turn(on the conservative side), and the lace fire from your styx and devs should have added at least two more kills each. Iconoclasts should have been used to force braces or (if your lucky) pop an escort as well.
At most, he could have punked a cruiser or your escort squadron with the AAF cheese in the first round, then suffered A-boat hell the moment you showed up.
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Okay, with the fleet provided, i can tell you right-now that your loss either was due to terrible rolls, or a lack of skill. A-boats should have gutted his escort ranks by at least 8 a turn(on the conservative side), and the lace fire from your styx and devs should have added at least two more kills each. Iconoclasts should have been used to force braces or (if your lucky) pop an escort as well.
At most, he could have punked a cruiser or your escort squadron with the AAF cheese in the first round, then suffered A-boat hell the moment you showed up.
Not that I disagree that it wouldn't have been fairly easy to retaliate, particularly with ordnance, I don't see where you're getting 8 kills a turn from A-boats. Sure, if he doesn't brace, I can see that, 9 or 10 even. Otherwise 1 or 2.
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No prob, let me explain.
He has two devs and a styx. Total LC, 14.
Against those odds, the necron player has a choice: Brace and lose firepower and the ability to GTFO, or sit and take terrible losses. Either way it's not a good deal, since all of the ships ALSO have batteries, and the iconoclasts can wreak some pretty severe mayhem on braced ships with the st 18 batteries at their disposal.
I may be a little liberal with my numbers.
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Eh, my numbers give a total of roughly 3-4 escorts per turn, including Iconoclasts, AC and long range lance fire.
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If you lived closer to chicago, we could test this in person, but lets stay on topic
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Eh, my numbers give a total of roughly 3-4 escorts per turn, including Iconoclasts, AC and long range lance fire.
Ok, here's the problem with all that: you're assuming that the ac were still near my fleet, and not 40-60cm beyond it. When I moved in my ord phase, I sent the ac right at him, he then AFFed (4,5,6, for 110, 100, and 90cm move, respectively) around the planet (damn you inertialess drive) to attack my left flank. This left my AC listening to the crickets 70+ cm away
- < -AC
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- (Planet) everything else
- Icos
- - Necrons
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Then recall and launch again.
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Correct.
I think this thread needs a new title
"Where the community lets loose their inner feeling".
lol
People should learn to fire weapon batteries first against Necrons. That darned old tactica misguided too many admirals out there.
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Horizon, very true, and your PM box is full :)
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Then recall and launch again.
Zelnik, maybe I'm dense, but I just looked through both my blue book and the 07 FAQ and can't find the ability to recall them.
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It's not called "recall" per se, but it is on page 27 of the BBB under the grey box labeled Fleet Ordnance Limits.
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Indeed, WBs are more efficient against un-braced Necrons, particularly when on LO. So fire them first and save your lances for later. If he braces then fire your lances at another ship, forcing that ship to brace or give easy hits. If he doesn't brace then just follow up with your lances and he'll likely brace anyway. Either way, you should be firing your WBs against un-braced Necron ships. They're more efficient that way. Only fire at a braced ship if it's near crippled or destroyed thresholds.
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It's not called "recall" per se, but it is on page 27 of the BBB under the grey box labeled Fleet Ordnance Limits.
LOL other then that rule isn't in my copy of BBB, I see what you're saying, but it still probably wouldn't have helped. I hadn't reloaded ord yet, so I'd have had to reload and relaunch, which only would have given me one ord phase to get them to his ships before he AAFed.
*grumble* still not used to the new rules and now there will be 'new' new rules... *grumble*
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When you recall strike craft, you regain the launch capacity equal to the recalled amount.
also, consider this. Odds are, after the 2010 faq, there may not be another FAQ released for a VERY long time. This is in contrast to 40k, which has a new fanboy marine codex out every year and a half.
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Yeah, I think this is the best aspect of being a SG neglected by GW: less rule updates, less codex, less money making daft rule ideas by them.
I mean 2nd ed 40k to 3rd ed meant my 1500pts army was only worth 750pts. blech, at that point interest in 40k faded and I sold all except a few nice models.
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When you recall strike craft, you regain the launch capacity equal to the recalled amount.
also, consider this. Odds are, after the 2010 faq, there may not be another FAQ released for a VERY long time. This is in contrast to 40k, which has a new fanboy marine codex out every year and a half.
Well, we can always hope that GW gets it's head out of it's backside...