Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Mazila on November 25, 2010, 09:22:21 PM
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Guys I somehow got a fealing you are completely ignoring any references to this BoN or any ideas from it. Any reasons why? This thing has some very good ideas, ships and concepts.
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Because it has Chaos Light Cruisers many people dismiss it without looking any further.
I appreciate the book.
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1 cruiser for 1500 points, c'mon this is not a reason to dump the whole thing.
Anyway, whats wrong with chaos light cruisers? I mean chaos made a PK, surely they can make a small amount of light cruisers to counter imperium. As for me it's far less nonsence than a dark eldar BB!
What about inquisitor fleets, other variants etc?
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I like Chaos light cruisers. I've never understood the bias against them.
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The only thing out of that book that i felt was worth while was the Diabolis Extremis. So much so that i built one and had the prow customized to match my grey knight strike cruisers.
Everything else in there is painful to look at.
Bias against Chaos CL? because of all the fleets in the game, of all the myriad lists..chaos needs them the least.
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The only thing out of that book that i felt was worth while was the Diabolis Extremis. So much so that i built one and had the prow customized to match my grey knight strike cruisers.
Everything else in there is painful to look at.
Bias against Chaos CL? because of all the fleets in the game, of all the myriad lists..chaos needs them the least.
Are you joking? The fast chaos battleship is awesome.
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Eeehh I will be more convinced when i see an actual mini converted for it. It's rules are amusing, if complicated, but i would probably not take it.
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What about inquisitor fleets, other variants etc?
It's like an early christmas to me when I discovered the other day that this is just what is happening.
Go fetch! https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bw_dULEfC3rbYzUyNjQzZTAtMDZiMS00ZjRlLWJjNzMtYTE5YmNjZjdjODQ1 (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bw_dULEfC3rbYzUyNjQzZTAtMDZiMS00ZjRlLWJjNzMtYTE5YmNjZjdjODQ1)
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It is not, this draft has nothing to do with a fleet in BoN
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I don't recall claiming the draft to be a part BoN, apologies if interpreted as a thread-jack, going back to topic; BoN is not much to discuss as it is entirely unofficial, true it contains some goodies but as it is all unofficial it's the opponents consent that is the only hindrance of using anything in it. This is probably why it is seldom referred to in public forums.
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The good thing about BFG, being a 'dead' game is that the playing communities are relatively small, and usually 'the opponent's consent' is not hard to get, especially in case of internally consistent rules-sets such as BoN.
It all comes down to: "does this make sense for us to use?" and not if it's official or not. Official or not official in this case is a poor-man's-argument. In case of a game the main argument should always be- are we having fun using this?
May I remind you that BoN was in fact published on the old specialist-games website, along with official GW rules. This is probably more then the rules developed under HA will get, if GW will maintain it's current policy towards SG.
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So, Yegr, you think the GW will not upload any of the drafts and faq?
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So, Yegr, you think the GW will not upload any of the drafts and faq?
That's a good question anymore.
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So, Yegr, you think the GW will not upload any of the drafts and faq?
I think you are straying away from the topic of this discussion. Let's keep it on topic - shall we :)
Whatever I think, it won't have influence on the publishing (or lack thereof) of the current and future FAQs and such by GW. Furthermore since I don't need an "official" stamp to use something that makes sense to me (same goes for my nearest gaming community), such publication wouldn't matter. Lastly my answer to this question, was immanently contained in both my previous post, and your question.
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Chaos doesnt at all need a light cruiser, yes. Thats why there is no problem if people want to include one in their fleet, for flavor, per 1500 points.
The arguments against are quite silly :)
Thats actually my favorite part of the book. My lil' Heretic class is so cute. ^^
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Chaos doesnt at all need a light cruiser, yes. Thats why there is no problem if people want to include one in their fleet, for flavor, per 1500 points.
The arguments against are quite silly :)
Thats actually my favorite part of the book. My lil' Heretic class is so cute. ^^
Ironically, by a lot of the logic used for reasons against, necrons don't need a light cruiser either, but they have one.
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As mentioned per new rules (FAQ? or Draft...? forgot) Chaos can take 1 Imperial Navy ship per 1000pts. Thus a light cruiser available to Chaos. :)
Also fluffwise anyone could take any Imperial Navy fleet and call it renegade. Take a Bastion list with reserve Chaos vessels etc and you have a nice fluffy renegade fleet with IN/Chaos mix.
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Ironically, by a lot of the logic used for reasons against, necrons don't need a light cruiser either, but they have one.
Necrons don't have a Slaughter.
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Ironically, by a lot of the logic used for reasons against, necrons don't need a light cruiser either, but they have one.
Necrons don't have a Slaughter.
Why take a slaughter when you have the Scythe? I'd rather they just had the slaughter at that point...
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Ironically, by a lot of the logic used for reasons against, necrons don't need a light cruiser either, but they have one.
Necrons don't have a Slaughter.
Why take a slaughter when you have the Scythe? I'd rather they just had the slaughter at that point...
Because the Scythe is the only default regular-sized cruiser they have, unlike the Slaughter which has a multitude of choices. It's also 110 points more expensive than the Slaughter. And lastly, even if it was that expensive, people still tend to take the Scythe and it's durability over the Shroud because the Shroud would now be a target for your opponents since if they take it down it means a whole lotta VP for them with its cost of 155 points and it is much easier to take out also. It's more a liability when taken in a Necron list than a Chaos LC would be in a Chaos list.
If a Slaughter-like vessel would ever come up in a Necron fleet, then for sure people would take it instead of the Shroud. It's not a question then of Slaughter over Scythe but rather Slaughter over Shroud.
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As mentioned per new rules (FAQ? or Draft...? forgot) Chaos can take 1 Imperial Navy ship per 1000pts. Thus a light cruiser available to Chaos. :)
All the more reason not to get hung up on chaos light cruisers :)
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I personally believe that Chaos would neither want or use light cruisers. As a Chaos captain that has to go against the might of the Imperium as well as maintain your position against rivals and subordinates you'd be inclined towards trying to maximise your power. Therefore you'd want to captain larger more powerful ships.
Escorts would be acquired by powerful individuals and awarded to subordinates. This would increase their ties of loyalty through the act of being rewarded and also through the necessity of having to serve a higher power to survive (an escort isn't going to do much alone) as well as the fact that other escort captains will be quick to turn on any dissenter in order to curry favour. So this would produce a relatively stable environment that sees a purpose for escorts and cruisers.
Since Chaos is an aggressive raiding fleet then there isn't much call for an anti-raid ship like a light cruiser. Since Chaos ships are quite fast, have good range and tend to act like a wolf pack (as opposed to the INs flock of sheep approach :P) then there isn't much need for a shepherd to tend to exposed areas. So there's no fleet or patrol need for a CL as far as Chaos is concerned. There is definitely no desire to captain one. The only call for one at the moment is "with a CL I'd be able to purchase fleet X at points Y", which is just not an argument for their inclusion.
Note: A Slaughter on CTNH has more focusable firepower than a Dauntless (same total) all the while being faster. Nuff said.
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I personally believe that Chaos would neither want or use light cruisers. As a Chaos captain that has to go against the might of the Imperium as well as maintain your position against rivals and subordinates you'd be inclined towards trying to maximise your power. Therefore you'd want to captain larger more powerful ships.
Escorts would be acquired by powerful individuals and awarded to subordinates. This would increase their ties of loyalty through the act of being rewarded and also through the necessity of having to serve a higher power to survive (an escort isn't going to do much alone) as well as the fact that other escort captains will be quick to turn on any dissenter in order to curry favour. So this would produce a relatively stable environment that sees a purpose for escorts and cruisers.
Since Chaos is an aggressive raiding fleet then there isn't much call for an anti-raid ship like a light cruiser. Since Chaos ships are quite fast, have good range and tend to act like a wolf pack (as opposed to the INs flock of sheep approach :P) then there isn't much need for a shepherd to tend to exposed areas. So there's no fleet or patrol need for a CL as far as Chaos is concerned. There is definitely no desire to captain one. The only call for one at the moment is "with a CL I'd be able to purchase fleet X at points Y", which is just not an argument for their inclusion.
Note: A Slaughter on CTNH has more focusable firepower than a Dauntless (same total) all the while being faster. Nuff said.
See, I disagree with that idea. Chaos =/= Khorne. A Nightlords or Alpha Legion commander might look favorably on a faster, more maneuverable craft able to strike suddenly at a vulnerable point. Not that they wouldn't pack it with as much firepower as they could, mind you. A LC has the advantage that anything it doesn't out gun, it can out run. Further, it requires less in the way of lines of supply to maintain for a protracted period.
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Well if Alpha Legion want a faster and more maneuverable craft that can outrun anything it can't outgun and requires less in the way of resources and would be more innoucous than norm then escorts are the way to go.
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Well if Alpha Legion want a faster and more maneuverable craft that can outrun anything it can't outgun and requires less in the way of resources and would be more innoucous than norm then escorts are the way to go.
Except if they're chased by other escorts. Which may both outgun and outrun them.
The problem with the escort solution is: A) Escorts are made of tin foil. If you're going to have a protracted career as a terror of the space ways, it's not the way to go, since things can always go wrong. B) Almost all the current Escorts that are in the Chaos fleet list, with the possible exception of the ico, seem to be newer types of escort. Reading through the HH books, there does appear to be a few ship classes from that era that serve similar functions to the dauntless.
Further, if the new rules are going to allow chaos to take IN LCs anyway, why not have their own LCs?
(Flight of the Eisenstein was hair pullingly vague in a lot of ways)
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Except if they're chased by other escorts. Which may both outgun and outrun them.
The problem with the escort solution is: A) Escorts are made of tin foil. If you're going to have a protracted career as a terror of the space ways, it's not the way to go, since things can always go wrong. B) Almost all the current Escorts that are in the Chaos fleet list, with the possible exception of the ico, seem to be newer types of escort. Reading through the HH books, there does appear to be a few ship classes from that era that serve similar functions to the dauntless.
Further, if the new rules are going to allow chaos to take IN LCs anyway, why not have their own LCs?
Errr if they are chased by normal escorts, the Alpha Legion should be able to take them on. If they're chased by SM escorts, then they would be toe to toe. Eldar escorts would have an advantage but then again, they have advantage in almost everything that taking the LC won't matter much. Necrons prolly similar. So really, I still see no need.
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Also consider the Hecate. This ship had really nice fluff and it's quite believable as a Dev refit. Yet the HA are considering it too big a project for Chaos to "create" a CB of their own by simply converting a Dev. So you'd be pushing shit uphill to try to establish a case for Chaos building a CL from the ground up. There's no real reason for them to make one. Those Chaos Warmasters that might be inclined to take a CL for whatever reason would likely be unable to create one and the limited dockyards available to Chaos would be tasked to more important day to day activities or projects.
The rule allowing IN cruisers being taken gives Chaos access to CLs. This is more than enough.
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The rule allowing IN cruisers being taken gives Chaos access to CLs. This is more than enough.
Not really - you can take 1 IN cruiser per 1000 points of ships, that means that it will be taken for games of 1500. So what imperial ship without NC would any one take? I think - none! Chaos cruisers are all better than IN ships without nova and you don't need CL for formats more than 1000 so this rule does not really give anything.
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It is a fluffy rule.
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Not really - you can take 1 IN cruiser per 1000 points of ships, that means that it will be taken for games of 1500. So what imperial ship without NC would any one take? I think - none! Chaos cruisers are all better than IN ships without nova and you don't need CL for formats more than 1000 so this rule does not really give anything.
I confess I have not read the rule. Does it say 1 per full 1000 pts or 1 per 1000 pts or part thereof? If the latter then you could take one in a 500 or 750 pt fleet. Either way, you can still take one in a 1000 pt fleet. Also, since your point is that CLs are preferred at low point games and less valuable at high point games then why bring up a 1500 pt fleet? According to your logic they're no good at that size anyway.
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The rule:
Using Renegade Imperial Vessels: In the ten millennia since the Horus Heresy, countless warship crews have mutinied against their officers or colluded with them to renounce their vows to the Imperium and turn renegade, especially during the Gothic War and the 13th Black Crusade. While some classes have proven more prone to this taint than others, almost no ship class has proven entirely immune to the allure of Chaos or the promise of easy wealth, power and riches by using the awesome might of an Imperial warship to scour the merchant lanes for profit or carve out a niche or fiefdom from some poorly-defended backwater. For every 1500 points in a Chaos fleet, it may contain up to one cruiser from any Imperial Navy fleet list up to 185 points. No special refits or rules may be taken for Imperial Navy vessels used in this manner. Additionally, it may include up to four Imperial Navy escorts. These need not be in a single squadron and may be interspersed within other Chaos escort squadrons if desired. While they should ideally be painted to represent their status, they may only recently have turned renegade and need not necessarily be painted to match the Chaos fleet!
Hmmm, Cobra's in a Chaos fleet... to replace Infidels. Swords.... hmmm.... 8)
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Oh I see, it's only 1500 pts. I was going by your earlier 1000 pts entry. However, it isn't limited to 185 pts or less. Any non-NC cruiser. So Armageddon, Overlord, Exorcist, Avenger, Dictator, Tyrant, Lunar, Gothic, Defiant, Endurance, Endeavour and Dauntless.
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Maxed at 185pts. I always said 1500 iirc. :)
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Maxed at 185pts. I always said 1500 iirc. :)
Um, I just checked the the latest draft. It says nothing about a 185 pt max, though it specifically mentions non-NC ships. And you did say 1000 pts at first.
As mentioned per new rules (FAQ? or Draft...? forgot) Chaos can take 1 Imperial Navy ship per 1000pts. Thus a light cruiser available to Chaos. :)
See.
Edit: Oh, and you can include up to 6 escorts, not 4.
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lol,
I copied that rule from the latest online version...Powers of Chaos,
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lol,
I copied that rule from the latest online version...Powers of Chaos,
I quoted the lastest online version ... 2010 FAQ. Obviously some form of update is needed ot one or the other.
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Truth. I'll pm Nate.
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Sometimes I feel a little sorry, when I read the comments about BoN. I spent nearly evere free time during 9 month of 2007 writing, editing, formatting etc. this book (at least 80% of BoN is my work). :'(
We've written fluff of entire sector, 2 fleet lists, a lot of scenarios, a lot of lacking of elements of the game (like appeal charts and refits) and a few other things and... nobody cares. Because there are Chaos light cruisers! And nobody cares that they are not intended to be used in standard Chaos Incursion list (as even noted in the rule). Hardly anyone reads the Warhost Nemesis fleet list, where ChLC find they place. Also nobody cares that "Ships of Nemesis Sector" chapter mostly about light cruisers (2 Chaos, 2 Chaos/Imperial, Dark Eldar, Necron, Tau, Eldar ones...).
BTW. I know that there is a common "I've got little..." upsss.... "Chaos has Slaugher" complex, but IHMO the argument that Chaos do not need ChLCs because they got Slaughter is like saying i.e. Imperial do not need Overlord, because they got Retribution... I never do not understand the cult of this cheap ship with very limited tactical usage.
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Don't be sorry ;)
It's just that if ppl don't like something (their gut tells them to), they try to find a "reasonable" justification for their opinion. This usually has very little to do with a all-round-evaluation, and usually just works on a basis of finding some elements which can be exemplified as negative, then deriving a general negative assessment from examples. The context is usually skipped and then forgotten. Just as in this case.
This just points to a very imperfect method of evaluation, but not to the value of BoN.
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Well, *I* liked it. The idea that chaos just throws out all the light cruisers they ever get seems a bit silly to me. I mean, they did leave with half the imperial fleet. Someone had to have gotten short straw and got the light cruiser.
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Well, I liked it as well.
But, MKG, I know the burden of throwing out a supplement and then getting only sparse amount of comments. Then again most supplements are made because I like making them.
Soon: Distant Sun. :)
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Well, v1 of BoN was downloaded as soon it came available, as is v2. Not happy with some ships, very happy with others. Good work.
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Probably there will be not BoN vol.2.
But the next project on the Cypra's horizon could be "The Book of Incunabilis"...
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I really like the light cruisers. I made a Heretic! I'll post a pic of it to prive I bastardised a cruiser to make one :)
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I really like the light cruisers. I made a Heretic! I'll post a pic of it to prive I bastardised a cruiser to make one :)
I made a Schismatic class. It was fun.
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MKG - I enjoyed the BoN
Good effort
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Haters Hate. Bottom line. Every writer gets bad reviews... frak 'em.
Two of my favorite ships for house games come from BoN. Amazing Job - never knew where to find you to thank you for writing it, I've even incorporated your refits/appeals into my group's campaigns. way to go man.
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I'm curious, how did you guys get permission to use GW's art?
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They asked Andy Hall if it was okay.