Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Rules Questions => Topic started by: Plaxor on November 28, 2010, 03:46:15 AM
-
This is a bit of evidence for how the community feels about the Kill-Kroozer. Just a research method. Note this is as per current HA ideas, including the 20 point +2 turret upgrade.
Anyways, current philosophies as garnered from the other thread (at least as far as the entirety of orks):
Increase ork firepower:
Admiral_d_Artagnan, Lastspartacus, Zelnik
Modification of Ork leadership:
Zelnik, Fracas
Heavy Guns Shift Change:
Masque
Reduction in cost:
Sigoroth, Plaxor (me)
Up turrets:
Fracas
Other (listed):
GrogDaTyrant (Tougher, Longer range), Lastspartacus (Remove randomness), Horizon (Shield Mod, Torps Standard), Lastspartacus (Turret Rules change/Upped)
Note that I don't agree necessarily agree with any of these. As well that I would think that the HAs would avoid anything weird/clunky.
Close to the end of faq 2010.
-
All my previous evidence summarized/edited for current HA theories:
In all honesty it feels like Ork cruisers should cost about 10 pts less than they currently do. With the Smotherman formula this equates out a Kill Kroozer to be 145 points, and terrors costing 175.
Mathematically 6 bombers attacking an ork cruiser results:
6.875 hits Ouch, especially when compared to an imperial or chaos cruiser, which only 2.5 hits are caused. At three they would suffer 1.125
Escort math:
Note: This doesn't account for the Brutes ramming capacity, which is indeed another factor, but for this it is ignored.
The Onslaught:
Ability to engage enemy/Maneuverability: Brute>Onslaught by 79.2%
Firepower: Onslaught>Brute by 25%
Hits/Shields: Brute>Onslaught by 40%
Average: Brute>Onslaught by 19%
Possible solution here:
Increasing the Onslaughts FP to D6+1 would make Brute>Onslaught by only 4%
Further Reducing costs: At 30 Brute>Onslaught by 5.8%
Vs a sword
1 bomber has a 33.6% chance of killing an onlslaught, 2 would have 58.3% chance. Compared to the sword 1 would have a 10.5% chance, 2 would have a 26.8% chance.
1 torp from the front will kill an ork 8.8%% of the time, whereas from the side 25%, a sword would die from the front/sides 8.325% of the time.
1 ac=25% chance of killing onslaught, 2 have 56.25% with the sword; 12.5%, and 37.5% respectively.
Strangely an Onslaught is 50% as survivable against ordinance as a sword.
Hits/Survivability (Incorporating ordinance, and general playstyle): Sword>Onslaught by 44%
Firepower: Sword>Onslaught by 14%
Maneuverability/Area of Aquisition/Speed: Sword>Onslaught by 125%
Overall: Sword>Onslaught by 61%
Increasing firepower of onslaught by 1: Sword>Onslaught by 52.6%
Ships in fleets:
TS: 92% of fleets (78% had at least 2)
KK: 64% (23% had at least 2)
Slamblasta: 5%
Kroolboy: 0%
Gorbags revenge: 7%
Deathdeala: 31%
Hammer: 35%
Ramship: 54%
Onslaught: 7%
Ravager: 62%
Savage: 34%
Roks: 24%
warlord upgrades,
Powerfields: 42%
Mad Meks: 0%
Looted Torpedos; 28%
Maniak gunners: 0%
Mega-armor: 14%
-
What normally frustrates me the most is that what normally is considered 'orky' in any ork army, fails to show itself here. yes orks are decent in boarding, but ramming? lets face it, they are pretty poor at due to their abominable LD.
I think a LOT of their problems will be solved by the following:
Hammer Battlekrooza's bombardment cannon increased to 8
Heavy Gunz modified by range column shift
+1 (or even +2 if your feeling liberal) to ram an enemy vessel (krooza's and battleships only)
-
i think orky leadership is fine as is
-
I disagree with giving Orks a leadership modifier for ramming. Ramming is a complex manoeuvre and as such it is not within the Orks realm of particular talents. I'm certain that they'd like to ram, but their desires and skills are at odds in this case.
Anyway, they already get to automatically pass the AAF test, which significantly increases their chances. Other races have to make 2 leadership tests, Orks only need the one. This reflects both their enthusiasm and their incompetence.
-
The old FAQ gave ships the option to take a large base due to traktor field generators for no cost.
What about having the generators for a bonus on the LD check to ram, for say +5 points ? That way it improves the ability to ram, what would be the main purpose of such generators.
-
An IN ship with an average leadership of 7.5 will pass 58% of command checks, or 34% of the double checks required for ramming.
An Ork ship with an average leadership of 6.5 will pass 42% of command checks, and ram successfully 42% of the time, succeeding 25% more often. That's what I call better at ramming.
-
I have a question regarding the ork warlord rerolls. It just says rerolls, and doesnt specify. Can those rerolls be used by the whole fleet?
I can see a bonus to ramming being a warlord upgrade, tractor fields, as said.
-
Keep the points. Increase the firepower. Simple. I mean really, a 5-10 point decrease would put the ship close to Strike Cruiser pointage. I don't really think that it would solve anything anyway and would become a crutch in future designs for Orks.
What do I mean by crutch? The cheap KK would now be the basis for any future Krooza designs making it hard to present the designs because people will always be comparing it to the KK.
The variable D6 weapon batteries should be around D3+3. I mean with D6. one would only be getting an average of FP3-4 WBs. If one is unlucky, one even can get a 1! The D6+2's should go up to D6+4. I don't think it would present a problem too much unless the KK can get within 15 cm.
-
Do away with that stupid mechanic anyway. Yuck :)
-
The variable D6 weapon batteries should be around D3+3. I mean with D6. one would only be getting an average of FP3-4 WBs. If one is unlucky, one even can get a 1! The D6+2's should go up to D6+4. I don't think it would present a problem too much unless the KK can get within 15 cm.
Yeah... Really the randomness of orks should as least be able to hit IN and Chaos standards. Right now the max a KK can get is 8? 2 less than any IN/Chaos cruiser with primarily WB. And the average is 5.5? about half of those similar cruisers.
HAs have decided that Orks shouldn't really have any future capital ship designs, as the two cover the two main ideologies of ork ship building.
-
Reset the voting after adding more options.
-
Perhaps the Orks should get extra repair dice, or be unaffected by BMs for repair, to reflect their ability to get their own "tech" to work (when no one else could) but then also be more susceptible to breakdowns. Say, each cap ship takes a single port/strbrd/prow weapon crit on a 5+ at start of turn. Then beef up their cap-ship guns a bit. So when they get to shoot at you you get a hammering, but maybe they can't shoot that turn. 1-2, port, 3-4, strbrd, 5-6 prow. Has to be repaired as normal.
-
Perhaps the Orks should get extra repair dice, or be unaffected by BMs for repair, to reflect their ability to get their own "tech" to work (when no one else could) but then also be more susceptible to breakdowns. Say, each cap ship takes a single port/strbrd/prow weapon crit on a 5+ at start of turn. Then beef up their cap-ship guns a bit. So when they get to shoot at you you get a hammering, but maybe they can't shoot that turn. 1-2, port, 3-4, strbrd, 5-6 prow. Has to be repaired as normal.
It's another weird mechanic. Besides orks already are slightly better at repairing criticals with more hits, and they kind of have a way to represent that their weapons might not always work with the random dice. If this is rolled at the beginning of the turn it would be different than when the ship wants to fire, making the ork player able to decide to maneuver differently to compensate etc.
-
It's another weird mechanic. Besides orks already are slightly better at repairing criticals with more hits, and they kind of have a way to represent that their weapons might not always work with the random dice.
The Orks typically have more hits but only repair at the same rate as any other ship with the same hits. The Ork BBs repair no better than an IN BB for example. Anyway, since people find random fire too clunky and a right column shift to be too pointless (may as well do without it and give them less firepower since this is what it amounts to) then the extra repair/extra crit capability/susceptibility is a way of encapsulating Orky character and potential while maintaining a semblance of balance. I say semblance because I don't know just what levels of firepower increase we're talking about nor how good the crit/repair mechanism would be at balancing this.
If this is rolled at the beginning of the turn it would be different than when the ship wants to fire, making the ork player able to decide to maneuver differently to compensate etc.
So are you suggesting that, if it were taken on board, it should be rolled at the beginning of the shooting phase after the Ork player has manoeuvred?
-
I don't think that random firepower is bad. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it's great. I really don't understand the dislike of it. Simple method of representing ork randomness. Ultimately it amounts to about a certain firepower, especially on the onslaughts, who in squadrons of 3 will 70% of the time roll between an 8 and 13 firepower. Then again a cruiser will 70% of the time roll between a 5 and 8 for it's frontal firepower.
Randomness just makes things less predictable, which gives the orks flavor. Some other system would ultimately amount to something similar.
I'm not a fan of new systems, and would prefer an Occam's razor approach, where we would make the fewest changes possible to revise a ship/the fleet in whole, and make as least radical changes as possible. Avoiding big things such as removing and changing completely their racial special rules.
Depending on how well we do here, with a multitude of information harvesting, we could possibly revise minor details in every fleets ships (which is a large demand in the community, and the HAs won't touch it). It has been a desire of mine to do for some time, at least with my local game group, but it isn't something that you can do alone, as everyone has their opinion, and it's always biased. With a group of people to discuss things, and vote on potential solutions/what needs fixing, after a certain set of arguments are placed, then likely you can get the best representation of where things should be. Saving any bias from the equation.
More people always provide more insight and perspective, and especially here, you can find season veterans of the discussion, like yourself Sig, as well as Artagnan, Horizon, and Xisor (what happened to him?).
-
Eff that, I'm going at Orks MMS style, its that drastically necessary :)
(see post in exp rules)
-
Also, another thing of random note. We seem to be making new rules, like the tau pdf, in accordance to how the models looks.
What gives with the ork kroozers? I got some now, and by golly, they are closer to the size of light cruisers than regular cruisers.
How are they grand cruiser hits? 0.o It would be more accurate I think to simply get some Imperial cruisers and slap on a ton of armor plates and bits.
-
Hmmm... I don't think they are closer to CL size. And the despoiler being changed is a very obvious wysiwig that wouldn't significantly change the stats of the ship (moving LBs to the prow from the sides in the end won't matter much, as they aren't directional)
-
Quite a few people either kitbash or scratchbuild their Orks because of the somewhat lame look and size of the official models.
Anyway, as for the increased hits, this is supposed to be due to their extra goodiness at boarding and repairing their tech as well as one shot shields.
-
They could always be Ork 'lite kroozas' ^^
I got some imperial ships on the way. I'm sure the poor bastards dont realize they are about to be used for a much krooler purpose.
-
Rather than random firepower why not up the WB's and have random column shifts - 1,2 - left, 3,4 - none, 5,6 - right with the normal shifts for range. It would better represent the Orks firing wildly in all directions, but occasionally getting it right.
I always find KK's just die horribly. They try an alpha strike, roll low, have too few broadside guns to do damage on the way past then spend the rest of the battle trying to turn around with the enemy sitting on my tail. I hardly play them these days as I don't see the Orks as a carrier fleet - and they have to be to be competitive.
-
Check out my WIP ork rules in the experemental rules subforum, and see how you like the idea. :)
-
to be honest - a permanent right column shift is a bit self defeating. You may as well give them less guns and use the standard chart.
Maybe the ships should use the old powerfields from epic - give the ships D3+3 to start with, but they are only repaired on a 5+, or on a standard repair roll.
just throwing ideas into the pot.
-
Its actually a bit different. Firstly, orks still end up with more firepower than the random version.
Secondly, it gives them more shots against ordnance and abeam escorts. It evens out to a bit less firepower, just like eldar are represented by taking their firepower and left shifting/always closing instead of just upping their total firepower, to show they are crack shots.
-
The difference between lesser guns or right shift is quite close to 0.
Same to left shift or more guns.
-
But its not 0. You get different results. Just saying.