Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Experimental Rules Feedback => Topic started by: Zelnik on December 05, 2010, 01:03:43 PM
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Here are the current list of changes going into the new PDF.
The large upgrade list will be removed entirely in favor of three ship specific upgrades (to be listed below): I am still listening to input but the vast majority of people like this idea.
The Jupiter's Torpedo compliment will be increased to st 8: Finalized
The fluff for the fleet will be expanded to give players a better idea of what life is like in the Diasporex: I REALLY want more input on how this could be made better.
Campaign rules for the Diasporex will be clarified (they will be established as a Pirate faction, since they do not have the resources or desire to occupy worlds. A special mission will be added which will allow them to occupy a very small number of worlds in rare circumstances)
Here is the MOST UPDATED upgrade list THUS FAR. This list is SUBJECT TO CHANGE! Any upgrade In bold is OPEN FOR DEBATE! those that are not will remain as they are, though points costs for said upgrades are negotiable.
Callisto:
Vectored Engine Coils: The Callisto may make an immediate 45 degree turn at the start of movement when on Come to New Heading special orders. This turn is "free" and does not count for the "up to two" as listed in the rules. 10 points.
Emergency Maneuvering Thrusters: When under fire, the Callisto may attempt a Leadership test. If passed, the vessel makes a 45 degree turn AWAY from the direction of fire. If this is done, the vessel may not use special orders for the next round aside from Brace for Impact. This may be done ONCE per enemy shooting phase. 10 pts.
AI Assisted Targeting: If the dorsal lance causes a point of damage on an enemy capitol ship, it causes a critical damage on the roll of a 5+ instead of 6+. 10pts.
Ganymede
Redundant power systems: Port starboard, prow and dorsal weapons repair critical damage on a 5+ instead of a 6+. 15 pts.
Backup Power Cells: When on Come to New Heading, Burn Retros, or All Ahead Full, weapon systems are only reduced in strength by 25%. 15pts.
Reinforced Reactor Core: Damage suffered from Engine Room Hit or Thrusters Damaged (Critical roll 6 and 8 respectfully) is savable on a 4+, the effects are still present and must be repaired as normal.
Europa
Combat Refit: Increase dorsal lance strength to 2, reduce launch capacity by 1 from port and starboard armament (free)
Emission Shields: this vessel ignores leadership, movement and boarding modifiers from blast markers. 20pts
Reinforced Superstructure: this vessel only suffers the effects of being crippled when reduced to 2 hits. 20 pts.
Neptune
Auto-Scram Launch Bays: This vessel may launch twice it's normal capacity one round, but must reload ordnance twice before launching again. The extra attack craft do NOT count for the total fleet launch capacity. 25 pts.
Deck Guns: Increase dorsal lance strength to 3. 15 pts.
SAT systems (Sensor Assisted Turret): The neptune may re-roll any failed turret hits and shoots down "stealth" ordnance (such as eldar attack craft and torpedos) on a 4+ instead of a 6+. 20 pts.
Titan
Engine Refit: Increase speed to 20cm. 5 pts.
Armored Broadsides: Port and Starboard armor is increased to 6. 15 pts.
Additional Shield generator: This cannot be taken if Engine Refit is taken. +1 Shield, 15 pts.
Io.
Advanced Torpedo Systems: You may select up to two special torpedo's from the Advanced Torpedo's List, one selection may be normal torpedo's which ignore the rules for running out of ammunition. This ship may fire either type of torpedo ammunition, selected when the vessel goes on Reload special orders. Both ammunition selections (unless one selection is normal torpedo's) can run out of ammunition on a reload ordnance roll of doubles. If one runs out of ammo, the other selection does not until doubles are rolled for it as well. If both run out of ammunition, torpedo's may not be fired. 25 pts
Armored prow: Increase prow armor to 6+ 10pts
AI assisted Defense Systems: The Io gets +1 in defending against boarding actions.
Jupiter
Long Service Record: All vessels in the fleet gain +1 LD while the Jupiter is on the table. If the Jupiter disengages or is destroyed, all ships suffer -1 LD. Free
Fusion Accelerated MAC cannons: The dorsal armament is increased to St 10. 20 pts.
Advanced Torpedo Systems: 35 pts, see Io.
Saturn
Emergency Repair Teams: once per game, all repairs are made on a 4+. 5 pts.
Elite pliots: All attack craft launched from the Saturn count as Resilient. 50 pts.
Deck Guns: for 10 points each, the dorsal lance armament may be increased up to st 4.
Bulwark
E. M. Disruptors: May replace lances with E. M. Disruptors for 5 points per strength.
Additional Engine Coil: Increase speed by +5 cm and +1d6 on AAF.
Advanced Beam Turret: prow weapons may fire FLR for 25 pts.
Terran Escort:
Racing Stripes: If properly painted, these vessels may go AAF for free for no additional cost.
Huge Gun: May take a third weapon system, but is reduced to 15cm speed.
Huge Engine: may take only one weapon system, increases speed by 10 cm and +2d6 AAF.
Alien Escort:
E.M. Disruptors: may take E.M. Disruptors for 5 points per strength.
Defensive design: hit and run attacks require a 5+ to destroy these vessels. 5 pts per ship.
Flachette Cannon: Increase turret value by 2, may only take 1 weapon system.
Advanced Torpedo Systems:
Standard Torpedo: These torpedo's function like normal torpedo's and never run out of ammunition.
Energy Torpedo's: When fired, these torpedo's ignore the effects of gas clouds or blast markers but are intercepted normally by ship turrets, fighters, or other torpedo's. If the ship they are hitting has shields up, remove the marker and place a blast marker on the ships base. If the vessel has no shields, these torpedo's hit as normal but cause a critical hit on the roll of a 4+. These torpedo's are removed from the table at the end of the round (aka, two ordnance phases).
Disruptor Torpedo: These torpedo's follow the same rules as Energy Torpedo's but do the following if a successful hit is scored. Instead of doing damage, that facing of the vessel suffers a weapon damaged critical hit, if 3 or more successfully hit the ship, add an additional D3 weapons damaged critical hits. If the torpedo's hit the rear arc, the damage becomes Engine Room (this is the only way these torpedo's can cause damage to an enemy ship).
Singularity Torpedo: Reduce the strength of the salvo by half. These torpedo's function as a normal torpedo, but each successful hit causes 3 chances to cause critical damage on the enemy vessel
Swarmer Torpedo: When fired, the torpedo uses a st 6 template. Against capital ships, it functions as normal. Against escort squadrons the torpedo's are shot down on a turret roll of a 6, and all bonuses to turrets are negated.
IFF Torpedo: These torpedo's do not attack friendly vessels, and thus may be fired through friendly ships and hulks.
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Did you do BotV? All I can say right now is 'never get rid of those light cruisers!' :p
If anything, they are a bit pricey compared to the rest of chaos, but i play em cuz i love the look and idea. Well, I play one, in friendly games :)
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well, Me, and a lot of other people.
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See first post.
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Jupiter: increase torpedo strength to 8
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Okay... I am going to be considering an abandonment to the upgrade list, in favor of 3 unique upgrades to each capitol ship vessel, and the two escort classes. the Mercury won't need any special upgrades, neither will the gould and orchestra. I will post them here later.
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I want your opinions on the book of the void. What should change? should anything be added? deleted? please, give me your input and opinions!
'Smuch as I'd like to offer you mine, where would I find yur current draft to review it?
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http://www.cdt.qc.ca/bfg/Diasporex.pdf
see first post.
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see first post.
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I'll tell my opinion: the upgrades that you suggest for every ship are very tasty, they seem fair and reasonable, but I prefer the previous mechanic of the huge list where to pick with freedom, for two reason:
1) it is the flavour of the fleet about game mechanic (in my opninion)
2) it is more sensed from the background viewpoint (they have engineers! Not stupid mechanicus adepts! For the right points they can make ALL!!)
about the Saturn: remember to correct the mistake in Saturn's profile (the swith between launch bays and lances)
I don't like the Rotating focusing crystal on the ceti cruiser because it makes the ship too easy to move and hit, also Lock On would be too easy to reach IMHO. I liked the way this ship needed to be moved to be effective, not so simple. Or at least make it cost very very much
when rolling randomly for the upgrades with 3 dices, I couldn't obtain the result n° 2 :P
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Thanks for the response!!
Yeah, I have gotten some dislike for the new mechanic but hear me out :)
As I have worked through the rules, it became pretty damn evident that some were just a little too extreme for human technology (even if it is golden age stuff). I could just go back and adjust them, but then they would feel less then amazing.
Also, by giving one universal list for the whole fleet, I started wondering... Why would they not just apply these upgrades to the entire fleet? The galaxy is big, resources can be found and when your fighting for your survival, it's easy to justify it.
Lets face it, they are not supposed to mop up every other fleet, and when they encounter the Admech, it should be a fight to the bloody, bitter end. Survival is the goal, and they simply do not have the resources the Admech has at their disposal. Each ship is weaker (with a few exceptions) to it's chaos counterpart.
I really wanted to work off of both the humanity and ingenuity of the Diasporex engineers and scientists, so instead of a big block of upgrades, I had examples of how wily (and possibly drunk on engine de-greaser) officers came up with ideas on the spot, and made them reality.
The saturns profile has been adjusted, and the torpedo armament has been increased on the jupiter. It now is a true battleship and not a grand cruiser in disguise.
The ceti ship is expensive and risky by nature. People single it out with the same force as they single out the Ganymede, so I thought it could use a little more flexibility since it has limited range and only two types of specific armament. If you have a better idea, i am open to it!
I am also adding at the bottom a little roleplay module on how to turn BFG into an RPG (i was never a fan of rogue trader, too small scale).
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Hey folks, with some help from friends to playtest, we have found that the rules (aside from a tweak here and there) seem to work out just fine.
What i really want to ask is fluff related.
How would you like to see the fluff evolve? this is the time to put your opinion foreword!
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*spoiler alert*
In the book they go pretty much down vs the IN at one point? Right?
So perhaps a 2nd fleet exists? Another route through the universe?
The old fleet gathers with what is left? Guerilla? Change to more warfare tactics?
Quest for solar things?
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In the book, that was just one cruiser, the rest of the fleet still remains.
I have no issue with them turning more guerrilla in nature, but what event would push them to do so?
They are always on a quest to recover derelict ships and STC data to keep them away from the Adeptus Mechanus.
what do you mean by solar things??
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Hi Guys,
I can't download the book of the void pdf as the link doesn't work. If anyone could see fit to furnish us with a working link that would be much appreciated.
Cheers,
RayB HA
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Holy crap!! the HA spoke!!
me and Cyberdragon have been working with the PDF, here is the new link
http://www.cdt.qc.ca/bfg/Diasporex_V2.pdf
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also, realize that this PDF is a hash at the moment, the old upgrade list is still there, which will be removed, and the torpedo rules need to be added as well.
What is more important is the story right now. I want ideas, input, stuff like that.
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wait a minute: the normal table of upgrades and the little list of upgrades of each ship are cumulative?
EDIT: sorry for the idiomatic error because I'm not anglophone, but a personal message would have worked the same, am I correct?
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wait a minute: the normal table of upgrades and the little list of upgrades of each ship are cumulable cumulative?
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also, what about introducing the Earthseed itself, starting from a hulk for the base? Maybe with the condition of using this huge ship only in very big battles. I always felt the loss of the Earthseed from the 1st release of the Diasporex
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The old table is going to be removed, the new table is what will stand.
The earthseed is a little like a Craftworld. Some things are just too big to have in game. What I can do instead of giving it a stat list is make a special scenareo similar to exterminatus or planetary assault.
The issue with doing this is... The defense fleet currently surrounding the Earthseed is so large, that it would require an entire crusade to be launched against it in full force to threaten it. We are talking Mecharian Crusade in scale here.
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ok for the Earthseed motivation. I was thinking too about a special scenario concerning exterminatus or similar.
My problem is with the upgrades, I mean: the new table is only the one that is attached to the profile of each single ship?
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yes, instead of giving a large umbrella list, I felt it would be much easier to balance by giving ships specific upgrades then providing a huge list.
Also, it makes each ship more unique and provides them a far more specific purpose once upgraded.
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Here are the things that I want to work on.
1. Story, story story! How can we make them more interesting without harming the plot?
2. Points adjustments. Probably a distant second, they are pretty well balanced now.
3. Earthseed mission. I am always willing to listen to potential missions involving the earthseed.
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we absolutely NEED to keep the huge list mechanic. Without the big list, ther is no Diasporex fleet, they are only another faction.
Their first feature is characterization, which other reason would attract players to them?
Small tailored tables are too restrictive, players can't show any originality or any idea that designers haven't previously expected (pretending that 16 upgrades can't be handled all togheter). At least it's a limit too heavy.
Things should work differently: designers have to fix performances of ships and sinergies; limiting the upgrades for the Diasporex to achieve this object is the easier path.
I say: Diasporex destiny is braided to the huge upgrade table: the better it work, the better Diasporex will be known. Little tables will make them lose their flavour.
SO
here is what I want to propose about which work has to be done about the upgrade list:
-1) first drawing up of the table, trying to vary as much as possible the effects of the upgrades
-2) research of the more game breaking combinations
now we have to imagine how to avoid them, I thought about four way of action, propose your own:
-increase the point cost of one of the indicted upgrades
-ban expressly the guilty combination (instead of all the table)
-introduce a side score, assign to each upgrade a value and tell that a certain amount can't be passed
-divide the upgrades into two classes, then we can pick maximum one upgrade of the first class (more powerful) and maximum one or two (depending from the ship) of the second class (less powerful ones)
My aim is to point out that small upgrades tables are good from the point of view of the designer, but not from the point of view of the players
I don't ask for more ships
I don't want ships more powerful
I don't need uber-upgrades
I want freedom in choice!
Sigoroth, I rely on you to point out every single grammar or idiomatic error and make a thread for it ;)
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Unlike Sigoroth, I am not much of a grammar snob :)
I am not unreasonable, and I really do understand your desires. Let's talk about it then.
Currently I am weighing the intense freedom of a large list like in the original warp rift document, which was extremely easy to abuse, or ship specific upgrades that can only be abused to a point.
I agree that we can go over the rules with a fine tooth comb and locate overpowered rules and isolate them, but in doing so, we are limiting the freedom you so desire.
Horizon, Cyberdragon and others have expressed support for the new layout, mostly because it is a far more streamlined way of doing things and prevents individual ships from becoming overbalanced in regards to points.
The way I desired the setup was: if you wanted a large number of ships, take them vanilla and compensate for their lack of firepower with numbers. If you wanted more powerful ships, pay for it and have a Heavy Cruiser fleet (much like the Admech fleet is a battlecruiser fleet). The difference between this and the Admech fleet is still the same: Choice.
Another problem with both of the old upgrade list is simply that some upgrades inevitably are taken in preference to others. Every time I used to make a list I found myself taking the same two or three upgrades over and over again, leaving the rest by the wayside to be ignored. I wanted each ship to stand on its own and serve a unique roll in the fleet instead of a platform for the same upgrades over and over again.
Now, the callisto can function much like a "light" cruiser with its enhanced maneuverability, the Ganymede can survive the inevitable flurry of damage it will experience, and the Europa is given the flexibility to be a combat cruiser as well as a carrier.
Titans are now hard to kill (as they should be), Io's are terrors in space, the neptune can handle a fleets launch capacity by itself and both battleships can stand on their own merits.
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I prefer the individual upgrades for each ship rather than the big list. I also have some comments on the upgrade rules which i'll post presently.
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Gah! swallowed by the webs. Will repost later.
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Repost damn you! I want to see!!
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Here is the list of proposed upgrades
Callisto: These upgrades to the callisto work to make it a more versitile fighting platform (over what it already is!) while also attempting to increase its maneuverability on the whole. This endeavor was made to combat the increasing numbers of light cruisers the fleet has been encountering, and find a way to "fill the hole" left in their fleet.
Rapid Turret Hydrolics: You may fire the dorsal lance a second time in a different arc. 10pts
If it's just rapid aiming, why can't it fire twice at a single target, or at two targets in the same arc? Multi-strength dorsals can already split fire at as many targets in as many arcs as they wish, so I don't think this rule works either way.
Emergency Maneuvering thrusters: When fired upon, before dice are rolled and gunnary is resolved, the callisto may make a LD check. If passed, it may make a sudden 45 degree turn in either direction. The vessel may not go on special orders next round (but may still brace for impact). 10 pts.
In the interests of minimising leadership checks, maybe make this 'when the Callisto goes on BFI, it may immediately make a 45' turn. This turn is executed before finding how many dice to roll on the gunnery table and before any to hti rolls are made.
Vectored Engine Coils: When on Come to New Heading, the vessel make make a free 45 degree turn BEFORE moving (effectively giving it a maximum of 3 turns). 10 pts.
Ganymede: The upgrades to this vessel seek to make it more resilient and have greater longevity in battle. Due to the incredible firepower of this vessel, it is frequently viewed as a "first target of enemy ships. Diasporex engineers have been working tirelessly to allow the vessel to survive the 'wave of fire' that comes at them as a result.
Automated Repair Systems: My repair port, starboard, dorsal, and prow damage on a 5+ instead of a 6. 10 pts.
Power Reserves: CTNH, BR, AAF only reduce the strength of the ships weapons by 25%. 10 pts. 3/4 is harder to calculate than 1/2 or 1/4. Just an FYI.
Armored Engine Core: Upon a Thrusters or Engine room damage critical, roll a d6. On a 4+, the damage is ignored (though the effect still remains) 10 pts.
Seems very situational for 10pts.
Europa: This vessel has seen the most combat, and as such, has the most radical upgrade options due to "on the spot" weapon load outs after severe damage to the vessel. Typically they result in making it a more potent combat vessel, while still being able to provide strike craft support to the fleet.
Deck Gun: This vessel can sacrifice 2 launch capacity (one from each side) for an additional dorsal lance that fires at 30cm FLR.:Free
Emission Shields: Vessel ignores blast markers for boarding, movement and leadership: 15 pts
reinforced Superstructure: Vessel only counts as crippled when reduced to 2 hits. 15 pts
Io: the Upgrades to the Io are focused on making the vessel the ultimate arbiter of space combat. Increasing toughness, firepower, and boarding defense, it makes the vessel a terrifying prospect to combat.
Automated Torpedo Loaders: This vessel may select two torpedo ammunition types, including normal torpedo's (that never run out of ammunition). With every Reload Ordnance phase, it may switch between ammunition types. This vessel can run out of ammunition on a roll of doubles for the Reload Ordnance rule. If one type of ammunition runs out of ammo, the other may still be reloaded and fired as normal until it too runs out of ammunition. If both run out of ammunition, torpedos may not be fired. 25 pts
I think this rule could be written more clearly, as I don't fully understand it. Let me know if this comes close: This vessel may select two torpedo ammunition types, including normal torpedoes or any special torpedo type. Either type of torpedoes may be loaded into the tubes on a Reload Ordnance order. To unload readied torpedos and load the other type requires a Reload Ordnance order. Normal torpedoes follow all the usual rules, however special torpedos will run out if a double is rolled whilst reloading them. If one type of ammunition runs out of ammo, the other may still be reloaded and fired as normal until it too runs out of ammunition. If both run out of ammunition, torpedos may not be fired.
Heavy Armored Prow: Increase prow armor to 6+
AI Controlled Defense Systems: +1 in defensive boarding actions.
Jupiter: The jupiter has a long history in the fleet and has a well known and successful combat record. It has been modified over the years extensively into a fierce fighting and command vessel, and the sight of one is inspirational for the rest of the fleet.
Automated Torpedo Loaders: see Io, 35 pts
Deck Guns: Increases the strength of the dorsal MAC Cannons to 12, 20 pts
Long Service Record: This vessel is well known in the fleet and has a long service record. The entire fleet benefits from a +1 to LD to a max of 9. If destroyed, the entire fleet suffers -1 ld. the Fleet Master MUST be on this vessel.
Titan: Most upgrades to the titan fit into it's simple operational mission specs: Defend other ships, be difficult to kill. Simple does not mean ineffective, as the upgrades rendered to the vessel make it immensely difficult to kill.
Engine Overhaul: Increase speed to 20cm. +5 pts
Ablative Broadside Plating: Increase Port and starboard armor to 6+ 15 pts
Additional Shield Core: +1 to shields 10 pts
Neptune: Making up for it's design flaws by increasing the vessels capacity to survive and contribute to combat, the upgrades change it's operational capacity to that of a Heavy Support Carrier, increasing it's capacity to engage enemies at range.
Auto Scram Launchers: lay launch twice the normal launch capacity in one round, but must reload ordnance twice before it may launch again: 20 pts.
Is this really worth 20pts considering it doesn't output more ordnance on average? How does this interact with the fleet control limit?
Deck Gun: increases it's dorsal lance armament to 3: 10 pts
Advanced Turret Systems: may re-roll turrets: 10 pts
Saturn: The Saturn carriers are always filled with the best and the brightest, but the opportunity to serve on the largest carrier vessel in the fleet pushes these exemplary individuals above and beyond the call of duty. While some changes can be made to the dorsal armament, the real power lay in the crew manning this experimental vessel.
Ace Pilots: All fighters, bombers and assault boats count as resillient, 50 pts
Not really worth 50pts?
Emergency repair teams: Once per game, you may repair critical damage on a 4+. 20 pts.
Bit situational to be worth 20pts?
Deck Guns: Increase dorsal lance strength up to 4, 10 points per strength.
Bulwark Cruiser:
The Alien design and larger hull allows for great versitility in its' design, and even exceeding the Terran cruisers in some areas, including engines and armament. If overhauled completely, it becomes an incredibly powerful assault cruiser.
EM Disruptors: Each lance may be replaced with an EM disruptor for 5 points each.
Alien Engine Coil: increase speed by 5 cm, +1 to aaf special orders 20 pts
Rotating focusing crystals: Prow weapons now may fire FLR. 20 pts.
Terran Escorts: Upgrades made by these vessels usually are made because the over-excited engineers of the vessel want to see how far they can "trick out" their ships or engine coils, usually resulting in some pretty remarkable results.
Huge Engines: Takes one less weapon system, but doubles the vessels speed. Free
Huge Gun: Diverting power from the engines and thrusters, the vessel can arm itself with weapons far larger then are normal spec. Increases the range of it's firepower to 45, but reduces speed to 10 cm and turns to 45. 5 points per ship.
Speed 10 turns 45 is pretty slow for a miniscule increase in range, surely?
Racing Stripes: Many of the smaller vessels were designed for raw speed, raced against other custom vessels in dangerous and exciting displays of engineering sport. This vessel may go AAF for free: 5 points per ship, MUST BE PAINTED AS SUCH!
Alien Escorts: Alien escorts tend to be much older, and upgraded for performance and combat prowess instead of testing the very limits of their ships power systems. This does not mean they are not effective. The unique power systems present allow them to even take the devistating Ceti EM Disruptor.
EM Disruptors: may replace lances with em disruptors for 5 pts each
Flachette Cannons: each ship may reduce its battery strength by 1 to increase turret value by 1 for free.
Defensive Design: hit and run attacks are at a -1. 5 pts per ship.
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Okay, most of your concerns have already been accounted for with more recent write ups sent to cyberdragon. Let me see what i can work with.
1. (rapid turrets). Why not twice at the same target? because fluff? maybe the weapon would overheat with such rapid fire and it needs time to dissipate the heat.
Mostly because it is an issue of balance, because otherwise i would just add a second lance.
2.(math) Because it is already a present mechanic in the game, and most of us own calculators. With the known "round up" policy in the game, its' not so hard.
3. (AAC) I can't count how many times i wish i had a save on that damage.
4. This has been clarified in a newer write up. Basically, by taking this, you get the choice of two torpedo ammunition types. One can be normal torps and never run out, or they both can be special torps taken from the table. all special torps abide by the "run out of ammo" rules. If you run out of ammo for one, you don't for the other selected ammo until doubles for both are rolled.
5 (scram launchers)
This is similar to the berserker rule for chaos vessels, you may launch more then normal, but from just this ship (not another). The whole fleet limit thing was a stupid choice and should have been ship-by-ship. 20 points to launch st 12 bombers or A-boats.. yes i think it's worth it, even if it's every other round.
6. Resilient bombers, fighters and A boats are powerful to say the least, on a launch capacity 8 platform, its even better. I would say its worth the points.
7. remember that the ship is prone to critical damage, also, the chance to repair like a necron for one round can be hugely beneficial.
8. that's a typo. it should be reduce BY 10 cm, Either way, i am open to suggestion on these rules.
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I agree that we can go over the rules with a fine tooth comb and locate overpowered rules and isolate them, but in doing so, we are limiting the freedom you so desire.
it's true, but I would still have more than three options per ship
The way I desired the setup was: if you wanted a large number of ships, take them vanilla and compensate for their lack of firepower with numbers. If you wanted more powerful ships, pay for it and have a Heavy Cruiser fleet (much like the Admech fleet is a battlecruiser fleet).
ok, this can be achieved
Another problem with both of the old upgrade list is simply that some upgrades inevitably are taken in preference to others. Every time I used to make a list I found myself taking the same two or three upgrades over and over again, leaving the rest by the wayside to be ignored. I wanted each ship to stand on its own and serve a unique roll in the fleet instead of a platform for the same upgrades over and over again.
ok, it's another problem with uber-combinations.
I admit that I have always avoided some upgrades:
-reactive armor: I have always preferred the heavy armor upgrade
-enhanced turret systems: I have always preferred the advanced turret system, the first one seems to be designed for escorts, but I have the habit to make them travel in base contact for turret protection
-backup shield systems: in single games it can't be determinant, it's easier that it won't be usad
-auto sealing bulkheads isn't my favourite
I would suggest the change of Auto sealing bulheads, Backup shield systems and Reactive armor (even if I think that the first and the second are very fluffy).
Which are your less favourite upgrades?
On the other side, I have to say that in almost every game I played with the heavy armour. Maybe it need an increased point value?
Which were you super-combos that we need to avoid? I found them rather in the very first Diasporex fleet list
Apart all, in your little tables there is a lot of new tasty upgrades for beefing the big list
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I am actually really thrilled to even be having this conversation. It is so refreshing to know that someone aside from me and a few friends enjoys the Diasporex as much as I do!
Now, getting back to the point.
Another really important issue that needs to be addressed is the fact that while the ships are built on the same template design, their internal workings are significantly different. It is just not realistic to imagine that all ships would be open to the same upgrades as another.
Take for example, the Ganymede. Most of its mission section is taken up by short lived power systems to keep its gigantic lance cannons operating. Why would this ship be just as flexible as, say, a Callisto, which has a far more flexible design?
Now, Let me highlight some of the upgrades that I think could be adjusted or replaced.
Callisto: AI assisted targetting (the new name for the lance upgrade)
Ganymede: Power reserves
Europa: Reinforced Superstructure
Titan: Additional Shield core
Human escorts: huge engines and huge guns.
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1. (rapid turrets). Why not twice at the same target? because fluff? maybe the weapon would overheat with such rapid fire and it needs time to dissipate the heat.
But a second time at a different target is no less frequently than twice at one target, so heat dissipation/recharge time makes no sense. Hitting on a 3+ makes sense as a rule for turrets with a superior tracking ability, but at the ranges involved it isn't the rate the turret can turn that makes the difference, and as already mentioned existing weaponry already has the ability to fire into multiple arcs AND combine fire against one target.
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speaking about Old Age of Tecnology, I sometimes thought that those ships could have every device (the upgrades) on board but that they could power only very few of them for energy reserves reason. So every ship has the possibility to use every upgrade.
Old Age Tecnology is better, it also means that devices are more little than those of the present times, so they all can be contained into a ship.
We can always rely on the traditional version: it's not the ship that is flexible, it's Diasporex tecnology that permit those changes
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You are absolutely right, but let's not forget that the modern ships have had most of the comforts that the old age enjoyed removed in favor of stronger engine/weapon output.
Better technology is not just about blowing things up, its about making life on the ship more hospitible. I am removing the upgrade restrictions, so if you want to purchase all three upgrades and have a 200+ point cruiser, so be it.
Part of what makes the technology better is the understanding and capacity to upgrade it as well!
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Human Escorts
Huge gun: may take one extra wepon system, reduced speed by 15cm. 5points
Huge engines: loses one wepon system, increase speed by 15cm. 5points
I like what you did with the upgrade table the Saturn, Neptune, Titan, and Ganymede just changed from "barely useful" to "Extremly Viable." And the Io is EVEN BETTER, if you can believe that.
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so at this point the change to little tables is irreversible, right?
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Zaxqua: A rather bold concept. I approve! Thanks by the way.
Eudaimon: Nothing is irreversible, I have just received a LOT of popular support for the idea. I would need some serious convincing to undo it.
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Okay, I am going to be doing another update to the changes (which means the first post in this forum WILL change.)
Again, What i need most of all is opinions on STORY. I need to know how to progress the fluff in the best possible way. Here are a few ways I was thinking of doing so.
"A Day in the life of a Diasporex Officer"
Piratical and opportunistic tactics to acquire supplies difficult to refine themselves (dense alloys, foodstuffs, etc)
Observation of the Warp (their disregard that anything out of the warp can be defined as "demons" or "monsters", they are just predatory entities that are not deserving of superstition.
Genetic screening (deliberate removal of psyker gene)
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Okay, I am going to be doing another update to the changes (which means the first post in this forum WILL change.)
Again, What i need most of all is opinions on STORY. I need to know how to progress the fluff in the best possible way. Here are a few ways I was thinking of doing so.
There are two thing that would make the fluff more believable and more fun. The First is to make facts about daily life like culture, traditions, ect. The Second is to invent different factions or sub-groups that have different ideas and goals but who all work for the good of the Diasporex.
"A Day in the life of a Diasporex Officer"
Sounds like a good short story. Could I help with that? I love writing stories based in 40k
Piratical and opportunistic tactics to acquire supplies difficult to refine themselves (dense alloys, foodstuffs, etc)
Alloys:yes Food:mabye, but I think they could grow a lot in the earthseed and goulds
Observation of the Warp (their disregard that anything out of the warp can be defined as "demons" or "monsters", they are just predatory entities that are not deserving of superstition.
Yes. That would make absolute perfect sense with the fluff.
Genetic screening (deliberate removal of psyker gene)
A)why would such a free-thinking and tolerant race deliberately get rid of something useful? B)this is completely at odds with your last idea. If thier not supersticious and want to study the warp, then they can't get rid of psykers. C)How do they communicate without astropaths?
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There is only so much you can grow and make on the Earthseed. With several billion people to feed, some things can run short, and resources for fertilizers and livestock can be difficult to maintain while feeding a large population.
Sure you can help, please send it to me so i can look it over.
Why screen for psykers? because psykers are dangerous and unnecessary. An alpha psyker alone can blow a hole in the side of a ship, or draw the attention of warp entities. It is a security issue. Any psykers born are immediately confiscated and raised in military intelligence departments for shadowy black operation projects.
Remember the story of how a normal orc suddenly had a demon explode from his head while traveling through the warp? They would like to avoid that.
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If they don't get food from the earthseed, where else can they posibly get it? Piratical operations could never feed all the diasporex, and they don't maintain planetary outposts. Ther are only two options then: either they have advanced and alien technology allowing them to grow/syntesize foodstuffs at a ludicrous rate, or they have a massive and incredibly complex network of secret traders who siphon suplies from the Imperium and alien races. Or mabye a combination of both.
I have a few questions regarding the story, will PM you later.
I must have misread the psyker comment, I thought you meant genetically modifying humans so that psykers ceased to exist. Taking them at birth and puting them to special use is good and matches fluff from other races (Imperium especially).
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Allow me to clarify.
On a strict rationing diet, The diasporex manage well, but with any sort of agriculture, there is a general loss of resources over time, even in a near-perfect system. This is why phosphorous mines are so wildly profitable.
Even if the Earthseed is huge, there is only so much resources they can devote to livestock. because of this, protein tends to be a rare treat. Even High Senators rarely see it, and may be lucky to see fresh meat once a year instead of Soy, or other synthesized proteins. This is just the horrible truth about living off world: space is at a premium.
This means whenever a supply convoy is found, they are raided and anything useful is taken. Things like raw materials, foods, fuel cores are taken, along with a few ships to be broken down for raw materials. Things like weapons of war, farming supplies, etc. are ignored.
Another thing limiting the agriculture is that the Earthseed has some of the very last examples of pure Terran biomes, and replacing them with agriculture would destroy them forever, along with eradicating any surviving species that live in said biomes. These are held to be some of the Earthseeds greatest treasures, and any foolish Senator who suggests it quickly finds himself disgraced and voted out of office.
The Goulds tend to be used by the other races as their "home" base, since many still prefer their own company to that of humans, and some cannot survive in an oxygen rich environment. While there are several of them, most of them are provided to the partners of the Diasporex and are far closer to floating cities then colonizing vessels at this point.
They are not modified, its closer to selective breeding. When a couple desire to have children, their DNA is screened for the likelihood of producing a psyker for a child. If it is a high probability, they are barred from breeding and suggested to adopt. The High Senate recognizes that this is a rather draconian approach, but it's a better alternative to having an Alpha Psyker lose his mind and turn the Earthseed into a lawnchair (yes they can do this.)
When one is born, usually in defiance of the law (where the parents are severely punished for risking the safety of the fleet) or by sheer chance, the child is taken by the Naval command and raised in highly controlled environments so they can grow up to manage their powers responsibly. They are NOT above killing the psyker if they prove to be unstable.
The end result is that the Psyker gene is weaker in the Terrans then it is in Humans, simply by force of breeding and social pressures. When your home is a space ship, it's just too dangerous. Also, remember that a single Oddboy can be put on a stick and used as a 15cm lance. Imagine that coming from INSIDE the ship where there is no armor plating!
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So, basically, they eat synthetic junk and natural food is a rare delicacy enjoyed almost entirely by the higher ranks. I can work with that.
I see your point about psykers, from reading on the subject I've found that most of them are insane and hard to control. Idea: each diasporex psyker is accompanied by a unit of elite "Black Guard" whose sole purpose is to shoot him if something goes wrong.
Oh, and if a alpha psyker can turn the earthseed into a lawnchair, than by the same reasoning a psyker could make several more earthseeds complete with ecosystems out of a chess set. ;D
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Yes, but the earthseeds they create are made out of antimatter, and tend to cause small star systems to explode.
Again, adding black guard makes them too imperial in nature, and sounds like commisariat. to me.
Also, they don't have the resources to do this.. it's easy to control the problem when they are young instead of dealing with the problem when they are older.
I may have some really exciting news from Mangozac of Resinaddict for you all... keep your eyes peeled!
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So what your saying is psykers can't really control their own powers. What is Mangozac of Resinaddict?
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He makes stuff in resin. Good stuff as far as I know :D
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resinaddict.com
Check out his blog section, you may find yourself drooling uncontrollably.
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Does he sell the Zeus cruiser? Almost makes me want to start a Voss fleet.
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Yes he does, he also sells a resin light cruiser in both the Endeavor and Dauntless design.
When I found him doing this, I replaced my ENTIRE FLEET with voss prows.
We are brainstorming a cruiser chassis for the diasporex, we have a few wicked ideas so far... keep your fingers crossed!
Some of the interesting ideas we have come up with...
two different hulls, one for carriers, one for gunships
weapons will be, instead of large 'bay like' bits, determined by turret bits, think acherons only larger.
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Voss prows are win.
So one hull for europa and neptune, and one for callisto, ganymede, and titan?
Be nice to have models designed specifically for the diasporex.
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the IO will probably be made out of the same hull as the callisto, ganymede and titan
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That seems a little unfair to the Io. It's the best ship they have and it gets the same hull as a regular cruiser? How does 8hit callisto and 8hit ganymede and 8hit titan =10hit super ultamite death cruiser? Am I missing something?
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I understand your feelings on the matter, however, if you look at a Repulsive (which is what the Io was based on) it is EXACTLY the same as a normal cruiser (with a few negligible changes). The only thing that sets it apart is it's prow.
What will separate out the Io from the rest of the fleet is it's raw firepower in comparison to the other ships, and torpedo tubes of course.
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Ok, fine, as long as no one is allowed to field it without making it look different than a regular cruiser.
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Heh so bossy!
don't sweat it. If we can agree on a design, I won't let it go without a clear way to separate it out.
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Hey folks. I am sure you all want an update on what is going on.
My life has hit a busy stretch, that probably won't stop until september or so, but this has not stopped me from work on this project. Since the rules are effectively finalized (effectively. If you have issues with any of them, SEND ME A PM) I am working on backstory and fluff.
Me and Mangozac of Resinaddict are working on a ship design for the Diasporex. We have some pretty wicked ideas (thanks to the inspired modeling work of my friend Brandon.)
Right now, we have ideas for cruiser level ships, battleships, I am sure, will follow.
If you have story ideas, PLEASE tell me! I am open to inspiration!
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Can't wait. The Diasporex rules have been my work reading material lately. I like it and I think most of the ideas you posted in this thread will make them even better.
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More news.
We have a sketch artist!
Zac is finishing up other projects and then we can go full swing into this.
Any story ideas?
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Okay folks. The Diasporex 2011 RULES part are done, all the upgrades are properly worded and points allocated. I think you will be quite satisfied!
Right now I am accepting quotes to go in text boxes and stories to go in pages. Please show me what ya got!