Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: horizon on December 08, 2010, 07:58:41 PM
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So, the game offers the Imperial Navy three main fleet lists:
Battlefleet Gothic
Battlefleet Gothic Armageddon
Bastion fleet list
Now the Armageddon list has a wide choice of selection going on and the asset it can take Space Marine vessels. Added to this the cheap Master of the Fleet with high Ld and cheap re-rolls. BattleBarges, Strike Cruisers, Space Marine escorts and the Falchion Frigate are unique choices.
The list does not have acces to:
Retribution battleship, three Grand Cruisers, Overlord battlecruiser, Dominator cruiser, Dauntless light cruiser.
Added to this is the fact that the Sword & Cobra are only available as RSV variants (added costs but Marine rules).
The Bastion list misses the Space Marine ship & command options but has access to a wide range of Imperial ships. Unique to this list are the three Grand Cruisers.
The list does not have access to:
Oberon battleship, Dominator cruiser, Falchion Frigate.
It has the three standard IN escorts at a normal prize available.
The Gothic list then, the blue print of the other fleets has the same command as the Bastion list. However this list is gifted with the smalles choice of ship selection.
It has no acces to:
Oberon battleship, Apocalypse battleship, Three Grand Cruisers, Armageddon battlecruiser, Three Voss light cruisers, Falchion frigate. (And no Marines).
The list has one unique aspect: the Dominator cruiser.
That's it.
Now the Dominator is an Easter Fringe/Kar Duniash vessel. So it would be freely available in those lists as well if they existed.
Now, what should be the appeal, aside of setting and wanting to play in character of your fleet admiral, of the Gothic Fleet List?
Compared to the Armageddon list the difference is to be noticed and one could prefer the Gothic list over Armageddon because of said Dominator, but also because of the Dauntless and Sword & Cobra at normal prize.
Compared to the Bastion list these difference are lowered to the Dominator.
Through reserve rules the Bastion/Armageddon can take a Dominator on a 1:3 basis. This is enough to bring one Dominator in a 1500pts list.
So unless you want to play with 2 or more Dominators in 1500pts there is no appeal to take the Gothic list.
To further insult it all: according the Dominator background only ONE of them served in the Gothic War. Thus, the fluff player would also take only 1 Dominator in his Imperial Navy.
Thus: The Gothic List is only suited for fluff players.
This lead me to think that either:
i) The Gothic List must get something "cool" extra.
ii) The Bastion List must see some choices to be gone.
What are your opinions? Am I right? Or am I just wasting time? heh
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I see the three IN lists as a means to an end. the Gothic list was the original list and therefore wouldn't have any of the ships added in the Armada book which means you take it if you like dominators. The Armageddon list is for people who like the Oberon or mixed SM/IN fleets and has the nice 1:1 CA to CB ratio. The bastion list is the all inclusive list for everything else and I see it as an update to the Gothic list minus the dominator that lets me build whatever fleet I want with a few funky additions like the ability to take Chaos ships and veteran captains.
I wouldn't change any of the lists as it only ends up limiting the player more without any benefit. In fact, I'd rather have the bastion list expand to include the Oberon.
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What, indeed, is the point in having different lists?
For the IN, the Bastion list is effectively unrestricted. Why then have any restriction in the first place? Better to provide an unrestricted list and provide separate suggestions for the fluff players.
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I would think that the 1:1 CA to CB ratio could cause issues if the armageddon list had access to all ship types.
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But it wouldn't be a problem if the Bastion list had the few extra options.
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Delete the gothic list, it exists in segmentum obscuras. Add the dominator to the Bastion list.
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The lists represent only an extremely small fraction of the IN. We play with the fleet composition we agree on and have access to any ship of the fleet we are playing.
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It's kinda the same issue as the ork lists.
The Waagh list is just the pirate list with more options. They fixed this issue with the eldar by just replacing the gothic list with the 'later' gothic list.
The two chaos lists kind of have the same issue, but not as bad, the only thing the 12th crusade gets that the 13th doesn't get is that it's able to take multi-mark warmasters. Honestly I would get rid of this option and just make it entirely listed as 'black crusade'.
I would probably add in a special character to the gothic list, as it is a very specific sector. Every fleet could use one (well that have characters).
Does any one know of listings for a kar duniash based fleet? It would be nice to see what that looks like.
I imagine that the RT cruiser should be renamed to something like Hydra class cruiser, and would be much like the lunar in seg. solar, and seg. obscuras, mass produced and widely available.
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It's kinda the same issue as the ork lists.
The Waagh list is just the pirate list with more options. They fixed this issue with the eldar by just replacing the gothic list with the 'later' gothic list.
The two chaos lists kind of have the same issue, but not as bad, the only thing the 12th crusade gets that the 13th doesn't get is that it's able to take multi-mark warmasters. Honestly I would get rid of this option and just make it entirely listed as 'black crusade'.
I would probably add in a special character to the gothic list, as it is a very specific sector. Every fleet could use one (well that have characters).
Does any one know of listings for a kar duniash based fleet? It would be nice to see what that looks like.
I imagine that the RT cruiser should be renamed to something like Hydra class cruiser, and would be much like the lunar in seg. solar, and seg. obscuras, mass produced and widely available.
One would imagine it would be something like an Armageddon list, but with only Ultramarines ships.
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One would imagine it would be something like an Armageddon list, but with only Ultramarines ships.
No, there would be some IN there, they would just explode first turn from the 'awesome' and the realization that they could never compare to the ultramarines. Just look at the battle for macragge, there were pdf a lot of them, but they died instantly.
Also sicarius would be there, and would always have to disengage at the sight of the enemy. I mean he looked at the tyranid fleet and was like 'well, better the first company die instead of me'.
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One would imagine it would be something like an Armageddon list, but with only Ultramarines ships.
No, there would be some IN there, they would just explode first turn from the 'awesome' and the realization that they could never compare to the ultramarines. Just look at the battle for macragge, there were pdf a lot of them, but they died instantly.
Also sicarius would be there, and would always have to disengage at the sight of the enemy. I mean he looked at the tyranid fleet and was like 'well, better the first company die instead of me'.
Only if we let McNeil write it. Of course, then again, if we did that, we'd just put Space Marines on the table to represent them hopping fro ship to ship, blowing them up with thier plot powers.
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I think doing away with the Dominator completely would help alot with everything :)
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Now you just should walk out silenty and scratch that remark. I hope you're joking. Coolest IN cruiser around.
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No doubt. Yet its existence causes alot of problems.
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No it doesn't. At all.
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It has the same broadside firepower as a Lunar or Gothic. It has a forced Nova Upgrade for 10pts, and I would never pay more than that. I would actually prefer a non-Nova variant of the Dominator to save on points and to get more torps.
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LS, you have to differentiate bet the Dominator and the Nova Cannon. The Dominator is not a problem. The problem with the NC is the HA are so afraid of it for some reason that they keep neutering it with every release of an FAQ (activate "Detect Exag" mode) because they can't figure out a way to have players not spam the weapon.
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Spamming the nova cannon is something like spamming ordinance. It's a one trick pony, and only douches do it. Actually I would prefer someone spam nova cannons against me to ordinance. Very much actually (although I've never seen more than 4 on the table.)
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Spamming the nova cannon is something like spamming ordinance. It's a one trick pony, and only douches do it. Actually I would prefer someone spam nova cannons against me to ordinance. Very much actually (although I've never seen more than 4 on the table.)
The problem is that there are plenty of douches in the world.
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Those Douches! I guess the only solution would be a 'no douchiness' rule. Similar to page five in warmachine, but the opposite.
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Then prove the douches wrong. Sorry but that's what you're supposed to do. The NC is not an uber weapon. I for one am open to spamming such a fleet with the current NC rules. If that makes me a douche then so be it.
Change the rules into something better and I am agreeable to limiting it.
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Then prove the douches wrong. Sorry but that's what you're supposed to do. The NC is not an uber weapon. I for one am open to spamming such a fleet with the current NC rules. If that makes me a douche then so be it.
Change the rules into something better and I am agreeable to limiting it.
I don't think it should be limited, and wonder why people are so afraid of it. Ordinance spam is a way worse thing. Last time I fought 500 points against 2 NCs I lost 1 escort and 2 hits on my krooza to it. Really it's like Sigoroth (? maybe horizon) said in the limitations thread, you just need new tactics to beat it.
I'll say for one it's really nice to not run into a shit-ton of torpedoes when you get into weapons range.
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My point is that the Dominator causes 2 problems. It completely outshines the Tyrant as the go-to weapon battery cruiser for only 5 more points.
Additionally, it offers a cheap nova cannon option that puts all others to shame. If the Dominator didn't exist, NC would be self regulating.
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Nein, according to a lot the Tyrant still has a place -> Eldar hunter.
Dominator is not the cause of Nova Cannons.
Which incidentally under current rules aren't a problem either.
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My point is that the Dominator causes 2 problems. It completely outshines the Tyrant as the go-to weapon battery cruiser for only 5 more points.
Additionally, it offers a cheap nova cannon option that puts all others to shame. If the Dominator didn't exist, NC would be self regulating.
It's not the fault of the Dominator that the Tyrant sucks. Yes, sucks. If it had all 45 cm for 190 points, same as the Dominator, people might be fielding it more even with the conflicted problem of wanting to shoot at 45 cm resulting in a waste of the prow armor.
The Mars also has a cheap NC. So it's not true that if the Dominator didn't exist, the NC would be self regulating. That might be true if the Dominator is cheaper than the Lunar or Gothic but it isn't. The problem is not with the Dominator. The problem is an NC problem. Even if the Dominator did not exist, people will still spam the NC by using the Lunars, Tyrants, Mars and now the Armageddon. In a 1k match, instead of 5, one gets 4 NC ships (3 Dominators+1 Armageddon/Mars/Apocalypse). In a 1.5k match, one can still put 7 NC ships in (7 Dominators+change vs 7 Lunars/Tyrants+change) so no change there.
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It's not the fault of the Dominator that the Tyrant sucks. Yes, sucks. If it had all 45 cm for 190 points, same as the Dominator, people might be fielding it more even with the conflicted problem of wanting to shoot at 45 cm resulting in a waste of the prow armor.
Heya,
two things here:
1) Batteries vs abeam 5+ armour or vs closing 6+ armour = not a lot of difference (iirc Rcgothic said nothing at all).
2) Aren't we sometimes nitpicking? 195pts for a 45cm vessel or 190pts. Will those 5pts make a big difference in the end?
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In making lists, 5 points can go a-ways.
As for the batteries abeam vs 5+ or 6+, the point is more the Tyrant with all 45 cm can shoot at farther ranges and that's where the premium lies. I just think pricing the Dominator and Tyrant the same would make people choose more carefully. On one hand, you have a ship which can fire at 30-150 cm and have more firepower at 30 cm. On the other, a ship with broadsides at 45 cm.
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Once again, I find myself having to state that there's nothing wrong with NCs. They're nearly 3 times less destructive on average than a similar hardpoint of torpedoes and you pay a premium for the range.
The problem is that the Tyrant is overpriced and only especially useful vs Eldar. In the flawed ships thread, we've dropped it to 180pts base, which should help it compete against the Dominator.
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Once again, I find myself having to state that there's nothing wrong with NCs. They're nearly 3 times less destructive on average than a similar hardpoint of torpedoes and you pay a premium for the range.
The problem is that the Tyrant is overpriced and only especially useful vs Eldar. In the flawed ships thread, we've dropped it to 180pts base, which should help it compete against the Dominator.
But still, why take it, unless you anticipate fighting eldar?
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What, a str4 battery with 2 right shifts standard is beneficial against Eldar?
For the Tyrant fix, is 6 at 30cm and 6 at 45cm better, or rather 10 @ 45?
Aren't the NC upgrades expensive? I don't agree with them btw, not unless there are limits to them on things like Lunars and stuff they don't normally go on. Otherwise, novas are only on battlecruisers and battleships, which I consider to be self regulating.
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Nothing in the fluff indicates the NC is limited to battlecruisers and battleships. +20 points is expensive but as I've shown, one doesn't really lose out a lot on NC spamming even if the Dominator wasn't available and again: the NC is not worth regulating anyway because it is not overpowered.
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Right, no doubt. But torps become alot more attractive with a 20 point price tag on a nova, imo.
Heres an issue I personally see in IN fleets. Lots of torps. Lots of novas. Both get stronger the more you add on, and both look really cool on the table. It would be nice if a mixed fleet of what it should be, say, a 1:3 or 1:4 ratio of NC to torps, were just as competative, but I can't think of how.
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How come this became another NC regulation thread? We already have one of those, in the NC limitations thread.
Lets talk about the IN fleet lists....
And yes it's true, the Gothic fleet is a fluff player fleet. I would say leave the dominator there, and then expand its use in a segmentum ultima fleet list (probably a fleet list under the strategic conclave).
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Heres an issue I personally see in IN fleets. Lots of torps. Lots of novas. Both get stronger the more you add on, and both look really cool on the table. It would be nice if a mixed fleet of what it should be, say, a 1:3 or 1:4 ratio of NC to torps, were just as competative, but I can't think of how.
Well given how the all-NC fleets have now been annihilated in the 4 reports that were posted, Whilst fleets that don't trade in all their torps tend to win, I would say that a 1-3 or 1-4 ratio is more competitive.
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Probably. Honestly the NC is a terror weapon, when I play IN I don't use them. I go out of my way to not have one. It's too random and unreliable.
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Heres an issue I personally see in IN fleets. Lots of torps. Lots of novas. Both get stronger the more you add on, and both look really cool on the table. It would be nice if a mixed fleet of what it should be, say, a 1:3 or 1:4 ratio of NC to torps, were just as competative, but I can't think of how.
I see what you did there. Hahah.
Well given how the all-NC fleets have now been annihilated in the 4 reports that were posted, Whilst fleets that don't trade in all their torps tend to win, I would say that a 1-3 or 1-4 ratio is more competitive.
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Probably. Honestly the NC is a terror weapon, when I play IN I don't use them. I go out of my way to not have one. It's too random and unreliable.
Indeed. They scare noobs who don't know how to deal with them (gasp! Potential 6 hits of damage!) and don't have the experience to know that that hardly ever happens. They brace, they go slowly, they don't close fast enough, and they do end up getting annihilated. But any veteran would probably just kill them at close range with torps anyway.
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The 'Geddon List: attempt to drop large amounts of overpriced CB's, which is only possible by running terrible CL's. Oberon is cool, Empy is still better (in *most* opinions).
The Bastion List: will the real Cypra Mundi list please stand up? Solid with the Geddon, Vengance, and classy Mars'. No Oby which is funny, but I guess it is an all comers patrol boat on steroids. This really is the way IN should be run. Vet Captains for some flair. Rarity of Dominators represented by reserving them.
Gothic List: Apparently its the bastion list with less ships, and Seg. Ultima flys a bunch of Dominators through the malestrom to end up at Port Maw, weird in retrospect? yep. But it was the original, saying it needs update is like playing 40k Guard with the 3rd edition codex and saying it needs an update too - it happened, its called the Bastion list.
Ultima list? I've been working on and off on some ideas for this. Its the biggest Seg with the smallest fleet, the oldest ships, and a bunch of nids on their hands. Luckily the boys in blue (baby blue) roll around those parts (the boys in red actually kick it there too, and the boys in yellow iirc). Personally my outlines are fluff based and require *gasp* escorts/CL's. then they rock Lunars and dominators GC's and the increasingly rare 1:4 BB.
anywho, 'nuff ranting.
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Does anyone else think the endeavors should be removed from the obscuras fleet list? This would make the Obscuras list have less bonus ships.
So far Obscuras has 3GCs, 1BB, 1BC, and 3CLs in trade for 1 cruiser. Besides it feels like a voss design ship should sit around Voss.
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I somehow oddly agree.
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So I'm going to include this in flawed ships, basically the only changes will be that the Bastions list won't contain voss cls, and the Armageddon list won't contain RSVs but they will get the Sword per standard. (maybe the cobra too).