Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Tygre on December 27, 2010, 03:59:25 AM
-
Why does the Apocalypse have a 15cm speed?
It is a Retribution class precurser.
It is a Gunboat.
So why the terrible speed.
-
Why indeed!
-
I REALLY did not want to answer this question, but why the hell not.
Lets start with: it says clearly in it's description that the engine systems suffer power issues on the vessel.
Or How about: It's loaded with gigantic weapon systems much greater in power and mass then a Retribution?
or Maybe: Because the standard movement for all Imperial battleships is 15cm, with only two exceptions one of which is fleet specific.
Or because: any faster and it would be impossible to balance.
And just maybe: because the creators of the game hate you.
-
You really sound like a Jackass, there.
-
I would say because of its massive gun in front. No need to rush at the enemy, you want to shoot at him as much as possible with that big nasty gun of yours.
-
Nova cannons are supposed to slow down a vessel considerably. That's the reason they are put on the prow, because the massive kick that they give can be countered by the engines.
Besides, the question you should be asking is 'why is the retribution so fast?'
-
I REALLY did not want to answer this question, but why the hell not.
Lets start with: it says clearly in it's description that the engine systems suffer power issues on the vessel.
Yarp, the class has issues.
Or How about: It's loaded with gigantic weapon systems much greater in power and mass then a Retribution?
This is likely the biggest issue. The power drain of lances being greater than that of comparable strength WBs. Since it has 12 lances and a Nova Cannon, the sacrifice is obviously in its engines.
or Maybe: Because the standard movement for all Imperial battleships is 15cm, with only two exceptions one of which is fleet specific.
This one is unconvincing. The Emperor is slow, probably because there's very little reason to make it fast (it has little comparative power drain from weaponry and no heavy prow armour). The Oberon is based off the Emperor and is likely slow for the same reason. The Despoiler is 20cm, the Desolator is 25cm, the Planet Killer is 20cm. The Retribution is 20cm. So I don't think precedent is the reason.
Or because: any faster and it would be impossible to balance.
Possibly not. The NC means you don't want to close but if you do you get the short range bonus to your broadside (no downside) as well as offside firepower. The long range potential means you don't want speed, but there's a penalty for shooting long and no offside firepower or NC. So if you make it faster it fulfils the first role better than the second. If you make it slow it fulfils the second role better. So it would seem that it'd be fairly easy to balance, just price as you would normally. There's pluses and minuses either way.
And just maybe: because the creators of the game hate you.
By far the most likely reason.
-
It's a combination of two things and the NC doesn't have anything to do with it.
1. It's main weapons of Str 12 lances which cause quite a drain.
2. It's age. The drive and energy systems cannot take the drain caused by the lances because the equipment is basically old.
In any case, it's still a nice battleship but only certain people (like me) like it, both for its fluff and build.
-
2. It's age. The drive and energy systems cannot take the drain caused by the lances because the equipment is basically old.
This is the Imperium we are talking about. Being old makes it better. Doesn't it.
While I do understand that the large lance array does cause a large power drain. I thought that most of that drain was when firing at extended ranges.
And the power consumption for Nova Cannons cannot be too bad, they do not slow down cruisers.
Being based on the Retribution hull (Or other way round) I thought the speed should be higher.
The Desolator class battleship in the Chaos lists has 2/3rds the lances of the Apocalypse at full 60cm range and it also has a speed of 25cm.
The Desolator is old Imperial tech after all.
My main fustration is that if my apocalypse takes a single hit to the shields the blast marker stops me from moving far enough to turn.
I thought that result supposed to be because of firing at long ranges not because I was hit.
Anyway I thought Nova Cannons were new tech and the Apocalypse is old tech. Bit of a contradiction isn't it.
Should the Apocalypse have torpedoes instead and Novacannon as an upgrade.
Personnaly I think that the designers of the Apocalypse were scared that the large lance array would be too powerful so they decided to neutur the ship instead and went too far.
I just wanted to know other peoples opinion about the slow speed.
-
This is the Imperium we are talking about. Being old makes it better. Doesn't it.
He means old as in it has 250,000 miles on it, not as in Golden age of technology old.
-
Yup, literally age and not quality. Also if it were as good as when it first came out, it could fire at up to 60 cm without any penalty. As it is, the energy required to maintain power to the lances (I would expect that like the engines, the AM doesn't really turn the system off), also drains the energy needed to drive the ship.
And people keep forgetting the Special Order Burn Retro. You can use it to turn the ship.
-
And people keep forgetting the Special Order Burn Retro. You can use it to turn the ship.
No you can't. Burn Retros allows you to move less than half your speed. It does not negate the minimum distance needed to travel before it can turn.
The special order to turn more is the Come to a New Heading. Currently this would mean that the Apocalypse would get its first turn at 15cm and its second turn at 30cm.
But that point is moot because Battleships cannot use Come to a New Heading.
Yup, literally age and not quality. Also if it were as good as when it first came out, it could fire at up to 60 cm without any penalty. As it is, the energy required to maintain power to the lances (I would expect that like the engines, the AM doesn't really turn the system off), also drains the energy needed to drive the ship.
Ok the ship may be a bit worn, but isn't that what maintenance is for. I also doubt the lances would have full military power all the time, like most weapons they would be down powered out of combat. I admit that the Lances would have combat power for the entire engagement and that power would have a drain on the system.
But the chaos Desolator class battleship has similar armament, but a 10cm speed advantage.
Does 2 Lances each side drain 10cm of speed from a battleship.
-
And people keep forgetting the Special Order Burn Retro. You can use it to turn the ship.
No you can't. Burn Retros allows you to move less than half your speed. It does not negate the minimum distance needed to travel before it can turn.
The special order to turn more is the Come to a New Heading. Currently this would mean that the Apocalypse would get its first turn at 15cm and its second turn at 30cm.
But that point is moot because Battleships cannot use Come to a New Heading.
Yup, literally age and not quality. Also if it were as good as when it first came out, it could fire at up to 60 cm without any penalty. As it is, the energy required to maintain power to the lances (I would expect that like the engines, the AM doesn't really turn the system off), also drains the energy needed to drive the ship.
Ok the ship may be a bit worn, but isn't that what maintenance is for. I also doubt the lances would have full military power all the time, like most weapons they would be down powered out of combat. I admit that the Lances would have combat power for the entire engagement and that power would have a drain on the system.
But the chaos Desolator class battleship has similar armament, but a 10cm speed advantage.
Does 2 Lances each side drain 10cm of speed from a battleship.
The reason is that the game developers couldn't balance it with just the range drop. After all, if it can move fast, it doesn't matter that it's lances are 30cm. And you are correct about the turning rule.
-
And people keep forgetting the Special Order Burn Retro. You can use it to turn the ship.
No you can't. Burn Retros allows you to move less than half your speed. It does not negate the minimum distance needed to travel before it can turn.
The special order to turn more is the Come to a New Heading. Currently this would mean that the Apocalypse would get its first turn at 15cm and its second turn at 30cm.
But that point is moot because Battleships cannot use Come to a New Heading.
Yup, literally age and not quality. Also if it were as good as when it first came out, it could fire at up to 60 cm without any penalty. As it is, the energy required to maintain power to the lances (I would expect that like the engines, the AM doesn't really turn the system off), also drains the energy needed to drive the ship.
Ok the ship may be a bit worn, but isn't that what maintenance is for. I also doubt the lances would have full military power all the time, like most weapons they would be down powered out of combat. I admit that the Lances would have combat power for the entire engagement and that power would have a drain on the system.
But the chaos Desolator class battleship has similar armament, but a 10cm speed advantage.
Does 2 Lances each side drain 10cm of speed from a battleship.
Someone has to reread the SO Burn Retros, like the part that says turning on the spot.
-
No you can't. Burn Retros allows you to move less than half your speed. It does not negate the minimum distance needed to travel before it can turn.
The special order to turn more is the Come to a New Heading. Currently this would mean that the Apocalypse would get its first turn at 15cm and its second turn at 30cm.
But that point is moot because Battleships cannot use Come to a New Heading.
Who said anything about CTNH? I'm talking about BR. Please read the BR rule on p. 11; BR in grey box, p. 12; BR in grey box on p. 16; and BR in grey box, p. 17. There is a minimum forward move required for a battleship but BR OVERRIDES this.
Ok the ship may be a bit worn, but isn't that what maintenance is for.
And this is where losing tech comes in.
I also doubt the lances would have full military power all the time, like most weapons they would be down powered out of combat. I admit that the Lances would have combat power for the entire engagement and that power would have a drain on the system.
So what? You still have to have power diverted to the capacitors or whatever they call it then even in non-combat situations. Because if they shut it down, they might not be able to start it up again.
But the chaos Desolator class battleship has similar armament, but a 10cm speed advantage.
Does 2 Lances each side drain 10cm of speed from a battleship.
Chaos Desolator is essentially the ship at the prime of its life. Time has no meaning in the Eye. This is why it still performs at that level.
-
Who said anything about CTNH? I'm talking about BR. Please read the BR rule on p. 11; BR in grey box, p. 12; BR in grey box on p. 16; and BR in grey box, p. 17. There is a minimum forward move required for a battleship but BR OVERRIDES this.
I admit, I had forgotten that part too. (usually when I see a BB burn retros it's to avoid a collision with something nasty) It's still only a 45 degree turn though. You'll have to do it twice to bring her abeam.
-
Who said anything about CTNH? I'm talking about BR. Please read the BR rule on p. 11; BR in grey box, p. 12; BR in grey box on p. 16; and BR in grey box, p. 17. There is a minimum forward move required for a battleship but BR OVERRIDES this.
I admit, I had forgotten that part too. (usually when I see a BB burn retros it's to avoid a collision with something nasty) It's still only a 45 degree turn though. You'll have to do it twice to bring her abeam.
Only??? It allows you to turn without moving the min distance before turning (BM's anyone?). Battleships cannot CTNH so turning their 45° on the spot when in contact with BM isn't bad at all.
-
Hey hey,
use Burn Retros lol.
The Apocalypse has 15cm speed because it is funny.
-
Who said anything about CTNH? I'm talking about BR. Please read the BR rule on p. 11; BR in grey box, p. 12; BR in grey box on p. 16; and BR in grey box, p. 17. There is a minimum forward move required for a battleship but BR OVERRIDES this.
I admit, I had forgotten that part too. (usually when I see a BB burn retros it's to avoid a collision with something nasty) It's still only a 45 degree turn though. You'll have to do it twice to bring her abeam.
Only??? It allows you to turn without moving the min distance before turning (BM's anyone?). Battleships cannot CTNH so turning their 45° on the spot when in contact with BM isn't bad at all.
If she doesn't move 5cm she counts as a defense, which means she's a sitting duck for anything in range. Since she's only turned 45 degrees, this means that she probably hasn't brought her broadsides to bare on the target yet.
-
Who said anything about CTNH? I'm talking about BR. Please read the BR rule on p. 11; BR in grey box, p. 12; BR in grey box on p. 16; and BR in grey box, p. 17. There is a minimum forward move required for a battleship but BR OVERRIDES this.
I admit, I had forgotten that part too. (usually when I see a BB burn retros it's to avoid a collision with something nasty) It's still only a 45 degree turn though. You'll have to do it twice to bring her abeam.
Only??? It allows you to turn without moving the min distance before turning (BM's anyone?). Battleships cannot CTNH so turning their 45° on the spot when in contact with BM isn't bad at all.
If she doesn't move 5cm she counts as a defense, which means she's a sitting duck for anything in range. Since she's only turned 45 degrees, this means that she probably hasn't brought her broadsides to bare on the target yet.
1) so BR and move 5cm, then turn. or turn then move 5-15cm.
2) by definition you are never more than 45 degrees away from a broadside arc, so you can always bring those big guns to bear.
the only problem you have is ships circling you and picking on your forward/rear arcs. in this situation, you should have support. if you havent, its your fault really.
-
You can turn then move anyway and anything which can place a BM on the Apoc means that it can shoot back at the shooter unless:
1. It was an NC or Armageddon Gun shot or
2. the shooter is in the rear of the Apocalypse which even then still has the possibility of the shooter getting into the arc of a an Apocalypse doing a 45' turn using BR.