Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Rules Questions => Topic started by: lastspartacus on January 14, 2011, 11:42:20 AM
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Ok, I know that evolution of the hive mind refits arent allowed in one off games.
My question is this, after looking over the points costs of Nids in real detail:
Am I missing something about the Hive Ship? If I'm reading it correctly, you can have a 10 hit wonder with 20 concentrated and shield ignoring lance shots! Or strength 40 pyroacid battery! Am I missing something? Because the amount of weaponry you can pack into this, essentially, factory and control ship, seems insane.
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Ok, I know that evolution of the hive mind refits arent allowed in one off games.
Yeah, they can. "These refits can be incorporated by capital ships or individual escorts except where specifically noted otherwise for the cost indicated." pg 92 of Armada, second paragraph, under the Evolution of the Hive Mind.
My question is this, after looking over the points costs of Nids in real detail:
Am I missing something about the Hive Ship? If I'm reading it correctly, you can have a 10 hit wonder with 20 concentrated and shield ignoring lance shots! Or strength 40 pyroacid battery! Am I missing something? Because the amount of weaponry you can pack into this, essentially, factory and control ship, seems insane.
Alas I don't have my old FAQ files on this computer, so I can't look it up, but I'm fairly sure that the P/S bio-plasma batteries are supposed to read Left/Right, not Front/Left/Right, and this Left/Right represents the respective fire arcs. So each bioplasma discharge would be written as 2L@15cmL+R in forum shorthand. This gives a maximum potential of 6 broadside lances plus the 8 LFR lances of the prow and thorax hardpoints (total focusable = 14).
I'm am less sure regarding the Pyro-acid. They are possibly correct, giving 12 port pyro-acid batteries firing forward, 12 starboard pyro-acid batteries firing forward and the 16 combined pyro-acid batteries firing forward from the prow and thorax hardpoints. Giving a total of 40WB as you said. Otherwise they'd be Left + Right firing like the lances. I believe it is the former though (so 40 batteries forward).
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From FAQ2010:
Tyranids do not have access to any crew skills in the course of a campaign. They may gain refits in the course of a campaign as outlined by the rules on p. 92 of Armada. These refits can only be used in one-off games if both players agree.
Lot of people hate uber-hiveships.
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Yeah, they can. "These refits can be incorporated by capital ships or individual escorts except where specifically noted otherwise for the cost indicated." pg 92 of Armada, second paragraph, under the Evolution of the Hive Mind.
Unless one of the last edits removed it, the 2010FAQ prevents the evolution of the hive mind refits in one of games.
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Wait until you see the real nasty things like escort drones with pyroacid batteries
for 120 Points you get 6 ships with FP24 that would usually do between 2-3 criticals hits and get additional 2-3 fire criticals.
Yes they are slow, but dirt cheap and since the new FAQ are harder to destroy by Aboats, have a shield and move addidtional 2W6 on AAF. And of course you can cover them with carrier-Hives.
And you can have 2 squads of these per hive
=> Tyras are the single most overpowered fleet in the game. Not "broken" like Eldar (where the mechanics don't fit the game) not easy to beat if you change your tactic (like Necrons), simply overpowered: to good profiles for to less points
The Hive with the 14 shield ignoring lances, 14 HP and 6 Shields and full firepower on Special orders for 380 is just the tip of the iceberg....
without refits its only 14 shield ignoring lances wit 10 HP and 4 Shield for 300P, but tis doesn't help much if he can buy 4 of that escorts for the money...
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And this is balanced?
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Balanced? sort of.
Remember, now that nids no longer have super toughness, they are suddenly vulnerable to ordnance, ALSO they have an extremely punishing critical hits table.
Their cruisers are limited, and playing around with only hive ships and escorts can result in a very messy loss. They are also restricted to very short or medium range. They ONLY have assault boats, and slow moving fighters. I would say that they are tough, but balanced. The feeder tentacles and spore damage were the things that really needed a change.
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I just dont understand how a 10 hit ship can have so much more firepower than a Tombship, and be cheaper 0.o
Thats bonkers to me.
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It doesn't. Remember, tombships always count as closing.. hive ships do not. Lets not forget the particle whips which fire at 45, not at 15.. and the portals which now may always be used.
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And this is balanced?
No, it is NOT. This is why I call Tyranids “overpovered†:)
At all I'm very surprised why in this Forum there is no complain about them. I guess it's because no one here has really experience against a “nasty†tyra-player.
Honestly, in the hands of a true Powergamer they simply eat up (;D) any enemy, only Eldar can avoid destruction if the terrain is right (the usually problem...).
The reason for this is, that their disadvantages don't really matter:
* yes their cruisers are just medicore – but you can simply ignore them. You don't have to use crusiers.
* yes they are somewhat slow (15cm) – but is doesn't matter if your main weapons (feeder tenteacles, massive claws) can be used at full effency while on AAF. 4D6+15cm is not slow at all
* yes their flyers are slow – but who cares if you only need them to defend your escorts: send them on CAP and forget the speed
Some examples of nasty Nid ships.
Hives:
- the “S14 Bioplasma†mentioned above – without refits/mutations not so scary as before, but for 300P with 4 Shields an 10 hits still a good deal
- the carrier hive: 10 hits, 4 shields/turrets, 8 flyers and 6 boarding torpedos for 305P. Yes the Tyra ordnance is inferior but with doubled launch limit 1 or 2 of these is all you need to cover your fleet with fighters. All in all one of the most cost-efficent carriers in the game, second only to the Emperor.
- if you want a “ship of the Lineâ€: just ignore the port/starboard weapons (you don't have to buy them) and have an S16 Pyroacid battery @45 cm with F/L/R for 260 Points. Sure, 15cm and no CTNH is a disadvantage, but 4 shields and 10 hits even that more than out.
Cruisers:
just buy 2 sets of massive claws. Thats it. 90 Points.
2 Shields/turrets, six hits. Just AAF all the time (an average speed of 34cm). And kill everything you come in contact with.
* 4D6 in shooting phase. each 4+ is a lost hit point.
* if 2 hit (not uncommon...) you “catch†the ship an can get 1 or 2 additional hits in every End + phase if you hit with 2 (one hit) or all 4 (two hits) dices.
* and you can perform the regular boarding action: given the tyras special rules (double boarding value +2D6 (pick the highest)) and the fact that you'll have inflicted 1-2 hits already you'll win this in most cases. If you manage to concentrate 2-3 of these on a single enemy you'll usually kill every cruiser sized ship in one turn. Not bad for a 90 points ship.
And now for the real nasty things:
- Feeder tentacle Vanguard: 25Points. 90° turns and an average speed of 39cm on AAF. If they fly over something it either gets 1-3 hit& run crits or loses an hit point and gets one hit & run crit. So a squadron of six for 150 points makes ~ 3 hit points damage and 9 criticals. You don't even have to “hitâ€- just fly over your opponent. And don't be afraid to go on BFI if the enemy shoots back: the tentacles are unaffected by it. Only donwside is, that you only have 25cm “range†instead of 39.
- the newes thing: Bioplasma kraken: 35 Points 6+ armour permant 4+ save 25cm speed and a S2@15cm shield-ignoring lance. It it not as hard as other options, but it it is surly one of the better escorts in the game.
- the mentioned Pyroacid escort Drone.
One word: dirt cheap. Yes they are slow (15cm) but who cares with S4 Pyroacid@30cm for 20 points. With AAF you get them in range fast enough. For the price of a Lunar cruiser you get 9 of these Babys for a Firepower of 36 – I repeat 36 - and every crit causes an additional fire crit.
Just protect them with some CAP so that Assault boats don't get them before they are in range and watch your opponent cry. And if you disenage just the last living escort the enemy only gets 25% victory points (in this case :45).
→ Seriously, Nids need a rebalance...
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Thats totally hilarious. Its str20 bioplasma actually. or str40 special guns. Hilarious. I cant believe i missed this joke until now. I was hoping I was misreading. I guess the claws are the only option for the cruisers, as they are for some reason limited from turning their weapons frontward.
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I have played against the terrible nid menace a lot.
Those amazing battleships only have armor 5+, are slow, and are big easy targets. When they die, the synaptic control falls apart. When they are crippled, they can no longer launch ordnance.
When those claw cruisers are crippled, they cannot use their claws, or their feeder tentacles.
The re-balancing of the nids WAS restricting them from using their refits, giving spores one attack only (which used to RUIN eldar players), and making feeder tentacle attacks ONLY effect an enemy if they land base-to-base with their enemy.
Pyroacid batteries are nice, but they are still just batteries, and suffer all the effects of it. Bioplasma? HA! it has a pathetic range. I can destroy every hive ship you have with pyro acid before it gets a single shot in.
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Nids have always been able to use their refits in one-off games. It goes so far as to say so specifically in their rules. The 2010 FAQ has many "flaws", this being merely one of them.
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A flaw?
Many complained about unbeatable nids/hiveships.
With the mutual agreement it is solved neatly.
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A flaw?
Many complained about unbeatable nids/hiveships.
With the mutual agreement it is solved neatly.
I don't think so. A Nid player should be able to turn up to a tournament or a friendly with a fleet that he knows he can use. Nid evolutions should be a standard part of the fleet to give variety and customisation to a fleet that is supposed to have variety and mutation. If it's unbalanced, fix it. Don't leave Nid players at the mercy of some arsehole who says "nah, you can't use 'em", particularly as the RAW say you can and so have previous FAQs. People would have bought and converted fleets on the strength of their customisability. Also, the only problem with the "monstrosity" hive ships was that they were immune to bombers. A problem with the ordnance rules, not with the Hiveships.
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The evolutions of the hive mind are refits. IIRC all other races may only take refits in a campaign not in one of games. The change was to bring nids in line with everyone else. Nid players should know full well what they can and can't do far before a tournament. It's the players responsibility to make sure they review and comply with the rule set listed by the tournament organizers.
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Nids have always been able to use their refits in one-off games. It goes so far as to say so specifically in their rules. The 2010 FAQ has many "flaws", this being merely one of them.
page 92 of Armada:
"This natural adaptation is represented in the Tyranid fleet list in the way that other races have special refits."
Since the other races can use refits only in campaigns (or mutual agreement) this obviously applys here as well. Tailoring any fleet with picked refits will make it overpowered.
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It just doesnt make fluff sense. That a 10 hit ship can pack twice the firepower of a battleship. Using organic matter, at that. Laughable. :)
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I never played with or against Nids. I hope my opponent puts them together soon.
Before that I can only look at them from gathered knowledge and that is that Nids can be nasty, especially in the past with uber Hiveships. But never read or heard about them being broken / too strong.
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I, however, -have- fought against nid players.. MANY of them.
Remember, this is a fantasy setting where organic claws can chomp into super-dense metallic hulls. Also, the only truly reliable weapon systems the nids have are boarding and pyro acid batteries. Everything else shuts down the moment they are crippled.
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page 92 of Armada:
"This natural adaptation is represented in the Tyranid fleet list in the way that other races have special refits."
Since the other races can use refits only in campaigns (or mutual agreement) this obviously applys here as well. Tailoring any fleet with picked refits will make it overpowered.
Nonsense. It is quite clear that this means that these options are what Nids use in place of refits during a campaign, not that these options are restricted to campaigns only. It specifically says they can take them on their capital ships and escorts, without mentioning that this is during a campaign. Therefore they're allowed. To further elucidate, they have a fixed cost (like an option) which is different from normal refits, which cost +10%. These can be selected, whereas normal refits are random. What's more it differentiates between campaign and non-campaign. It says during a campaign you can only gain 1 refit before a battle. If these were normal refits then this would not need to be stated. Lastly, these refits can be placed on escorts, again not normal. There is nothing here that suggests that these options are limited to campaigns. And if they were then the Nid fleet would be very boring.
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by 'boring' you mean 'at an equal level with the other fleets'?
Before it took three parts tactical genius, seven parts luck to defeat a nid player with any other fleet (even necrons)
It goes beyond "change your tactics" or "get better at the game" when they create six shield/turret 14 hit nightmares and have zero restrictions on them. of all the fleets that had the simplest tweaking to bring them in line, the nids reign supreme.
by placing "evolutions of the hive mind require opponent permission" on the 2010 faq, nid players now had to focus on winning games on the same level as everyone else, and probably will not sweep tournaments like they did before.
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Nonsense. It is quite clear that this means that these options are what Nids use in place of refits during a campaign, not that these options are restricted to campaigns only. It specifically says they can take them on their capital ships and escorts, without mentioning that this is during a campaign. Therefore they're allowed. To further elucidate, they have a fixed cost (like an option) which is different from normal refits, which cost +10%. These can be selected, whereas normal refits are random. What's more it differentiates between campaign and non-campaign. It says during a campaign you can only gain 1 refit before a battle. If these were normal refits then this would not need to be stated. Lastly, these refits can be placed on escorts, again not normal. There is nothing here that suggests that these options are limited to campaigns. And if they were then the Nid fleet would be very boring.
That's an interesting rules interpretation but I can't follow your assumptions. When in doubt I always assume that the rules mean what they say, not what this might imply.
Luckily for both of us, this has finally been clarified in the FAQ2010.
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That's an interesting rules interpretation but I can't follow your assumptions. When in doubt I always assume that the rules mean what they say, not what this might imply.
Luckily for both of us, this has finally been clarified in the FAQ2010.
Eh? You make an assumption that Nids can only get these refits in a Campaign. It doesn't say that, it doesn't even imply that.
by 'boring' you mean 'at an equal level with the other fleets'?
Before it took three parts tactical genius, seven parts luck to defeat a nid player with any other fleet (even necrons)
It goes beyond "change your tactics" or "get better at the game" when they create six shield/turret 14 hit nightmares and have zero restrictions on them. of all the fleets that had the simplest tweaking to bring them in line, the nids reign supreme.
by placing "evolutions of the hive mind require opponent permission" on the 2010 faq, nid players now had to focus on winning games on the same level as everyone else, and probably will not sweep tournaments like they did before.
No, I mean boring. The fleet without its refits is terribly boring. The only problem with the Nid super-Hive is its immunity to bombers. This is a problem with the way turrets are able to suppress bomber attack runs though, not a problem with the Nid rules. Of course, there is a tendency among players to min/max. This isn't really a problem except that perhaps the Nids should be a little more diverse. In which case a caveat saying that no 2 HIveships can have the exact same combination of refits. Or limiting the number of uber-hives to 1 per fleet (so only 1 can have 14 hits), etc. This is not really a balance thing, just a representation of variety/supremacy thing (presumably the largest Hiveship would be the one in charge). If further balancing of options is required then that should be discussed. Nids should not lose their character and variety simply because you find it too hard to beat them. I for one can't see how these hive ships would be able to stand up to a Carnage fleet.
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No more boring than any other non-Chaos/IN fleet. It has fewer options. Actually, its alot more customizable than say, DE, Necrons, or Tau.
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Yes, it's extremely boring. Try playing a Nid fleet without the ability to customise your ships with those evolutions. Really very crap. If they were meant for campaign only then why make Hiveships only 10 hits? It'd take forever to refit a hiveship to 14 hits. Pretty stupid having to earn 2 refits just to hit normal BB levels. Also, who's going to give a refit to an escort in a campaign? Why the limitation of only 3 different evolutions? If you can earn more then why not?
The fact is these options were designed for one off games. Campaign use was an afterthought. The Hiveship was made 10 hits base because you could take them up to 14, but it'd cost one of your 3 evolutions as well as points to do it. You can give escorts evolutions because they change the way your fleet plays. All these options are just like the options in the Nid Codex that give +1BS or WS or I or save or whatever. It's so you can construct a fleet to how you want it to play. That was the intent.
If some options are unbalanced just balance them. Don't make the fleet boring.
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If they were balanced, then fine. But having a 14 hit, 6 turret, 6 shield monstrosity with focusable str40 pyro battery and all of the Tyranid close range nastyness, for the price of an Emperor battleship. Well thats laughably broken.
The way the nid rules are laid out are contradictory and crap, so there may be some confusion. Perhaps it means there is str4 Front for the whole of the strbrd/prt, not 4 on each side, or perhaps its 1 bioplasma per side rather than one, though the bays do it the opposite way. Really no way of knowing, friggin document.
Edit: They have 10 hits because thats standard for a nid hiveship. The model agrees.
(noticed an error, gives cost of torps for hive ship, but no torp option listed in profile.)
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Sig, i fail to see the merits of your arguement since they have little problem customizing their weapons.
If you wanna play with the campaign upgrades, play a campaign and earn them.
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I'm with Sig here, tyranids should be playable with their evolutions. I've never met a tyranid player who didn't use them in every game, or anyone who ever said they shouldn't.
IN/chaos have some refits already included in some of their ship profiles as an option. Such as salvaged targeting arrays, or improved thrusters or whatnot.
I've played against the murderous hive ships a few times. Expensive, slow, short ranged. Sure, there have been quite a few times with orks where I've wiped their entire fleet except the hive ship, and have been sitting around with 3 kroozers wondering what I should do about that hive ship.... but alas, I don't feel the thing is broken. Just... annoying.
Anyone ever hear about the Hiveship list with 3 hiveships at 14 hits and 6 shields winning anything? Bah, no. The Killy is in the escorts.
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Sig, i fail to see the merits of your arguement since they have little problem customizing their weapons.
If you wanna play with the campaign upgrades, play a campaign and earn them.
Customising weapons is just the same as picking different classes of ship. It's not Nidish. Nids come with built-in flaws, such as slow speed and low hits which you can make up for by buying the appropriate evolution. Imagine if they took out all the Nid bio-enhancements from 40k and just left them with the basic profile using the argument "all other races have to use a base profile so why shouldn't the Nids?". Firstly, Nids should be more malleable and secondly if you're going to give them a base profile instead of letting the player adjust as he chooses then you have to give them the right base profile. This would mean making the cruisers 8 hits and the Hiveships 12 hits, as well as adjusting speeds and suchlike.
Yes, Chaos and IN have standard profiles with a little variation (Targeting Matrix here, extra turret there, here some range, there some a-boats, etc). Nids should not be bound in this way. They are individual creatures that evolve rapidly to suit the situation and so have a myriad different possibilities. This was of course realised by the creators of the ruleset. Which is why they have the option to pick Evolutions.
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Normally sig, i would agree with you, but with all the standard glitter that the nids get right off the bat, I just can't support letting them have access to campaign refits.
How about turrets that can fire at all kinds of ordnance? and force a blast marker on almost any opponent they touch? (this used to murder eldar escorts in droves)
or perhaps, feeder tentacles that can cause instant damage and hit-and-runs, ignoring armor?
Giant claws that attack at full strength despite bracing for impact? and getting two attacks a round?
45cm batteries that cause fire crits?
the nids have plenty, and can still take the 90 pt massive claw cruiser.
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None of which is sufficient to encapsulate the Nid feel. What, in principle, is wrong with them having such levels of customisability?
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To me, nothing. As long as its fair.
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I agree with sparticus. However before, it was far from it.
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I don't see what you think is unfair about a 14 hit 6 shield Hive ship. Seems about right to me, and not such a huge threat given the 5+ prow armour and slow speed. I understand an objection to 6 turrets, but this is a problem with the way turrets and bombers interact, not a problem with shooting down 3 ordnance per wave (particularly as BMs reduce the chance to hit to 6+).
As for the rest of the Evolutions, there doesn't seem to be anything terribly unbalanced amongst that lot. So if the only problem is the monster hive ship then that can be balanced by an increase in cost for the Evolution (spores), a restriction on the number of maximised Hive ships and/or ships with identical Evolutions. I don't even think that's necessary myself. Certainly there's no reason to overrule the RAW, destroy the Nids feel and make the fleet more boring and less competitive.
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Cost my friend, its the cost in which they can do it.
Also, I realize that nids are a threat, but accomplishing far more than the finest lost technology battleships is dumb for a biological creature in space.
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I don't see what you think is unfair about a 14 hit 6 shield Hive ship. Seems about right to me, and not such a huge threat given the 5+ prow armour and slow speed
Add a third mutation which allows to fire all weapons on AAF(an average speed of 29cm a round isn't that slow), a broadside of 14 short ranged but shield ignoring lances, point cost of just 380 Points and almost no restriction in the fleet list (except you have to take 6 dirt cheap and powerfull escort drones for 120 points) and you have a huge threat.
Honestly show me any battleship (except the void stalker with enough terrain on the table) or any 2 cruisers for ~400P that really stands a chance against this monster.
In general, I share your point of view: it would have been a lot better to balance the evolutions/the Tyranids as a whole instead of simply forbidding the refits. But if the only both options avaible are (a) forbid them or (b) let them as they are, (a) is IMO the better choice.
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Add a third mutation which allows to fire all weapons on AAF(an average speed of 29cm a round isn't that slow), a broadside of 14 short ranged but shield ignoring lances, point cost of just 380 Points and almost no restriction in the fleet list (except you have to take 6 dirt cheap and powerfull escort drones for 120 points) and you have a huge threat.
Honestly show me any battleship (except the void stalker with enough terrain on the table) or any 2 cruisers for ~400P that really stands a chance against this monster.
Yeah, it's a reasonable ship. However, those lances are only 15cm range and you can't LO if you're on AAF and it is a closing cap ship with 5+ armour and even with AAF it can be slowed to an average of 24cm simply with a BM. Nids have quite a few nice bonuses, but they have their downsides as well. For example, those 14 lances could be ignored simply by putting a single escort closer than the rest of your ships.
In general, I share your point of view: it would have been a lot better to balance the evolutions/the Tyranids as a whole instead of simply forbidding the refits. But if the only both options avaible are (a) forbid them or (b) let them as they are, (a) is IMO the better choice.
In my opinion option (b) is by far the better choice. If there was really a problem of balance then I would have expected it to have been more noticeable, ie, some tournament Nid wins, etc. After all, Hiveships like this would be more powerful in small games, where people would be less likely to have enough firepower to pop them. Also, by the same token, if the upgrades are so unbalanced that something does need to be done there then comes a call to action to actually do something about it. Whereas if the official fix is to make it a "player decision" then the HA will not ever get around to balancing the options.
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Nids steamrolled the last adepticon actually, trashing the long standing tau champion. The issue is that nids are not easy to collect as a fleet, and their citidel minis are expensive and not popular.
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Nids steamrolled the last adepticon actually, trashing the long standing tau champion. The issue is that nids are not easy to collect as a fleet, and their citidel minis are expensive and not popular.
What was the fleet?
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If there was really a problem of balance then I would have expected it to have been more noticeable, ie, some tournament Nid wins, etc
1. How much BFG tournaments do you really know? This game has really a rather small community. It isn't like 40k where you have 80+player tournamnents every weekend. To be honest I've only seen a handfull of BFG tournaments which are more than "the regular group of four friends decided to play competative instead friendly this this weekend".
2. This forum is a microcosmos ;D Don't want to be be offensive, but what happend here is stamped by the opinions of a handful users and their impressions. Some can give reasons for their point of view (you are a example for that), some can't and only think their opinion has influence only because they post a lot. It's isn't really representative. The simple fact that no tyraplayer is here is good hint in this direction. And most I've seen and heard about 'nids is plain simple: played 'hard' they are overpowered. Now the FAQ took away disadvantages (most players I know interpreted the rules in a way that Tyranids always had 2D6 on AAF and Escort drones had only a turret an no shield - and they didn't complained that they were too weak...)
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pot..kettle...black... ;D
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I was a Tyranid player. Unfortunately a lack of opponents forced me to quit playing. :(
As a Tyranid player, I used none of the refits in the back of the list and I still won games. Using no refits is a viable strategy especially considering the number of cheap yet dangerous escorts a fleet may field.