Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: RCgothic on January 28, 2011, 08:18:48 PM
-
This is my idea for the battlefleet of the Urdesh subsector. Urdesh is a forge world in Segmentum Pacificus.
My thinking went along three lines: Torpedo Bombers are awesome, and it should be easier to use more of them, secondly: It would be cool if big ships could squadron with smaller ships as a proper escort, and thirdly: there isn't really a true battlecruiser in BFG (that is to say, battleship level firepower, but less able to take a hit). So without further ado:
Battlefleet Urdesh
BBs:
Retribution class battleship 355pts (linebreaker)
Oberon class battleship 355pts (stand off/carrier)
Repulse class Heavy Battlecruiser 335pts (stand off/linebreaker/carrier)
Vanquisher class Battleship 290pts (cheap linebreaker)
Battlecruisers:
Mars class battlecruiser 270pts (Stand Off/Carrier/Artillery)
Audacious class battlecruiser 235pts (Linebreaker/Stand Off/Light Carrier)
Attacker class battlecruiser 225pts (Linebreaker/Light Carrier)
Cruisers:
Dictator class cruiser 220pts (Carrier/Linebreaker)
Lunar class cruiser 180pts (Linebreaker)
Tyrant class cruiser 180pts (Stand off/Linebreaker)
Light Cruisers:
Endeavour class light cruiser 120pts (Light Cruiser of the Line)
Defiant class light cruiser 110pts (Light Carrier of the Line)
Dauntless class light cruiser (torp only) 110pts (Torpedo Patrol Cruiser)
Escorts:
Sword class Frigate 35pts (Gunship)
Falchion class Frigate 35pts (Dispersive torp gunship)
Viper class missile destroyer 35pts (Missile destroyer)
Cobra class Destroyer 30pts (Light Missile Destroyer)
Iconoclast class Destroyer 25pts (Gunboat)
Special Rules:
Ordnance:
All carriers used in a battlefleet Urdeshi list additionally have torpedo bombers, which are included in their cost. Reserve vessels may take torpedo bombers at +5pts per 2pts of launch bay capacity. Urdeshi carriers used in other lists lose their torpedo bombers and do NOT get a discount for the loss.
Squadrons:
Urdeshi vessels make extensive use of squadrons, which differ in the following respects:
• A squadron may have any composition, and may contain Battleships, Battlecruisers, Cruisers, Light Cruisers and/or escorts.
• The maximum number of vessels in a squadron are 4 capital ships or 6 vessels total, and the minimum number of escorts in a squadron (if any are taken) is 2.
• Every capital ship larger than a Light Cruiser MUST be squadroned with at least one smaller capital ship OR at least 2 escorts, but the composition is otherwise unrestricted.
• Each ship within the squadron has its own leadership (the escorts within a squadron share a leadership value), but the squadron uses the leadership of the largest ship until it is destroyed, then the next largest ship, etc.
• For the purposes of incoming fire, the squadron is targeted as though it is the closest ship within range and fire arc. Damage is distributed to the closest ship within range and fire arc that it can affect.
Examples:
• Repulse with Audacious with Dauntless is a legal squadron, as is Lunar with 2 Swords, but Mars with Dictator is not (lacks a cap ship or 2 escorts smaller than a dictator).
• A Lunar and 2 Swords take fire. The Lunar is closest and closing, resulting in 7 WB dice and 2 Lance Dice. The squadron braces, and before saves the results are are WB(6,6,5,5,5,3,2) and L(6,5). The Lunar takes 4 hits against its 6+ prow (2 from WBs, 2 from lances), whilst the next closest sword takes three hits from the 5s that beat its 5+ armour but not the Lunar’s 6+. After brace saves, the Lunar has saved some of its hits, but the Sword has failed all of its saves and is destroyed – the third hit would carry over onto the second sword, but in this case it is out of range/fire arc and so is unaffected.
Example 1500pt List:
Squadron 1: Repulse class BCH & Dauntless LC + Admiral (495pts)
Squadron 2: Lunar + 2 Cobras (240pts)
Squadron3: Attacker + Defiant + 2 Iconoclasts (385pts)
Squadron4: Endeavour + 2 Iconoclasts (170pts)
Squadron 5: 6 Vipers (210pts)
Repulse class Heavy Battlecruiser
Battleship10 Shield3 Speed 25 Turns45 Armour 6+/5+/4+ Turrets 3
Dorsal lance S2 R60 F/L/R
P/SB WBs FP12 R60 L/R
P/SB LBs S2 F/B/TBs -
Prow Torpedoes S9 30cm F
Audacious class Battlecruiser
Cruiser8 Shield2 Speed 20 Turns45 Armour 6+/5+ Turrets2
Dorsal LB S2 F/B/TBs -
P/SB WBs FP10 R60 L/R
Prow Torps S6 30cm F
Attacker class Battlecruiser
Cruiser8 Shield2 Speed 20 Turns45 Armour 6+/5+ Turrets2
Dorsal LB S2 F/B/TBs -
P/SB WBs FP6 R45 L/R
P/SB Lances S2 R45 L/R
Prow Torps S6 30cm F
-
convince plax to throw your (ours in my mind) squad ideas into his rule re-write.
on another note. audacious ~ overlord. don't like the split hard-points (as the admiral would say) on repulse and attacker...
drop the icono. why no endurance? want a real battlecruiser? the Revelation. as 'geddon is to lunar, the Rev is to the gothic. can't say 6 lances isn't 'ard enough - thats nearly apoc level of umph.
rad idea. this is exactly what we should be doing as a community.
-
Apparently it's RCs job to convince me?
-
Thanks for the feedback!
The fleet is deliberately Lance Poor - this is why not Endurance/Gothic/Revelation/Lance Dauntless. Only the Retribution can focus more than 2 per side. To compensate, you get lots of torpedoes in the form of torpedo bombers - The Audacious/Attacker are Tyrant/Lunar battlecruisers with Launchbays instead of lances.
The Repulse and Squadron rules are what I'd most like feedback on. How would people feel about a 25cm 10hit 3 shield 3 turret battleship with otherwise comparable levels of firepower to true battleships? I was seriously considering giving it 4+ rear armour in addition, or some sort of critical hit rule.
As for the squadron rules, I think I'd revert them to using the rules in the big book - a lone cruiser may be squadroned with an escort squadron, so long as the total number of models in the squadron is not above 4or6/whichever. Capital ships other than those joining escorts must be squadroned with at least one other capital ship.
-
max any squadron with cap ships to 4. good plan. fits my 1 CR/3 ES idea posted in flawed ships.
the repulse would be the first (and only) ever CG with 25cm move. drop it to 20cm. i'd also drop its weapons to 45cm.... otherwise is just a cheaper/lighter unfixed retrobution. conflicted over prow armor w/ torps but 60cm weapons.
still think it would look weird modeling a ship with WB, then 1/2 lances, 1/2 LB modules.... not to mention it doesn't work for my magnets :(
-
It's not supposed to be a grand cruiser though. It's supposed to be a battleship that sacrifices its protection in exchange for speed - this is the true principle of the battlecruiser: Outrun or outgun.
Those that can catch it will wish they hadn't, whilst nothing that seriously threatens it can keep up.
In game terms it has several uses: It can use its speed and long range to scout around if opposition is too heavy for its mere 3 shields, or it can linebreak, using 6+ armour and forward torps if sticking with the line of battle is a better idea. My only concern is that two hitpoints and 1 shield isn't ENOUGH of a sacrifice for speed. Perhaps 2 shields? I also mentioned 4+ rear armour earlier, and perhaps a +1 to all critical hit rolls.
What do you mean, split lances/launch bays? On each side the Repulse has two WB hardpoints and 1 LB hardpoint - three hardpoints total. Works perfectly for magnets. It's based off the Retribution Model, not the Grand Cruisers.
As for the Attacker/Audacious, yes, those will require a bit of converting of their dorsal spine, but it shouldn't be too hard to make it look like a cruiser hull has dorsal hangar openings.
-
Repulse Class Heavy Battlecruiser: 335pts
Battleship/12 Shields2 Speed25cm Turns 45' Armour 6+/5+ Turrets 2
Prow Torps S9 30cm F
P/SB WBs FP12 60cm R/L
P/SB LBs S2 Fighters/Bombers -
Dorsal Lances S2 60cm F/L/R
Special Rules:
May not CTNH. As a battlecruiser, the Repulse sacrifices protection for speed - it suffers critical hits on a 5+ instead of 6+. In addition, rolls on the critical hits chart gain a +1 modifier.
Perhaps that captures the feel better. It's still as bulky and well armed as a battleship, but protective systems have been scrimped on to give it its speed: Only 2 shields and 2 turrets, plus poor damage containment.
-
Fluff time!
Battlefleet Urdesh has at its heart the forge world of Urdesh. Urdesh provided the bulk of the munitions required for the Sabbat Worlds Crusade to retake the Sabbat Worlds from Chaos. Briefly lost to Chaos itself, the forge world was swiftly retaken and continued supplying a steady stream of munitions to the Crusade effort.
Fed by this steady stream of munitions, Battlefleet Urdesh adapted to make heavy use of torpedos - ships were refit to carry torpedo systems, and launch bays to service torpedo bombers.
These tactics proved especially lethal at the battle of Aster's Reach, where the chaos grand cruiser Archon's Fist was pursued by the Dauntless class cruisers Sabbat's Fury and Blue Thunder for ten hours through the gas clouds, and eventually destroyed by repeated torpedo bombardment.
In another incident, the Chaos Battleship Crooked Rapier was lost in orbit of Denit VII after a surprise attack by torpedo bombers from the Dictator class cruiser Silver Glint and its Firedagger class escorts. The Crooked Rapier suffered crippling damage to its engine room and, unable to maintain orbit, it burned up in the swirling atmosphere of the gas giant.
The Chaos forces in the sector were quick to make use of their own advantages - Chaos ships would use their speed to appear seemingly out of nowhere, destroy lone capital ships, and vanish back into the void. Not even escorted cruisers were safe - the Tyrant class cruiser Dorn's Solace was lost during convoy duty when its squadron of Viper class escorts were drawn off by cunning Chaos tactics - a pair of Chaos frigates appeared as though to attack the convoy, and quickly retreated when the defenders made themselves known. Though the Viper squadron pursued and successfully destroyed the intruders, when they returned, Dorn's Solace and the convoy were no more than an expanding cloud of flaming debris, and an unidentified Carnage class cruiser slinking away.
To compound the problem, in spite of Imperial numerical superiority, Chaos intelligence always seemed to be two steps ahead of the Imperials, and for a time it seemed that any capital in the entire fleet left alone for more than a few hours would be ambushed and destroyed. Fleet HQ suspected a spy, but the incidents continued even after the entire fleet operations staff were executed and replaced, and no spy was ever found.
With no end to the incidents in sight, it was decreed no capital ship should ever be without an escort. Even after the Crusade, this decree was never repealed. Fleet HQ also petitioned the Forge World of Urdesh to refit more of their ships to battlecruiser status - it was hoped that if more ships that were deadlier than they looked, more raids could be foiled.
These tactics worked, although at cost - with the necessity of close escort, the Imperial fleet could be in fewer places at once, and raids against civilian targets intensified. Nevertheless, with Imperial losses were reduced, and the Crusade went on to acheive ultimate victory.
In the aftermath of the Crusade the Chaos fleet was scattered. Nevertheless, the raids continued, and it was found that Imperial vessels - even the newly refit battlecruisers - just did not have the speed required to bring the elusive Chaos forces to battle. Those lighter vessels that could catch the Chaos ships inevitably found themselves horribly outgunned. What was needed was a new type of vessel, one that could keep pace with the chaos vessels and obliterate them in a fight, and thus and that could operate free from the neccessity of an escort. Fleet HQ once more pettitioned the tech priests of Urdesh for help.
Thus was the Repulse Class Heavy Battlecruiser born. The first of the class, named Repulse after its intended function on the Chaos raiders, was converted from one of the fleet's successful Retribution class battleships - Bulkheads and shield generators were stripped out to make way for enlarged engine spaces, whilst heavy armoured turrets were stripped out to lighten the ship, reducing its dorsal lance battery to 2 and leaving the ship worryingly undefended against ordnance. It was also decided to strip out 1/3 of the ship's macrocannon batteries, replacing their heavy, armoured casemates and internal macrocannon magazines and replace them with launch bays - which were significantly lighter. Torpedoes for the Torpedo Bombers, though smaller than the vessel's main armament, were stored in the forward torpedo magazine, and a rail system was installed for delivery.
The class performed excellently in service and Fleet HQ soon ordered three more.
In M41.860 Commodore Ryken, captain of the Repulse suffered political embarrassment when, after attempting to engage the Chaos battleship Bone Render, Repulse had to spend six months in dock undergoing repairs. Though excellent against cruisers, the heavy battlecruiser concept couldn't stand up to a real battleship. Commodore Ryken swore both revenge, and to never make the same mistake again. Fourteen years later, Repulse once more found herself confronted with Bone Render. Rather than engage, Repulse shadowed the Chaos battleship for three weeks and even through six warp transitions until a task force could be sent to assist and foul vessel was finally brought to justice.
-
My God RC.
-
Wall of text? Awful?
Anyway, list revision v1.2:
So, list revision v1.2:
Battlefleet Urdesh:
Battleships:
Retribution Class Battleship BB 355pts
Oberon Class Battleship BBV 345pts
Vanquisher Class Battleship BB 290pts
Repulse Class Heavy Battlecruiser BCHV 335pts
Battlecruisers:
Mars Class Battlecruiser BCV 270pts
Audacious Class Battlecruiser BCVL 245pts
Attacker Class Battlecruiser BCVL 235pts
Cruisers:
Dictator Class Cruiser CAV 220pts
Tyrant Class Cruiser CA 180pts
Lunar Class Cruiser CA 180pts
Endeavour Class Light Cruiser CL 120pts
Defiant Class Light Cruiser CVL 105pts
Dauntless Class Light Cruiser (Torp Only) CL 110pts
Escorts:
Cyclone Class Heavy Frigate FFH 50pts
Sword class Frigate FF 35pts
Falchion class Frigate FF 35pts
Viper class missile destroyer DDG 35pts
Cobra class Destroyer DD 30pts
Iconoclast class Destroyer DD 25pts
Fleet Composition:
You may take 1 Battleship for every 3 Cruisers/Battlecruisers in the list. You may take 1 Battlecruiser for every other cruiser in the list. All capital ships, with the exception of Repulse class battlecruisers, MUST be part of a squadron. A single capital ship may join a squadron of escorts, so long as the total number of ships is no greater than 4 - in this case the squadron uses the capital ship's leadership until it is destroyed, even if the escorts' leadership is higher. Squadrons must be picked before leadership is rolled.
Ordnance:
All ships with launch bays additionally carry Torpedo Bombers. This is included in their price. Ships from Battlefleet Urdesh used as reserves in another fleet list lose their torpedo bombers, and they get no discount for this. Repulse and Oberon class ships may take assault boats for +5pts.
Ship Database:
Repulse Class Heavy Battlecruiser
Battleship12 Shields2 Speed25 Turns45 Armour6+/5+ Turrets2
Prow Torpedos S9 30cm F
Port Weapons Batteries FP12 R60cm R
Port Launch Bays Fighters/Bombers All Round
Starboard Weapons Batteries FP12 R60cm L
Starboard Launch Bays Fighters/Bombers All Round
Dorsal Lances S2 R60cm F/L/R
Special Rules:
May not CTNH. Gains +1D6 on AAF. Suffers Critical Hits on a D6 Roll of 5+. All rolls on the critical hit chart gain a +1 Modifier.
Audacious Class Battlecruiser
Cruiser8 Shields2 Speed20 Turns45 Armour6+/5+ Turrets2
Prow Torpedoes S6 30cm F
Port Weapons Battery FP12 R60cm R
Starboard Weapons Battery FP12 R60cm L
Dorsal Launch Bay Fighters/Bombers All Round
Attacker Class Battlecruiser
Cruiser8 Shields2 Speed20 Turns45 Armour6+/5+ Turrets2
Prow Torpedoes S6 30cm F
Port Weapons Battery FP6 R45cm R
Port Lance Battery S2 R45cm R
Starboard Weapons Battery FP6 R45cm L
Starboard Lance Battery S2 R45cm L
Dorsal Launch Bay Fighters/Bombers All Round
Cyclone Class Heavy Frigate
Escort2 Shields1 Speed25 Turns90 Armour5+ Turrets2
Prow Torpedoes S2 30cm F
Dorsal Weapons Battery FP4 30cm F/L/R
Port Weapons Battery FP2 30cm R
Starboard Weapons Battery FP2 30cm L
Optional:
A Cyclone class Heavy Frigate may replace its prow torpedo launcher with a S1 Launch Bay for +5pts.
New Escort! What does everyone think?
-
Awful, and... Invincible class, anyone?
-
And put in a more constructive manner?
I prefer the Repulse class as I've written it to the Invinvible Class. For one, I just prefer the weapons loadout. 8 hits on a battleship hull is too few, and I prefer the special rules the way I've written them also.
-
And put in a more constructive manner?
I prefer the Repulse class as I've written it to the Invinvible Class. For one, I just prefer the weapons loadout. 8 hits on a battleship hull is too few, and I prefer the special rules the way I've written them also.
Ok, first, to avoid confusion, I'd rename the firedagger, as it doesn't really resemble the existing class.
Second:Fluff should never be about how awesome your ship is unless the ship is a sentient character. Divine Right is awesome because Ravensburg Is aboard, not that it isn't a cool ship, but the galaxy apparently overfloweth with Emperor class battleships. It's characters that make fluff interesting. An unnamed arrogant captain feels like just another faceless mook, like the Goblin chieftain you kill as a 1st level fighter. Who was he? No one knows or cares.
-
Fair enough. If the fluff's rubbish, I'll bin it. It did kind of grow out of all proportion anyway. Wasn't aware that there was a firedagger class, will rename it.
Anything else?
-
Rename it the Cyclone, or Ardent, or something else...
-
Hopefully that's the objectionable piece of fluff re-written in a both shorter and more acceptable form.
Do you mean the Repulse, or the Firedagger? Quite like the idea of the Cyclone class Heavy Frigate.
-
List Revision 1.3
Battlefleet Urdesh.
Ship Database:
Repulse Class Heavy Battlecruiser 335pts
Battleship12 Shields2 Speed25 Turns45 Armour6+/5+ Turrets2
Prow Torpedos S9 30cm F
P/S Weapons Batteries FP12 R60cm L/R
P/S Launch Bays S2 per side Fighters/Bombers All Round
Dorsal Lances S2 R60cm F/L/R
Special Rules:
May not CTNH. Gains +1D6 on AAF. Suffers Critical Hits on a D6 Roll of 5+. All rolls on the critical hit chart gain a +1 Modifier.
Audacious Class Battlecruiser 245pts
Cruiser8 Shields2 Speed20 Turns45 Armour6+/5+ Turrets2
Prow Torpedoes S6 30cm F
P/S WBs FP12 R60 L/R
Dorsal Launch Bay S2 Fighters/Bombers All Round
Options:
May purchase a Nova Cannon for +20pts.
Attacker Class Battlecruiser 335pts
Cruiser8 Shields2 Speed20 Turns45 Armour6+/5+ Turrets2
Prow Torpedoes S6 30cm F
P/S WBs FP6 R45cm L/R
P/S Lances S2 R45cm L/R
Dorsal Launch S2 Bay Fighters/Bombers All Round
Options:
May purchase an additional turret for +10pts.
Cyclone Class Heavy Frigate 50pts
Escort2 Shields1 Speed25 Turns90 Armour5+ Turrets2
Prow Torpedoes S2 30cm F
Dorsal Weapons Battery FP4 30cm F/L/R
P/S WBs FP2 R30 L/R
Options:
A Cyclone class Heavy Frigate may replace its prow torpedo launcher with a S1 Launch Bay for +5pts.
Fleet List:
Battleships:
Apocalypse Class Battleship 365pts
Oberon Class Battleship 365pts
Retribution Class Battleship 355pts
Repulse Class Heavy Battlecruiser 335pts
Vanquisher Class Battleship 290pts
Battlecruisers:
Mars Class Battlecruiser 270pts
Dominion Class Battlecruiser 270pts
Audacious Class Battlecruiser 245pts
Attacker Class Battlecruiser 235pts
Cruisers:
Dictator Class Cruiser 220pts
Tyrant Class Cruiser 180pts
Lunar Class Cruiser 180pts
Gothic Class Cruiser 180pts
Endeavour Class Light Cruiser 120pts
Endurance Class Light Cruiser 120pts
Enforcer Class Light Cruiser 115pts
Dauntless Class Light Cruiser 110pts
Defiant Class Light Cruiser 105pts
Siluria Class Light Cruiser 80pts
Escorts:
Cyclone Class Heavy Frigate 50pts
Sword class Frigate 35pts
Falchion class Frigate 35pts
Viper class missile destroyer 35pts
Cobra class Destroyer 30pts
Iconoclast class Destroyer 25pts
Fleet Commanders:
Commodore Ld8 50pts
Rear Admiral Ld9 75pts
Lord Admiral Ld10 100pts
You MUST have a fleet commander. You MAY have as many Commodores as you wish, but if you have more than one you must also have ONE admiral, and you MAY NEVER have more than one admiral.
Fleet Commanders come with one reroll, and may purchase as many as they want for +25pts per reroll. A Commodore’s rerolls may only be used for his ship or squadron, but an Admiral’s may be used for any ship or squadron in the fleet.
So long as no ship within the squadron has failed a special orders check, ships or squadrons with a fleet commander may continue to attempt special orders even after a ship outside the squadron has failed.
Squadroning:
Battlefleet Urdesh has taken significant losses amongst lone capital ships, and morale is low. Any Capital ship that is not part of a squadron, that is the last surviving member of a squadron, or that falls out of formation from its squadron, suffers a -1 ld penalty to all its command checks. The Repulse Class Heavy Battlecruiser is exempt from this rule, as it was purpose built to operate alone.
Fleet Composition:
You MUST take at least one Escort squadron for every TWO Cruisers/Light Cruisers in the fleet.
You MAY take one Battlecruiser for every TWO Cruisers/Light Cruisers in the fleet.
You MAY take one Battleship/Heavy Battlecruiser for every Battlecruiser in the fleet.
Ordnance:
All ships with launch bays additionally carry Torpedo Bombers. This is included in their price. Ships from Battlefleet Urdesh used as reserves in another fleet list lose their torpedo bombers, and they get no discount for this. Repulse and Oberon class ships may take assault boats for +5pts.
-
So this list is a little bit reworked.
I lifted the restriction on ships with lances, so the Apocalypse, Dominion, Gothic, Endurance and Lance Dauntless are back in. I had a slight tweak of points, but the main differences are in the list composition, squadroning and fleet commanders.
Fleet commanders are a new addition. They're compulsory, and they give bonuses to Squadrons. I'm tempted to make the Commodores no leadership bonus, but still the squadron reroll and squadron orders for 30pts total. The others would remain the same.
Squadroning: Thought the MUST Squadron was a little harsh, and also restrictive on choices, so I binned that. Now there's just -1ld if you choose not to.
Composition: Instead of 1:3 on battleships and 1:1 on battlecruisers, I decided to try a different tack. For every two cruisers you buy, you must have at least 1 Escort squadron. 7 cruisers? That will be 3 escort squadrons thanks. This could also be worded: You may buy 2 cruisers for every escort squadron in the fleet. That would be slightly more restrictive, as you'd need 4 escort squadrons to get 7 cruisers. The difference is whether it's rounded up or not. Basically, I think people should be encouraged to take escorts, because escorts are awesome.
Battlecruisers are on a 1:2 basis with cruisers, which means they're also on a 1:1 basis with escorts as well - slightly more restrictive than the standard fleet lists.
Battleships are on a 1:1 basis with Battlecruisers, which means you need 1 battlecruiser, 2 cruisers, and 1 escort squadron before you can take one. That's quite a bit more restrictive than the standard fleet list, but in a way it's required because of the cheaper price - If a Commodore were 30pts, then you could get 2 Vanquishers, 2 Attackers, 4 Silurias and 2x2 Iconoclasts into 1500pts.
Comments?
-
No comments/ideas?
-
Sorry RC, you seem to be suffering a bit of Lastspartacus' problem with his RS ruleset.
-
Do you have any thoughts/comments?
I bet if I proposed it for inclusion in BFG:R it would get comments! :D
-
Lol. Yeah... I can't include every idea. At least not immediately. After a year or so we should be looking for a 'new' location for a book.
Unfortunately I find BaronI's idea more interesting, and it was already proposed by Zelnik a while back. Even with his massive insanity he does occasionally have good ideas.