Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: fracas on June 02, 2009, 12:08:06 PM
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any chance for a Dark Eldar Battleship?
while it may seem incongruent to their background, i don't believe this is true given even corsair eldars have a battleship
and i think they are the only major fleet without one
shouldn't all fleets have one as a centerpiece sort to speak?
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Craftworld Eldar don't have a battleship as well. Aside of that I don't forsee a GW model in the next fifty years to be honest.
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IMO what is incongruent (nice word by the way) is that Corsair Eldar have a battleship not that Dark Eldar don't.
If anything what the DEs need is a light cruiser.
I find that, due to the speed and manoeuvrability of the DEs, they don’t have much trouble avoiding battleships and don’t need anything to go toe to toe with one.
Get in, hit hard run away.
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The Craftworld Eldar really should have a BB! I'm open to converting a Void Dragon into something bigger, or just being lazy and just giving it BB status! ;D
The Corsairs on the other hand got one of the best looking models in the entire range with one of the most aggressive profiles. Actually If I were rewritting the Eldar the CWE would get a Voidstalker as a BB choice and the EC would get it as they do now but a 0-1 choice with the prince aboard.
DE on the other hand I can't see them having BB's unless it were a chartacter ship (where you needed your oponents permision).
Cheers,
RayB HA
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craftworld's BB = the craftworld itself?
i don't anticipate SG putting out a DE BB
just want to get the community sense of things
and whether house rules has been made for such a craft
or what such a craft should be like
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Admiral d'Artagnan is building a DE battleship. With funky rules.
A Craftworld itself is much too big.
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A Craftworld would be terrain! :)
I can't really see why the DE would ever go so far as to make a BB! Maybe a GC (which is called a BB by the DE ;))
Cheers,
RayB
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Why not? If only to upstage their cousins' (pweh!) version of a battleship (pooh! pooh!). Aside from which those battleships could have been leftovers from the old days when Eldar were still one race.
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I still can't see them coming together to make something as massive as a BB for a Raiding fleet. It's not as if they get involved in full blown wars beyond acting as highly paid or opportunistic mercs!
However a prefall BB sounds awesome! This would have to be a character ship though due to its rarity and power! Also it wouldn't function in the same way as a normal DE cap ship, it would be a freak in the fleet!
Any ideas on a prefall Eldar BB?
I doubt it would be fast judging by the blackstone fortresses.
Super armour (wraithbone).
Numerous shields (maybe even shields with saves).
Warp Cannons or similar.
Hmmmmm...
Cheers,
RayB
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Made one already. It's at Port Maw and the old SG site. Sadistic I called it. And yes, it is fast.
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Admiral, a link to you BB?
i understand that what DE does is mostly raiding (as does the Corsairs)
but the DE have all the more reason to battle than do the Corsairs, especially against the craftworlds.
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I don't agree.
Only in the most dire circumstances Corsair-Craftworld-Dark Eldar would fight against each other.
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Made one already. It's at Port Maw and the old SG site. Sadistic I called it. And yes, it is fast.
Can you post a link? I've tried searching through Port Maw but there's just so much Eldar! :)
Also another thing to keep in mind is that the DE don't have bonesingers, so I would imagine the Wraith bone to be almost cancerous, or over grown. (Maybe even spikey ;))
Cheers,
RayB
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Sadistic (http://portmaw.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?9326.post)
At least I think this is the latest incarnation. LOL! It's been a while and it's an on-off thing. There's no pic yet but there is a model already. Another on-off thing. LOL! :D I'll take a pic and post it up over the weekend.
PS: I found it using the Port Maw Search Engine immediately. Used "Sadistic" as the keyword.
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I must have tried everything but the name of the ship! ::)
Sounds cool. Call it a GC! :D
I've got a number of Blackstone conversions, I'll see if there is anything useable as a pre-fall BB.
Cheers,
RayB
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I don't agree.
Only in the most dire circumstances Corsair-Craftworld-Dark Eldar would fight against each other.
the fluff in the books would say eldar on eldar actions occurs
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the fluff in the books would say eldar on eldar actions occurs
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This is true, even CE on CE! But DE would never commit to a full blown war with an Eldar Craftworld, what would be the point? Skirmishes in a pirating fashion is all the DE really want to do. They prey on the 'weak', I doubt if they had to have a BB in a fight they were fighting someone weak. ;)
Cheers,
RayB
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I would. Makes the weak even more weaker. ;)
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I don't agree.
Only in the most dire circumstances Corsair-Craftworld-Dark Eldar would fight against each other.
From BFG:Armada, page 51
"I met them once as saviour, when aboard the Deominius. Crippled and drifting, prey to the Wolfpacks they came from nowhere and drove out attackers away for reasons I could not, and cannot begin to comprehend. They come to me a second as a mystery, aboard the Eoppus, when first we battled them, only to watch as more of the same damned aliens arrived and tore the first apart. And, as I always feared having watched their madness that is their every act, I meed them again as my doom, for even now I watch as the Eldar strafe my flanks and hide from my guns ...." Captain Lucien of the Spirit of Onar, before its destruction by the Eldar at the Battle of Caldera.
i have seen other references to eldar on eldar actions.
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Fracas, no one has said the Eldar don't fight one another only that it is very rare.
The DE are not on some crusade to wipe out their Craftworld Kin. They are selfish, materialistic freelancers only getting involved in larger conflicts when the reward is high enough. Killing Eldar isn't a reward it's a bonus!
Cheers,
RayB HA
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i would think DE offering of CE souls to Slaanesh would be far more fetching than monkeigh souls.
but back to original topic
even if it isn't to fight other eldars, De would benefit from a BB to enforce the cabal dominations rather than just raid
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The DE aren't 'Chaos' Eldar, thier driving force isn't to sacrifice to Slaanesh.
Anyways, given that the DE only protect thier webway portals and webway 'colonies' a BB doesn't really seem flexible enough. BB's are there to lead a fleet, not to defend.
Cheers,
RayB
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Battleships are not necessarily there to lead. There have been instances in real life where Battleships were doing convoy escort duties (English Battleships come to mind, Rodney if I am not mistaken is an example). Battleships have also been used as raiders as evidenced by the Bismarck and the small battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and the pocket battleships Admiral Graf Spee, Admiral Scheer and Lutzow (formerly Deutschland). In the pacific, BBs were mainly relegated to Anti-Aircraft duties and it was the carrier forces which were mainly leading.
So I feel Dark Eldar can have their Battleship equivalents. Probably not as many so they only appear in the bigger pointage games. But they should be available nonetheless.
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Read the Oberon and Despoiler entries... long range patrols on their own or with few escorts.
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“Battleships have also been used as raiders as evidenced by the Bismarck and the small battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and the pocket battleships Admiral Graf Spee, Admiral Scheer and Lutzow"
But not used successfully, Bismarck, Tirpits, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau sank very few merchant ships. The "Pocket Battleships" were no such thing, originally classed as "Armoured Ships" and later "Heavy Cruisers" the "Pocket Battleship" nomenclature was just allied propaganda, and they sank a lot less merchant ships than U-boats or auxiliary cruisers anyway.
I still say that DE do not need a BB and it's inclusion goes well against the fluff.
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If a DE BB was designed for defence why not simply make a space station similar to a spire! Actually with the limitations of larger ships travelling through the webway a BB would only be able to defend the larger portals.
For a race as dependant on webway travel as the Eldar, BB’s seem like a really crazy option. They can travel through the warp but it seems like a huge risk for an unnecessary ship.
The Voidstalker kicks ass but only because of its additional range and fire arcs. If actually targeted a Voidstalker will crumple like paper like any other Eldar cap ship, the only difference is that it will suffer more crits on its way down.
Cheers,
RayB
**Rant**
BFG is a naval game but I would have to say (for the most part) that its theme was pre 20th century (broadsides and all that). In any case in our naval history BB's are kind of obsolete being inefficient and quite vulnerable. The development of ship killing weaponry over defence became quite overwhelming not to mention the lack of any role for a BB as aircraft replace the need for long range guns.
Anyways back to BFG! BB’s will patrol with a hand full of escorts or what not but I’m inclined to imagine this as the exception or even part of an escalating engagement. BB’s aren’t used for defence, they are defended!
However there are exceptions, I would say that fleet carriers are primarily defensive as they can hold position pouring out attack craft from a distance (in my mind these aren’t true BB’s though).
**I’m really sorry for ranting**
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But not used successfully, Bismarck, Tirpits, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau sank very few merchant ships.
Regardless, they were used in such roles. That is the point. Bismarck may not have sunk merchant ships but Scharnhorst and Gneisenau certainly did. Tonnage was around 115,000 tons for 22 ships. Not as much as U Boats but sink them they did and it was more Hitler's unfamiliarity with Navy operations, being a control freak in not giving his Navy the freedom to do their operations and worry about losing ships that minimized the danger rather than the Royal Navy itself.
The "Pocket Battleships" were no such thing, originally classed as "Armoured Ships" and later "Heavy Cruisers" the "Pocket Battleship" nomenclature was just allied propaganda, and they sank a lot less merchant ships than U-boats or auxiliary cruisers anyway.
At the era then, ships were classified by gun size than hull size. 11 inch guns were still classified as battleship weaponry and the heaviest of cruisers never went beyond 8". Hence they can still be considered battleships. Still quite effective at sinking ships, especially merchant hulls. Again, the fact that they did use them is more important here.
I still say that DE do not need a BB and it's inclusion goes well against the fluff.
What fluff? If that's your reason, then Eldar shouldn't get their Void Stalkers. They're as much a corsair fleet as their DE counterpart. Even the craftworld Eldar. They already are in the twilight of their existence. They basically hide and do that hit and runs. They do not need battleship scale ships in that case.
The question is this: if the DE's weak and sissy Eldar kin can have a battleship, why shouldn't the DE, who are vain enough to know they are their Eldar kins' betters, not have one of their own. If anything, their envy would make sure they have one for themselves.
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If a DE BB was designed for defence why not simply make a space station similar to a spire! Actually with the limitations of larger ships travelling through the webway a BB would only be able to defend the larger portals.
For a race as dependant on webway travel as the Eldar, BB’s seem like a really crazy option. They can travel through the warp but it seems like a huge risk for an unnecessary ship.
If that's your reasoning, then get rid of the Eldar Void Stalker. Same reasoning as above. What's good for the gander must be good for the goose. They're both one race with differing political beliefs but I do not believe those differences are enough to extend to ship types. As I mentioned in the post above, envy is enough reason for DE to have one since their cousins do have one.
The Voidstalker kicks ass but only because of its additional range and fire arcs. If actually targeted a Voidstalker will crumple like paper like any other Eldar cap ship, the only difference is that it will suffer more crits on its way down.
Cheers,
RayB
It's not DE's fault if they build sturdier ships than their Eldar cousins.
**Rant**
BFG is a naval game but I would have to say (for the most part) that its theme was pre 20th century (broadsides and all that). In any case in our naval history BB's are kind of obsolete being inefficient and quite vulnerable. The development of ship killing weaponry over defence became quite overwhelming not to mention the lack of any role for a BB as aircraft replace the need for long range guns.
True but I rather think development of ship survivability fell by the wayside. Ship designers were thinking cost rather than actually making the ships survive such ship killing weaponry. And until such a time that a ship bristling with heavy and light missile weaponry comes into existence, battleships will lack roles. In theory, such a ship can exist. Instead of turrets with guns, they would have a huge missile locker with heavy protection from missile hits itself. The Kirov was the closest thing to come to it.
Anyways back to BFG! BB’s will patrol with a hand full of escorts or what not but I’m inclined to imagine this as the exception or even part of an escalating engagement. BB’s aren’t used for defence, they are defended!
However there are exceptions, I would say that fleet carriers are primarily defensive as they can hold position pouring out attack craft from a distance (in my mind these aren’t true BB’s though).
**I’m really sorry for ranting**
Well in space, a raider battleship wouldn't worry too much about attack craft anyway. It's just too big. No race can patrol that much volume in space unlike planetside where you have a finite area of operations. So I believe in space, the doctrine would be different and battleships, especially raiding battleships, would be very effective since they can choose the manner of their operations on when and where to strike unlike those tied to a fleet infrastructure. DE would excel at this.
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of the three eldar factions in BFG, i think fluffwise in descending order Craftworld, Dark Eldar, then Corsairs would need a BB. Yet it is the Corsairs that has a BB and none other.
btw, I know DE are not Chaos Eldars, but they do, at least in the older fluff, sacrifice souls and slaves to Slaaneesh
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Admiral_d_Artagnan,
The Voidstalker is penalised for its size by only being available in large raiding fleets. This represents its restricted access of the webway, it's rarity and more obviously helps balance the damned thing!
CE are far more likely to build BB's than DE and they only have a few Voidstalkers, which always end up in the hands of pirates! ::)
I personally would like to see the EC and CE being represented in a similar manner to that of Ork Pirates and the Waaaagh list. Basically adding new classes and making them act like a normal fleet!
DE on the other hand can only really be a Raiding fleet. They don't secure territory (well, nothing like a system or subsector!) and they don't hang around in hard to thrive systems.
A DE GC (similar to the void dragon) would be a much welcome addition to the DE list, but nothing bigger! The pre-fall BB idea is still awesome but as I mentioned before it would have to be a character ship.
Cheers,
RayB
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fracas,
The DE fluff to be fair is incomplete and scattered across rulebooks and even studio written novels. Their relationship with Slaanesh is one of fear, most DE don't worship Slaanesh or offer sacrifice. In fact it apears that some DE 'consume' the souls of others, this could just be ritualistic but it sounds a pretty cool! ;D
Cheers,
RayB
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Admiral_d_Artagnan,
The Voidstalker is penalised for its size by only being available in large raiding fleets. This represents its restricted access of the webway, it's rarity and more obviously helps balance the damned thing!
CE are far more likely to build BB's than DE and they only have a few Voidstalkers, which always end up in the hands of pirates! ::)
Why would CE be far more likely to build BBs than DE? Any reason you give will most likely apply to their cousins as well. Also, availability in 1000 points in game terms does not make the VS rare.
I personally would like to see the EC and CE being represented in a similar manner to that of Ork Pirates and the Waaaagh list. Basically adding new classes and making them act like a normal fleet!
DE on the other hand can only really be a Raiding fleet. They don't secure territory (well, nothing like a system or subsector!) and they don't hang around in hard to thrive systems.
And Eldar secure territory well? Not likely. If they did then they wouldn't be skulking around avoiding the monkeighs now would they?
A DE GC (similar to the void dragon) would be a much welcome addition to the DE list, but nothing bigger! The pre-fall BB idea is still awesome but as I mentioned before it would have to be a character ship.
Cheers,
RayB
I disagree. Anything their cousins have, they should have as well. If they're really just a raider fleet, then they and the CE should jsut be limited to escorts and light cruisers all the way.
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At the era then, ships were classified by gun size than hull size. 11 inch guns were still classified as battleship weaponry and the heaviest of cruisers never went beyond 8". Hence they can still be considered battleships.
The twenties and early thirties (Deutschland was laid down 1929 and comissioned 1933) were the era of the Washington Treaty, i.e. ships were classified by hull size and gun size. The Treaty navies were only allowed a certain number of cruiser hulls, and only a smaller number of those were actually allowed to use 8" guns, the rest had to use 6" guns at max.
The point is: The German Reichsmarine was not a Washington Treaty navy at all. The German navy, as nearly everything else in Germany at the time, was limited by the Treaty of Versailles; in short the Reichsmarine wasn't allowed to develop new weapon systems and couldn't have ships larger than 10,000 ts.
The Deutschland class was planned as something like battleships though; at least the ships used the hull letters A, B and C for battleships while being built. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were hulls D and E, Bismarck was F, Tirpitz G, the six improved battleships of Plan Z (so called 'H-class') were H through N (there was no I) and the three battlecruisers of Plan Z would have been O, P and Q.
True but I rather think development of ship survivability fell by the wayside. Ship designers were thinking cost rather than actually making the ships survive such ship killing weaponry.
Think about the German studies on battleship survivability that culminated in the (purely hypothetical) Schlachtschiff 1944 (or H-44): A battleship so heavily armoured that it just might survive bomb hits to the deck. To be able to carry this amount of armour while still being useful (i.e. somewhat fast and manouverable) the ships would have had to be enormous: About 360 meters in length, 50 meters beam, draft just short of 14 meters and up to 130,000 tons of displacement.
Survivability fell by the wayside because it would simply not have been reasonable to build a ship able to withstand these weapons; cost is just a part of this.
@topic:
First of all we should look at the reason why any navy uses warships of differing sizes:
- Escorts, i.e. destroyers and frigates, are just that: Escort ships. Fast and manouverable, but hardly self-sufficient, they protect the heavy hitters from anything that is able to use their lacking manouverability against them.
- Cruisers are scouting vessels. They have speed and range on their side to pinpoint the enemy's location, but are able to take out enemy cruisers and escort ships if necessary; nowhere near the fighting and standing power of battleships, of course, because that's just not what they're built for.
- Battleships are heavy hitters, and the means by which any 'government' is able to project its power outward of its area of influence. Slow and cumbersome, but much more able to dish it out and take it than any other class of warship. Useless without scouts and escorts, though, and prohibitively expensive to build and maintain.
So, do the Dark Eldar need battleships? Do they need warships that are fearsome enough to discourage potential enemies from challenging them by their presence alone? Do they need warships able to take on the battleships of other powers one-on-one? Do they need warships that only come into their own in full sized fleet engagements?
I guess not.
What about the other Eldar factions?
Do the Craftworld Eldar need battleships?
The craftworld fleets are there to protect the craftworld from enemy attacks. Seeing that the location of the craftworlds is more or less secret as well as changing constantly protecting the craftworld mostly amounts to clearing its path of dangerous stuff (debris, space hulks, the like) and acting as the scalpel cutting away at the threads of fate wielded by the Farseers.
Would they need battleships for this? IMHO they would need them rarely enough to at least make the effort of building and maintaining them a doubtful one. The Eldar being a dying race and a battleship needing thousands of crew members that would be at risk of losing their lives from the loss of one ship doesn't make it better.
Do the Eldar Corsairs need battleships?
Seeing that they are corsairs, i.e. raiders similar to the Dark Eldar, it makes you wonder what they would want with a battleship, right?
Now, try to look at it through the eyes of a Farseer: The future might hold the need for fleet engagements (disabling a battlefleet heading for the craftworld being the most obvious possibility). But you loathe the prospect of sending thousands upon thousands of Eldar from your craftworld to their death, even if you know it might be necessary. The alternative, of course, would be to send someone else; preferably someone capable (so non-Eldar are out of the question), but expendable. Someone who would happily die to save your craftworld, but whose demise would not be mourned.
Someone coming to mind? ;)
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The twenties and early thirties (Deutschland was laid down 1929 and comissioned 1933) were the era of the Washington Treaty, i.e. ships were classified by hull size and gun size. The Treaty navies were only allowed a certain number of cruiser hulls, and only a smaller number of those were actually allowed to use 8" guns, the rest had to use 6" guns at max.
The point is: The German Reichsmarine was not a Washington Treaty navy at all. The German navy, as nearly everything else in Germany at the time, was limited by the Treaty of Versailles; in short the Reichsmarine wasn't allowed to develop new weapon systems and couldn't have ships larger than 10,000 ts.
You've just proven that battleships, the German ones anyway, were determined by gun size and not hull size.
Think about the German studies on battleship survivability that culminated in the (purely hypothetical) Schlachtschiff 1944 (or H-44): A battleship so heavily armoured that it just might survive bomb hits to the deck. To be able to carry this amount of armour while still being useful (i.e. somewhat fast and manouverable) the ships would have had to be enormous: About 360 meters in length, 50 meters beam, draft just short of 14 meters and up to 130,000 tons of displacement.
Survivability fell by the wayside because it would simply not have been reasonable to build a ship able to withstand these weapons; cost is just a part of this.
But German research at the time was assuming the use of steel, which is the common material for armor. These days, with the advancements in materials research and development, Titanium, Ceramics and carbon based armor offer another alternative which would beat the weight yet offer comparable amount of protection. Cost then becomes the motivating factor here.
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You've just proven that battleships, the German ones anyway, were determined by gun size and not hull size.
The Deutschland class were the largest ships the Germans were allowed to have at the time, so of course they called their successors battleships; the ships themselves were called 'cuirassé' in the Versailles Treaty, which roughly translates to 'Panzerschiff' in German and 'armoured ship' in English. And that is what the class was called in Germany: Panzerschiff.
If the defining trait of German battleships would have been gun size they would either have called both the Deutschland class and the Scharnhorst class the same, i.e. either Panzerschiff or Schlachtschiff (='battleship'), as both used the same caliber in their main armament; in reality the former were called Panzerschiff until they were re-classified as heavy cruisers in 1940 and the latter were called Schlachtschiff from the moment they were laid down for the second time forward.
But German research at the time was assuming the use of steel, which is the common material for armor. These days, with the advancements in materials research and development, Titanium, Ceramics and carbon based armor offer another alternative which would beat the weight yet offer comparable amount of protection. Cost then becomes the motivating factor here.
'Comparable amount of protection' in this case means dubious protection against 5,000 lbs 'Tallboy' bombs. You could get this with less effort today, that's right.
Problem is: Today there is conventional weaponry that is far more destructive than Tallboys were. So you'd need more protection today than you would have needed in the 40s, which would nullify the advantage of today's far more advanced armour materials.
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'Comparable amount of protection' in this case means dubious protection against 5,000 lbs 'Tallboy' bombs. You could get this with less effort today, that's right.
Problem is: Today there is conventional weaponry that is far more destructive than Tallboys were. So you'd need more protection today than you would have needed in the 40s, which would nullify the advantage of today's far more advanced armour materials.
But the problem is there were no tests to confirm whether or not the advantage would be nullified. I would think the armor of the last battleships of the Iowa class would have taken the advent of a missile hit the scale of a Tomahawk or maybe even some of the larger ones carried by the Russians.
As for the Tallboys, the US battleships have enough anti-air defences that the RAF bombers would be toast even before they got to the point where they could drop their bombs. Tallboys are good against stationary targets. Against moving targets which actually shoot back, I think the effectiveness becomes mitigated a lot.
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Admiral_d_Artagnan said
"At the era then, ships were classified by gun size than hull size. 11 inch guns were still classified as battleship weaponry and the heaviest of cruisers never went beyond 8". Hence they can still be considered battleships. Still quite effective at sinking ships, especially merchant hulls. Again, the fact that they did use them is more important here".
I am afraid I don't agree. Costal defense ships and monitors in that era often had 15"-18" guns but no one ever suggested they were battleships.
The Kriegsmarine classification of Panzerschiff, (what the allies called pocket battleship) identified a ship not able to stand in the line of battle.
However, WWII history, although facination is not really overly relevant to a Games Workshop future universe so I will now shut up on the matter.
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For the DE, like the bigger stuff in Epic which the community ran with, the reasoning for a 'bigger' DE ship is that it'd be more of a base than a 'battleship'. It represents a vast amount of resources, but it's still only one ship. In terms of value, it's best hope would be in projecting the Dark Eldar safely at souls far beyond the webway.
In terms of technology and feasibility, I'd really say it's neither here nor there. Fluff-justification could easily be written for or against it, so in terms of expanding ideas I'm keen to go for the 'for' position. In essence it'd be a big mobile city in itself, it wouldn't be risked willy nilly, but to represent in in BFG terms I'd happily permit it thematically as a DE BB. In terms of rules abuse and themes for fleets...? Well, BFG is a bit disjointed at the moment, so I'm happy to simply let it pass if it's a cool model and even only vaguely-alright rules.
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Admiral_d_Artagnan,
CE do 'deny' territory as their craftworld passes through the area. (Note: some how crafworlds move really really really fast if only in normal space, as in faster than light fast, anyone know how?) Also exodite worlds and certain worlds of importance will be protected. Unless Bieltan in which case conquer away!
A DE GC would be an awesomely powerful ship, easily capable of the base function you mentioned. But would benefit from having a small flying base and better manoeuvrability than a BB.
Cheers,
RayB
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Admiral_d_Artagnan,
CE do 'deny' territory as their craftworld passes through the area. (Note: some how crafworlds move really really really fast if only in normal space, as in faster than light fast, anyone know how?) Also exodite worlds and certain worlds of importance will be protected. Unless Bieltan in which case conquer away!
"Deny" is different from "holding" territory.
A DE GC would be an awesomely powerful ship, easily capable of the base function you mentioned. But would benefit from having a small flying base and better manoeuvrability than a BB.
Cheers,
RayB
So make the Void Stalker into a GC. Again, any logic which makes room for the existence of the Void Stalker applies to the Dark Eldar. Maneuverability and a smaller base would have made it much better fit for Eldar as well. The Void Stalker could have easily been created as a GC but no, they made it into a battleship. So DE should have one as well. Really, I do not see any issue here.
What is this? More Eldar loving? Only now it's more specific to plain Eldar? Eldar can have their battleship but the DE can't?
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none of the eldars are interested in "territories" per se enough to maintain battleships.
and xisor is right, the fluff is flexible enough to allow or deny any particular eldar factions with BB
i think the Voidstalker precedence was a bad one. i didn't like it when it first came out and i still think it is awkward. However, since its introduction it has become very popular to field one. thus why should all the fleets have as a centerpiece a BB?
but i do agree that BC fits better with eldars than BB.
down grade the voidstalker
build/add a DE BC.
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Admiral_d_Artagnan: "Deny" is different from "holding" territory.
Indeed it is! In fact that's what makes the CE list quite awkward to represent, it's not really a raiding fleet or a full fleet.
In a campaign Crafworld Eldar shouldn't be able to gain the usual resource points from a world but should be able to take part in ALL of the scenarios. Including both sides of a planetary assault!
With this in mind CE could have a BB at a stretch for these larger fleet engagments.
Then DE could get away with a GC for an extremely successful cabal and EC should only really have cruiser at the largest.
Cheers,
RayB
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Admiral_d_Artagnan: "Deny" is different from "holding" territory.
Indeed it is! In fact that's what makes the CE list quite awkward to represent, it's not really a raiding fleet or a full fleet.
In a campaign Crafworld Eldar shouldn't be able to gain the usual resource points from a world but should be able to take part in ALL of the scenarios. Including both sides of a planetary assault!
With this in mind CE could have a BB at a stretch for these larger fleet engagments.
Then DE could get away with a GC for an extremely successful cabal and EC should only really have cruiser at the largest.
Cheers,
RayB
And DE would need a battleship in case their homeworld is attacked. A battleship is also something a raider can use especially in space since space is so vast that a battleship raider could actually be more efficient than a cruiser raider in that it can stay out longer and raid more shipping as well as bigger shipping and bring back more monkeighs and their sissy cousins in the holding pens on the ship. Bigger experiments and torture labs too.
So it all boils down to this. Since even you admit that the CE can have the VS even at a stretch in larger games (though I never see that happen with the VS being taken in 1k to 1.5k games), the DE should be able to have it too. Whether we like it or not, the VS has opened the bottle and because it exists even if it is contradictory itself, why should we deny the DE their battleship?
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Even the CE? They have crafworlds, the resources and possibly some 'predicted' need for them.
Then DE are the 2nd needy and EC (corsairs) are last.
If you want more labs and holding pens just have more ships! This isn't some combat necessity.
DE defending their homeworld? Commorragh is in the webway, much like the other DE 'colonies', these would have to be a lot easier to defend than a conventional world. In any case the DE would have to band together to make such a ship purely for the extremely unlikely event that they were attacked! And then the ship would be stationed in Commarragh so you wouldn't see it on a BFG board anyway!
A DE GC would be crazy good, a match for most other BB's. It would also have a small base and better turning.
Cheers,
RayB
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Eldar could easily attack their home world in the webway. It's not as if there were no bad blood between them. If they have enough BBs then some could be stationed near Commoragh and the others can go raiding.
Again, you don't want Dark Eldar to have BBs, then knock the Eldar VS down to GC status and I'd be fine with DE only getting the GC. If Eldar has BBs, then DE should have BBs. Again, nothing has been provided which precludes this.
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If you make a mistake with one fleet, then you have to make a mistake with others as well?
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Why? Was the VS a mistake? If it was, then two things:
1. Fix the mistake or
2. Don't fix it.
So which is it?
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from a gaming standpoint, what is wrong with a DE BB?
they should definitely have something to use as their flagship beyond a plain cruiser
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The VS was a mistake because;
a) It clearly didn’t fit with the background and fluff.
b) The Eldar did not need it to be competitive.
c) It’s inclusion altered the balance of the Eldar fleet giving it an unwarranted advantage over some other (but not all) fleets.
d) It removed one of the things that made the Eldar “different†from other fleets.
The most effective way to correct the mistake would, of course, be to remove the VS, but that would be hard on those who have paid out good money for the model so it won’t happen.
However, changing other fleets to give them a BB where, it doesn’t fit with the background and fluff, that don’t need it to be competitive, that would alter the balance of the fleet and would make that fleet less different is clearly not the way to go.
If you want to have everything the same as your opponent play chess.
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The VS was a mistake because;
a) It clearly didn’t fit with the background and fluff.
b) The Eldar did not need it to be competitive.
c) It’s inclusion altered the balance of the Eldar fleet giving it an unwarranted advantage over some other (but not all) fleets.
d) It removed one of the things that made the Eldar “different†from other fleets.
The most effective way to correct the mistake would, of course, be to remove the VS, but that would be hard on those who have paid out good money for the model so it won’t happen.
Still doesn't mean you can't fix it.
However, changing other fleets to give them a BB where, it doesn’t fit with the background and fluff, that don’t need it to be competitive, that would alter the balance of the fleet and would make that fleet less different is clearly not the way to go.
If you want to have everything the same as your opponent play chess.
The problem is the VS does exist and it flies in the face of background and fluff. There is a precedence. One therefore cannot just exclude a race, especially a race that is DIRECTLY related to the race which has the anomaly, just because it doesn't fit the background and fluff when the anomaly clearly doesn't fit the background and fluff of the race which has access to it. That's being unfair. Again, what's good for the gander HAS to be good for the goose. It's not even the case of having the same stuff as my opponent. If the Eldar didn't have the VS or only had a GC at best then I wouldn't go so far as to propose a battleship for either Eldar race and would only make a GC for the DE.
DE doesn't need anything to make it competitive? Somehow, I haven't heard of this.
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The only time that it would matter to a DE player that "the Eldar have a BB" is when the DE are actually fighting against an Eldar force that is using a VS. In any other circumstances the dynamics of the game are not impacted at all.
I can only speak from experience within my group. DE take some time to master, but once you have the hang of them they tend to do fine against anything except certain types of Necron fleets, and pretty much everyone else has the same problem against that fleet.
In our games DE cruisers regularly either get behind Desolators or Retributions and quickly pound them to scrap. Alternativly, if the escorting ships are too strong the DE have a good chance of keeping out the way and attacking stragglers.
DE are by no means invincible as they are and if you roll badly for your holo-fields they can crumple very quickly, but generally we find they hold their own.
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The only time that it would matter to a DE player that "the Eldar have a BB" is when the DE are actually fighting against an Eldar force that is using a VS. In any other circumstances the dynamics of the game are not impacted at all.
If I had a DE fleet, I would prefer to have the option to take a BB than not to have it, regardless of whether my opponent is Eldar or not. Why would it not impact? Ray already makes points about a DE BB being OTT. I disagree but assuming it were to be true, it would definitely impact the dynamics of the game.
I can only speak from experience within my group. DE take some time to master, but once you have the hang of them they tend to do fine against anything except certain types of Necron fleets, and pretty much everyone else has the same problem against that fleet.
In our games DE cruisers regularly either get behind Desolators or Retributions and quickly pound them to scrap. Alternativly, if the escorting ships are too strong the DE have a good chance of keeping out the way and attacking stragglers.
DE are by no means invincible as they are and if you roll badly for your holo-fields they can crumple very quickly, but generally we find they hold their own.
Fine but it still doesn't prove they shouldn't have access to a battleship. As it is, they are the only race in BFG which does not have access to battleships. Eldar is one of the nastiest fleets out there capable of competing without having access to a battleship. Same with Necron. They both have battleships. DE should have one as well.
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In terms of background there is nothing wrong with the Voidstalker! It's casual inclusion in the standard Corsair fleet list is bizarre but at the time there was no Craftworld Eldar list in the works so it was the only place to put it. The Voidstalker belongs in the Craftworld list; in the Gothic War background the Voidstalkers came from a Craftworld not a Corsair pirate base.
DE wouldn't build a BB! At least not as a conventional entry in their fleet list. If there were a DE BB it would be a character ship.
As the DE are a raiding fleet a BB would be over the top anyway! A GC is pushing it but in the interests of having a centre piece model a GC would be pretty cool. And as I've said many times now the added manoeuvrability and the smaller base would be far more suited to a Raiding fleet than a lumbering BB.
Cheers,
RayB
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So fix the VS so it is only included in a CWE list. And even then make it as restrictive as you can make it. As it is, it is readily accessible. I also do not believe the VS would be widely available even in a CWE list. It should be almost as limited as a DE character battleship and only slightly accessible.
I understand your reasoning Ray but until the VS is fixed, then I still stand by my original position regarding a DE battleship.
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originally the orks were also a raiding fleet. then a waaagh fleet list was added with BB and BC.
currently the DE are a raiding fleet. what is wrong with add a war fleet list for DE that also has either a BB or a BC?
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DE would/should NEVER have a full warfleet! Unless their background radically changed.
DE don't do anything other than raid! Also DE have to be the 'smallest' force in the 40K universe it would be crazy for them to conquer even a subsector.
Cheers,
RayB
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They might have the smallest fleet but that doesn't mean they can't have a warfleet, esp if only to defend their homeworld. Remember the DE are a race which are an offshoot (depending on who's point of view, really) of one race. This race were once th pinnacle of civilization which most likely had their own fleets. The splitting of the races would have also undoubtedly split the fleet at least proportionately from the largest ships to the smallest. This includes battleships, Ray, if they existed at the time when the race was at its peak. Regardless of how you believe the DE should operate, logic would say this would be what happened. Similar to the what happened to the Emperor's forces in the Heresy.
Eldar initially didn't do anything but raid. The CWE didn't exist before but somehow BFG designers willed it to existence. Why can't you will a DE fleet similar in context to the CWE fleet but still fitting background fluff?
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The Eldar are a divided and scattered race. You have Craftworld Eldar, which make up the vast majority of the population (official numbers on this don't and shouldn't exist), then you have Exodite Pirates (Corsairs) who to some extent are an extension of the Craftworld Eldar (that's where they originally came from after all), you also have Exodite, Maiden and similar Eldar worlds scattered throughout the Galaxy.
The Dark Eldar are far fewer in number than their less evil kin and are concentrated in the Webway at their 'homeworld' Commarragh and a handful of other webway colonies. The population of the DE come from descendants that survived the fall escaping into the webway and from fallen Exodites.
To feed their needs the DE have raiding fleets, but these fleets are not united they are controlled only by their cabal. You would have to have an extremely strong cabal to have a large raiding fleet. Having a full Warfleet coupled with the resources of holding a sub-sector is beyond a single cabal. If there were an alliance of cabals to undertake such an endeavour the weight of mistrust would undermine any hope of lasting success. In any case there wouldn't be a cabal willing or capable of building a BB on its own, especially as it would limit the fleets ability of travelling through the webway.
A GC for a super powerful cabal I see as being remotely possible. A pre-fall BB character ship I also see as possible.
Cheers,
RayB
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They don't have to build it after the split. The ships most likely would have existed by the time the split happened. The loss of one will be keenly felt etc etc etc but they could and should exist.
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That's what I just said! :P
Pre-Fall BB Character ship! Normal centre piece would be a GC.
Cheers,
RayB
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AH well, the Void Stalker exists only because of that cool Void Stalker which single handdidly took on an Ork hulk.
For me the DE may have a battleship. A fast battleship. Get it?
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That's what I just said! :P
Pre-Fall BB Character ship! Normal centre piece would be a GC.
Cheers,
RayB
No, there is a difference. In your case, you want a pre-fall character battleship. In my case, it is just pre-fall battleship, much like the near- to pre-heresy battleships like the Emperor and Apocalypse which existed at the time the heresy occured. The DE battleships are not in any way character ships and do exist in number albeit in smaller numbers than usual.
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In terms of official background I don't think there have been any DE BB's mentioned. However I can see it as possible if it were a Pre-Fall BB. The reason why it would have to be a Character ship is simply because it would be too good a ship to include in a raiding fleet!
And once again DE should only have a raiding fleet.
Cheers,
Ray Bell
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Again, I don't think it would be too good, especially if you put in limits on how one can be taken. The VS is clearly TOO good AND it exists in what is supposed to be a Corsair fleet which is a raider fleet AND can be included in a 1000 point fleet no less. C'mon Ray, you're reaching here.
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I'm not reaching! I really don't think the Void Stalker should be in the Corsair fleet either!
It's not as if I hate DE or anything, they just shouldn't have a BB in their competetive fleet list.
What's wrong with a GC (or fast/pocket BB..) as a flagship for a Raiding fleet? Seems quite generous!
Cheers,
RayB
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I don't think Ray is reaching here.
The ONLY argument I am hearing for a DE BB is.
"The VS exists (correctly or not) so the DE should have one".
To a certain extent, of course, the whole thing is academic. GW are not going to produce a model or rules for a DE battleship.
Gaming groups can, of course, have their own house rules, they can have DE battleships, space marine grand cruisers, imperial fast cruisers, anything they like but it is never going to be official and useable in tournaments and opponents can always refuse to allow them.
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Every reason Ray and you have provided for DE not to have battleships have not been valid. Yes, I point out the existence of the VS as a reason enough for DEs to have battleships. It doesn't even matter that GW is not providing a model at the moment but that does NOT mean they can't provide a battleship in the future. Orks didn't have battleships before. now they have one. Eldar didn't have battleships before either. Then they were given one. And so I would want DE to get one officially.
What's wrong with the DE getting a GC? Nothing except most likely it has 2 HP less and the weapons will not be as potent as that of a true battleship and it requires DE to use up the same conditions to get it as a battleship. What's wrong with the DE having battleships? For some reason, Ray is giving reasons which are very contradictory. Eldar is already competitive without the VS and yet they still got it. THAT is being VERY generous. So I don't understand what's this competitive stuff or generosity that DE can only have a GC is about. So DE players should be happy they can only get a GC instead of a full fledged battleship while their clearly superior Eldar kin can get one. Now that is one of the most unfair situation I will ever see. You may not hate DE, Ray but I am seeing more of that unreasonable Eldar loving. Why not do this experiment: every point you made about DE not having battleships, replace the term "DE" with "Eldar". Why shouldn't Eldar just have a GC? Eldar should not have a BB in their competitive fleet list. Eldar should not have a full warfleet...and so on and so forth. Works either way.
If you don't think the VS should be in the Eldar Corsair fleet, then fix it and along the way, fix the access to it. As it is, it's too easy to get it in play. You want DE to only have GCs well by then make the VS a GC at best. I keep saying it again and again, what's good for the gander must be good for the goose.
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I don't see much point in continuing this discussion as it is not really going anywhere. The same points are being raised time and time again
If GW ever do bring out a DE BB then I will happily allow my opponent to use it if they want. I won't be having one in my DE fleet however. Until that happy (or unhappy depending on your point of view) day however, I rest content with it's absence.
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The Dark Eldar are far fewer in number than their less evil kin and are concentrated in the Webway at their 'homeworld' Commarragh and a handful of other webway colonies. The population of the DE come from descendants that survived the fall escaping into the webway and from fallen Exodites.
I'm not convinced the DE are 'far fewer'. The trouble, I find, with this line of argument is much the same as is in Epic. 'The Dark Eldar are small'.
Are they?
Commorragh
We've no idea how big it is. A city. A few thousand Dark Eldar? A few hundred thousand? A million? A billion?
How do the DE even procreate anyway. Which DE in their right mind, providing their gestation works at all similar to primate gestation, would submit to pregnancy and voluntarily incapacitate themselves for a while?
Who would dedicate themselves to educating the young?
The DE society works best, IMO, if they've established a massive baby-factory system. Hundreds, if not thousands of babies produced per day. Most are simply eaten, as soulfood. Some are, y'know, kept, or accelerated to adolescence. Their minds might be programmed with didactic implants or techniques?
If the DE have any massive way of sustaining their population (and indeed I think it's best if Commoragh has a burgeoning population), then it's gonna be huge.
However, their society is incredibly insular. Why raid with dozens of DE to claim a thousand souls when you could raid with ten thousand DE (say, a warfleet) and stand a fine chance of, perhaps, claiming a billion? (Imagine a 'warfleet' sized assembly of ships simply 'dissecting' a Hiveworld and all its defences..., not a 'claim' of the entire planet, but incapacitating the whole damned thing...)
Fluff Support
I think it's worth restressing that many of our popular 'beliefs' about the races might be widely spread, but they're not necessarily accurate, necessary or sensible. Case in point: Commoragh being awesomely huge makes much more sense to me than a (relative to the other races) teensy DE population scraping about in the odd ends of the Webway...
In that regard, the Eldar items like Void Stalker, DE BB, DE GC and so forth can very viably be pre-fall artefacts. The Eldar race was destroyed (say 99.9%?) and in doing so the Eldar civilisation fell with it. But what about all the shipyards, all the fleets, the relics, the aeon-old weapons caches? I see no reason for the DE, CWE and CE not to have pilfered massive amounts of pre-fall Eldar tech. Given the existence of Craftworlds, I could happily believe that DE access to BBs comes from pre-fall technology.
Certainly, we don't even know if the Dark Eldar even build their own ships anymore. The whole damned lot could be pre-fall tech. No need to 'force it to be a character ship'. These are techno-cannibals living in the hollow carcass of their former glory, and they're still terrifying.
The argument for the BB isn't "The others have a Void Stalker" it is: "It might be bloody cool and afford an extra layer of 'ooh, that's interesting' to the game".
The argument against is "I can't concieve of a sensible reason for the VS, ergo no to the DE too". Well, that's an horrid misrepresentation, but the basic 'anti-BB' stance is that big ships are silly for what are essentially raiding fleets. Sure, they are. I can't argue that on its own. The counterpoint, I feel, could happily be something as has been outlined above. The fluff can support it, and it certainly doesn't rule it out.
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Firstly,
Admiral_d_Artagnan, I keep saying the Corsairs shouldn't have a BB!
Xisor, nice speculating :) (There's no approve smiley!).
Unfortunately the DE background is small, incomplete and out of date! It sucks but that's the way it is! I'm pretty miffed that the DE Codex hasn't been re-done ever!
As the reported attacks by DE are small (as these things go), I'm inclined to either assume that there aren't really that many DE (say a Billion) or that only a very tiny amount of DE take it upon themselves to be externally warlike. Imagine a submissive DE mass population with the cabals ruling over them, leaving the webway to basically go on safari.
Either way I don't see Dark Eldar massing full warfleets with BB's.
On Eldar procreation I thought that there was some sort of spiritual exchange from the parents at certain points throughout the years long pregnancy....It's probably 'novel' background though.
On overall population: if they have Craftworlds of planetary size (bigger than Pluto! ;D) that contain even a sparsely populated civilisations you're looking at least billions. Trillions would be more 'real'. In the end though it's better to be vague with numbers and just focus on the actions of a race/culture.
Cheers,
RayB
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fluff and background should enhance the game, rather than restrict it
i think all BFG fleets should have some thing to serve as a center piece and i think it would enhance the game
for a DE BB, why would it have to be an attack ship, why not a ship bristling with impalers for instance? a slave ship, to hold and gather slaves?
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Firstly,
Admiral_d_Artagnan, I keep saying the Corsairs shouldn't have a BB!
Cheers,
RayB
And I keep pointing out: Fix it. You guys can do it. It shouldn't take that long and a simple FAQ entry should do (and an FAQ IS overdue already) until Armada comes out with Mk 1.5. At the same time, can you fix it so that it doesn't get around the battleship restrictions?
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Allow me to interject here with a snippet of self-promotion.
BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC: CHRONICLES will feature a Dark Eldar heavy cruiser!
In my personal opinion the Corsair fleet should never have received the Void Stalker.
The only Eldar battleship (if any) should have gone to the Craftworld Eldar.
I don't think that the Dark Eldar should warrant a battleship for the same reasons that the Eldar Corsairs shouldn't have one. Battleships are designed for prolonged engaugements which Dark Eldar & Eldar pirates are adversed to.
A heavy cruiser on the other hand lends enough support to strengthen the resolve of the fleet without overpowering it or lending itself to gross ficticious negligence.
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They're both one race with differing political beliefs but I do not believe those differences are enough to extend to ship types.
the social differences described in the background would affect their relative abilities to actually build and maintain large ships in the first place, though. i get the impression that the Dark Eldar don't go in much for serious engineering projects; they have better (or rather worse) things to be doing, and different Kabals would never pool their resources. similarly, when you consider that their military MO is basically dictated by the need to capture as many slaves as possible, the resources necessary to maintain a battleship-sized craft in working order might be more than most Kabals would be willing to invest.
at the end of the day, it's hard to see why the DE would want/need anything larger than their cruisers for the purposes they have in mind.
The DE fluff to be fair is incomplete and scattered across rulebooks and even studio written novels. Their relationship with Slaanesh is one of fear, most DE don't worship Slaanesh or offer sacrifice. In fact it apears that some DE 'consume' the souls of others, this could just be ritualistic but it sounds a pretty cool! ;D
i don't think there's any actual ritual involved; there doesn't need to be. the DE's souls are already forfeit to Slaanesh; they need to torture and murder victims to extend their own lives. the way it works is that the anguish they cause empowers Slaanesh, and in return they get to live a little longer. so they don't "worship" or acknowledge Slaanesh as their "god", as such-- they have nothing to gain through closer alignment with Chaos, they can only hope to delay their inevitable damnation via lives devoted to torment and depravity.
Tallboys are good against stationary targets. Against moving targets which actually shoot back, I think the effectiveness becomes mitigated a lot.
IIRC it was Tallboy bombs that sank the Yamato. granted, it's often attributed to the IJN's lousy damage control infrastructure, but it was clearly possible for fighter-bombers to hit and seriously damage the Yamato (on their first run, no less) in the first place.
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the social differences described in the background would affect their relative abilities to actually build and maintain large ships in the first place, though. i get the impression that the Dark Eldar don't go in much for serious engineering projects; they have better (or rather worse) things to be doing, and different Kabals would never pool their resources. similarly, when you consider that their military MO is basically dictated by the need to capture as many slaves as possible, the resources necessary to maintain a battleship-sized craft in working order might be more than most Kabals would be willing to invest.
The Eldar at this point in time when the race is fading away would also not be delving much into engineering projects anyway. It still doesn't address the fact that the battleship could exist from the time of the Eldar at their peak. Much more limited in access, yes but the battleship should exist.
at the end of the day, it's hard to see why the DE would want/need anything larger than their cruisers for the purposes they have in mind.
Why wouldn't they want it if the battleship exists? If I were a DE captain, I would. I would even take them off the other Kabals hands if they didn't want it.
Tallboys are good against stationary targets. Against moving targets which actually shoot back, I think the effectiveness becomes mitigated a lot.
IIRC it was Tallboy bombs that sank the Yamato. granted, it's often attributed to the IJN's lousy damage control infrastructure, but it was clearly possible for fighter-bombers to hit and seriously damage the Yamato (on their first run, no less) in the first place.
The attack on the Yamato was a purely USN endeavor. No Tallboys were used and it was torpedoes which led to the Yamato's demise, especially since they only concentrated on one side of the ship. Tallboys took the Tirpitz out of the war, not the Yamato. Tallboys are good against stationary targets. Against moving targets, they won't do squat as proven by the B-17 attacks on naval ships.
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IIRC it was Tallboy bombs that sank the Yamato. granted, it's often attributed to the IJN's lousy damage control infrastructure, but it was clearly possible for fighter-bombers to hit and seriously damage the Yamato (on their first run, no less) in the first place.
[/quote]
Yeah, Tallboys were in a different hemisphere than the Yamato altogther. It also took multiple runs to sink it: first round took out the AA guns and gunners with bombs, second and subsequent waves delivered the torpedoes.
If you're in the mood for obscure facts: the third would-be Yamato BB was converted to a carrier, but on its way from one shipyard to another to get a final fitting out, an American sub sunk it (practically in Japanese home waters to boot). The IJN hadn't even fitted the ship with many of its watertight doors yet; it sank pretty fast.
In general, Japanese ships (at least their carriers anyway) had horrible damage control. Their carrier aviation was a very fragile instrument.
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Actually, the Shinano did have watertight doors. Unfortunately, the Captain didn't think the damage was serious enough to warrant closing the doors and the damage was such that the waters overcame the pumps. In this regard, damage control was pretty bad but then again, this was the point in time when Japanese sailors weren't experienced enough anymore.
If you notice the earlier period, Japanese damage control was pretty good. Examples would be during the Battle of the Coral Sea when Shokaku took some bomb hits but managed to make it back. The Battle of Midway which would be the Mogami which managed to reach haven despite heavy damage and Mikuma before the US bombers caught up with her and sank her, the Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu which took hours to sink and the last of the four even lasting until daylight. Again, Shokaku took damage during Santa Cruz and survived again. The Kirishima took a lot of the USS Washington's hits before finally succumbing at Guadalcanal. In Leyte Gulf, the Takao managed to limp back with torp damage. Musashi even lasted quite a while before sinking with the force she was accompanying even passing her two times.
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Why wouldn't they want it if the battleship exists? If I were a DE captain, I would. I would even take them off the other Kabals hands if they didn't want it.
;D sure, but there's still the issue of crew, supplies, repairs etc. i'm not suggesting the DE wouldn't know what to do with a battleship if they got one-- they've probably captured a fair number of other Eldar and alien battleships over 12,000 years, after all-- just that very few Kabals would have the numbers, resources or facilities to actually maintain one, long-term, as a warship.
of course, the same argument, in purely background terms, would conclude that corsair Eldar shouldn't have battleships either, for precisely the same reasons; so i guess it's a pretty academic point. i think we're all aware of the 'real' reasons there will never be an official DE BB...
The attack on the Yamato was a purely USN endeavor. No Tallboys were used and it was torpedoes which led to the Yamato's demise, especially since they only concentrated on one side of the ship. Tallboys took the Tirpitz out of the war, not the Yamato.
duh, you are right, of course; that's what i get for posting hungover from the park, with pretty girls distracting me :P
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;D sure, but there's still the issue of crew, supplies, repairs etc. i'm not suggesting the DE wouldn't know what to do with a battleship if they got one-- they've probably captured a fair number of other Eldar and alien battleships over 12,000 years, after all-- just that very few Kabals would have the numbers, resources or facilities to actually maintain one, long-term, as a warship.
They might be fewer than their cousins but I don't think they would be so few that they couldn't crew a couple of battleships. Not at this point in time anyway. Besides which, they could always just do with having their experimented monkeighs and other races on as crew.
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They might be fewer than their cousins but I don't think they would be so few that they couldn't crew a couple of battleships. Not at this point in time anyway. Besides which, they could always just do with having their experimented monkeighs and other races on as crew.
oh, i don't know that they're meant to be necessarily so much fewer in number than the other branches of the Eldar 'tree'-- the sheer rate of attrition in DE society would indicate a far higher birthrate, for starters, and Comorragh is described in terms more apt to a "hive" world than a single craftworld/city. but they are a lot more divided amongst themselves, into relatively small, mutually antagonistic kabals, and the concept of enlightened self-interest doesn't really figure in their society. the total assets of Comorragh, in military terms, probably exceed those of all the major craftworlds combined; but each craftworld functions as a cohesive, self-sufficient arcology several million strong (they have to, in order to survive), whereas DE kabals would tend to max out at a few thousand, and are constantly in flux (in fact, the larger and more powerful a kabal becomes, the more the inevitable entropy and internecine conflicts accelerate its demise).
the idea of slave crews is a neat one. DE technology in general seems to be a lot less psychically-oriented than other Eldar stuff, so they might well be able to train slaves to basic shipboard operations (damage control, maintenance etc.) slaves still need guards and overseers (and food!) though...
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the idea of slave crews is a neat one. DE technology in general seems to be a lot less psychically-oriented than other Eldar stuff, so they might well be able to train slaves to basic shipboard operations (damage control, maintenance etc.) slaves still need guards and overseers (and food!) though...
Food yes but not so much since you just need the basic nutrients to keep them alive. Guards, probably not so much also since the experimented creatures aren't really mentally the same as before anymore if we go by fluff. They've been lobotomized already and follow the commands of their masters.
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As far as I'm concerned there are 3 major obstacles to the Dark Eldar having battleships. They are:
- ideological incongruity - they are a raiding race which relies upon hit & run style tactics, not the attrition based warfare battleships were designed for.
- logistical limitations - kabals are not immense bearaucracies with nigh unlimited manpower or resources.
- modus operandi incompatibility - the DE raid from out of the webway, their ships being small enough to navigate it; BBs are too large for much of the webway.
However, none of these are insurmountable obstacles. Indeed, the third point seems to have been used in the past to justify their lack of larger warships (so I vaguely recall at any rate) but this is strange given that the Corsair Eldar also use the webway to navigate and they have a battleship. This indicates that there are paths large enough to take a BB. Maybe there are just none large enough that connect to Comarragh. Either way, the DE could use a BB just as the CE do, and a kabal could certainly maintain and crew it just as the CE do, i.e., in some hidden deep space pirate base. As for ideological limitations ... well it isn't too far fetched to assume some splinter kabal decided to build a warfleet of sufficient size and staying power to really annoy the local sector commanders. The combination of inclination and facilitation however would be rare, and likely unique to particularly powerful and visionary leaders, so too should any DE BB be rare and unique. I don't see them being mass produced ...
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Food yes but not so much since you just need the basic nutrients to keep them alive.
i dunno-- it's pretty hard work, especially in combat :P i mean i know the DE aren't worried about squandering the lives of slaves, but they'd also be at least somewhat wary of having large sections of their workforce expiring on them at critical moments. i would expect them to use stimulants etc. routinely, but there'd still come a point at which the overall cost/benefit equation of letting their slaves literally starve to death would overbalance.
Guards, probably not so much also since the experimented creatures aren't really mentally the same as before anymore if we go by fluff. They've been lobotomized already and follow the commands of their masters.
hmm, that would of course work with unskilled labourers... but the problem is that on board a warship, they'd also need significant numbers of trained and experienced workers (the equivalents to engineers and so on) capable, to a large degree, of thinking for themselves and reacting rapidly. this is the other part of my doubt concerning the feasibility of running a battleship with nothing but braindead slaves and guards/slavedrivers-- there's too much stuff that neither of those groups could do effectively.
Indeed, the third point seems to have been used in the past to justify their lack of larger warships (so I vaguely recall at any rate) but this is strange given that the Corsair Eldar also use the webway to navigate and they have a battleship. This indicates that there are paths large enough to take a BB. Maybe there are just none large enough that connect to Comarragh.
... or possibly they don't use them very often, because they're not keen on potentially running into other Eldar fleets (given that they don't always get on very well with their Craftworld cousins)
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Has anyone posted some possible Stats for a DE CA/BC or CG/BB?
Cruiser/8 // Speed 30 // turn 90 // Shadowshields // Armor 5+ // Turrets 0
Prow Weapons Batteries 30cm 12 Left/Front/Right
Pick 2 of the following (Any Combination)
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Prow Shadow Lance 30cm 2 Front
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Prow Tropedoes 30cm 4 Front
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Impaler AC 30cm Special Front
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Fighter 30cm
Launch Bay Bomber 20 cm 3 ---
Assault 30cm
Base Points 230 with upgrades it ends up a little more than CWE Dragon Ship and it must have a Dread Archon and the 3 to 1 escot to Cap rule stiil stays the same.
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I can definitely see a battlecruiser - the displacement change isn't that much (in the case of the Armageddon-class, it's literally a rebuild) from a cruiser, so it shouldn't limit portal access.
The new codex does specifically mention 'kabal flagships' as distinct from cruisers and corsairs - besides which, a suitably paranoid archon travelling in a fleet is going to insist his ship is capable of taking down any other ship in the fleet one-on-one in case one of his minions gets any sudden creative ideas.
Simply letting the Dread Archon's ship buy two weapons instead of one is a pretty simple way to create a battlecruiser equivalent.
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Here's my Sadistic.
Dark Eldar Sadistic Class Battleship.........320
Type/Hits: Battleship/10
Speed: 30 cm
Turns: 90'
Shields: Shadowfield
Armor: 5+
Turrets: 0
Armament: Range/Speed|Firepower/Strength|Fire Arc
Prow Batteries: 45 cm|12|Front
In addition, may be equipped with two of the following for the points shown:
Prow Torpedo Tubes: 30 cm|6|Front +20 points
Prow Phantom Lance: 45 cm|2|Front +20 points
Impaler: AC 30 cm|Special|Front +20 points
Launch Bays: Fighters 30 cm/Bombers 20 cm/ABs 30 cm|4| +40 points
Note:
Does not automatically CTNH but can use CTNH and it's firepower is only reduced by 25% instead of being halved.
Must have 1,000 points worth of DE ships before one can be fielded.
Author's note:
I thought about giving DE the fastest battleship while not on Special Orders. Also gave it heavier firepower on the base ship configuration but only having 2 hardpoints for add-ons for a total of 3 armaments compared the the 4 weapon hardpoints that the Void Stalker has. Comments and critiques welcome.
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That's probably the most balanced thing i have ever seen you make, Admiral. good job!
I was always a fan of the grand cruiser idea, much like the Hero ship of the craftworld eldar. An 8 hit cruiser with slightly greater firepower, what made it stronger was it's staying power.
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scale it down to 8 hits?
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there is no 'scaling back'
the ship does not exist, and probably won't ever exist.
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Officially that is. ;)
Or they may start a surprise act with new Dark Eldar rules.
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Officially that is. ;)
Or they may start a surprise act with new Dark Eldar rules.
I hope so. I've never seen DE make it as far as the table, fleet wise.
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How do you mean?
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That's probably the most balanced thing i have ever seen you make, Admiral. good job!
I was always a fan of the grand cruiser idea, much like the Hero ship of the craftworld eldar. An 8 hit cruiser with slightly greater firepower, what made it stronger was it's staying power.
You haven't seen my Conqueror (all lance BC) or the Governor?