Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: the big bz on March 08, 2011, 11:53:17 PM
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I've just a acquired a large amount of Chaos ships and I was wondering if anyone could help me with a good, effective, balanced starting fleet?
I have pretty much the entire Chaos range...
Thanks in advance.
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You're gonna have to be a bit more detailed than that. How many of each ship, for example? And are you looking for a power fleet or an interesting, fluffy fleet? Which fleets are you going to be playing against mostly?
-Zhukov
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The staple cruiser of the Chaos fleet is the Carnage, though some would have you believe it's the Murder. The Devastation is a very good ship and should fill 90% of all your carrier needs. Between the Carnage and the Devastation you will have the bulk of your fleet. You can add Acherons and Desolators as points allow, as these are both very good ships for their cost. The Styx is now a decent choice for its cost.
The Slaughter is an excellent ship for its cost, but it plays very differently to a typical Chaos fleet. Still, a fleet made up of Slaughters, Executors, and Repulsives could potentially work due to the sheer amount of firepower these ships have, but it would be a bloody fight and only worth trying as an experiment (best tried against Necrons I would say).
I would tend to steer clear of Murders, Hades and Despoilers. Used together in a themed fleet I'd expect them to fair worse than the Slaughter/Executor/Repulsive list. If you're tempted to sprinkle one or two of these ships in to your normal fleet then go for the Hades, but be warned, it'll die quick.
Escorts for Chaos are mostly rubbish. Fill points with Infidels if you really must take them.
The Planet Killer is an excellent ship for larger battles, though as a unique character ship your opponent may not want to see it in every one of your lists. Ignore the Powers of Chaos file. It's rubbish.
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but I'm gonna a bit ::) I'm looking for the same sort of list, and as I'm newly returning to BFG I can't remember much about ship choices. I'm looking to make a rounded list with at least one Grand cruiser in it (I really like the mini). The list needs to be effective against Eldar and Imperial/Marine lists. I'm re-buying the minis so no real restrictions. Thanks in advance and I hope any results from this might help big bz
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Escorts for Chaos are mostly rubbish. Fill points with Infidels if you really must take them.
Don't forget you can take a squadron of Imperial escorts in a Chaos fleet now!
-Zhukov
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I've been learning how to play a chaos fleet for a few months now. I disagree that the carnage is the 'staple' of the chaos fleet. It has its uses. Carnages are very scary for Eldar and anything that counts as 'defense'. But against other targets where they are trying to penetrate 6+ armor or are shooting at an abeam target, even their formidable firepower isnt enough. Long range lances are the bread and butter of a chaos fleet, IMHO, and usually lance ships carry enough batteries to get by. If youre making a standard list, include a carnage but never rely on them.
Murders are better, but I only like the variant with side lances. Two lances each side and front at 45 and 60 respectively means you don't have to worry so much about keeping your broadsides to the enemy and allows for lots of opportunistic shooting. It has more synergy wjth the rest of the fleet. The Murder is also 10pts cheaper.
But if I has to name a ship as a 'staple' it would be the Devestation. Those attack craft squadrons will always come in handy. Either you will need them for CAP or you can bomb/assault enemy ships. With 2 lances and a little bit of defensive batteries, its a great all rounder that can counter enemy ordnance while causing damage as well. Some complain that Devs are undercosted, but I believe that the Dev is what we get in place of mass torpedo salvoes.
At 1500 I havent had much luck with a battleship. They are an obvious target for concentrated torpedo fire as they can't turn out of the way and they give up a ton of VPs. They might require more baby-sitting than chaos can muster at 1500.
Don't neglect escorts. They may not be theoretically necessary, but you'll want some to keep light cruisers and escorts off your tail. And they are a cheap way to add additional lances and get torpedos!
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Well if you look at the desolater, it's basically an Acheron with more hits and a bit more range. If you use it as a fire magnet that's less shooting going into your cruisers. If you lose it, well, you aren't really losing a substantial amount of your firepower. Basically try to let the thing tank to keep pressure off your cruisers.
Anyway, Chaos doesn't typically need escorts because all their carriers have AB standard which really rip up enemy escorts. It remains to be seen, though, how the changes in the 2011 revision will change that balance. Chaos may indeed need a few escorts around to help out since they don't have light cruisers to use.
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I really dislike the lance-Murder in my tactical views.
The Murder-Carnage debate is ages old.
The Murder (prow on) has 2 lances, equals around 9wb @ 60cm. The Carnage being abeam can do 10wb
@ 60cm.
Being abeam is better then going prow on.
Under 45cm the Carnage has 16wb vs 10wb of the Murder.
Given the point difference the Carnage should be better and is better. So that's really okay.
The Desolator is awesome. Fast and excellent long range support. I use it from 1200pts and upwards.
Acheron in same league. Overlooked vessel but very good.
Devestation is indeed a good carrier. But since I prefer gunnery play over ordnance play I will never call it the staple cruiser for Chaos.
I never leave without escorts, Infidels & Iconoclasts always serve me well.
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I've been learning how to play a chaos fleet for a few months now. I disagree that the carnage is the 'staple' of the chaos fleet. It has its uses. Carnages are very scary for Eldar and anything that counts as 'defense'. But against other targets where they are trying to penetrate 6+ armor or are shooting at an abeam target, even their formidable firepower isnt enough. Long range lances are the bread and butter of a chaos fleet, IMHO, and usually lance ships carry enough batteries to get by. If youre making a standard list, include a carnage but never rely on them.
No wonder Chaos aren't considered an overpowered tournament fleet, people play Murders. Comparison:
Carnage
- abeam aspect
- maximises range
- greater focusable fire
- gets more powerful as the game goes on
- superior against 6+ prows when locked on
Murder
- 10 pts cheaper
- better against 6+ prows when not locked on
- better against abeam ships at long range
The early benefits of the Murders firepower against abeam ships quickly evaporates as soon as you get to 45cm range. While the Murder can technically get more firepower at 45cm by going at an angle to get a target abeam and one to the fore this splits the ships focus, and so is less effective. Also, this could require more in the way of manoeuvring and so reduce lock-on opportunities.
Further, the Murder actually closes with the enemy. This is terrible against fleets that require splitting the enemy lines, such as Imperial. The Carnage can go completely abeam or even move slightly away from the enemy and still get a firing solution and on LO at that.
These advantages to the Carnage are enough to compensate for the 10 pt differential. That is to say, the Murder and Carnage would be on a par as far as fleet choices are concerned if this were all there was to it. However, there is more. The Murder will die a lot faster. A lot. A locked-on Murder against an abeam Carnage will get 1.5 hits. A locked-on Carnage against a closing Murder will get 2.8 hits. This is in the 45-60cm range bracket. When we get down to the 30-45cm bracket the Murder could stay locked-on and closing giving it the same firepower but increasing the Carnages average hits to 4.4 OR it could forgo LO to turn to present broadsides, in which case it is simply out-gunned from there on in.
The Carnage is superior to the Murder. Murder = liability, Carnage = reliability.
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As primarily an imperial player whose main opponent is chaos, I've faced the 2x carnage abeam many times and it's never performed well. It has range but does precious little when it's using that range so it has to close or wait for the enemy to close to have an effect. Once it closes, the slaughter has more firepower in the same range band making the carnage a little iffy outside of Eldar. When my opponent switched to murders, he started performing much better.
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True. Sigroth is being a bit too theoretical and simplistic here. His examples are isolated ships in clean space with no blast markers. Also, he is dealing in fractions of a hit, which don't exist in game.
Sigi, your list of advantages to the Carnage make no sense.What on earth do you mean by Carnages get more powerful as the game goes on? Do yours get more guns for being cripples or shooting through a zillion blast markers? Or do they form into Voltron? Same goes for 'greater focusable fire'. How are you 'focusing' the fire in a way the Murder cant? Both ships are deadly at abeam and primarily used as such. The Murder is better at closing 6+ armor whether the Carnage is LO or not.
Heres something to think about Sigi. Youre calculating the median average result from fire, but ignoring the rest of the bell curve. Because you only acheive success 1/3 of the time, the curve is weighted towards the failure side. Since fractions of hits don't happen, you cant save up two .5 hits to make 1 whole over 2 turns. Those 2 half hits make zero hits. Also, with each dice you are more likely to miss than hit. This means that you are more likely to roll worse than the median than to roll better. Its still possible to get 2 hits rather than 1 but it is much more likely the result will be zero than 2. This means that the Carnage can easily underperform from Sigi's expectations.
Thats the theory never seems to pan out, especially when locked on.
Don't get me wrong. Carnages are fun and have their uses. But the side lance variant Murder has a much more even bell curve distribution and so is much more reliable and more likely to score more hits at long range, and distance and blast markers arent a factor. Also, when facing a fleet of larger than one ship, you can manouvre so you can fire forward lancez as well as your side weaponry to greater effect than one carnage at one target.
Ultimately it comes down to playing style. Murders are better against 6+ armor and at range. If you like to stay out of range and shoot, take the Murder variant. If you like to get in close and scrap, Carnages are better than murders if you squadron them, but Slaughters would perform better with that style.
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just squadron your carnage with your acheron. its a death dealing machine. 22wb at 45 and 4 lances? plenty enough FP to force a brace on anything with <=2 shields.
I've also found the carnage still wins because of the lock on opportunities granted by the way it needs to engage (abeam, skirting the enemy fleet). *lock on makes WB's better than lances vs 5+ and vs 6+ it evens out to about Ar 5+. its also the perfect ship for crossing their T.
not that murders are bad per say, but I don't often use them... though now with the hectate......
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Also, he is dealing in fractions of a hit, which don't exist in game.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouFailStatisticsForever (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouFailStatisticsForever)
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Nice. RC has win. :)
Sigoroth did a long argument about how according to the averages theory a Gothic would be a useless vessel. Because it would almost always score only 2 hits, doing nothing against any other cruiser.
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Now that the obligatory argument is over, maybe we can answer the poor guy's question. Welcome to the SG!
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True. Sigroth is being a bit too theoretical and simplistic here. His examples are isolated ships in clean space with no blast markers. Also, he is dealing in fractions of a hit, which don't exist in game.
Sigi, your list of advantages to the Carnage make no sense.What on earth do you mean by Carnages get more powerful as the game goes on? Do yours get more guns for being cripples or shooting through a zillion blast markers? Or do they form into Voltron? Same goes for 'greater focusable fire'. How are you 'focusing' the fire in a way the Murder cant? Both ships are deadly at abeam and primarily used as such.
Er, it gets better because when the enemy close to 45cm the Carnage gets +6WBs. When they close to 30cm it gets a left column shift. When they close to 15cm it gets another left column shift. So at every range bracket the Carnage gets stronger. The Murder maintains the same firepower from its prow lances at any range. As for focus, well, I'm not sure how there can be any doubt. The Carnage focuses more firepower. The best that a Murder can focus on any one target is 10WB at 15cm. The Carnage can add its prow WBs to this, giving 16WBs. Therefore more focus. Same total equivalent firepower, but more focus.
The Murder is better at closing 6+ armor whether the Carnage is LO or not.
When on LO against a closing capital ship at long range with no BM (or normal range with a BM) the Carnage > Murder, though the difference is minuscule.When not locked-on, the Murders average 1/6 of a hit more. So 6 Murders vs 6 Carnages against an Imperial fleet will give +1 hit on average (6 instead of 5) and +60 pts in favour of the Murders. In return those Murders would take such a pounding as to make this advantage worthless, either through crippling, bracing or outright loss.
Heres something to think about Sigi. Youre calculating the median average result from fire, but ignoring the rest of the bell curve. Because you only acheive success 1/3 of the time, the curve is weighted towards the failure side. Since fractions of hits don't happen, you cant save up two .5 hits to make 1 whole over 2 turns. Those 2 half hits make zero hits. Also, with each dice you are more likely to miss than hit. This means that you are more likely to roll worse than the median than to roll better. Its still possible to get 2 hits rather than 1 but it is much more likely the result will be zero than 2. This means that the Carnage can easily underperform from Sigi's expectations.
Thats the theory never seems to pan out, especially when locked on.
Fail.
Ultimately it comes down to playing style. Murders are better against 6+ armor and at range. If you like to stay out of range and shoot, take the Murder variant. If you like to get in close and scrap, Carnages are better than murders if you squadron them, but Slaughters would perform better with that style.
What? If you want to stay at range and shoot take the Carnages. If you want to close take Slaughters. If you want to be able to shoot on the way in take Hades. Don't take Murders at all.
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You cannot stay at range with Murders because you have to close to use the Murders Lances.
Theory collapsed.
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I'm not talking about the standard Murder. I've been talking about the variant Murder with 2 lances front @ 60, 2 lances side at 45 and 4 WBs side at 45. This is the ship I have been referring to all along. I don't take the standard Murder because I like to stay at range and the WBs aren't as reliable at range. This is why your arguments havent made any sense. Youre arguing against a ship that I'm not talking about.
I don't have my gunnery table handy, but at 45 abeam a Carnage gets 3 dice doesn't it? Thats one hit on 5+ armor average for 16WBs. I think the Murder's 4WBs turn into zero and it only gets 2 lances, which is also one hit. So for 10pts cheaper you get equal damage. On LO its still pretty even. Against 6+ armor, the Murder's lances come in handy too. Firing from 45cm at closing 6+ armor the Carnage gets 8 I think while the Murder gets 2WBs and 2 lances. Again, about the same damage both regular and on LO for 10pts less. Getting closer doesn't put the Carnage way above the Murder for damage output either. They are pretty close in terms of damage.
The Carnage can hit abeam at 60 while the Murder can't but with only 2 dice. The Murder can hit fore at 60 with considerable firepower, but the Carnage can't. The Murder's off side is just as strong as its on side. The Carnage's off side is 6WBs weaker than its on. The Murders allow for lots of opportunistic fire, the Carnage does not. But in the same situation they will perform about the same, although the Murder is cheaper. I like the lance variant Murder than the Carnage because it is much more flexible than the Carnage.
That being said, Carnages are useful and I advise taking one for 4+ armor and defences.
If Murders would take a beating being in front of prow armor, Carnages would take the same beating.
Don't just say fail to the mathhammer. We aren't dealing with fractions of hits here. Since each die has no memory or knowledge of what the other die roll, each die has a 1/3 or 1/6 chance of hitting. Its easily possible that no die will score hits. You are more likely to fail with each individual die with WBs than with lances, and youre more likely to success with each lancebdie than WBs. You will tend to get more fails than above average rolls with WBs than Lances, and will get a more equal number of fails and above average rolls for lances. This is because we only get a success or failure so only certain points on the curve are relevant and complete failure is an option. The probability doesn't work the way you think here.
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I'm not talking about the standard Murder. I've been talking about the variant Murder with 2 lances front @ 60, 2 lances side at 45 and 4 WBs side at 45. This is the ship I have been referring to all along. I don't take the standard Murder because I like to stay at range and the WBs aren't as reliable at range. This is why your arguments havent made any sense. Youre arguing against a ship that I'm not talking about.
How can you say you "like to stay at range" and take a mid-range ship? If you take an abeam variant Murder over a closing normal Murder then you're sacrificing the range to get +4WBs and an abeam aspect. So you can't say you want range and then sacrifice it. Take the Carnage.
I don't have my gunnery table handy, but at 45 abeam a Carnage gets 3 dice doesn't it? Thats one hit on 5+ armor average for 16WBs. I think the Murder's 4WBs turn into zero and it only gets 2 lances, which is also one hit. So for 10pts cheaper you get equal damage. On LO its still pretty even. Against 6+ armor, the Murder's lances come in handy too. Firing from 45cm at closing 6+ armor the Carnage gets 8 I think while the Murder gets 2WBs and 2 lances. Again, about the same damage both regular and on LO for 10pts less.
Yes, about even normally. Better against an abeam target with 5+ armour at long range. Worse against anything else when locked on. Significantly worse against closing 5+ armour.
When are you going to be pinging at long range against an abeam cap ship though? The vast majority of the time they will be closing 6+ armour. In which case the Carnage has a clear advantage in the 45-60cm range bracket and a slight advantage in the 30-45cm bracket. About the only time you'll be in such a long range duel would be against another Chaos fleet. In which case the Carnage has a distinct advantage over the Murder, as the Murder has to close to 45cm before it can start this duel, exposing its prow and then having to turn to stay parallel, foregoing LO. In essence, you give up the initiative for a very minimal advantage in a specific range band range against a very particular enemy.
Getting closer doesn't put the Carnage way above the Murder for damage output either. They are pretty close in terms of damage.
No, they're not. Apart from the 0.83-1.52 hit advantage to the Carnage in the 45-60cm range band the largest difference between the two ships has been the 0.33-0.38 hit advantage to the Murder when using the far right column in the 30-45cm range band. When we move down to 30cm range, even against an abeam 5+ armour capital ship, the Carnage will do 0.67-1.28 more damage. How is this "pretty close"? Against a closing cap ship with 6+ armour the Carnage out-performs the lance Murder by 0.33-0.94 hits. Again, not really close. Even against an abeam cap ship with 6+ armour (line breaking a SM fleet??) the Carnage breaks even when on LO.
When we drop down to close range, 15cm or less, the Carnage really blows the Murder out of the water (so to speak). Closing cap ship with 6+ armour = 0.67-1.56 hit advantage to the Carnage. Against side armour it's a 1-2.94 hits (depending on sun/zone and LO). If you catch rear armour you could possibly get a double column shift for shooting into the sun. If you manage this while on LO (which certainly can happen) we're looking at a 4 hit advantage to the Carnage.
The Carnage can hit abeam at 60 while the Murder can't but with only 2 dice. The Murder can hit fore at 60 with considerable firepower, but the Carnage can't.
Both ships will be rolling only 2 dice at 60cm against an abeam target. The Murder presents its prow to do so and gets to hit on a 4+ instead of a 5+. The way you say "only" two dice for the Carnage and "considerable firepower" for the Murder grossly misrepresents the actual differences.
However, the most disturbing point is that you consistently bring up abeam ships, as if most fleets aren't closing 6+ armour (IN, Ork, SM, Tau) for which the Carnage is just as good, or depend on holofields (CE, CWE, DE) for which the Carnage is superior or closing 5+ armour (Nids) in which the Carnage is greatly superior or a combination of closing/abeam 6+ (Necron) for which the Carnage is necessary. A few ships in a few of the afore-mentioned fleets are abeam and one fleet is consistently abeam (Chaos).
What's more, if performance against abeam cap ships is so important, presumably because no one in their right mind would close with 5+ armour, then why are you taking a ship that must close with the enemy to either use its prow weaponry or get to mid range? If people take these sorts of ships then closing 5+ ships must exist in which case the Carnage would be shooting at them so the damage comparison should not be against an abeam cap ship, but against a closing cap ship.
The Murder's off side is just as strong as its on side. The Carnage's off side is 6WBs weaker than its on. The Murders allow for lots of opportunistic fire, the Carnage does not. But in the same situation they will perform about the same, although the Murder is cheaper.
I like the lance variant Murder than the Carnage because it is much more flexible than the Carnage.
That being said, Carnages are useful and I advise taking one for 4+ armor and defences.
The Carnage is more versatile (see the above list of usage), and opportunistic fire is not what you want from your dedicated gunship. The Chaos fleet has enough support ships to provide opportunistic fire. The Dev, Styx, Acheron, Desolator, even the Hades. The Carnage is what they should be supporting. The only other avenues of pure firepower are the Slaughter, which is an alternative fleet set-up, or the Repulsive, which is not numerous enough to be the sole source of your pure gunships.
Oh, and the Carnages off-side weaponry may be weaker than its on-side, but it's as strong as the Murders off-side.
If Murders would take a beating being in front of prow armor, Carnages would take the same beating.
The difference being that Carnages don't present their prows, Murders do.
Don't just say fail to the mathhammer. We aren't dealing with fractions of hits here. Since each die has no memory or knowledge of what the other die roll, each die has a 1/3 or 1/6 chance of hitting. Its easily possible that no die will score hits. You are more likely to fail with each individual die with WBs than with lances, and youre more likely to success with each lancebdie than WBs. You will tend to get more fails than above average rolls with WBs than Lances, and will get a more equal number of fails and above average rolls for lances. This is because we only get a success or failure so only certain points on the curve are relevant and complete failure is an option. The probability doesn't work the way you think here.
Super fail.
Better?
TL;DR Summary - Carnage > Murder.
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Sorry guys, but this debate has been done to death in other threads ::). It's not helping here. Rather than frothing about statistics, I (and probably the author) am after help writing a 1500 point list that isn't going to be garbage until I learn which ships are worth taking and those that aren't, at an early level.
Can we get back on topic, which is what ships are usefull at 1500 points and which to avoid. So far I am looking at not having BBs in the list as they seem to be a points sink.
Thanks again to those who have stayed on course and given advice.
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2 carnages
2 devastations
2 slaughters
1 acheron
1 warmaster
escorts
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I'm talking about using the lance Murder variant abeam, not closing, just like a Carnage. I stay at 30-45 because its optimum range for chaos for every ship.
2 lances firing = 2d6 hitting on 4+
Out of 36 possible combinations
9 are 0 hits 25%
18 are 1 hit 50%
9 are 2 hits 25%
3 batteries firing = 3d6 hitting on 5+
Out of 216 possible combinations
64 are 0 hits 30%
96 are 1 hit 44%
48 are 2 hits 22%
8 are 3 hits 4%
Against closing 6+ armor, the 2 lances are exactly the same as above. For the Carnage, this is the result.
5d6 hitting on 6+
Out of 7776 possible combinations
3125 are 0 hits 40%
So the lances get a hit 75% of the time while the WBs only hit 60%. Once again, with the rerolls from lock on, the lances get even further ahead than WBs.
2 lances between 30 & 45 are slightly better and more reliable than 16WBs. The lances get even better than the WBs when locked on.
My statement was not a fail. You have just been using sloppy math.
And for that you fail.
So, my recommendation for a balanced starter Chaos fleet at 1500pts.
Using Plaxor's revised lists:
Obligatory Warmaster
3x Devestations
2x Murders lance variant
1x Carnage
1x Acheron.
3x Infidels or Idolators to taste
25pts left over for a Lord or mark
12 AC squadrons for defense or offense
14 lances to deal with armor.
And yes, a Carnage will come in handy for defenses, Eldar, and soft rear Ork armor. Make sure to shoot the Carnage before anything else.
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Le sigh. And what do you think the Carnage/Murder debate is? A pointless exercise? Or perhaps one which tells you what is the best staple cruiser to take and which one should be avoided. To put it another way, in a 1500 pt list TAKE CARNAGES and try to avoid ships that have to close to be effective, like the Murder, Despoiler and Hades.
As has also been pointed out, the Dev is a good staple. The Desolator is a good ship. The Acheron is a good ship. The Styx is a good ship and finally cheap enough to actually consider taking. So fill your list with these ships and you won't go to far wrong. If you want to know ratios, well 12-14 AC is sufficient for a 1500 pt fleet so that's about half your points when you take into account your WM. For the other half you can take 4 Carnages. You can upgrade one Dev to a Styx and one Carnage to an Acheron and still have enough for a re-roll. If you're going to take Slaughters then take several. A single unsupported Slaughter will die quickly. Such a fleet might look like: Repulsive (255), Styx (260), WM + RR + CSM/MoN(160), 5 Slaughters (825).
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I'm talking about using the lance Murder variant abeam, not closing, just like a Carnage. I stay at 30-45 because its optimum range for chaos for every ship.
2 lances firing = 2d6 hitting on 4+
Out of 36 possible combinations
9 are 0 hits 25%
18 are 1 hit 50%
9 are 2 hits 25%
3 batteries firing = 3d6 hitting on 5+
Out of 216 possible combinations
64 are 0 hits 30%
96 are 1 hit 44%
48 are 2 hits 22%
8 are 3 hits 4%
Against closing 6+ armor, the 2 lances are exactly the same as above. For the Carnage, this is the result.
5d6 hitting on 6+
Out of 7776 possible combinations
3125 are 0 hits 40%
So the lances get a hit 75% of the time while the WBs only hit 60%. Once again, with the rerolls from lock on, the lances get even further ahead than WBs.
2 lances between 30 & 45 are slightly better and more reliable than 16WBs. The lances get even better than the WBs when locked on.
My statement was not a fail. You have just been using sloppy math.
And for that you fail.
Super-dooper fail?
My maths has not been "sloppy". It has been precise. I know that WBs use a right skewed distribution. If the aim was to get at least one hit every time then yes, take the lances. That is not the aim. The aim is to blow the enemy up. You want damage spikes. Damage spikes are good. Particularly from your main gunship. Lances are support weapons. Chaos has a tonne of lances. So what this means is that while the average number of hits between the two are similar (advantage still mostly to the Carnage) the Carnage is more likely to do significant hull damage whereas the Murder will only peck at shields or maybe drop 1 point of hull damage here or there. This does not make the opponent brace, does not cripple them and does not allow for spectacular success.
As for reliability, the Carnage again wins. The Carnage can take on any fleet. The Murder purely sucks against Eldar and against closing 5+ prows (Nids, closing Chaos fleets, crossing the prow on some other ships) the Carnage is so much better that they seem to be in another class. Against closing 6+ armour the Carnage is just as good and gets better under optimal conditions.
There just is no reason to take the Murder. Even if I was facing off against Space Marines I'd take the Carnage. It's the better choice. In fact, I believe that it's peoples' reliance on Murders that makes Chaos a mediocre fleet.
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Eh...Sigiroth...
Do you actually play this game?
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Ohhh... 'Damage Spikes' is your argument.
All your previous arguments seemed to drone on about how the Carnage would consistently outperform the Murder's lances by fractions of a hit, utilizing your 'precise maths' as you call them. I didn't realize that your pot of gold with the Carnage was that 4-in-100 shot chance that you could get 3 hits instead of 2 abeam, or the even longer shot of getting more than 2 hits vs 6+ prow armor. I guess if that floats your boat, go with it. I'd rather get more consistent fire over the whole game of one or two hits per firing ship per turn, than have less reliable firepower in hopes of getting extremely lucky.
And if anyone is counting, the Murder variants are already holding their own against the Carnages with just the 2 lances. But they also have 4 WBs that translate into at least 1 dice. Throw that in there, and the Murder will have twice the chance of getting in 3 hits that a Carnage will. There's your 'damage spike' and 'significant hull damage' comparison for you.
In terms of 'reliability', there are some situations where a Carnage comes in handy. Eldar is one. Defenses is one. 4+ armor is another. There are also some situations where the Carnage is bloody useless and the lances of the Murder will come in handy. Space Marines with 6+ armor all around is one. Necrons with 6+ armor all around is one. Escorts is one also.
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Ohhh... 'Damage Spikes' is your argument.
All your previous arguments seemed to drone on about how the Carnage would consistently outperform the Murder's lances by fractions of a hit, utilizing your 'precise maths' as you call them. I didn't realize that your pot of gold with the Carnage was that 4-in-100 shot chance that you could get 3 hits instead of 2 abeam, or the even longer shot of getting more than 2 hits vs 6+ prow armor. I guess if that floats your boat, go with it. I'd rather get more consistent fire over the whole game of one or two hits per firing ship per turn, than have less reliable firepower in hopes of getting extremely lucky.
You're not slightly retarded or anything are you? The average hits of the Carnage equals or surpasses that of the Murder. The times that the Murder has a clear advantage (0.38 hits) its "just a fraction of a hit" too. This is a FUCKING STUPID thing to say, by the way. Every single average in the game relies on "fractions of hits". A single lance averages 0.5 hits. Oh no! This is only a fraction! That means it'll never hit! Idiot.
The Carnage has significantly higher average hits across the course of a game. The Murder does not compare. In the most unfavourable of circumstances the Murder does all right. The Carnage is pretty close. Mere "fractions of a hit" difference. However, in the right circumstances the Carnage absolutely annihilates the Murder in terms of performance. The average difference is twice the damage output. This is the average difference. So, on average, one Carnage in optimal conditions is worth 2 lance Murders in the same conditions.
The minuscule advantage of the Murder in very specific circumstances does not equal the tremendous advantage of the Carnage in equally specific circumstances, let alone the advantage of position and range that the Carnage has.
Now, on top of that, the Carnages' damage is spiky. This is good for bypassing shields when there is little support and for making the enemy's choice to brace a difficult one (see the psychological advantages of the NC). If you're looking at a support ship then lances are better. You don't need to worry about position so much and can rely upon the less varied damage output to reach certain thresholds (such as crippling) without having to over-commit firepower. We're not talking about a support ship though, we're talking mainline gunship. I wouldn't recommend a ship with spiky damage over one with higher average damage simply because it's spiky.
So my argument relies upon three things. One, the Carnage is appropriate against all fleets, whereas the Murder is not. Two, the Carnage does higher average damage. Three, the Carnage has better range/defensive aspect. The fact that the Carnages damage is spiky is simply apropos to its role.
And if anyone is counting, the Murder variants are already holding their own against the Carnages with just the 2 lances. But they also have 4 WBs that translate into at least 1 dice. Throw that in there, and the Murder will have twice the chance of getting in 3 hits that a Carnage will. There's your 'damage spike' and 'significant hull damage' comparison for you.
In terms of 'reliability', there are some situations where a Carnage comes in handy. Eldar is one. Defenses is one. 4+ armor is another. There are also some situations where the Carnage is bloody useless and the lances of the Murder will come in handy. Space Marines with 6+ armor all around is one. Necrons with 6+ armor all around is one. Escorts is one also.
Wow, are you just incapable of doing simple maths? Against a closing Space Marine ship at 60cm range the Carnage with have 5 dice. That averages to 0.83 hits. The closing Murder will get 2 dice at 4+, giving an average of 1 hit. So you give up aspect to get 0.17 extra hits on average. The abeam Murder will get 0 hits at 60cm. Meaning to maintain the defensive aspect of the Carnage it gives up 0.83 hits. Clear advantage Carnage. Now let's look at it on LO. The closing Murder gets 1.5 hits on average, the abeam Carnage 1.52 hits on average. Close enough to be equal. But the Carnage has a more defensive aspect and is not closing with the enemy. Clear advantage Carnage.
Now let's look at 45cm, both abeam. The Carnage will get 8 dice, hitting on 6's. The Murder will get 2 dice hitting on 6's and 2 dice hitting on 4's. This averages to the exact same amount. Now look at them on LO. That's 2.11 hits for the Murder and 2.44 hits for the Carnage. Clear advantage Carnage.
Now let's look at 30cm. The difference between the ships is 8 dice at 6+ armour vs 2 dice at 4+. Surely even you can tell the former is much better. It gets even better for the Carnage on LO. Even when you pass right next to the SM ship, close range abeam, the Carnage is still better on LO.
And if you think that the Carnage is not useful against Necrons then you've no idea about this game. The Carnage is not a ship to take only against specific fleets. It works against every single fleet in the game.
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Carnage = 10wb @ 60cm
Carnage = 16wb under 45cm
Murder (lance variant) = 2 lances @ 60cm if prow on
Murder (lance variant) = 2 lances & 4wb under 45cm
4wb above 30cm is laughable. Even the standard Murder is better then.
The Carnage is always better then the Murder. That's why you pay +10pts.
The lance Murder is crap in every possible way.
Chaos has enough lances.
Fraces gave an excellent fleet.
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Ummm Phthisis and Sigiroth, thanks for your ideas but please take your argument somwhere approriate. I'm really not one for stats, and the way my dice go stats are irrelevant. All I'm after is a basic list that isn't going to suck so that I can get into the game with as little faffing about as possible.
I say again, have your argument about relative ships somewhere else!.
Repulsive (255), Styx (260), WM + RR + CSM/MoN(160), 5 Slaughters (825). Sounds pretty interesting, would it hurt the list much to drop a Slaughter and take some escorts?
Thanks again to those on topic
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lol,
stats are the core of the fleet selection.
I kinda dislike so much Slaughters in one fleet from a fluff/background story point of view.
You will also have a problem the Repulsive will end up quite alone due to much slower speed then Slaughters.
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Ummm Phthisis and Sigiroth, thanks for your ideas but please take your argument somwhere approriate. I'm really not one for stats, and the way my dice go stats are irrelevant. All I'm after is a basic list that isn't going to suck so that I can get into the game with as little faffing about as possible.
That's a shame, because the entire game is based upon statistical probability. Well, if all you're interested in is how the ships themselves play, then for Chaos any ship that can go abeam to do its job is good. Apart from that, range is good. So, the Styx is in itself a good ship. It wastes no off-side firepower and has good reach as well as giving a lot of AC. Its high cost means that even with an upgraded Repulsive on the table it will be your flag, which means you get the leadership bonus on your carrier, which is where it should be.
I say again, have your argument about relative ships somewhere else!.
I will say what I want where I want.
Repulsive (255), Styx (260), WM + RR + CSM/MoN(160), 5 Slaughters (825). Sounds pretty interesting, would it hurt the list much to drop a Slaughter and take some escorts?
I think it would. Generally Chaos escorts aren't worth their cost. On top of which they all have a design flaw. The Iconoclasts are weak, with 4+ armour and only mediocre 3 WB firepower. This would be okay (just okay, not strong) if they were only 25 pts, but at 30pts each they are too weak. The Idolator is very expensive, paying for its long range guns, but 60% of its firepower is locked forward and only 30cm range. So if you take advantage of the range you're paying way too much and if you're using all its firepower you're still paying 5 pts more than the IN analogue. So you're basically paying 5 pts per ship (30 pts over a full squadron) for incidental usage of range. That is, 5 pts more than an already sucky alternative. The Infidel is probably the best of a bad bunch, but as a torp boat it wastes too much firepower (and hence points) in its direct weaponry. This isn't terrible, as you can use that weaponry and can at least be abeam to do so, but you'll usually be on RO orders rather than LO, meaning that as gunships they're worth less than half of a Sword (35 pts). Further, at 40 pts each having only 1 turret is a severe liability.
However, it should be noted that the fleet list I've given here is a very risky one. It depends upon getting to 30cm range with the bulk of the fleet. The Rep can function at 45cm but would benefit from getting to at least 30cm. Only the Styx can stay back, but then it'll likely be unable to adequately protect the fleet from enemy AC so even it will want to close somewhat. The problem with all this is that it makes your ships really easy to blow up. A typical Carnage based fleet would have little problems against this sort of fleet.
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You will also have a problem the Repulsive will end up quite alone due to much slower speed then Slaughters.
This won't be a problem. The enemy will have a bunch of Slaughters on their doorsteps to worry about. Would you shoot at the faster and more fragile ships bearing down or the slightly more powerful and survivable one that isn't yet a worry? The only thing you'd need worry about is encircling escorts, but the Styx would be behind/near the Repulsive defending it against such a tactic. The biggest problem isn't that the Repulsive is vulnerable to such a tactic, but rather that the Styx is. It is more fragile than the Rep and is the fleets only defence against AC. If escorts circled and took that out then the fleet would be in trouble. But it's a glass cannon type fleet. It'll either storm the enemy convincingly or fall apart.
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Repulsive (255), Styx (260), WM + RR + CSM/MoN(160), 5 Slaughters (825).
I wouldn't recommend this fleet...This is speaking purely if you attacking my Ork fleet because by the time you get into range (Which all the slaughters only have 30cm range, exactly where I want you), I will have around 60 torpedoes, and around 24 attack craft hitting your fleet...Those 6 attack craft you have protecting your fleet will be instantly swept away by fighta bommaz, and another 18 are going to preform bombing runs on you...then the torpedoes hit. In one round I could quite easily cripple all 5 of those cruisers, and that's not even accounting for me blasting you with all my gunz before the ordnance hits. The way I play my fleet is that I don't launch the ordnance until I know it will hit you the turn it launches, so there is no avoiding it. The best you can do is brace against it...and then I have another full turn fighting against ships that are braced and more or less useless.
And those 60 torpedeos aren't the maximum...that's an average that will be coming your way, with a maximum of 90
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Thanks for pointing that out Taggerung, it's been that long since I last played that this sort of advice is invaluble. On reflection, I'm not going to spam one ship type, so a pair of Slaughters is it plus what ever people recommend are usefull supliments to these. I'm also pretty much going to stick with the Repulsive and Styx+WM+RR/MoN.
Sigoroth, I undestand that games like this are deeply involed with stats but I don't want to obsess over that part of the game. I'm just taking part in a 'beer and pretzels' style league between friends because we are getting bored with 40k and are each starting new fantasy armies, which will take some time. I apreciate that you will post what you want, where you want, but continuing what seems to be a private argument on a thread like this is of no value to the OP (who I have subsumed, sorry) or me.
Again thanks for the valuable insights posted.
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Just wondering, have you checked out the flawed fleets? My gaming group is using these now and I feel it's a much better way to play (especially after the new updates...the ork clanz document is terrible)
If you have this is the fleet I would run...with using the repulsive/styx (Point costs represent the flawed lists fyi)
Repulsive (245)
Styx (260), WM + RR + CSM/MoN(135)
2 x Devastations (380)
2 x Carnage (360)
3 x Infidels (120)
1500 pts
This gives you everything, lances, batteries, 14 AC, and even 6 torps...seems like a pretty solid all comers to start with.
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Not checked the flawed ship lists yet, but if they are better then I can see the group of us using them.
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God, Sigi, youre an arrogant and dense prick. Any idiot can calculate mean average hits as you are. How dare you call me an idiot and suggest I'm retarded! Stop trolling and learn to act like a human being!
Youre only calculating average hits but completely ignoring how those hits are distributed amongst your rolls. When you only have 8 or so opportunities to roll in a game, the incidence probability of specific results has a bigger impact on the game and your strategy than mean average.
Out of respect for others, a trait which you have demonstrated a lack of, I won't continue this argument here. But this will continue in another thread once either you or I start one specifically for this purpose.
@Taggerung
Why the Repulsive? It seems to lack synergy with the rest of the fleet. It's a line breaker that needs to close and broadside at close range to be most effective. Everything else is an abeam gunline ship, which the Repulsive neither has the armament or speed to do.
Also, why the MoN on the Styx? Just curious.
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Because of this statement here...
I'm also pretty much going to stick with the Repulsive and Styx+WM+RR/MoN.
Those are his choices, not mine.
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Pthisis stop fighting with Sig.
The Murder Vs. Carnage debate is really a matter of preference. Some people like one over the other, depending on how they like to play.
I like playing with the Murder more, because the vessel is described as more common, but I do think that the Carnage has an edge due to its rotating prow weapons.
Honestly the lance Murder variant is pretty decent. Especially if you're looking for a way to get more lances, the standard doesn't provide much in comparison to the Carnage.
There is something to note about potential over averages. Look at the two types of Dauntlesses, the lance Dauntless mathematically will perform better than the Torp one. However it is unlikely that the Lance D will do internal damage to a ship, however a Torp one almost always will. Even against ships that the Lance one could not.
In my document the Repulsive is costed at 245, because it has the shield upgrade included automatically, as it is forced to have a large base.
Martini, the link is in my signature. I'm still working on them, but I should be done in 2-3 months.
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Honestly the lance Murder variant is pretty decent. Especially if you're looking for a way to get more lances, the standard doesn't provide much in comparison to the Carnage.
More lances in a Chaos fleet?
Tell me, which Chaos cruiser, heavy cruiser or battleship does not have lances? Carnage!
No, number of lances ain't a worry in the Chaos fleet.
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Just to poke at sig and add another plug for the the murder/hades combo, here's a fleet I've been toying with especially after seeing how the murders work for the Chaos player I do most of my games against.
2x murder
2x devastation
2x hades
desolator
:)
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Hi Vaaish,
A fleet Desolator, 2x Devestation, 2x Acheron, 2x Carnage
vs
B fleet Desolator, 2x Devestation, 2x Hades, 2x Murder
Both fleets: 9 torps + 8 launch bays
focussed fp prow on:
A : 18 wb
B : 6 wb + 12 lances
--> B wins
focussed fp broadside
46-60cm
A : 26 wb + 12 lances
B : 6wb + 12 lances
31-45cm
A : 50 wb + 16 lances
B : 46 wb + 12 lances
0-30cm
A : 62 wb + 16 lances
B : 58 wb + 12 lances
That's clear. Fleet A wins in all ranges firing broadsides.
Now: fleet B has prow on at 60cm : 6wb lances + 12 lances. The same as it can do as a broadside.
Fleet A has more when being broadside at 60cm (26wb + 12lances)
Fleet B can only get better use if Hades/Murders are able to fire prow & broadside together. A difficult job.
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Sigoroth is entirely correct in that the Carnage has a more defensive posture, a more favourable tactical procedure, higher average damage, and more room for spectacular success than the lance murder. It's well worth the 10pts extra.
In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps we should do something to redress the balance between them in flawed ships. Either cut the Murder to 165pts or increase its broadside to FP12 or something.
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Playing prow on with a bunch of lances has some strategic advantages.
For example, Orks or Imperials with 6+ prows and torpedos generally deploy facing straight at you and try to launch as much as they can as they close. 12 lances fore without need for course correction can LO and potentially cripple a ship a turn. As long as you have enough fighters to deal with long range torp fire, this can be a strong incentive for the enemy fleet to abandon preliminary torpedo bombardment and get to broadsides. This is leverage you don't have with an abeam gunline. Torps don't care which way your ship is facing.
I think you also have a bit more control over how those broadsides happen initially. You don't have to turn to hit weaker armor so you can LO. You also can get within 15cm more reliably. So yeah, less broadside weaponry, but you can likely get more out of them for a couple turns.
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Pretty much exactly what Sigoroth said:
Build your fleet around Cruisers, primarily Carnages supported by Devastations. For example:
4 Carnages
3 Devastations
That's 1290 points. Add a Warmaster (on one of the Devastations, which should probably squadron to share that Ld 9) and you have 110 points left to blow. That could be, for instance, 70 points to upgrade the Warmaster's Devastation to a Styx, plus an extra re-roll, with enough points left to upgrade a Carnage to an Acheron, which would leave you with this:
540 - 3 Carnage
380 - 2 Devastation
190 - 1 Acheron
260 - 1 Styx
125 - Warmaster, extra re-roll (on styx)
(1495)
Alternatively, you could go with:
720 - 4 Carnage
380 - 2 Devastation
300 - Desolator
100 - Warmaster
(1500)
Both would be solid, long-range, broadside fleets--which is really what Chaos does in BFG.
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well the best murder/hades arguement is admiral d's fleet which has a 'battery' of 3 murders and 1 hades (w/chaos lord iirc)... 10 lances is nothing to shun off... keep em moving 12.5 cm a turn on lock on and that's pretty deadly. you just have to distract the enemy with closer in abeam ships to draw fire.... like a carnage squadroned with an acheron....however... where is the AC gonna come from?
really you can get just as much bang (as far as lances are concerned) by taking: 3 dev's, 1 carnage, 1 acheron, 1 styx and a repulsive+ lance range w/ warmaster (this is w/ the gothic fleet list). 10 lances at 60, 5 more w/in 45, and lotsa guns, meanwhile dropping 14 ac down.
genearlly the 'abeam' fleets are just as strong, and a good deal more resilient.
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Horizon, I know the statistics say that. I also know that my friend started by using the statistically better carnage for the first 5 or 10 games we played and it almost never provided any useful firepower against my fleets. A few shield hits here or there at 60cm and maybe one hull hit at 45cm was the best they got. In close, they did better but still not all that impressive and it was fairly easy to get them to brace. The fleet is pretty transparent in how it's used so it's pretty simple to plot a course to cross the T while staying mostly abeam myself.
Once he started using murders he fared a whole lot better. Besides, that fleet I posted only has 4 less total battery strength than your typical 2x carnage fleet out to 45cm and 4 lances more than your typical at the same range. At 60cm, it is true that the 2x carnage fleet has considerably more WB strength, but at that point the fleet I posted has 8 more lances.
What that breaks down to is the two carnages getting fp20 locked on giving them just enough dice to get roughly one hit past shields at 60cm on a closing 6+ prow. That's followed up by one of two things. Both Acheron are in a single squadron, or both are separate with the desolator. If it's the first one, you get fp12 which will be just enough to drop shields on another ship or maybe drop another hit from the first target. If not, then maybe they drop a shield here or there with three individual fp6 shots. Add in lances for maybe another 8 hits. So probably around 12-13 hits total.
Figuring for all 20 lances with 16 locked on, the fleet I posted should end with 14-15 hits with everything outside the devs locked on. That isn't saying carnage are complete crap, but they sure aren't the end all for a chaos fleet. Give both a try and see what works best for you regardless of what mathammer says.
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Repulsive (255), Styx (260), WM + RR + CSM/MoN(160), 5 Slaughters (825).
I wouldn't recommend this fleet...This is speaking purely if you attacking my Ork fleet because by the time you get into range (Which all the slaughters only have 30cm range, exactly where I want you), I will have around 60 torpedoes, and around 24 attack craft hitting your fleet...Those 6 attack craft you have protecting your fleet will be instantly swept away by fighta bommaz, and another 18 are going to preform bombing runs on you...then the torpedoes hit. In one round I could quite easily cripple all 5 of those cruisers, and that's not even accounting for me blasting you with all my gunz before the ordnance hits. The way I play my fleet is that I don't launch the ordnance until I know it will hit you the turn it launches, so there is no avoiding it. The best you can do is brace against it...and then I have another full turn fighting against ships that are braced and more or less useless.
And those 60 torpedeos aren't the maximum...that's an average that will be coming your way, with a maximum of 90
I actually agree with you Tag, I wouldn't recommend this fleet against an Ork fleet either. It is a very risky fleet the best of times, let alone against one that really wants to be at close range. However, I do think that it would stand a chance against you if you decided to hold to the tactics you've listed here. With the ordnance supremacy you have here your best bet would actually be to launch a screen early and take your chances with RO. This is because of the sheer speed of the Slaughter. If you hold off till shotgun range you may find the Slaughters bypassing your torps by AAFing from beyond 45cm right into your lines and doing some initial damage (sure half firepower, but at close range against abeam 5+ armour, firing 7WB + 1L one side, 4WB+1L the other for each against 1 shield ships). Then next turn they'll have a shot at your rear armour. Not a place you want a Slaughter to be. Particularly when you've got a Repulsive still bearing down on you from the front.
Sigoroth is entirely correct in that the Carnage has a more defensive posture, a more favourable tactical procedure, higher average damage, and more room for spectacular success than the lance murder. It's well worth the 10pts extra.
In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps we should do something to redress the balance between them in flawed ships. Either cut the Murder to 165pts or increase its broadside to FP12 or something.
Heh, why bother? People are already convinced the Murder is superior! I've always thought that given the extra range on the Carnage that the Murder should be 12@45cm. However, you'd have to look at the comparative value to reassess costs, as well as looking at the Hades.
Horizon, I know the statistics say that. I also know that my friend started by using the statistically better carnage for the first 5 or 10 games we played and it almost never provided any useful firepower against my fleets. A few shield hits here or there at 60cm and maybe one hull hit at 45cm was the best they got. In close, they did better but still not all that impressive and it was fairly easy to get them to brace. The fleet is pretty transparent in how it's used so it's pretty simple to plot a course to cross the T while staying mostly abeam myself.
There is no way you can cross the Carnages T while staying abeam. You will either be circling each other, ie both abeam, or you will be closing. That's that.
Once he started using murders he fared a whole lot better. Besides, that fleet I posted only has 4 less total battery strength than your typical 2x carnage fleet out to 45cm and 4 lances more than your typical at the same range. At 60cm, it is true that the 2x carnage fleet has considerably more WB strength, but at that point the fleet I posted has 8 more lances.
What that breaks down to is the two carnages getting fp20 locked on giving them just enough dice to get roughly one hit past shields at 60cm on a closing 6+ prow. That's followed up by one of two things. Both Acheron are in a single squadron, or both are separate with the desolator. If it's the first one, you get fp12 which will be just enough to drop shields on another ship or maybe drop another hit from the first target. If not, then maybe they drop a shield here or there with three individual fp6 shots. Add in lances for maybe another 8 hits. So probably around 12-13 hits total.
So considering this fleet as a whole, rather than just the Murder/Hades comparison, then yes, at 60cm range you get an extra 3 hits against closing 6+ prow fleets. But while doing so you're presenting a closing 5+ prow. So you will take more damage. Higher damage output, higher damage intake. I fail to see how the Carnage is "fairly easy to brace" and the Murder/Hades is so much tougher to brace. At 60cm we have 20WB vs 8 lances. Since you're presenting a 5+ prow yourself then you simply cannot say that the Carnages will always be shooting at 6+ prows. When they do shoot at 6+ prows then at least they're defensible while doing so. Against closing 5+ prows (apparently common since you keep insisting on taking Murders and Hades) then the Carnages will average 5.56 hits vs the 6 hits of the 8 lances. Sod all difference.
If however we're just talking about the Murder/Carnage trade-off, which is the point of this, not whether Hades are worth their salt, then in your example of the Carnages against 6+ prows the 2 Carnages average 3 hits (which you say disparagingly) but 2 Murders in the same situation still only average 3 hits! They don't get better against enemy Murders however. Or against Tyranids. Or against Eldar. Or against defences. Or any better at 45cm ... or 30cm ... or 15cm.
But going back to that fleet, and against that enemy (6+ closing prows) and assuming that the enemy can do nothing to hurt your soft nose. The fleet you posted has more punch at 60cm, by 3 hits. Well done. Now let's come down to 45cm and see if your long range investment was worth it.
Ok, so now you pick up 4 lances from the Acherons, which by themselves brings the difference in hits down to zero. You also pick up 24 more WBs. Now assuming as we are that we're talking about 6+ prows and even assuming that the Acherons are targeting the same ship as the Carnages then we see an average of +3 hits. So, worst case scenario, the Carnage/Acheron fleet has the same average damage as the Murder/Hades fleet across the two range bands. Want to take the comparison further to 30cm? Take into account enemy long range WBs? Enemy soft targets?
Figuring for all 20 lances with 16 locked on, the fleet I posted should end with 14-15 hits with everything outside the devs locked on. That isn't saying carnage are complete crap, but they sure aren't the end all for a chaos fleet. Give both a try and see what works best for you regardless of what mathammer says.
Yeah, right, like it's so hard to figure out what happens to closing 5+ armour vs abeam 5+ armour that it has to be play tested in depth.
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Pretty much exactly what Sigoroth said:
Build your fleet around Cruisers, primarily Carnages supported by Devastations. For example:
4 Carnages
3 Devastations
That's 1290 points. Add a Warmaster (on one of the Devastations, which should probably squadron to share that Ld 9) and you have 110 points left to blow. That could be, for instance, 70 points to upgrade the Warmaster's Devastation to a Styx, plus an extra re-roll, with enough points left to upgrade a Carnage to an Acheron, which would leave you with this:
540 - 3 Carnage
380 - 2 Devastation
190 - 1 Acheron
260 - 1 Styx
125 - Warmaster, extra re-roll (on styx)
(1495)
Exact same list as I posted, with the exact same reasoning behind it. Start with a core of Carnages, Devs, take compulsory Warlord, look at how many points you've got left to play with and take RR, upgrade to Styx and Acheron.
I'm really beginning to think I'm suffering from MPD and you're another account I created. :P
Alternatively, you could go with:
720 - 4 Carnage
380 - 2 Devastation
300 - Desolator
100 - Warmaster
(1500)
Both would be solid, long-range, broadside fleets--which is really what Chaos does in BFG.
Yarp, another viable fleet. A touch low on AC and RRs, but with the extra firepower and survivability it's good.
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well the best murder/hades arguement is admiral d's fleet which has a 'battery' of 3 murders and 1 hades (w/chaos lord iirc)... 10 lances is nothing to shun off... keep em moving 12.5 cm a turn on lock on and that's pretty deadly. you just have to distract the enemy with closer in abeam ships to draw fire.... like a carnage squadroned with an acheron....however... where is the AC gonna come from?
I back up the 4 (Hades+3 Murders) with a Styx and 2 Devs.
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Exact same list as I posted, with the exact same reasoning behind it. Start with a core of Carnages, Devs, take compulsory Warlord, look at how many points you've got left to play with and take RR, upgrade to Styx and Acheron.
I'm really beginning to think I'm suffering from MPD and you're another account I created. :P
Yeah, actually, I guess it is. I responded after only reading the first page, and didn't get to the post where you detailed that exact fleet. Sorry. Don't worry, though, you're not crazy. I'm not you.
Yarp, another viable fleet. A touch low on AC and RRs, but with the extra firepower and survivability it's good.
Yeah. I'm not as big a fan of this one. I prefer the bigger carrier group. Still, some people like the battleships, and the Desolator's the one to take if you're going to bother.
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There is no way you can cross the Carnages T while staying abeam. You will either be circling each other, ie both abeam, or you will be closing. That's that.
if you come in at a shallow angle and the carnage tries to say abeam and circle you can close and maintain an abeam aspect. I do this all the time. It all depends on how you position yourself.
But while doing so you're presenting a closing 5+ prow. So you will take more damage
Theoretically, yes, but since there really isn't a whole lot of 60cm WB in Tau, IN, Marines, Eldar, Orks, or Nids, you really don't have much to fear at 60cm. Everything else is lances and it doesn't matter. Basically the only time you have to worry about considerable 60cm battery strength is in a mirror match.
Carnages average 3 hits (which you say disparagingly) but 2 Murders in the same situation still only average 3 hits!
I say it disparagingly because that really isn't anything great. 60cm batteries are a crap shoot regardless of where they come from. My whole point was that the fleet puts out a considerable amount of firepower and is just as viable and effective as the "ultimate ship of doom" carnage fleet you have such high regard for; all it requires is a bit different play style. I've seen it used effectively just as I've seen carnages fall flat on their face time and again. I'm sorry that my experience doesn't meet your mathematic predictions, but that's what I've seen from facing the two ships over and over and no amount of theoretical conjecture can change that.
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well the best murder/hades arguement is admiral d's fleet which has a 'battery' of 3 murders and 1 hades (w/chaos lord iirc)... 10 lances is nothing to shun off... keep em moving 12.5 cm a turn on lock on and that's pretty deadly. you just have to distract the enemy with closer in abeam ships to draw fire.... like a carnage squadroned with an acheron....however... where is the AC gonna come from?
I back up the 4 (Hades+3 Murders) with a Styx and 2 Devs.
Yes, and I can't see Valhallan's concept of "distracting" fire from the Hades with closer abeam ships as being at all possible. Firstly, by nature, the Hades is going to be closer to the enemy than an abeam ship. Secondly, it's still just a leadership test. There's no way that I, as a player, would go zOMG!!1!one!! There's an abeam Dev nearby! Must shoot that rather than the much easier to kill and more heavily armed Hades!
Yeah, actually, I guess it is. I responded after only reading the first page, and didn't get to the post where you detailed that exact fleet. Sorry. Don't worry, though, you're not crazy. I'm not you.
Heh, well two (apparently) different people coming to identical conclusions through identical processes independently of each other is convergent evidence of validity.
Yeah. I'm not as big a fan of this one. I prefer the bigger carrier group. Still, some people like the battleships, and the Desolator's the one to take if you're going to bother.
Well you say you're not me, and then you go and say something like this. Suspicious. ::)
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There is no way you can cross the Carnages T while staying abeam. You will either be circling each other, ie both abeam, or you will be closing. That's that.
if you come in at a shallow angle and the carnage tries to say abeam and circle you can close and maintain an abeam aspect. I do this all the time. It all depends on how you position yourself.
If you're not closing on the Carnage and you're attempting to obliquely cross the T there are only 2 directions in which you can do this; to the fore or aft of the Carnage. To the fore and the Carnage will either be moving into your fore arc to get a prow shot or if you're so oblique the Carnage can turn away so you're not closing the gap at all and both are simply abeam of each other (though the Murder out of range). To the aft and you end up circling. Either way, you're not shooting your prow lances, so one must wonder why you took the Murder at all.
But while doing so you're presenting a closing 5+ prow. So you will take more damage
Theoretically, yes, but since there really isn't a whole lot of 60cm WB in Tau, IN, Marines, Eldar, Orks, or Nids, you really don't have much to fear at 60cm. Everything else is lances and it doesn't matter. Basically the only time you have to worry about considerable 60cm battery strength is in a mirror match.
What? So you only have to worry about 60cm guns? Once you hit 45cm you're magically immune to them? You can somehow shoot at 60cm range without closing and the enemy can't close in return? Nids have 45cm range prow WBs that'll fuck you up. Tau have potentially range-ignoring 45cm forward guns. The IN have both the Oberon and Emperor, two very good stand-off carriers. Marines have great speed and bombardment cannons for which the only defence is to be abeam! You REALLY don't want to be closing the distance against them! As for Orks, you're moving directly into their torpedoes as well as cutting the distance (staying away is good!) and when they finally do get close you'll be closing, making those heavy gunz actually worthwhile! With Eldar aspect does not matter to them, they'll always count you as closing, but the Carnage has far better weaponry to deal with them! And then, on top of all that, you do have to worry about "mirror matches". Chaos is one of the most common fleets. Why would you make your fleet weak to one of the most common fleets around?
Carnages average 3 hits (which you say disparagingly) but 2 Murders in the same situation still only average 3 hits!
I say it disparagingly because that really isn't anything great. 60cm batteries are a crap shoot regardless of where they come from. My whole point was that the fleet puts out a considerable amount of firepower and is just as viable and effective as the "ultimate ship of doom" carnage fleet you have such high regard for; all it requires is a bit different play style. I've seen it used effectively just as I've seen carnages fall flat on their face time and again.
If the 3 hits from the Carnages "isn't that great" then how are the 3 hits from Murders any better? You think that the Murder is just as effective because it matches the Carnage in worst case scenario? What about the Carnage being twice as good in best case scenario?
I'm sorry that my experience doesn't meet your mathematic predictions, but that's what I've seen from facing the two ships over and over and no amount of theoretical conjecture can change that.
What you should be sorry about is letting your anecdotal experience blind you to the obvious.
Really, people should feel ashamed of themselves actually recommending Murders to new players. Not only is it much higher risk for extremely low reward (where there's reward at all) but the Carnage is much easier to use to full effect. You don't need to worry about working twice as hard to make it worthwhile taking.
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If you're not closing on the Carnage and you're attempting to obliquely cross the T there are only 2 directions in which you can do this; to the fore or aft of the Carnage. To the fore and the Carnage will either be moving into your fore arc to get a prow shot or if you're so oblique the Carnage can turn away so you're not closing the gap at all and both are simply abeam of each other (though the Murder out of range). To the aft and you end up circling. Either way, you're not shooting your prow lances, so one must wonder why you took the Murder at all.
Um... did I say I was doing this with a murder? I'm pretty sure that I mentioned I typically play IN and do this to the chaos player using the carnage. Which makes perfect sense since most of my weapons are port/starboard and my prow torpedoes just need to go off in the general direction.
What? So you only have to worry about 60cm guns? Once you hit 45cm you're magically immune to them? You can somehow shoot at 60cm range without closing and the enemy can't close in return? Nids have 45cm range prow WBs that'll fuck you up. Tau have potentially range-ignoring 45cm forward guns. The IN have both the Oberon and Emperor, two very good stand-off carriers. Marines have great speed and bombardment cannons for which the only defence is to be abeam! You REALLY don't want to be closing the distance against them! As for Orks, you're moving directly into their torpedoes as well as cutting the distance (staying away is good!) and when they finally do get close you'll be closing, making those heavy gunz actually worthwhile! With Eldar aspect does not matter to them, they'll always count you as closing, but the Carnage has far better weaponry to deal with them! And then, on top of all that, you do have to worry about "mirror matches". Chaos is one of the most common fleets. Why would you make your fleet weak to one of the most common fleets around?
Stop being dense. If you are closing at 60cm and your opponents are shooting 45cm batteries, it doesn't matter if your prow armor is 2+ since they aren't even getting to shoot you. I.E. it doesn't matter if you are closing at 60cm. You do realize that the forward arc on a shipis 45` right? You don't have to point right at a ship to still be in the forward arc. Obviously once you come in range you will have to account for enemy fire; I didn't think I needed to spell this out for you. (speaking of the oberon, I had one hulked in a single turn of shooting with 2 murders, a hades, and a repulsive... true, it was mainly due to a subplot that kept me from using SO for three turns so no BFI, but that's still considerably firepower from >45cm).
If the 3 hits from the Carnages "isn't that great" then how are the 3 hits from Murders any better? You think that the Murder is just as effective because it matches the Carnage in worst case scenario? What about the Carnage being twice as good in best case scenario?
What part of "just as viable" reads as better? And what's best case at 60cm? Shooting at something abeam? I've seen both of these fleets use and both ships taken many many times. The result has almost always seen the murder doing more than the carnage. TO account for personal preference and play style variations, I say both are probably just as effective and useful although they are different ways of employing the chaos fleet.
What you should be sorry about is letting your anecdotal experience blind you to the obvious.
You make me laugh Sig, really. So, you are really saying that real world experience and observation is only good if it supports your position? Last I checked a huge part of science was based on OBSERVATION. Would you really say that if a theoretical prediction doesn't match the observed result the theoretical prediction is infallible?
And for the record, I'm suggesting that new players try more than just one thing before they settle into a fleet. Either is viable and both fit different play styles.
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Theoretically, yes, but since there really isn't a whole lot of 60cm WB in Tau, IN, Marines, Eldar, Orks, or Nids, you really don't have much to fear at 60cm. Everything else is lances and it doesn't matter. Basically the only time you have to worry about considerable 60cm battery strength is in a mirror match.
says the guy who fields an empy and two vengances in an IN fleet.... hehe, sorry I couldn't resist...
well the best murder/hades arguement is admiral d's fleet which has a 'battery' of 3 murders and 1 hades (w/chaos lord iirc)... 10 lances is nothing to shun off... keep em moving 12.5 cm a turn on lock on and that's pretty deadly. you just have to distract the enemy with closer in abeam ships to draw fire.... like a carnage squadroned with an acheron....however... where is the AC gonna come from?
I back up the 4 (Hades+3 Murders) with a Styx and 2 Devs.
Yes, and I can't see Valhallan's concept of "distracting" fire from the Hades with closer abeam ships as being at all possible. Firstly, by nature, the Hades is going to be closer to the enemy than an abeam ship. Secondly, it's still just a leadership test. There's no way that I, as a player, would go zOMG!!1!one!! There's an abeam Dev nearby! Must shoot that rather than the much easier to kill and more heavily armed Hades!
i was thinking about a carny and an acheron... not some silly dev... but hey, this is exactly why i *don't* use murders/hades
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says the guy who fields an empy and two vengances in an IN fleet.... hehe, sorry I couldn't resist...
:P no, that's fair. I freely admit that I tend to play fairly atypical IN lists, but hey, they work!
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Hey Vaaish,
aren't you forgetting that if a fleet is prow on there is only a maximum number of two turns the Chaos fleet is firing above 45cm?
In lots of cases Chaos prow on gets on +45cm shot, then the enemy closes within 45cm and starts harassing the vulnerable 5+ prows.
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Horizon, no, I do realize that they only get two free turns of shooting before they get within 45cm. At that point you have to choose between going abeam and losing out on the prow lances or going prow on and taking the damage. One one one, that gives the carnage a 6wb edge, but calculated for the entire fleet, you lose around 4 wb going abeam from a carnage fleet.
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Um... did I say I was doing this with a murder? I'm pretty sure that I mentioned I typically play IN and do this to the chaos player using the carnage. Which makes perfect sense since most of my weapons are port/starboard and my prow torpedoes just need to go off in the general direction.
You said that you would close to 45cm range with the Murder, and that you could prevent the enemy from shooting at your soft prow. The response is the same whatever fleet you're trying to use to accomplish this miracle.
Stop being dense. If you are closing at 60cm and your opponents are shooting 45cm batteries, it doesn't matter if your prow armor is 2+ since they aren't even getting to shoot you. I.E. it doesn't matter if you are closing at 60cm. You do realize that the forward arc on a shipis 45` right? You don't have to point right at a ship to still be in the forward arc. Obviously once you come in range you will have to account for enemy fire; I didn't think I needed to spell this out for you. (speaking of the oberon, I had one hulked in a single turn of shooting with 2 murders, a hades, and a repulsive... true, it was mainly due to a subplot that kept me from using SO for three turns so no BFI, but that's still considerably firepower from >45cm).
Me being dense!? You act as if the enemy has no movement phase. You can just get to dead on 60cm from the enemy and they can't move 15 cm towards you before they fire their 45cm forward facing guns. You don't just have to worry about abeam 60cm guns, you also have to worry about forward 45cm guns.
What part of "just as viable" reads as better?
The part where you recommend the Murder.
And what's best case at 60cm? Shooting at something abeam? I've seen both of these fleets use and both ships taken many many times. The result has almost always seen the murder doing more than the carnage. TO account for personal preference and play style variations, I say both are probably just as effective and useful although they are different ways of employing the chaos fleet.
I call bullshit. There's no way that a Murder can match a Carnage under optimal conditions. And optimal conditions constitute using the defences column against any armour value or the next best column against 5+ armour or worse. I've crossed the opponents T to the aft at close range with Carnages several times, sometimes on LO and sometimes with the double range shift. The damage they put out far surpasses that of a regular Murder, let alone the gimped lance-variant.
You make me laugh Sig, really. So, you are really saying that real world experience and observation is only good if it supports your position? Last I checked a huge part of science was based on OBSERVATION. Would you really say that if a theoretical prediction doesn't match the observed result the theoretical prediction is infallible?
No, what I'm saying is that your anecdotal evidence isn't worth the paper it's written on. You only observe what you want to observe. You haven't collected data objectively or analysed why the Carnage performed less than expected. You have not provided a reason why the Carnage is worth less than the Murder. Without a counter-theory then it's all just RNG and therefore your anecdotal evidence is utterly worthless and you should not pollute these forums with it.
And for the record, I'm suggesting that new players try more than just one thing before they settle into a fleet. Either is viable and both fit different play styles.
You suggested the Carnage as a niche ship and the Murder as the mainstay. This is bad advice. The Carnage is the mainstay and the Murder is surpassed in all ways by other options in the fleet.
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Murder is mainstay in background story. ;)
Vaaish, the Carnage fleet can decide to stay at range and not be hit at all. ;)
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Murder is mainstay in background story. ;)
No doubt this accounts for much of the Murders' popularity. That and the simple attraction of long range lances (though anyone using BBB stats really should just take Devs instead). I should imagine that the purpose of veterans on forums like this should be to point out the flaws of the Murder and the recommend the actual strongest ship.
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Hey, you know me, fielding a tooled up Flame of Asuryan with maximum re-rolls in a 1500pts battle (that's more then 1/3 on one ship). ;)
And winning the game 'cause said ship is plain destruction to the enemy (and always has good dice, to me).
Ah... diverting.
I am not so against the Murder like you but I do acknowledge the Carnage is better. I mean, it is +10points so it should be better. Right?
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The question should be 'which is better at what'? Otherwise, why not just pick the most expensive ships because they are obviously better. The Carnage isn't better at everything over every other ship. Taking all Carnages makes your fleet good at what they do, but bad at what they don't. Even you two don't take only the Carnage.
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True enough, Pthisis, but everything the Carnage doesn't do, the Devastation does do. You pretty much only need the two. There are a couple of other ships that are occasionally worthy of inclusion (and you can build an entirely different type of fleet around, primarily, Slaughters) but the fact that you do need something other than Carnages isn't really an argument in favor of Murders: it's an argument in favor of Devastations, which isn't news to anyone.
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imo all you need is 1 carnage, 1 devestation, 1 acheron (squadroned with the carnage). that is the purest form of the staple of the chaos fleet, everything else just fluffs it up, or fills very specific niches.
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Vaaish, the Carnage fleet can decide to stay at range and not be hit at all.
the thing is this isn't true in practice. They might want to, but you can always find a way to close.
Sigororth, whatever. You are frankly just not worth responding to at this point since you seem to be making up whatever you assume I said rather than what I actually said.
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The question should be 'which is better at what'? Otherwise, why not just pick the most expensive ships because they are obviously better. The Carnage isn't better at everything over every other ship. Taking all Carnages makes your fleet good at what they do, but bad at what they don't. Even you two don't take only the Carnage.
Agreed.
True enough, Pthisis, but everything the Carnage doesn't do, the Devastation does do. You pretty much only need the two. There are a couple of other ships that are occasionally worthy of inclusion (and you can build an entirely different type of fleet around, primarily, Slaughters) but the fact that you do need something other than Carnages isn't really an argument in favor of Murders: it's an argument in favor of Devastations, which isn't news to anyone.
Agreed.
imo all you need is 1 carnage, 1 devestation, 1 acheron (squadroned with the carnage). that is the purest form of the staple of the chaos fleet, everything else just fluffs it up, or fills very specific niches.
Agreed.
Vaaish, the Carnage fleet can decide to stay at range and not be hit at all.
the thing is this isn't true in practice. They might want to, but you can always find a way to close.
I agree that there is no way to stay at range against someone who wants to close, at least not while being able to shoot. I think perhaps the point here is that if you're in a fight with two ships that both want to be abeam to shoot the one with the longer range will have the advantage by not having to close, so can stay at range. In the case of Carnage directly against a Murder, where you point out that a Murder is better against an abeam target than the Carnage is, the Carnage has range and so does not have to close. It can stay at range. The Murder does have to close, to at least 45cm, giving the Carnage the initial advantage. Then having survived that the Murder could stay at 45cm range, having the advantage over the Carnage. If the Carnage wanted to rectify the situation it would have to close to 30cm, passing advantage to the Murder (remember, small course corrections to create oblique approach angles can be countered).
So I think this is what Horizon meant. That the Carnage has the initiative and doesn't need to close (ie, can elect to stay at range). Of course, this isn't what he said and I agree with you that the Carnage cannot forcibly keep the enemy at range.
Sigoroth, whatever. You are frankly just not worth responding to at this point since you seem to be making up whatever you assume I said rather than what I actually said.
That's a little redundant, but we'll just ignore that. What I think you have said is that the Murder is a more reliable choice and that the Carnage is a niche ship. Your argument seems to rest upon the performance of the lance variant Murder abeam in the 45cm range bracket against targets using the far right-most column on the gunnery table. Your secondary argument is that lances are a more consistent form of damage.
My counter-argument is that the Carnage is easier to use (no need to even attempt to cut the range) and never has to use the right-most column except under very specific circumstances, in which case the enemy is equally effected or gives up the initiative by having to close to 45cm. Against highly armoured closing targets the Carnage drops some performance unless locked on. Soooo, at worst you're in the same spot as the opponent (Carnage mirror-match) or can pull out the same performance as the Murder (e.g., against IN, SM or Orks) or have the initiative (Carnage vs lance-Murder). So, in the worst case scenarios there's no reason to not take the Carnage.
On the other hand the Carnage has the potential to really shine, unlike the Murder. You come up against Eldar, Nids or a closing style Chaos fleet and you'll really be glad you took the Carnage. Even against one of the other fleets, since the Carnage does ok at range and out-performs the Murder as the gap between the fleets closes then it's still the ship of choice, making it an all-rounder.
Regarding the nature of the damage type, my argument is that the role of the Carnage makes its damage type apropos.
So if you think that I have misstated your position or that my counter-arguments contain some flaw, then point them out. If you think I have been too zealous in my position it is because this mistake keeps cropping up.
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Ok, I'll try to clarify.
What I think you have said is that the Murder is a more reliable choice and that the Carnage is a niche ship.
No, I believe I've been trying to say that the murder is a viable alternative to the carnage(i.e. can be used just as well as the carnage), but requires a different play style. I've not been trying to say "OMG TAKE MURDERZ, CARNAGES TEH SUXXORS!!!" although my experiences say that the murders have performed better on the table than the theoretical calculations say the carnage does when used against me. In a vacuum, one on one, perhaps the carnage would perform better, but in the real world setting on the table used in conjunction with the rest of the fleet, I've not seen this to be the case.
You seem to be saying, how dare you even suggest someone take a murder as it is obviously so inferior to the carnage as to barely even warrant mention of its name.
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Ok, I'll try to clarify.
What I think you have said is that the Murder is a more reliable choice and that the Carnage is a niche ship.
No, I believe I've been trying to say that the murder is a viable alternative to the carnage(i.e. can be used just as well as the carnage), but requires a different play style. I've not been trying to say "OMG TAKE MURDERZ, CARNAGES TEH SUXXORS!!!" although my experiences say that the murders have performed better on the table than the theoretical calculations say the carnage does when used against me. In a vacuum, one on one, perhaps the carnage would perform better, but in the real world setting on the table used in conjunction with the rest of the fleet, I've not seen this to be the case.
Your personal experience is obviously irrelevant. You could say "well, sure Planet Killers are theoretically better than Slaughters, but in my experience they're not, because when I played the Planet Killer I had it pointing the wrong way and it flew off the table without getting a shot off, but when I used the Slaughter I blew up an escort, therefore Slaughter > Planet Killer."
In other words, either your experience is based upon extreme stupidity on either your part or your opponents' in respect of the Carnages usage, or you need to get your dice checked to see if they have an extra 4 in place of a 6 or your Carnages really do perform as they should but you more often observe negative results with respect to the averages and so have a skewed view of them. If there is some reason why the Carnage should have performed worse than the Murder you have not supplied it. What you are doing is tantamount to suggesting that there is not an even distribution to the results of dice rolls. So 4's will appear more often than 6's.
You seem to be saying, how dare you even suggest someone take a murder as it is obviously so inferior to the carnage as to barely even warrant mention of its name.
This is correct. No reasonable person should ever recommend the Murder as a general core ship given the advantages of the Carnage. In the few circumstances where the Murder would do more damage it is minimally more. On the other hand the Carnage can potentially do a lot more than the Murder in certain circumstances. The Murder has a glass jaw, the Carnage is resilient. The Carnage can take on all fleets and excels against some far in excess of the Murder.
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In other words, either your experience is based upon extreme stupidity on either your part or your opponents' in respect of the Carnages usage, or you need to get your dice checked to see if they have an extra 4 in place of a 6 or your Carnages really do perform as they should but you more often observe negative results with respect to the averages and so have a skewed view of them.
And this is why you are incapable of useful dialog. Sig, you are very good with numbers, but things just don't get invalidated because you say so or because they don't fit your calculations. What I quoted is complete assumption based on your own beliefs as to what should or should not happen and anything that doesn't fit those parameters, regardless of source, is rationalized and chucked out the window. You do this every time something contradicts what you assume is the only possible outcome and it's the same thing as a three-year old sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!". I don't need to provide anything about the carnage when I'm talking about the murder. The point is the carnage performed in a way that wasn't very effective and my opponents effectiveness increased when he changed out to murders. That points to the murder being a useful and viable ship for my friend's play style. He's not alone either, D'Artagnan also has success using murders. Perhaps the problem isn't with the murder then or, since you've already determined the outcome and are virulently against murders, because you've never actually used one? (And even if you have, it's pretty obvious you haven't been using them "right" :))
If you want to have a reason why the carnage didn't perform as you expected, perhaps it has to do with me being abeam to it most of the way in and thus getting either 2 or 4 dice depending on BM and whether or not I was able maneuver so he had to shoot through gas clouds. It could be that I had a couple NC which far out-ranges him keeping him occupied at range or that my vengeance and emperor were the only targets in range when he was shooting. It could even be that he needed to maneuver and didn't lock on or had low leadership and didn't pass a command check. Actually, it's been all of those at one point or another.
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Alas, some opponents used Murders to no effect. But used Carnages to great effect. (1 Carnage taking down 6 hits of an AdMech cruiser in 1 volley).
I think Carnages are better as a single ship then the Murder. The Murder needs a sister ship to make its prow lances effective.
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Right on Vaash! Glad somebody else out there noticed how Sigi sets up straw men and substitutes his own reality. I don't agree he is good at math. So far all I'v seen him do is 3rd grade division.
But now he is backed in a corner where he can't admit the Murder is anything but worthless or he loses the argument, and he is the only one saying the Murder is worthless. Even others who prefer the Carnage don't back him on that.
I used to take lots of Carnages. My first fleet had 3. I always wondered why people we so scared because they weren't performing too well. Realized the Carnage was a bad fit for my strategy so I discovered the lance Murder variant. It out performed my Carnage.
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But, alas, now, FAQ2010, you can no longer take more lance-Murders then regular Murders. :)
And I still do not see the benefit of the lance murder in the complete fleet register. 4wb's is rubbisch as a broadside and lances come from other, more suited ships with better range.
The regular Murder is better then the lance-murder in that regard as 10wb is worth more then 2.5 times 4wb.
Three Carnages is too much. ;)
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Sigoroth is actually right about the personal experience thing: you might find yourself convinced that a ship is good or bad because you see it performing well or poorly on the table, but that's not good methodology. It shouldn't be convincing to you, and you really shouldn't expect it to be convincing to anyone else. Simply saying, "in my experience, Murders perform better than Carnages," doesn't contain nearly enough data to be useful to anyone, and while you might (might) have gathered enough data from the actual games in which those occurred for that observation to be useful to you, it isn't useful to us unless you actually present all that contextual data along with it, or we have an established faith in your observational ability (which, at this point, we have pretty good reason not to). Expecting anyone who doesn't know you personally (and, likely, anyone who does) to take that sort of anecdote as worthwhile evidence is obviously foolish.
Also, I basically agree that the Murder is rubbish. Lance murder seems to be somewhat less rubbish than regular Murder, but still, if you're going to suggest a staple Chaos cruiser, the Carnage should be your go-to ship--not the Murder--and for good reason. It's more powerful and less conflicted.
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Alas, some opponents used Murders to no effect. But used Carnages to great effect.
I don't doubt that in the least; that's why the overarching point of what I've been saying is to try out different ships and play styles when you are getting into the game rather than shoehorning yourself into a single mode of play based on theoretical calculation of probability.
West: When the point is to show that the murder can be used to good effect, observations of it's effectiveness on the table are a perfectly valid means of determining that and don't require extensive background data to be presented. What's the point in presenting fifteen or twenty battle reports when I already know that the canned response will be 1) your opponent is obviously an idiot and can barely tie his own shoes or 2) Your dice are obviously from a different reality that don't follow the correct mathematical probability. Right now you and sig are so entrenched in your position that it literally does not matter what evidence is presented contrary to that viewpoint as you will always attempt to rationalize what is presented in order to justify discarding it. Everything that's posted here requires a degree of trust to accept as fact.
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I am the opponent that Vaaish keeps referencing. I tried and tried to get carnages to work for me with no success. They seem too reliant of things going right for you....
Target closing
Locked on
Close range preferred
Staying abeam
Without these set of things, the Carnage doesn't really perform very well. In my experience even a semi-decent opponent can keep several of those things from happening for you, and hence the carnage turns into a very average (or even worthless) ship. The murder on the other hand sacrifices some maximum possible damage (compared to the carnage) and gains more reliability. The murder can perform well in just about any circumstance.
The murder for me is just a much more all-rounded solid choice. Granted one murder by itself pretty much sucks. When you get two or more together is when they really shine. I've lately been running the Murder/Murder/Hades squadron with devastating results (ask Vaaish about what happened to his Oberon).
To answer the OP's question.... The fleet I prefer at the moment is....
Planet Killer
Devastation
Devastation
Murder x3
A very easy fleet to use and packs a lot of punch. I know a lot of people on here don't like the PK or Murders, but this fleet has worked well for me so far. I tried the standard...
Desolator
Acheron x2
Devastation x2
Carnage x2
...and it really didn't work for me. I think it ended up being too passive for my play style.
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West: When the point is to show that the murder can be used to good effect, observations of it's effectiveness on the table are a perfectly valid means of determining that and don't require extensive background data to be presented. What's the point in presenting fifteen or twenty battle reports when I already know that the canned response will be 1) your opponent is obviously an idiot and can barely tie his own shoes or 2) Your dice are obviously from a different reality that don't follow the correct mathematical probability. Right now you and sig are so entrenched in your position that it literally does not matter what evidence is presented contrary to that viewpoint as you will always attempt to rationalize what is presented in order to justify discarding it. Everything that's posted here requires a degree of trust to accept as fact.
Your opinion of me, here, is really unjustified, and that's true in two ways:
First, my position is not that the Murder can't possibly be used to good effect. You're right in pointing out that if that were the point, your anecdote would be sufficient. However, that point is, itself, not sufficient. The question isn't whether the Murder can possibly do good things on the table. Obviously, it can. The point is whether it generally compares well to the Carnage--well enough to warrant suggesting it over a Carnage to the average new player who's asking for fleet-construction advice. On that issue, your anecdote is valueless.
So, sure. If you imagine my position to be something other than what it is--if you construct a straw man--you can sort of make it appear as though your anecdote constitutes a reasonable refutation of my position. Your anecdote doesn't address any of the assertions I've actually made, though, so I no--it's not really worthwhile.
Second, I'm not so set in my ways that no evidence could possibly sway me--I'm just set in my ways enough that worthless evidence won't sway me. Some good evidence has been presented in this thread--and it did have an effect on my opinion. Your anecdotes, though, are not good evidence, and so they have not. Again, expecting otherwise is just foolish--even if your mistake is in imagining that I meant to be arguing some point other than what I've actually been arguing.
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By the way.... The bickering in this post is fairly annoying. A key thing yall are missing about the murder/carnage.... THEY USE THE SAME MODEL. So switch it around and find out which you like best. It's not like you're stuck with whatever choice you decide. Pretty much every chaos list will have at least 2 carnage or 2 murder, so just try it both ways and see what works for you. Part of the FUN of this game is building a fleet that fits YOU, not some other guy on a forum that sounds smart....
Example: horizon's chaos fleet. Most would call it terrible, but he enjoys playing it, and apparently has decent success with it.
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West:
This is what I said.
No, I believe I've been trying to say that the murder is a viable alternative to the carnage(i.e. can be used just as well as the carnage), but requires a different play style. I've not been trying to say "OMG TAKE MURDERZ, CARNAGES TEH SUXXORS!!!" although my experiences say that the murders have performed better on the table than the theoretical calculations say the carnage does when used against me
that's why the overarching point of what I've been saying is to try out different ships and play styles when you are getting into the game rather than shoehorning yourself into a single mode of play based on theoretical calculation of probability.
This is what you just said:
First, my position is not that the Murder can't possibly be used to good effect. You're right in pointing out that if that were the point, your anecdote would be sufficient.
My apologies if you feel I'm lumping you in with Sig without cause, but past discussions have followed this pattern when evidence is presented. I am pointing out that the murder can be used to good effect based on my observations and that as such it is a viable alternative to using the carnage contrary to the virulent hatred that the murder seems to inspire. It's what I've been saying over and over.
You seemed to be following a similar pattern to what I've seen from Sig in the past so I grouped you in with the explanation of why I think you are totally off base to discount experiential knowledge.
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I am just starting to think the Sigiroth doesn't even play this game.
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I have the same feeling. He claims to be a veteran player but his arguments rely entirely on math and lack any context in game. Its like he has a book but hasn't played.
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Untrue statements on both accounts. (T&P).
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Sigoroth is almost always correct in his assessments, and in this case I agree with him 100%.
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Yup, quite a lot yes.
Though in this case I do not agree 100% since I do not think the Murder is worthless, but do acknowledge the Carnage is better.
The psychological effect of Murder-Murder-Hades having 8 lances @ 60cm, easy to lock on/use is not to be underestimated.
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No, not worthless, but not as capable as the other options.
If firing at 60cm at an incoming IN fleet, those 8 locked on lances will be facing down an equivalent of 18 torpedoes coming the other way. Thanks to the closing profile, even from 60cm range the IN fleet can close enough to put them in an unavoidable position that require intercepting by fighters or the sacrifice of an escort. Unintercepted, those torps will do more damage past shields than the lances.
Then when you go abeam you are then stuck with an inferior broadside (FP10) to the IN's FP12. Murders are inferior in every respect to their IN counterparts save speed and range. IN ships are actually more manoeuvrable thanks to their smaller minimum turn distance. Thus closing with them and throwing away all advantage is a losing equation.
The better recommendation is the Carnage, which in an abeam profile is less easy to hit with torps, less vulnerable to WB fire, andcan maintain its advantage for longer - even at close range its ability to focus fire maintains an advantage over its IN counterparts.
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And that, really, is the point: not that the Murder is worthless garbage, but that it just isn't as good a general recommendation as the Carnage. On that point, anecdotal evidence really doesn't constitute a compelling argument.
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@ RcG,
that's a bit simple.
Imperial Navy: 18 torps is 3 cruisers is 3 waves is thwarted by 3 fighters.
Imperial Navy needs to close to get in range (30cm), AAF adviced.
Imperial Navy 6+ prow is not much vs 8 lances.
10wb is indeed less then 12INeqv but 10wb has +15cm range.
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But the Murders do not have the capability to deploy fighters themselves, and if they have separate carrier support, so too can the IN have carrier support and/or screening waves of torps.
AAF does not reduce the effectiveness of IN prow weaponry, which assuming a start from within 60cm (fired on by Murders), allows them to close an average 34cm to well within shotgun range with no chance of intercept. Even assuming that one of the IN ships is forced to brace/cannot get into range/is intercepted, the two other ships by themselves are rolling 10D6 after turrets against 5+ ignoring shields and hitting subsequent targets vs the Murders' 12D6eq against 4+. By themselves those 2 ships have nearly equalled the Murder's damage past shields.
Following that, the range is already 30cm, and due to the angles involved it will inevitably get closer. At such close range the murders will be outgunned and outmanoeuvred and expose their vulnerable prow to IN broadsides. The IN holds all the advantages and none of the weaknesses now.
Contrast the Carnage. An abeam profile allows it to:
Follow an oblique withdrawal, slowing the enemy rate of advance.
Lead the enemy fleet, thus slowing its advance.
Less vulnerable to torpedoes fired from beyond shotgun range.
In addition, its ability to focus its firepower means that unlike the murder, it will outgun the closing imperials until they break the line - further slowing the moment when the advantage is given up.
So the Murder gains no advantage against imperials by closing, and almost actively seeks to lose its natural advantages in doing so. The Carnage makes best use of Chaos's natural advantages and hangs on to them much longer.
I'm not saying the murder is useless - it's cheap and has reasonable range. If it hangs back in an abeam profile it has a reasonable chance of converting tis range advantage into a victory over its IN counterparts. But using the prow weaponry is asking for trouble, and if you're going to hang back the Carnage is better by miles.
And that's just against IN! Against Orks you want to be close even less than against IN. Against Eldar those lances are useless, whilst the Carnage is a born eldar-killer. Against Ad Mech, Carnage or Slaughter Chaos you are saying "yes I DO want FP16 across my 5+ prow!" whilst even against Murder-Chaos you'd be better off abeam than facing down long range WBs with your prow. Only against Necrons do long range prow lances come in useful, and you're STILL exposing your prow to Lightning Arcs.
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Only against Necrons do long range prow lances come in useful, and you're STILL exposing your prow to Lightning Arcs.
Like Eldar, Necron weaponry counts all ships as closing, so it doesn't matter what aspect is taken, as far as the gunnery table goes anyway.
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Why are you guys arguing about this? It all really comes down to this:
Murder is 170 points.
Carnage is 180 points.
The ship worth more points is a better ship one on one. On the other hand, the Murder is picked more often as a staple to the fleet because:
1. The fluff says so.
2. The psychological barrier of spending points.
This whole... discussion... is pretty pointless. We could sit here and argue tactics all day, but the fact is there are a near infantismal ways of playing the game BFG. People have used Murders effectively and people have used Carnages effectively. Just as people have used Devastations and Slaughters effectively.
Can this just kinda.. end?? I'm tired of seeing bickering and nonsense on these boards, especially with some new names in the discussions.
-Zhukov
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Fair, but what is "infantismal?" Is that "infinitesimal"--meaning "immeasurably or incalculably small?"
I think there are actually quite a few ways of playing BFG.
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Fair, but what is "infantismal?" Is that "infinitesimal"--meaning "immeasurably or incalculably small?"
I think there are actually quite a few ways of playing BFG.
I think he means infantismal as a yoke of infant and dismal, thus there are "whiny baby" ways of playing BFG! ::)
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Hm. That could be it, I suppose.
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But we all know what Zhukov meant. There are a lot of strategies to choose from in BFG and as different ships are better at certain tasks than others, it makes sense that a ship you don't like may actually be pretty good when used in a different context.
For example, I keep hearing about how you have to get close in to IN because they can AAF and shotgun torpedo you first turn and then you can't get away. Orks can do the same thing (really really well). Sigiroth brought up the same issue in the dice probability thread.
Seems like a bad idea to me, since even if you get a turn before they come at you they can clear CAP off one ship and aim all the torpedos at it. This would be even worse with Carnages because they have to be squadroned all together to avoid right column shifts due to blast markers. If the IN targets a Carnage with the torpedo shotgun, you have the rotten choice of letting the Carnage die (1st turn, yikes!) or bracing to save it but nerfing your gunnery for a crucial turn.
Also, getting in close and fighting at broadsides against Orks or IN with Carnages seems like a bad idea as well for the same reason. You can't brace if one ship is going to take a beating.
These tactics don't appeal to me as I'm not a risk taker.
Thing is, I don't play that way. I don't deploy at 60cm away from the IN. I deploy abeam 75cm away from the IN fleet. Even if they roll all 6s on their AAF, I'm still at least 1cm out of range for a torpedo shotgun (unless somebody is fudging it). So this gives my opponent two big decisions to make: Do they AAF or not and do they launch torpedos or not?
If they AAF and launch, I move around their flank and lance the nearest ship. As I move a bit closer they will likely be in 45cm range and could be either abeam or closing. As I have to turn, I can't LO, so the Murder gets better performance than the Carnage at this range. I launch enough fighters to swat down any torps that would be hitting me in the ordnance phase and give CAP on the likely targets of topedos the next turn. The rest are assault boats to park in the way of the near ships so they either run into them, have to turn bad to avoid them, or have to use up fighters instead of putting them on CAP. The next IN turn they have to RO (and I didn't go on SO at all), deal with my assault boats and turn into me to fire torps. Thing is that the ships farthest away from me probably don't have a good bead on me without firing through their own ships, so they either have to forgo some of their torpedo fire or spread their torpedos out. Either way, I've just avoided the shotgun and done some damage.
If they AAF and don't launch, I LO and fire away. They have a good chance of arriving inside my 45cm band. Then instead of launching fighters for CAP I send out waves of assault boats and sit in front of their ships. They can either move forward into my assault boats or stay back. As my assault boats moved 30cm, if they don't touch my waves then they are out of range for torpedos since both ABs and torps move 30. If they do touch my ABs (I take space marines), then there is a chance they will have their prow armament disabled and can't launch torps anyway. This isn't a dodge of the shotgun per se, but it reduces it's effectiveness and I get to cause a lot of damage and havoc in their fleet... which sets me up well for the next turn.
If they move forward and launch torpedos, then I swat the torpedos and LO. There's no chance of them shotgunning now because next turn they can't both AAF and RO.
If they move forward and don't launch torpedos, then I know they may try to shotgun the next turn. In this instance I usually move 25cm straight ahead and turn at the end of my move. I may AAF some ships in the rear of my formation. If they AAF they can't turn to face me to launch them shotgun style, and will be so close I won't be in their forward arc. Maybe I'll be in gunnery range, but their weaponry is halved. If they don't AAF I will still be out of torpedo range (75-40 is 35). Then I can LO and cause havoc with my assault boats same as above.
When a Chaos fleet is turning around a flank wide like this, usually their opponents have to make some tough choices for SO to try and keep up and get their weapons to bear. Do they RO, CTNH or Fire Retros to keep me from getting behind them?
So essentially I dodge the shotgun or counter it while setting myself up for the rest of the game. In case my positioning is bad, my Murders don't have to be squadroned to be effective, so I can brace one without bracing the rest. Most of this fighting is going to be done in the 30-45cm range because the IN or Orks is trying to get to 30 to torpedo me and I'm trying to stay just out of range. Once I'm around their flank they have functionally the same turn radius as I do and will find it hard to get in close. After I come around the back, then I can sometimes get to use my prow lances in addition to my side armor. Abeam at 45cm is the sweet spot for the Murder, and I believe Chaos in general, and the lance Murders have some mathematic advantages over the Carnage at this range. I'm abeam the whole time so nobody is getting closing shots on me.
I play this way. This is why I prefer Murders.
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Heh, always these people talking strategies for the cruiser clash scenario.
Tssk tssk.
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@Phthisis
75cm does not put you outside extreme shotgun range. Max speed (44) + torp speed (30) + target base (1.5cm) = 75.5cm. On top of that is the width of the torpedo marker and firing ships base if you're playing by original rules.
Also, sure, you can set up at 75cm sometimes. Other times you'll necessarily be closer. But it's hardly important. If I'm the IN player then I simply move to 60cm out. You can keep the distance and shoot or turn away and put yourself outside your own gun range by up to 10cm. Of course, if you do you're going to end up being chased and running out of room. If you maintain your range to be able to shoot then it's yet again the AAF/shotgun scenario.
As for "flanking", that whole bit is just a load of crap. You might be able to pull off that sort of manoeuvre if you're Necron. Chaos certainly doesn't have the speed for it.
Also, where on earth did you get the idea that I said that you had to close against IN? I said that as the game progresses you will get close. There's nothing you can do to avoid this. The ranges will drop. This is not what you want to do however. By using Murders you play into the hands of the IN fleet by using closing ships. Even if you're using them abeam like a Carnage, then the Carnage has more range and more firepower when it does drop down to 45cm. If you're using the lance variant Murder then it's very nearly the same firepower in the 45cm range bracket as a Carnage, but when you get down to the 30cm range bracket (and yes, you will), the Carnage has more firepower and when the opportunity arises you can move in for the kill with a Carnage. If I'm playing against Chaos I'm afraid of getting close to Carnages. I'm not afraid of lance-variant Murders at all.
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@Sigiroth
I said that you said Chaos has to GET CLOSE not that we have TO CLOSE. You are saying its impossible to stay more than 30cm away, arent you?
Maybe I'm wrong but so far I haven't seen this happen. Lets say that I pass a IN cruiser abeam at 35cm and start to circle it around the back. How does the IN cruiser get to within 30cm so that I can't keep my distance?
There is a .08% chance my opponent will roll 24 for movement. I'm not worried. I could set up at 76cm just as easily.
If you move to 60cm in order to AAF and shotgun I will AAF, CTNH or FR in order to place my ships where they will likely be out of your fire arc and I can place assault boats in your way to make you choose between not going on AAF or taking a bunch of criticals, possibly losing your prow armament.
At 30-45cm, Murders have 2 lances and 1 WB, Carnages get 3WBs. Murders are better in every way at 30-45 and even better on LO. If I can stay there, which I have done so far, I can avoid enemy fire and perform better than the carnage.
If I'm playing IN, I know the Carnage is nastier than I am at close range so its my prime target. But since you have to squadron them for them to be useful you can't brace. So my strategy is to force you to brace or lose your Carnage.
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Weird phthisis, I am really wondering how your games go. They don't seem to make sense at all to me. IN or Chaos wise.
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I'm happy to answer any specific questions you have. What part sounds strange to you?
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Well, first of all: scenario selection. We do not always play cruiser clash ya know.
Imperial Navy cruisers have a shorter turn range, thus can turn easier into you. If you keep moving away you are setting him up for AAF in your rear.
Quite weird also:as Chaos you prefer Murders, as IN you fear Carnages more.
So you are saying that when you play with IN you can come within 30cm but when you play with Chaos your opponent cannot.
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Oh, that. We play cruiser clash a lot because it's our favorite mission. Both sides have equal points and is pretty easy for pick-up games.
IN cruisers and Chaos cruisers both have to move 10cm before they can turn. Chaos usually has to move an additional 2.5cm after their turn. The IN can make a tighter turn, but since the Chaos cruiser is on the outside of the turn, a tighter turn just keeps the IN cruiser farther away from the Chaos cruiser. Both ships can make their full move before they turn. For IN it's 20cm and turn 45. For chaos its 25cm and turn 45. The Chaos cruisers can keep a wider turn and therefore the IN cruiser can't ever close the distance.
Can you describe to me how an IN cruiser can AAF behind me while we are circling?
I don't play IN. What I was saying is that the Carnages are a better target because of 2 factors. First, it has to move inside the INs gun range to be truly effective. Second, you have to squadron all the Carnages together so I'm either getting some easy VPs by focusing firepower on one or I'm making my chaos opponent brace with a lot of ships simultaneously and significantly reducing his offensive power in the following turn.
Murders can operate outside of 30cm, which is outside of most IN cruisers range. Its harder for IN to concentrate fire on Murders and if there is enough firepower to make one Murder brace, the rest are unaffected and still able to fight at full power. So a group of Murders are more survivable/more effective at close range and can engage better at long range.
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@Sigiroth
I said that you said Chaos has to GET CLOSE not that we have TO CLOSE. You are saying its impossible to stay more than 30cm away, arent you?
Again, no. Chaos doe not have to get close. They will get close. It is the enemy that has to close. It will happen as a matter of course. There is no way of staying at range.
Maybe I'm wrong but so far I haven't seen this happen. Lets say that I pass a IN cruiser abeam at 35cm and start to circle it around the back. How does the IN cruiser get to within 30cm so that I can't keep my distance?
Firstly, I have no idea how an IN player could possibly get themselves this far out of position. It doesn't matter anyway, since one BR would break the circling quickly.
There is a .08% chance my opponent will roll 24 for movement. I'm not worried. I could set up at 76cm just as easily.
I was merely correcting your mistake, not commenting on the likelihood of rolling all sixes.
If you move to 60cm in order to AAF and shotgun I will AAF, CTNH or FR in order to place my ships where they will likely be out of your fire arc and I can place assault boats in your way to make you choose between not going on AAF or taking a bunch of criticals, possibly losing your prow armament.
Assault boats are so naff. I would not be concerned about them at all. If you take a prow system off-line, oh well, I'll fire those torps later. Besides, my carriers would have launched fighters forward to clear CAP anyway. So whatever is left over from doing so would go to reduce your a-boat waves. If I'm really concerned by a particular wave, well, that's what Cobras are for. Oh, and there's no way you're going to get out of my front arc, no matter what order you use. All the IN has to do when they set up at 60cm is point themselves slightly leading your fleet. You can use your movement to avoid a straight line ram, not to get out of a firing arc.
At 30-45cm, Murders have 2 lances and 1 WB, Carnages get 3WBs. Murders are better in every way at 30-45 and even better on LO. If I can stay there, which I have done so far, I can avoid enemy fire and perform better than the carnage.
If the majority of your battles spend a majority of the time in the 30-45cm range band (which is just absurd) then the Murder is comparable to the Carnage. The Carnage still has better firepower at 60cm (since you're abeam rather than closing) and if the enemy cunningly manages to pull off the simple and actually gets closer to you then the Carnage is better. Even when stuck in the 30-45cm range band the Carnage can still actually exceed the Murders' damage output. You note that the Carnage only gets 3 dice from its 16WBs when using the far right column. Well, this is only against a single target. You will also get another dice against another target. So, assuming you're shooting at more than one ship per turn you get the same total average hits, more when on LO.
If I'm playing IN, I know the Carnage is nastier than I am at close range so its my prime target. But since you have to squadron them for them to be useful you can't brace. So my strategy is to force you to brace or lose your Carnage.
So, the Carnage is a threat but the Murder isn't? So why are you taking a Murder? If you're going to always be using the far right column on the gunnery table as you seem to suggest then why do you need to squadron your Carnages? You don't need to worry about clean shots apparently, since you're always using the far right column anyway.
The upshot is this, if the Carnage is sufficiently threatening to the IN to make them the target of choice and they have to form squadrons then they are more damaging than Murders. So if you want to take individual Murders and play them abeam like a Carnage for the trade-off of firepower for ... well whatever you seem to be getting out of that arrangement, then that's up to you. The Carnage however is the better ship.
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Ok guys...You won't convince each other, so just stop it.
Phthisis, you like the murder.
Sigiroth, you like the carnage, we get it.
Please just stop this useless argument.
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Infinitesimal, meaning immesurable, is obviously what I meant :P
-Zhukov
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Infinitesimal, meaning immesurable, is obviously what I meant :P
-Zhukov
Ya, ya, it's just that it means immeasurably small, which suggests that you meant that there's is only 1 way to play BFG. A better word to express your meaning would have been infinite (though of course that's not true, just a better expression).
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Infinitesimal, meaning immesurable, is obviously what I meant :P
-Zhukov
Not just immeasurable, immeasurably small ;)
But sure. I get it.
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Well I just ordered a Repulsive, 3 Cruiser boxes and an Infidel pack. So I am a few steps closer to playing again, just got to get the downloads and then print them.
:D
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Seems like a good way to start--Repulsive is the other supra-cruiser ship in the Chaos line-up that is clearly quite good.
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good buy. magnets are key, and highly recommended! repulsive is great, don't allow it to be isolated.