Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: Claus on June 10, 2009, 07:58:37 AM
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Hello gentlemen and maybe ladies ;)
I´m thinking already some time about this one.
Why the hell don´t we have a rule telling that you never can go below 1 minimum attack...whatever close combat situation you face ?
I mean ...it´s completely nonsense being attacked and not striking back.
I also were looking at the undead army:
This army is really poor....being a mass army and having no chance to get more then 5 characters by 2.000 points.
They desperately need also the permission to get a standard hero/mumie being no wizzard and allow to give commands not having restriction of 20cm. (also the character pack is fielding riders and mumies that would allow this)
Both propositions of mine would not impact game play to much and also it would not make the army to tough.
Regards
Claus
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Hello gentlemen and maybe ladies ;)
I´m thinking already some time about this one.
Why the hell don´t we have a rule telling that you never can go below 1 minimum attack...whatever close combat situation you face ?
I mean ...it´s completely nonsense being attacked and not striking back.
Actualy in friendly games I think we always have applied that rules anyway.
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I also were looking at the undead army:
This army is really poor....being a mass army and having no chance to get more then 5 characters by 2.000 points.
They desperately need also the permission to get a standard hero/mumie being no wizzard and allow to give commands not having restriction of 20cm. (also the character pack is fielding riders and mumies that would allow this)
Both propositions of mine would not impact game play to much and also it would not make the army to tough.
I would heartily disagree with this... The undead army is very strong. First, their special rules allow them to ignore terrifying enemies, and if positioned correctly, the more annoying aspects of shooting (e.g. drivebacks and the subsequent breaking up of brigades). Second, all the liche priests can cast "doom and dispair" fairly easily, making it hard for the enemy to get the jump on them. Third, its a very shooty army; the skull chukkas are especially deadly since they ignore armor. Fourth, the units are cheap, which allows for wonderfully high breakpoints. The army just does not go away. Finally, they have very good offensive units, especially the chariot. As long as the undead player can get these into action while protecting enough of the fodder to avoid breaking, he has an excellent chance of winning. 5 leaders per 2K points is plenty for this purpose. Even without chariots (heresy, I know), I've been able to win with/get beaten by undead with just their cavalry (if they attack first). I own the armies my wm group plays with, and I didn't get around to purchasing/painting chariots until recently, but the undead was still(!) an army that was regularly chosen.
Besides, they have units like the sphinx and the bone giant, which are quite fun. Carrion are fun and very useful in wiping out stray units/ungaurded artillery.
The undead general just needs to establish his priorities in moving his brigades around, and keep them from straying too far afield (as with any army, really).
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There is the "last stand" rule in the acient rules, where it says that a unit always fights back with 1 attack no matter what. (flank,terror, confusion, ...) I think that rule should be applicable for WM also.
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We always play the house rule that a stand always gets 1 attack no matter what.
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As units that are attacked to the flank don't get support anymore I think that would just be fair. And at least every unit would have at least a little chance to win any combat.
Would be ok by me.
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I applied it too
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Never applied it, but it seems fair.
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I always thought that was a rule, not just a house rule. Our group has played it that way.
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That was how the game was taught to me.
But other glaringly obvious errors were also taught.
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heh, I know what you mean... It's taken us years to get it right :-[
So no one disagrees with my assessment of the udead? I'm surprised...
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I agree with you about the Undead.
I always have a hard time to get around those multiple Doom´n´Despair spells.
That and their "kittens". :(
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heh, I know what you mean... It's taken us years to get it right :-[
So no one disagrees with my assessment of the udead? I'm surprised...
It doesn't help to have WMA/BOFA rules also floating around in the memory banks.
Perhaps I should print out the WMF rulebook on colored paper to help aid recall.
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Gentlemen ... I fully disagree with your comments on UNDEAD Army.
I played this army myself (very succesfully) and can tell you....the possibility to get 1 hero in addition is neccessary,especially if you play games below 2.000 points. (this was my first army I started playing Warmaster with.)
Undead are the only army restricted to a maximum of 5 Commanding characters when playing gamse up to 2.999 pts.....why ?
It´s not justified.
I proposed the usage of 1 additional hero (no wizzard) per 1.000 pts in order to give them the possibility go give more commands.
(maybe a hero with command value 7 only ... needs to be discussed)
I can tell you .... never won my games due to massive shooting, almost never were fielding catapults (standard troops are better), Sphinx is not worth the point value (my opinion)...4 mages gives a ratio of 2 succesfull "doom and dispair" spells per turn....don´t tell me this will prevent you from attacking.
I highly recommend to give it some playtesting.
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Btw Claus how do your undead units with a minimum of 2 attacks in profile get a 0 attack value in combat unless affected by some spells? Or you mean a general situation?
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I prefer the raise dead spell when appropriate.
It is a lot more effective than doom and despair.
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If you've been "very successful" with your undead, why do you need new rules? :P
Sure, the undead don't have initiative, but neither are they penalized for being within 20cm of the enemy, while their opponents suffer from the same proximity. Undead armies can get very large and command can be a problem, but why would you want to move up that spare brigade of skeletons close to the enemy? What good can it do besides getting ridden over by cavalry? As long as you can move them 1-2 times into some safe terrain, that should be sufficient. Then you save most of the command rolls for moving the important units into place (cavalry, chariots, the odd monster). The standard troops more there to keep the breakpoint up so the important units can get the job done. If the undead are relying on skeleton combat power to win, they're in BIG trouble. My point is, the undead have enough command to get the units that matter into action.
No one ever said that shooting is decisive; it gives you the ability to disrupt brigades and makes the opponent's command phase much more complicated. Same with doom and dispair: sure, you might only get 2 successful rolls, but if you affect the right units, it can disrupt/render less effective a decisive charge. Nothing is (or should be) 100% effective.
Sphinx is pricey, yes. I would hesitate to take it, unless I was playing orks - its a nice foil for a giant, IMO. I once played a game where a giant/spinx combat lasted 4 rounds. The cat died eventually, but the giant ended up hurt. Bone giants are less pricey and still cause terror. I wouldn't underestimate the chukka's: 6 armor-ignoring and confusion-inducing attacks are nothing to sneeze at. Aimed at a heavily armored unit (like knights) that can be decisive.
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Got to say, I do not think undead of either type need any amendments.
They play great once you get them figured out.
I struggle to lose with either vamps or TK.
Continual 'improvement' is what drove me away from WH and the lack of it attracted me to WM.
We are in danger of driving a way the few players that still play this game.
I know my play group isn't that impressed with some of the proposed revisions to existing armies.
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I am not too experience in WM to suggest a change or not in the undead rules.
But in my me humble opinion, as Azrael says, the lack of changes in the rules makes me like more the game. (that is how I see the matter).
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@Bel
The header of this discussion had not been selected well by me.
The "never go below 1 basic attack" was meant for any other army that can be targeted by confusion, terror.
@Undead army.
I don´t mean the Undead need go be powered up but it´s simply needs to be able to get at least 1 additional heror per 1K points.(my opinion)
This should be only a discussion point and of course ....playtesting will be neccessary. Also it should be an optional and playtesting rule first and maybe in some years it can become official one.
I´m also not impressed by some of the improvements proposed for several armies. Some are good, some are not good not bad and some I don´t like and will not accept in any game. I guess I have some experience in playing and I very fast can see the potential of an army.
(I´m still the one meaning that at V2.2 rules Daemons beat Lizzardmen Army ast they are tougher)
@Skull Chukkas.
If your opponent has magic with spells that can do damage then this Skull Chukkas are gone very fast. Also if you face flyers in your opponents armies it will be very hard to protect Skull Chukkas.
My usual set up for UNDEAD is Spearmen and Bowmen (more Spearmen then Bowmen) 6 Chariots, 2 Carrions The maxium of heroes + 1 Dragon. Sometimes I also take a Sphinx (not that I´m convinced about their ability...just like the model) or a Bone Giant.
Back to my Basic intention:
Why the additional hero.
Below 2000 Pts you get crazy with 3 heroes. Above 2.000 and below 3.000 pts as well as you desperately misss characters at this Mass army.
I´m still in favour of a solution to get a standard heroe without magic ability with command value 7.
@SpiritusX
The 1 Heroe per 1.000 pt for Araby Army is and official type off. Araby is allowed to take 2 per 1.000 pts. (Unfortunately it did not get changed so far) ::)