Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: scar face on May 17, 2011, 11:42:09 AM
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I've just started BFG with my friends and I've decided to use the BFG revised 'Maelstrom Incusion' chaos fleet. I've heard lots of debate on the forums about whether chaos fleets should be long ranged or close up. What do you guys normally use?
My 1500pts fleet will hopefully look as following:
Warmaster
Relictor battleship
Hecate heavy cruiser
Hecate heavy cruiser
Devestation cruiser
Slaughter cruiser
Slaughter cruiser
4 Iconoclasts.
I was also thinking:
Warmaster
Despoiler battleship
Hades heavy cruiser
Devestation cruiser
Devestation cruiser
Slaughter cruiser
Slaughter cruiser
Carnage cruiser
Which one would perform better?
My opponents will be nids, orks, 9 cruiser spam marines, imperial and eldar cruiser spam.
thanks,
scar
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Scar Face,
I'm glad to see some appreciation for my Maelstrom Incursion fleet. However you are building your list incorrectly. You need 1 squadron of escorts or 1 light cruiser for every cruiser you have in your list (not heavy cruiser). Also you need 2 cruisers (or light cruisers) for every heavy cruiser that you purchase.
So something comparable to what you have for your first list might be;
Relictor 360 pts (I think this ship is going to be 300-320 in an update due out later, but for now...)
Warmaster 75 +25 for additional re-roll
Hecate heavy cruiser x2 470
Slaughter Class cruiser x2 330
Heretic Class Light Cruiser x2 240
This would be an example of a mean closing list. I'd even consider putting a MoT on the Relictor for the improved weapons efficiency.
Remember that the BFG:R lists are unofficial and you will need your opponents permission to use them.
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Ok, thanks for that (I thought the one escort per cruiser thing was a typo because no other chaos lists have it).
There is also the ships of the gods list, so would you recommend using that instead, because I don't really want to have any light cruisers or too many escorts? The ships in the gods list are more expensive however...
scar
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The ships of the Gods is a Daemonship fleet. So if you want to play Daemons....
If you want to use few (i.e. no more than one squadron) of escorts or cls and still be playing 'regular' chaos then you should look at the 13th black crusade fleet.
The Maelstrom fleet is more of a pirate/renegades fleet (who prefer lighter vessels) with some CSM support.
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The ships of the Gods is a Daemonship fleet. So if you want to play Daemons....
What do you mean by this? Are they all daemonships?
scar
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Yep
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Would that type of fleet work well (all daemonships?)
scar
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In all honesty... who knows? It is far different than any other fleet in existence, and has received little playtest. Our only precedent was from old daemonships (which were poor) but with a whole fleet of them?
If you do try it out, tell me how it goes.
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Chaos ships do fine at long or short range. What they don't do well is mixed in with other vessels.
Compare a Lunar to a Carnage:
#1. The Carnage can put FP18 to one side, whilst the Lunar can manage just FP12 equivalent. So without other ships to interfere, the Carnage would defeat the Lunar in a duel, regardless of the range the combat was fought at.
#2. However, the Lunar has a total all-round equivalent firepower of 33, whereas the Carnage only has FP30. So if the Lunar surrounds itself with enemy vessels, it will do more damage than a Carnage in the same situation.
#3. When the enemy is in amongst you, the Lunar has its most vulnerable aspect covered by 6+ armour, which is equivalent to 5+ armour abeam - in other words, it doesn't care that the enemy has penetrated its formation. A Carnage in the same situation is likely to get its nose kicked in.
So you see, it isn't the range that matters too much. It's the risk that at close range the enemy will be better able to exploit superior total firepower and the soft prows of the chaos ships by diving through your formation. If you can prevent the enemy getting into your formation, it doesn't matter what range you're engaging at.
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Chaos ships do fine at long or short range. What they don't do well is mixed in with other vessels.
Compare a Lunar to a Carnage:
#1. The Carnage can put FP1816 to one side, whilst the Lunar can manage just FP12 equivalent. So without other ships to interfere, the Carnage would defeat the Lunar in a duel, regardless of the range the combat was fought at.
#2. However, the Lunar has a total all-round equivalent firepower of 33, whereas the Carnage only has FP3026. So if the Lunar surrounds itself with enemy vessels, it will do more damage than a Carnage in the same situation.
#3. When the enemy is in amongst you, the Lunar has its most vulnerable aspect covered by 6+ armour, which is equivalent to 5+ armour abeam - in other words, it doesn't care that the enemy has penetrated its formation. A Carnage in the same situation is likely to get its nose kicked in.
So you see, it isn't the range that matters too much. It's the risk that at close range the enemy will be better able to exploit superior total firepower and the soft prows of the chaos ships by diving through your formation. If you can prevent the enemy getting into your formation, it doesn't matter what range you're engaging at.
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Long range, definately. Range is the only advantage the Chaos fleet has. As a general rule, its a bad idea to get inside 30cm unless your opponent is crippled. Even then, its best to stay on their flank so you don't get caught in a crossfire.
The real question you should be asking is whether to run an abeam fleet or a closing fleet. So far your lists are a mish-mash of closing and abeam ships. I tried playing abeam and just got torpedoed to death. I now favor a closing fleet made up of a core of Murders with a Hades. Not only does the fleet adhere to fluff, but their combo makes a great foil. You have no reason not to LO and those lances put out a lot of damage. It will force your opponent to make hard choices on bracing.
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What do you mean by ships that are abeam and closing (I know what the actual rule is ;) , just what sort of ships do this for chaos?)
What is the best closing combination without murders, because I'm not a big fan of them.
On the same note, what's the best abeam combo?
@sigoroth: Well done, that kept the thread going... ::)
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Abeam fleet means you travel perpendicular to their advance. Closing means your fleet heads towards the opposing fleet.
If you don't like Murders then scrap the closing strategy. Go abeam.
I've heard of some fleets spamming slaughters, but that might not be a good idea with your opponent list.
Carnages are the solid abeam choice, with an Acheron for added punch. A pair of Carnages with an Acheron is a fearsome combo in a lot of situations. Or even just 3 Carnages. Those will pound an Ork Hulk into rubble.
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ive taken 7 slaughters in a 1500 point game before, turned out to be quite fun even if I did loose. Those orks never did think they could get beaten in boarding... turns out they were right.
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How did you beat the orks is boarding? What upgrades?
scar
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Mark of Khorne/Chaos Lords/Chaos Space Marines.
Double Tag Team boarding.
But if you get the Slaughters past the Orks prow you can be shooting at 5+ or 4+ rears. Oh the slaughter... lol...
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Chaos has ranged weapon as an advantage but do not let that range stop you from taking advantage of Chaos more dangerous advantage which is the number of WBs they have in the Carnage, Murder and even the Slaughter. Get them in there.
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Getting close is a bad idea unless theyre crippled or you know you will cripple them. With the exception of the Slaughter, the IN will be very close to you in terms of firepower at close range, plus they have better armor and torpedos. Range is your only advantage and you pay a premium for it. Plus Chaos is the most vulnerable fleet in the game. Stay far away and out of range if you can.
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ive taken 7 slaughters in a 1500 point game before, turned out to be quite fun even if I did loose. Those orks never did think they could get beaten in boarding... turns out they were right.
LOL - that's why Khorne is an important part of a unbalanced diet.
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Does MoK just double boarding value (no. of hits points) or the whole value (modifiers as well)?
Surely if it's just double boarding, then it's only like an extra few points above the opponent even without their turrets.
scar
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Getting close is a bad idea unless theyre crippled or you know you will cripple them. With the exception of the Slaughter, the IN will be very close to you in terms of firepower at close range, plus they have better armor and torpedos. Range is your only advantage and you pay a premium for it. Plus Chaos is the most vulnerable fleet in the game. Stay far away and out of range if you can.
No. Again, Carnages and to a certain extent, Murders, can operate in ranges more than 30 cm but to make the most out of the WBs, use all of those lovely batteries within 30 cm if not closer than 15 cm to eliminate issues like right column shifts. 2-3 ships with concentrated firepower of their WBs will decimate IN, even if they are in an Abeam profile. FP40 WBs for my MMH. So fun. So gloriously fun. Even more if you use Carnages. Do not let those ranges fool you. WB ships work best in 30 cm.
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Agreement with Admiral.
You're actually in pretty good shape at short range. What you don't want is enemy ships breaching your formation and firing at multiple targets. Obviously this is easier to prevent at long range, but some nifty manoeuvring at short range could be brutally effective.
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The advantage at close range with the Carnage isn't worth the risk. There aren't many Chaos ships that beat their IN counterparts at close range.
The only reason a Chaos cruiser can excell at close range is because of the long range firepower backing it up and all the longrange firepower beforehand.
Admiral's MMH only gets 30wbs, and they do well at close range because of the 8 lances that were LO for 2 or 3 turns before. But let's not let facts get in the way of his argument.
If youre going to do it, do it on the flank, not through the middle. And make sure you have good long range back up. You need to make sure the closest ship is crippled/braced so they can't hit back. Like I said.
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Chaos ships do better at close range than they do at long range. This is axiomatic. However, they do not necessarily do better than other races ships at close range, whereas they usually do better than other races ships at long range. Therefore in closing the range with a Chaos fleet you tend to pass the advantage to the opponent.
Of course, your opponent will be attempting to close the gap and so it will eventually pass to him. The damage you do at long range is meant to offset this advantage to a degree. Your choice of target, efficacy of shooting and manoeuvring will determine the outcome of this advantage shift.
For example, try to avoid letting the enemy split your line with gunships on LO with closing/away ships on each side at close range. You will lose. Also, do not waste long range gunnery on battleships. Basically, don't shoot at a BB unless you can predict at least crippling it if the opponent doesn't brace. Anything less and you're generally just wasting your firepower. If you have a choice between shooting at a closing Lunar or a closing Dauntless with your WBs, choose the latter. Very easy VPs and you get rid of a good deal of firepower on a fast and agile platform.
Lastly, be ready to pounce. Sure you may generally want to stay at range, but remember, your ships do better up close than they do from afar. So if you can power forward and get in a killing blow then this can often reduce the return fire drastically enough to mitigate any advantage your opponent would normally gain.
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The advantage at close range with the Carnage isn't worth the risk. There aren't many Chaos ships that beat their IN counterparts at close range.
The only reason a Chaos cruiser can excell at close range is because of the long range firepower backing it up and all the longrange firepower beforehand.
Admiral's MMH only gets 30wbs, and they do well at close range because of the 8 lances that were LO for 2 or 3 turns before. But let's not let facts get in the way of his argument.
If youre going to do it, do it on the flank, not through the middle. And make sure you have good long range back up. You need to make sure the closest ship is crippled/braced so they can't hit back. Like I said.
No you go through the middle so you can fire off both broadsides. If you're going to be charging headlong into the middle of the enemy formation, might as well make the most of it, get in the middle and have targets in all the arcs under LO. You will now have 60WBs and 8 lances firing at targets. Trust me on this one, I have done it. The risk is there but the return is also bery much worth the risk. That's how aggressively I play them.
I am not discounting the lances. Definitely use them on the approach. I am saying the WBs work better in the middle of the enemy formation in ranges of 30 cm and below.