Specialist Arms Forum
Necromunda => [Necro] Rules Development Feedback => [Necro] Experimental Rules => Topic started by: Ravendas on June 18, 2009, 08:11:29 PM
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My group is starting a new campaign soon, and I was wondering if anyone had ever heard of this? It is unofficial, and I hadn't heard any reports on it. It was found by a friend on another forum. This forum won't let me attach a .doc to this post, so here is the link http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CJZ5EOAJ (I got it from this link, it's safe, just a .doc)
Basically its a gang with expensive individual models that all have psychic powers, using the standard 4 Wyrd tables. I haven't gone over it with a fine tooth comb yet, but one thing that strikes me as terribly off balancing is the level ups for toughness and wounds. Toughness as the 6 and 8 50/50 skillups mean it would be as common as a WS or BS skillup for all other gangs (5/36 chance), and with their max of 5 toughness makes them hard as nails. Combined with +W needing a 50/50 chance on a 7 (1/12) means most models will quickly become multi-wounded 4t or 5t monsters.
Also, these have 2 listings for prices for each model. 150 or 130 for the magus? 110 or 100 for a basic model? 40 or 50 for the juve?
There would need to be limits as to how many of each you could take as well. Massing beastmasters would result in dozens of minions swarming the table for instance. Any thoughts/ideas for this?
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Add in on top of that they can improve leadership, making whatever scary wyrd powers they get more effective. Indeed the leader starts with higher leadership than the wyrd hired gun already. They can also gain extra wyrd powers.
Try not letting him use them. It's the same thing as the genestealer cults or the chaos cults that appeared in those mags. No balance to them.
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Yeah there's a fair bit of stuff in there that I'm not a fan of. Incidentally those rules seem are a lot more powerful than the other Wyrd Garthering rules featured in Citadel Journal. Here's (http://www.anthony-case.me.uk/temp/CJ18%20Wyrd-Gatherings.pdf) a link to the original so you can compare the two. If you really wanted to use some wyrd gang rules then I'd plump for those over the rules you've posted here, though personally I'd just start afresh.
I did playtest some simple Wyrd Coven rules a long while back and was surprised that they aren't quite as game breaking as I initially thought they would be, but only if you force a variety of power types and restrict numbers. Sure you'll roll up a couple of nice powers, but generally you'll get a variety of powers that don't compliment each other. You really need to heavily restrict juve wyrds though and I'd recommend you up all of their starting XPs since the more power rolls and advances you get the greater chance of you rolling up some very complimentary abilities.
One thing that could work really well is to randomise recruitment (perhaps not fully for the initial gang recruitment). So after each game you could only recruit a wyrd on a roll of 5+ (+1 for each wyrd that actively hunts for them as a post game action). The wyrd power type and fighter type is randomised with the fighter type being weighted towards regular wyrds rather than a juve so there's much less opportunity to balloon the gang and choose the best wyrd types. This would also nicely represent that wyrds aren't plentiful and don't exactly advertise themselves as well as juves generally not wanting to reveal or admit a power.
One last thing is that even with a gang full of wyrds the perils of the warp rules have a very negligible effect, mostly because the more grizzly results require you to fail an Initiative or Leadership test, so you don't really need any counter balances to this. Oh and possessed wyrds should definately be considered dead after the game (either that or they are whisked off to the join the Illuminati).
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Ant, that pdf is really useful. I like that list way more than the one I posted, it seems much more balanced. Just sent it to my friend for his perusal.
They kind of have random recruitment built in. You can hire the Awakening Wyrds (wyrd juves) that only start with a minor power. Then once they hit 21exp, they 'awaken' and gain a random tables power. I really like the idea of that. Also when they awaken, their price goes from juve price to normal wyrd price, just because their awakening is basically giving them a weapon or some other useful function, which a normal gang would be paying for in gangrating. Seems like the writer of that thought about a lot of the problems inherent in Wyrds.
The list also limits you to hiring 1 new wyrd per game, which I think is strict enough.
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Did you get anywhere in your campaign Rav? I'd be interested to know how you got on with a gang full of wyrds in terms of power level with the other gangs.
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Did you get anywhere in your campaign Rav? I'd be interested to know how you got on with a gang full of wyrds in terms of power level with the other gangs.
We've actually played 2 games using the Wyrd Rules that you posted.
Actually one semi-confusing part is that the Wyrd Leader has 3 toughness, the 'ganger' wyrds have 4 toughness, and the Awakening Wyrds have 3 toughness. Not sure if they should all have 3, or if the leader should be bumped to 4, or if it's all right as is.
Now, he played two games vs my scavvies. His 9 models vs my 13. His leader has firewall, then he took one of each power type as Wyrds, plus one extra telepath, then 3 Awakenings. Fire Wyrd has Fireball and the minor power that makes him run fast. His two telepaths have Mind Control and Terror, his Telekinetic has Crush, and his beastmaster takes the bats. His awakenings all have pretty useless minor powers, so they mostly shoot with their pistols.
The first game, his beastmaster rolled up 3 bats for the game, and those were actually his mvp. I underestimated their powers, and he was rolling ridiculously well for them. I think they took out 3 scavvies and a scaly... His firewaller was keeping his people safe, and splitting up my force pretty well, but I'd just make many of my scavvies go into overwatch, waiting for the wall to drop at the end of my turn.
His speedy fireballer gets into positions fast, and then tosses his explosive around really well. He is a pain, but my zombies drew out his fireballs, protecting my scavvies.
His terror telepath was a pain, because he could cast it most of the time, and it automatically broke my scavvies. They all have 6 leadership, so they rarely recovered afterwards. "Was" a pain, because he actually got possessed, then winked out of existence the very turn he was possessed.
His mind controller is of mixed used. He needs to pass a test, then I need to fail a test for it to work 100%. That's a pretty low chance. Even if I pass my test though, he pinned one model during my turn, making him miss that turn, and probably the next too (since he doesn't stand up at the end of my turn, because he didn't start the turn pinned). If the mind control does work, he makes one of my guys charge another. Whoever wins, I lose. We decided that any wounds a mind controlled model does is given to the Mindcontroller, for experience purposes.
His Crush telekinetic tears me up. Cover is useless against it, so even the best dug in group can get whittled away by it. Crush has done the most wounds of any of his powers so far.
Overall I'd say it's balanced, so far. However his leader just got +1ld at the end of that last game, bringing him up to LD9. That is an 83% chance to pass a leadership test, and he gives that leadership to anyone within 6" of himself. The Wyrd player is basically going to form a core of Wyrds around him, and melt/blast/psych his way through anything, or at least is his plan. We had pretty balanced games, with him controlling the field with firewall, while I split up my forces to prevent him from bottling me up completely with it.
However he has had terrible luck with survivability. In 2 games, he has lost 2 Wyrds (beastmaster and terror), and an awakening wyrd. The Terror Wyrd was possessed, the Awakening had his head torn off by a Scaly, and the Beastmaster got bitten by a zombie... and rolled a 6 on his zombie sickness test... Terrible luck for him, I think he is down to 7 models in only 2 games.
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For the happyness of Ravendas I registered here too.
In my gaming club we had a guy who was interested in using a wyrd gang too, but we were trying to creating something more traditional (I'm watching the Codex Imperialis from second edition right now) shall I post our development here or shall I make a new thread? Or shall I just go back to my hole?
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Overall I'd say it's balanced, so far. However his leader just got +1ld at the end of that last game, bringing him up to LD9. That is an 83% chance to pass a leadership test, and he gives that leadership to anyone within 6" of himself. The Wyrd player is basically going to form a core of Wyrds around him, and melt/blast/psych his way through anything, or at least is his plan. We had pretty balanced games, with him controlling the field with firewall, while I split up my forces to prevent him from bottling me up completely with it.
However he has had terrible luck with survivability. In 2 games, he has lost 2 Wyrds (beastmaster and terror), and an awakening wyrd. The Terror Wyrd was possessed, the Awakening had his head torn off by a Scaly, and the Beastmaster got bitten by a zombie... and rolled a 6 on his zombie sickness test... Terrible luck for him, I think he is down to 7 models in only 2 games.
Spreading Leadership doesn't work, IMO. It works for Leadership tests, not psychic tests as psychic tests are a test of their willpower against the warp, not their leader's willpower just because they're standing next to him. It uses the leadership characteristic but is not a leadership test. As Outlanders is pretty poorly FAQ'd, especially wyrds, I can't point to an official ruling though.
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By the way, Ld9 is more than a Mighty Hero of the Scholastica Psykana has.
If a normal human can work up to be a Mighty hero of the IG (a Colonel)
| Profile | M | WS | BS | S | T | W | I | A | Ld |
| Colonel | 4 | 6 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 6 | 3 | 9 |
Then it stands to reason that the maximum stats for a psyker are
| Profile | M | WS | BS | S | T | W | I | A | Ld |
| Psyker Lord | 4 | 6 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 3 | 8 |
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Madness: House gangers can get up to 9LD, I don't see why the Wyrds couldn't. Doesn't really line up with the rest of the wh40k universe, but lots of things don't really.
Caelwyn: Really? They can't use his leadership for power tests? The wording just says that leaders give their leadership to others for leadership tests, and the psychic powers basically says 'test against leadership', so it's hard to say no to it without some faq ruling. Just to compare, Impressive Scars also allows people to control the warp better...
I'd say that the leader's mind is potent enough that he creates a small area of calm in the warp around him, allowing those near him to more easily control it. There is basically nothing in the faq as far as Wyrd powers go though, so maybe one day it will get looked at.
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That bit is from the codex imperialis, traditionally psykers can't get a too high Ld value, even Librarian Mighty Heroes weren't on par with other space marine Mighty Heroes.
They have a different progression.
But they can get a 4th wound. It's the same in the IG codex (page 20).
I don't pretend I know the reasons, but I guess they did it for balance. After all Psykers are abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and Squats, and they have different maximals.
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Okay, makes sense I guess. However the max stats on this Wyrd Gathering we are testing out actually has standard human maxes. 3W, 9LD... We never mentioned a change to it before playing, so we will stick with it for now and see how broken 9ld wyrds can be.
Especially a 9ld wyrd with a firewall, that likes to use it offensively. Most of my catwalks are about 1.5" wide, so if you have a model on there and he sends a firewall right down it, you are forced to jump off. Pretty good use of it, but it technically doesn't get him any wounding hits (or would it?)
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Well wyrds aren't abhuman in the ogryn sense, they are just mutants. Traditionally pyskers/mages have always had a Wound boost in W40k and WFB just to make their profiles more different from the heroes and lords. I don't think you have to carry that over to wyrds since they are just hivers not trained pyskers but I prefer capping their Ld to 8 purely for game balance.
Caelwyn: Really? They can't use his leadership for power tests? The wording just says that leaders give their leadership to others for leadership tests, and the psychic powers basically says 'test against leadership', so it's hard to say no to it without some faq ruling. Just to compare, Impressive Scars also allows people to control the warp better...
Yup officially you're right Rav. Fluff-wise I can see Caelwyn's point but personally I'd just leave it as is just for simplicity because otherwise you'd probably also have to question every other Leadership modifier like Impressive Scars and wildsnake. I guess you could argue that those around the leader would be a little more on their toes eager to impress.
In my gaming club we had a guy who was interested in using a wyrd gang too, but we were trying to creating something more traditional (I'm watching the Codex Imperialis from second edition right now) shall I post our development here or shall I make a new thread? Or shall I just go back to my hole?
Yeah go for it. I couldn't resist writing up some Wyrd Coven rules myself (link (http://www.anthony-case.me.uk/necro/Wyrd-Coven.rtf)) so I'd be interested to see if you came to any different conclusions.
We've actually played 2 games using the Wyrd Rules that you posted.
Sounds like they are hoot to play against what with all the different tactics needed to beat each individual wyrd and it's good to hear they appear balanced. Btw, the Magus should probably start with T4 as well. I'd be very interested to hear how you get on with them through the campaign, in particular the rarity and effect Leadership advances have.
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wow sir, wait there, mutant is a BIG offense. An abhuman is a (somewhat) respected member of the imperial society, a mutant is a heresy walking among us! Watch your language! ;)
I've posted my earliest developements in another thread, will add the fluff bits and something else later on. I included the whole developement, not just the results so you can see how I'm working on the material. I must apologize for my unintentional rudeness, but I won't read your Wyrd rules just yet. I have a quite clear vision, and I don't want it to creep elsewhere before I'm done writing what I have in mind right now.
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Hi guys.
I stumbled across the Wyrd Gang list the other day. Thought it looked great and then did a search for feedback on whether or not it's balanced and that's how I ended up here.
I've tried to downloaded the copy of the Wyrd Gang that Ant posted but I can't access it and keep getting a 404 error message. Would it be possible to obtain a copy of this?
Also, Ravendas, how have you found the Wyrd Gang as your campaign has progressed? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
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Oh it does look like it was removed from his site for now. I'd email it to you, but I'm on vacation for another week and a half, nowhere near my home computer.
Well in my short campaign so far, the Wyrd player has only played 3 games so far. The first 2 were versus my gang, Scavvies, and the 3rd was a big 2v2, his Wyrds and my Scavvies versus two house gangs.
Just doing this from memory, but I think his gang started something like this:
(i don't remember most of their minor powers)
Leader - Fire wall
Pyro - Fire ball + Time stop running power
Telekenetic - Crush + lucky
Telepath - Mind Control
Telepath - Scare
Beastmaster - Typically ripperjacks + Can't be possessed (doesn't use powers anyway, so this is a dud minor)
Then 3 awakening wyrds with pistols and non-noteworthy minor powers
He had a pretty nice allotment of powers, he tried to keep it diverse since this is the first time we are using them. His most often used power is Fire Wall, which can completely change the game. With that he can cut my force in half, prevent me from shooting his models when they are out in the open or outnumbered, and he even used it offensively, making my people dive out of the way... while on narrow walkways 6" up.
Fireball hasn't been very effective at all. With 7ld, you have a 58% chance of using your powers. That's a 3.5+ to hit, halfway between 3+ and 4+ percentage wise. So 3.5+ chance to hit flamer effect using a small blast at 24" sounds pretty decent to start, right? Well, it would, but I always kept track of that character, and kept a few Scavvy zombies between him and my main group, with the zombies safely apart. Since it uses shooting targeting rules, you must target the closest models, which has always been a single zombie at the front. Frustrating to him, but he probably should have used that speedy time lapse power to get into a better position.
Crush... this power is the bane of my eye-stalked mutant. You think you are safe behind cover? No way, says crush. Pick someone in range, roll a ld test, then 2d6 vs their str+d6. Difference is straight up number of wounds they take. He has almost always beaten my roll, leading to many casualties. First game he crushed 3 scavvies in a row, 2nd game I learned to fear him and stay out of his way, and only lost one.
Mind control has been useful in failing. It's very hard to work completely, requiring the user to pass a ld test (58% for 7ld), and the target to fail a ld test (42% for 7ld), for about a 1/4 chance of working. When it has worked, he made one man charge into another for some hand to hand fight. As he put it "whoever wins, you lose". However when this power fails, it merely pins the model. The thing is, you use this on the enemy's turn, so that model doesn't stand up at the end of their turn, they lose 2 turns unless they have someone around to help them stand up. To prevent this power from destroying my low leadership scavvies, I tried to keep a Scalie with ld 9 between the mind controller and the rest of my group, with a scavvie behind him to help the Scaly stand back up. Oh, we also ruled that any wounds caused by a mind controlled model is given to the mind controller for experience, since otherwise this model would never actually gain any experience, and it makes sense that his mind is in the person's body, so it is basically him fighting by proxy.
Scare is the bane of low leadership groups, like mine. Pass a leadership test, and the closest model within 24" (no los required, same for mind control) automatically breaks and flees. He would use that every turn, safely squirreled away in some building, and reduce one of my scavvies to a blubbering mess. They would take a long time to recover as well, with their starting ld of 6. Luckily this model got possessed the 2nd game, and burnt up immediately, leaving nothing but the scent of brimstone. I'd say scare is one of the better powers, but it doesn't give you any experience, so that character will be massively useful, and boring at the same time.
Ahhh, the beastmaster and his 3 ripperjacks the first game. I underestimated them, and he rolled extremely lucky for them. They ate the faces of 3 scavvies, a zombie and a scaly by the time the game ended. They are fierce, and if they manage to jump onto your face, won't be coming off without help from a friend, requiring even more manpower to deal with them. Shoot these asap before they eat your face. Luckily for me, in the 2nd game the beastmaster went down from a zombie bite, then rolled a 1 on the zombie sickness test, turning into a zombie himself! He hasn't repurchased his beastmaster, but he is saving up. They are really important. I'd say if you cheesed this gang and just went mostly beastmaster, it would be extremely difficult to beat.
Overall, given their costs and their chances of their powers backfiring and killing them, this is a pretty balanced group. We've only had 3 games though, mostly against my odd massive gang, so we haven't seen a straight up game vs a house gang yet to really test it out. Their problem is that since they are expensive, and an outlaw gang with unsteady income, they will be a small gang. Losses are pretty harsh as well, and even if you make a ton of money one game, you are still limited to buying one Wyrd each game, as they are difficult to comeby. I believe his gang is now down to 7 models, making each of his characters a lonely powerhouse. Wyrds can be played defensively, due to their telepath powers not requiring any LOS. You can just take up nice comfortable positions, and use the telepath powers on the enemy until they get frustrated and rush towards you. This gang also has tons of options, which are terribly random so it's hard to start this gang with any idea of a strategy until their powers are determined.
Oh, my last bit, their income will mostly go to the purchase of more members, since equipment is mostly lost on them. Their powers are their weapons, so you can save a lot on weapons. Just keep the awakenings armed with pistols, and your wyrds with powers that work on the enemy turn with rifles, and you are good to go. Even rare trade rolls aren't terribly useful for them.
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Wow! Thanks for taking the time to write such a comprehensive review Ravendas! Much appreciated.
I’ll keep an eye on Ant’s webpage. If however he doesn’t upload the Wyrd gang list would it be possible for you to e-mail me a copy when you return from your holidays?
I had plans for a mixture of different Wyrds, so similar in many respects to your friends gang. I also envisaged Awakenings with pistols acting as meatshields for the Wyrds & Leader. I like the fact that from your experiences so far they appear to be balanced overall. High cost and perils of the warp offset by potentially high damage output (as long as you don’t roll duff powers). I have a few more questions:
(1) With regards to beastmasters would you suggest that a limit to their number per gang or a limit per total gang members is required? E.g. 2 per gang or 1 per 5 other members?
(2) Would you recommend limiting the gang to a maximum size? Or do you find the perils of the warp, high points cost etc. sufficient to keep Wyrd gang numbers sufficiently balanced.
(3) Has your friend made use of the special weapon options (Autoguns, Lasguns etc.) that are available for Wyrds? Or has he spent his creds on hiring more Wyrds?
(4) How would you rank the various Wyrd types? Obviously beastmasters if abused are overpowered, but on individual merit have you found one class under- or overpowered compared to the others? Would you recommend buffing or nerfing any particular class or altering some of their major powers?
(5) Would you suggest any other alterations to the gang list as it stands?
Thanks once again for the review. It was incredibly useful and has made me even more determined to introduce a Wyrd gang to my gaming group!
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(1) With regards to beastmasters would you suggest that a limit to their number per gang or a limit per total gang members is required? E.g. 2 per gang or 1 per 5 other members?
(2) Would you recommend limiting the gang to a maximum size? Or do you find the perils of the warp, high points cost etc. sufficient to keep Wyrd gang numbers sufficiently balanced.
(3) Has your friend made use of the special weapon options (Autoguns, Lasguns etc.) that are available for Wyrds? Or has he spent his creds on hiring more Wyrds?
(4) How would you rank the various Wyrd types? Obviously beastmasters if abused are overpowered, but on individual merit have you found one class under- or overpowered compared to the others? Would you recommend buffing or nerfing any particular class or altering some of their major powers?
(5) Would you suggest any other alterations to the gang list as it stands?
1: If I was to make a rule, I'd say "You cannot have more than 1/3 of your gang from any one Wyrd type. This represents the complete randomness of warp powers, and the difficulty in finding others of their kind. If an awakening raises one type of wyrd above this limit, then you cannot purchase any more Wyrds of that type until they are again below the limit allowed". This makes sense, since a Wyrd gang should be a hodgepodge, since when finding other Wyrd allies, they are so few and far between they wouldn't be picky. However it still allows people to take more of one kind than statistics states, just to allow them more flexibility in their gang.
2: I wouldn't introduce a max size cap, just because they have a cap of hiring one wyrd a game. If they get devastated in a game or two, either from casualties or perils of the warp, they really suffer because they have to slowly build back up, and hope that they don't get even weaker in the process. I don't see them becoming a large horde gang, just because of this 1 per game bit, and the fact that their models are expensive and they are outlaws.
3: He gave everyone a gun of some kind, because not everyone's powers are useful all the time, and sometimes you just need to drop someone. Beastmasters definitely need a weapon of some kind, because they only have a minor power to work from. If my friend didn't take any weapons, he would only have had 3 or 4 models capable of dealing wounds at the start: his fireballer, crusher, mindcontroller and beastmaster's pets.
4: Beastmasters: Strong if they get lots of animals in a game, and the opponent ignores them. That's what happened to me, I didn't realize what a terror ripperjacks could be. However later on in a campaign, when people are more adept at killing, the animals won't make quite a big difference.
Pyromaniacs: Firewall is the best power here, with molten man coming in 2nd for me. The huge tactical advantage of the first, and the armor save and hth terror of the 2nd makes these great. The rest are variations of shooting, several being quite short range, which is okay but not terribly exciting.
Telepaths: Really great, just because none of these powers require LOS. These models will be hiding 95% of the game, using their powers from afar. Terrify autobreaks an enemy if you pass your ld test, which is really great. Mind control is difficult to get off, but can wreak havoc if it does work. Mental assault could literally create a 24" round nogo zone for a low leadership gang. Hallucination isn't too bad, if a bit random. The great thing is that hallucination power skips the toughness checks for the models, and just goes straight to the 'what happens' table. Mental strength is of limited usefulness to wyrds, just because wyrds don't depend on ws and bs as much as other gangs, and increasing one models stats is pretty small in scope. Best use is probably making him give himself toughness, bringing him up to 5-7 toughness, becoming an awesome bullet shield.
Telekinetics: Assail: Pretty bad, useful if you use lots of high terrain only. Hailstorm: Really random d6str 1-3 shot autohitting 'gun' at up to 24 inches in range. Decent, but not awesome. Crush: My bane. 24" range, autohitting, high chance of wounding power that ignores toughness... this power is great. Forcefield: Never seen it in use, but I'd honestly just pour fire onto someone that has it, just to cause a perils of the warp check or two as it activates over and over. This model becomes a bodyguard for someone with a better power. Displacement: Average length teleported is 10-11", goes through barriers, that's all pretty great. But Wyrds rarely have anywhere they need to be fast, so I'd say this is very situationally useful, but typically soso. Fists of Fury: Would be good if the wyrd that had this had any kind of backup in hand to hand. Perhaps he could team up with the beastmaster pets or the new awakenings, but solo he would still get shot up before he made it into hand to hand.
That was longer than I originally thought... Basically, I'd say no power sets are weak, just some power sets have weak/situational powers. I wouldn't change anything.
5. I don't have the pdf on me at hand, but I remember that the leader has 3T, whereas a normal Wyrd has 4. That has to be an oversight, he should have 4T as well. Besides that, I'm a fan of this ruleset so far, nothing glaring has come up yet.
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Hi guys.
I stumbled across the Wyrd Gang list the other day. Thought it looked great and then did a search for feedback on whether or not it's balanced and that's how I ended up here.
I've tried to downloaded the copy of the Wyrd Gang that Ant posted but I can't access it and keep getting a 404 error message. Would it be possible to obtain a copy of this?
i get a bunch of gibberish. well, not quite. i get what appears to be all of the instructions to the browser on how to display the site, which comes out *looking* like gibberish. on the upside, i also get the text. i'll do my best to transcribe for you and message it.
(actually, i get that result for every article on his page... not sure why...)
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Hey thanks Shark Force! Much appreciated.
I also e-mailed Ant & he sent the me list through a word .doc. Looks very good. I'm gonna show my gaming group today and get play testing asap.