Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: jchaos79 on June 23, 2009, 12:28:39 PM
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I start this new topic to show the percentage of success with my armies. And encourage you to post yours.
The percentage of success is made counting the a simple relation between the battles played and the games won. All you have to do is have written down the games.
My list is that follows:
WMF:
Dwarfs 71% games won
Chaos 70% games won
Undead 66% games won
High elves 62% games won
Empire 40% games won
Orc and goblin 0% games won
AWM:
Hittites 50% games won
Egyptian 42% games won
Sea people 100% games won (this list is a homemade list)
I do not design my list too much, I am more impulsive to buy, paint and play as my wish. So there maybe there are not perfect balance. But tired of get beaten with my orc and goblin army actually I am reinforcement it. My next project is the undead, because I actually play with other painted figures to test the army.
How do you see the ranking?
Is similar to your experience?
Do you see something really odd or it is the expected for you?
Do you think that stadistic is always a lier tool?
post your impresions and your rankings (if you wish of course ;) )!
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The rankings would be a little more interesting if we also had an idea of how many games were played with each army. A 0% games won doesn't mean much if there was only 1 or 2 games played, same as a 100% games won.
Give us an idea there and then it'll be easier to say something. Still, I do like the idea, and I seem to recall there once was a website that was tracking this stuff. Sadly, I don't know whatever happened to it.
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Yep, Alex_Knight, you are so right, stadistic are false friends sometimes,
The chart is that follows:
Dwarfs 5 of 7 71%
Chaos 7 of 10 70%
Undeads 2 of 3 66%
High elfs 5 of 8 62%
Empire 4 of 10 40%
Orc and goblin 0 of 8 0%
Hittites 3 of 6 50%
Egyptian 3 of 7 42%
Sea people 1 of 1 100%
Stadistic tell my that I did not feel the real waaaagh when playing :P (and also that I must paint more orcs and less goblins :o) But goblins are so damn funny!!
I have read somewhere that dwarf army is hard to play and always is beating up when playing against experience players. Well; For sure stadistic tells me that is not my case (being a experience player).
I have read somewhere that undead is the "ferrari" of the game wictory is fact, but also read in other place that is hard to win with this army. I have not play a lot but stadistic tells me that is a very powerful army.
This reading of the data is of course valid for my way of playing and my armies. And of course stadistic used to lie, but when the population of data is high and mixed with other players (other ways of games and armies) could be close to reality.
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Hi.
I don´t think it´s a good idea to do percentages like this as it allways depends on.....
1) how skilled you are as general
2) how skilled your opponents are
3) Did you start recently to play this army
4) which rules did you apply (house rule, V2.2., Trial rules...etc.)
5) Point sizes you played (HE are really powerfull in games below 2.000 points....above that value other armies are becoming better)
....etc.
I give you 3 examples.
Daemon army
4 years ago I started playing Daemon army and lost quite often in the very beginning as where not skilled enough to use this army. After this period I became very succesfull using it and did not lose any game during one year (around 40 games) against skilled/experienced players and finally we started to modify rules of that army as it was obvious that in hands of a skilled player this army is almost unbeatable (More powerfull then Lizzardmen) I could demonstrate the power of this army at 2 Euro GT´s and had the chance to play against other skilled international players (only LEX is missing in my list)
My percentage Win/to loss rating for this army would be around 85-90% during last around 90-95% over the last 3 years and around 75% over the last 4 years (including my starting year).....you see how different figures can loook.
Orc and Goblin army
From time to time I play this army but I have to admit that I´m not to succesfull acting as Big Black Orc (general) of this army. It´s not fitting my playstile I would say. Percentage win/los would be around 50%
Araby Army
I bouhgt this one as I loved the models....the are excellent sculpted, a pain to paint but look tremendous when painted and I like the variety of models they offer. They are tough to beat in hand of skilled player but here also.....they are quite new, a lot of players don´t know this army and there strenghts. Had the chance to demonstrate this army at last Euro GT and lost only 1 game (beating myself in the 3rd turn of the game as I could not succeed in getting 9 hits at 4+ when rolling 40 dice and in same turn I could not succeed in getting 9 hits when rolling 30 dice....thus said 2 units Pegasus Knights and 3 units Bretonian Knights survived.....)
What I want to tell with this long story ;) is that it pretty much depends on a lot of different circumstances how succesfull you are with a specific army (of cours luck plays a big part as it´s a game using dice to command, hit, survive...etc)
Cheers
Claus
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I don´t think it´s a good idea to do percentages like this as it allways depends on.....
Ok, Claus. I agree with you. Stadistic is a false-friend-tool and used to lie
The idea was only for fun, and to compare with you (experience or starters players) how different people see the armies and maybe could this topic be a place to express how works the armies in different playing styles, maybe a group of people is succeed with a pack of armies (undead, orc and chaos) but do not succeed with others... and so on. This kind of details that normaly people do not caught their eye if the do not put all data together.
What I want to tell with this long story is that it pretty much depends on a lot of different circumstances how succesfull you are with a specific army (of cours luck plays a big part as it´s a game using dice to command, hit, survive...etc)
It was only a fun exercise. I am not really interested in the "best" army of "how to win" and I am not obsesed in identify all the parameters that configure "how being unbeatible". I am more interested in talk about the game and personal experience of other people how have more or less time playing than me.
Claus, anyway, very interesting the 3 examples. (It would be great to see some pics of your arab army :) )
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jchaos79, interesting post, although I agree with Claus that there are many contributing factors behind the win/loss statistics!
My own statistics would be dire, having only managed a handful of wins with my chaos army against Munsters High Elves or Undead.
What I'd be interested in is; hearing some tactics, deployment and army construction techniques that helped you suceed with, say, your Dwarf army. What kind of army do you take, how do you play it, and how do you overcome the challenges faced by other armies?
I'd also be interested in hearing the same from you Claus - if you'd be willing to share some tips and tricks from a successful Demon player?
I'm a fair ways off the Eurpoean tournament circuit here in Australia, and would love to hear some sage advice.
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(But this should be some(?) new topics, I guess...)
Over the years I organised some Warmaster Tournaments. If I find time the next days I could go through my notes and put in a tournament-army statistic... That's still not the final truth, but it's a bit more objective maybe...
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As I got asked for....
Daemon Army tactics.
There is not reall secret on that one.
First of all...I´m a master in handling flyers and a very aggressive player as it would meand that oponent has to react on my movements.
So I´m proactive guy forcing you to act.
Let´s talk about units.
Daemon Swarms - don´t leave house without them ( help to increase your BP and they are best choice if facing opponents with lot of firepower. But be carefull. In close combat they can die very fast ... so the trick is to put them at the right time in the 2nd row.
Daemon Hordes - the back bone of the army (in a 2.000 pt game I use 6-7 units of them)
Daemon Cavalry - Heavy hitters. Wherever they hit you there is no more gras growing anymore ;)
Daemon Hounds - Nice option to use as they are cheaper then standard cavalry.
Daemon Chariots - The standard chariot ....allways a good choice.
Daemon Flyers - Don´t leave house without them. One of the best flyers in game with their 5+ save and if you know how to use flyers.... (flyers are in general to strong)
Daemon Beasts - Not worth their points in games till 2.000 pts. to easy to kill by shooting with their 5+ save. (don´t use them only very seldom)
The Big bonus of Daemon army:
They are allowed to use 2 Wizzards per 1.000 pts and to upgrade the general also to a Wizzard meaning that you can field 5 wizzards in a game of 2.000 pts.
Their 4+ spell allowing you to get back killed stands. In combination with 5 wizzards.....I don´t need to tell you.
Good offensive spell at 5+ allowing to get +1 attack to any Daemon unit in close combat within 30cm of the casting wizzard.
The 6+ Spell...allowing to reroll missed hits (when having 5 wizzards quite a good chance to cast succesfully)
DisadvantageThe instability test you have to make at the beginning of your turn for each unit when having lost 1 stand.
To be hones....you can ignore this one.....it never decided a game of mine when losing a unit due to instability.
When reading all this you see that Daemons are a perfect offensive army having a standard 5+ save almost on any unit and quite a lot of basic attacks per unit. In combination with their magic they are extremly powerful when using offensive playstile.
Also .... your opponent never can be shure in getting victory point unless he killed last stand of your unit as you allways can get back lost stands by magic.
Cheers
Claus
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What I'd be interested in is; hearing some tactics, deployment and army construction techniques that helped you suceed with, say, your Dwarf army. What kind of army do you take, how do you play it, and how do you overcome the challenges faced by other armies?
Well I am not very experience player, but my last games strategies with dwarf army is that follows: I do not use gyrocopters neither trollslayers (the reason is that simple as I do not have painted those figures), and prefere rangers than thunderers. I take cannons and flame cannon because I think it fit a lot with my sense of dwarf style.
I try to win the center of the table advancing the army slow, though, heavy and stubborn as I think the dwarfs are. Very mathematical. Trying to advance the flame cannon in first line defended by rangers (if cavalary makes a flash movement to take down your artillery, there is the chance of have luck with the flames and rangers can pursuit them). I see dwarf warriors very armoured and with lots of impact to resist charges, and make very fierce counterattacks. The high command of those little leaders make possible advance the artillery.
Cannons in the back try to divide the oposite army. I think dwarf cannon should be in the back and not advance. Runic smith can dispell some "magic tricks" of your enemy army, forcing them to take an strategy not based in spells. When the center of the table is won, then you can attack with the warriors.
In my experience dwarfs are terrific defending postions or in siege games. "It is known the difficult of taking a dwarf stronghold"
Well that works for me in some games, but always depends in lots of factors, terrain, experience of other players, the mood of the game and special rules of scenario. And that is what makes so funny warmaster. As I said maybe is not the best strategy to play with dwarfs, because I do not know the perfect way of winning, and maybe I am not very interested in it. Just have fun and beer as an old dwarf style!!
I'm a fair ways off the Eurpoean tournament circuit here in Australia, and would love to hear some sage advice.
So Pugwash, just remember the sage advice of Napoleon "No plans survive to the the battlefield", It is a literal translation of spanish to english (and Napoleon said it in french :P ) so I do not know if the message is lost, but what I understand from these sentence is that although you have a plan/strategy before the battle, during it, in the battlefield all your previous plans will go to the trash for sure. So should adapt them or change them during the battle. Napoleon only lost 1 battle... the question then is How can your plans be changed during the battle? There is only an answer and you will get it during the game, not before or after. (But I think I am just starting to philosphize...)
Have fun, play games (and post here those beautiful Battle-reports ;) )
(I would like to make battle reports, but with my english it will a pain reading them :o :( :D)
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First of all...I´m a master in handling flyers and a very aggressive player as it would meand that oponent has to react on my movements.
So I´m proactive guy forcing you to act.
Guys, even if this sounds a bit like boasting, believe me, Claus really is a pain in the neck when he is using those Daemon flyers. He very often puts one of them to the very left flank with a character at 30cm distance and another one to the very right flank with a character at about 30cm distance. He lets them home back towards the characters and gives them one or even two orders before he lets them charge into the flanks of your cavalry/warmachines or whatever. So even if you know what's coming it is a) very difficult to always avoid dangerous situations or b) even if you manage to not give his flyers easy prey - those flyers very much dictate the movement of you army. (Especially tough to play against this tactic with Bretonnians - but the new Pegasus Knights help a bit).
Greetings,
Gerald
P.S.: Tomorrow I will present the army-statistics.
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As I got askef or pictures of Araby army.
Here are 2 links of pics taken at Euro GT in Netherlands from this year.
<http://picasaweb.google.com/arjan.vankrimpen/EuroGTPix#
http://picasaweb.google.com/lex.van.rooy/EuroGTXV#
I will try to make some close up pics this weekend and get em posted here.
Regards
Claus
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thanks claus,
the army seems super! and the carpets are biger than I imagine, also the basing looks really good
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Yes...basing was also a pain in the ass ;)
Did specific desert basing by using some modelling putty from my childrens, painting it afterwards at right base colour, applying the right sand to get the desert feeling and putting some dried gras (woodland scenic has really good staff) on it.
Also cut the Archers in pieces to arrange them as I would see and archer unit/formation.
It was pain to do, to paint and I spent around 5 month on this project (painting at the end 4 hours a day) but finally....you can see the reward....even if they are not yet 100% finished. (some parts still need 2 or 3 layers of highlighting )
Cheers
Claus
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Claus, those look fantastic :). i look forward to seeing some more pics.
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Coming back to topic about rate of success.
Here is my chart:
Army--------Victories--Draws--Losses--# of Games
Daemons------86%------0%----14%-----7
Lizardmen-----80%-----10%-------------5
Skaven--------75%-------------25%---- 4
Dwarfs--------73%------------- 27%----15
Araby---------66%--------------33%----3
High Elves-----50%--------------50%----6
Dark Elves-----50%-----33%----17%-----6
Bretonnian-----48%-------------52%----27--
Empire---------43%-------------57%----14----
Chaos---------41%-----12%---- 47%----17-----
Undead--------33%-----17%----50%----12-----
Vampire--------17%-----17%----66%-----6---
Orcs&Goblins---17%-------------83%-----6
I gathered all the information I had over the last 5 years and calculated the rates. Sources are the single-tournaments I organised plus the results of the Mighty Empire Campaign games we did in the last two years. Of course these results are still to be seen with care as there are some armies which are only represented by one player. So if this player is more or less gifted/experienced this of course has influence on the overall rating of that army.
For example the Dwarf player in our group seems to have a good hand for that army while the Vampire player was quite an unexperienced part time player who did not play much more than the 6 games that are mentioned here. The more surprising are the results of our Skaven player as he is quite new in the game.
Overall I'd say all armies that have more than 10 results in the chart can be seen as halfway objective and representative (at least for the austrian playing community ;)).
Greetings,
Gerald
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Thanks SpiritusXmachina,
I take your stats and add my own games, the battle reports post here and the Pugwash Downunder ones.
The statitic is that follows:
Army SpiritusX Jchaos CapPiett Carrington Pugwash TotalV Population Percentage/%
Chaos 7 7 14 30 47
Bretonninan 13 13 27 48
Empire 6 4 10 26 38
Dwarfs 11 5 16 22 73
High elves 3 5 2 10 16 62
Orcs gobl 1 1 15 7
Undead 1 2 1 1 5 11 45
Population less than 10 games
Daemon 6 6 7 86
Vampire 1 1 2 7 29
Dark Elves 3 3 6 50
Lizardman 4 4 5 80
Skaven 4 4 5 80
Araby 2 2 3 67
They still being less players and not too much games, but I see that when the number of games (population) with different players arise the percentage goes 40-60 (near 50). Exception is high elves. That means to me that the list are well balance. I never have doubt about the fantastic design of the game list, I love them.
I did not introduce the data of Claus because I do not have the popultaion but for sure his data will arise the deamon and araby, but if I play those armis I will get down the percentage for sure ( ::) ) .
Orc and goblin is very low, because the players (myself) and the one wich spiritusXmachina provide needs to improve the art of waaaagh.
- Do you have the same lecture of the data from the chart?
- Do you have more data?
- Do you think that the unbalance discuss from the skaven list could be spotted in a chart like this? or this mechanism is just a waste of time?
P.D. I do that for fun. I dont want to point that one army is better or worst than another in any moment.
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Yes, I think that's an interesting, funny idea. And it would be interesting if all armies would tend towards 50% if there are enough players and results included. Unfortunately my statistics lecture are long gone but I would think that if an army lies over 66% or under 33% one could say that it's not perfectly balanced.
By the way the results of Claus's games are already in my chart. At least the ones from the tournament and campaign games. There are around 15 different players that were part of that chart (Guthwine is in there too).
To be honest I think to really be representative only "serious" games should be included. That was the reason I only took results of tournaments and campaign games as everyone tries to win there, major rules interpretations should be correct and there should be a nice mix of different players you meet (I would not even put in results of EuroGTs as those are mainly fun-games).
But the idea of gathering international tournament results of the last years seems very interesting to me.
I know that there have been a lot of british tournaments..., I know that there is a vivid Warmaster-community in Poland and in Siberia (greetings to them all) and I know that there were a lot of french and belgian players out there - I do not know if there were tournaments in the Netherlands, but I know that there are "Masters of War" living there ;).
In fact there is some kind of project already alive even if it is not especially designed for Warmaster... It's t3: http://www.tabletopturniere.de
It's a site where you can publish coming tournaments and put in the results. Unfortunately I only have access to the german version but there should be a french version somewhere as some french Warmaster tournaments have been published there. Don't know if there is an english version.
I find this site very nice and use it since two years. You can look at the success ratings of different armies there. And it would be very interesting if this site would be accepted as an international center for publishing Warmaster tournaments and results.
I will ask if there is an english version.
Greetings,
Gerald
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Well I live in Madrid, Spain, and as far as I know warmaster is not very played. I do not frequent tournaments, so I can not provide such data. The idea of taking only "serious games" to statitic seems a good noise-filter.
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Happy new year to all of you!!!
So I keep recording the statidistic of winning battles reported in this specialist forum and warmasterdk. The draws counts as 2 looses. And here is the stadistic of the year:
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu205/jchaos79/cajon%20desastre/stadisticdecember2010.jpg)
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu205/jchaos79/cajon%20desastre/stadisticresumedecember2010.jpg)
I will only comment the 10 or more games of population section (the yellow one):
There are 3 groups of success with the armies.
-The succesfull ones (around 60%): Dwarfs, high elves and dark elves. For my surprise the dwarves are very very succesful army and it is curiuos that is the one that not have cavalry
- The even ones (around 40-50%): Skaven, undead, bretonian, empire. It seems empire has enter this middle group. Maybe skaven has little population of games to be sure in what group depends.
- The less succesfull ones (around 25-30%): Orcs & Goblins, Chaos. For my surprise Chaos still being in this group, as many people consider this army a great challenge.
This kind of stadistic is only made for fun but could be interesting when preparing a campaing to make balance teams of armies.
The headers of the columns are the names of the players who won battles. If the battle is reported in the forum and do not tell who is the opponent, then the victory goes for the guy who post the battle. Sorry if the name is not complete, but if someone of you had curiosity could ask and I will give the complete player nickname.
Enjoy
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In fact there is some kind of project already alive even if it is not especially designed for Warmaster... It's t3: http://www.tabletopturniere.de
It's a site where you can publish coming tournaments and put in the results. Unfortunately I only have access to the german version but there should be a french version somewhere as some french Warmaster tournaments have been published there. Don't know if there is an english version.
I find this site very nice and use it since two years. You can look at the success ratings of different armies there. And it would be very interesting if this site would be accepted as an international center for publishing Warmaster tournaments and results.
I will ask if there is an english version.
Greetings,
Gerald
T³ is open to UK moderator candidate.
http://www.tabletoptournaments.net/game/Warmaster
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T³ is open to UK moderator candidate.
Does this mean you are looking for one?
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Yes, it does.
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PM me with what is involved please.