Hey Sigoroth,
Do you own any Bastions? Have you ever faught one? More than one? Or are you strictly looking at this by the stat line. We have two Bastion users here that are perfectly fine with the way the ships cost is. That should tell you something.
I think being an ultra-rare ship/species according to fluff is a perfectly acceptable reason to add a few points onto a ship.
The Bastion works really well in the Demiurg fleet, and I should know, I have four of them and have never lost a game (8-0). Speaking in terms of a Demiurg fleet, what will the adjusted points really gain you in any games 1500 points or less? One extra escort? Maybe? It's really a non-issue to me. It's supposed to be a gimmick vessel when used as an Ally already, so the comparison to other fleets ship costs is pointless to me.
@Sigoroth
the worst thing you can contribute to a forum discussion is an insult...
Anyone can have his own opinion. If it is your opinion that it is silly what he said in this discussion, you nevertheless shouldnt call him silly as a person.
the worst thing you can contribute to a forum discussion is an insult...
Anyone can have his own opinion. If it is your opinion that it is silly what he said in this discussion, you nevertheless shouldnt call him silly as a person.
I see a 2-1 argument saying the Bastion is fine in terms of actual users of the vessel. I assume, unless they say specifically, people are talking theory-Gothic, and therefore its harder for them to see the advantages of the Demiurg. Not to mention, most people think of Demiurg in terms of using them strictly as allies. I have never used them as such and don't plan on it (partly because the best fleet they mesh with is the Imperials, and I don't own any of them).
In terms of which of the three vessels of Demiurg origin is wrongly priced, I think you have a stronger argument for the Stronghold being undercosted than the Bastion being overcosted.
On the fluff being a reason to add value to a ship, well I think your wrong! See I can do that too, and it gets us no where. So lets just agree to disagree.
In terms of the 1000 point fleets, you do know of the Demiurg list at the end of the new Tau list in the 2010 FAQ right? You don't HAVE to make a fleet entirely of Demiurg vessels if you don't want to (which, to be honest, is only a problem because you don't want to use the Citadel the way the Rules Commitee suggests). Not to mention, adjusting the points of the ship because you feel the Demiurg should be aAble to field 4 Bastions in a 1000 point fleet or 8 in a 2000 point fleet.... why? Why do you think so? What would be the difference between that and me saying "I think we should adjust the Murder to 165 points to get 6 in a 1000 point fleet or 12 in 2000 point fleet because I think thats right"?
What kind of fucktard would think that the Demiurg should be boned because they're rare?
Good-bye. Hope you feel bullying people out of an argument is somehow winning that argument. I simply don't have time to write a book of a response to you showing every facet of the argument I want to make. The simple fact is, I think adding points onto ships for fluff reasons gives the game some needed character compared to the math-formula you want the game to be where everything is perfectly balanced with each other. I find your version of the game terribly lame and it seems you're not up for a tactical challenge because, you know, that just wouldn't be fair to be at some sort of disadvantage because your a certain kind of race in BFG. Calling me a f***tard for that is completely uncalled for and just not worth the limited time I have.
The 255 pts is odd, but really the only reason to reduce this is to fit a 4th bastion into 1000pts, which is not a good enough reason. It may be overcosted but this is balanced out by the stronghold. This might need a minor downward adjustment given the current existence of the citadel and other cruisers available to take the stronghold. At 1.5k 4 bastions and one stronghold seem balanced.
I have more of a problem with the citadel. I have no problem with trimming down the bastion model to represent a citadel but why oh why must it be on a large base???
@sig
Your language and tone really is inappropriate and does more harm to your arguments than you realize. You forget that ultimately BFG is a game, thus at it's existential core must be fun. And as an extension discussion regarding the game should also be fun. Shame!
As always, ANY discussion is a good thing, but people stepping into one should be aware that people in discussion will have (and are entitiled to) their own opinion, be it based on actual play, reading the rules or even based on "fluff". Accept that fact and let people in their value, discuss the rule/game mechanisms, and when nescecary: Agree to disagree.
As always, ANY discussion is a good thing, but people stepping into one should be aware that people in discussion will have (and are entitiled to) their own opinion, be it based on actual play, reading the rules or even based on "fluff". Accept that fact and let people in their value, discuss the rule/game mechanisms, and when nescecary: Agree to disagree.
Well then, I'm entitled to my opinions about the type of person that would deliberately overcost an integral ship in a fleet based upon his own preference for an inherent disadvantage for Demiurg players. And I'll agree to disagree with your assertion that we should let people have such opinions with impunity.
IMHO there is no need for what (as a non-englisch speaker) I would consider bad and inappropriate language in a discussion where your arguments are enough to make your case.
As for the Demiurg fleet list, I have an extreme idea: I want a joint fleet list that contains Demiurg, Kroot, Rogue Traders, Pirates and xenos. This fleet list could be used to make a Demiurg fleet (or Kroot etc), but as it is hard to make a useable fleet with so few choices you could bulk out your choice fleets with a few cheap choices from the other races.
Uh Ray, that already exists.
See 2010 FAQ, In the revised Tau list, at the very end of the document. What you just said was an 'extreme' idea, is already done. Did Nate do this part completely without you? Or did you just forget it was there?
If I look at the way Ray approaches the 2nd shield on the Marine Strike Cruiser (he never noticed it!) and above comment I believe Ray has not read FAQ/Compendium 2010 completely. ;)
You can already do that sort of list, but I'm interested in a pure Demiurg list. I know that Demiurg are mercenaries and it's plausible that they've made contacts and could call upon some favours to dragoon in some allies in some cases, but it wouldn't be so in all cases (or even most) and presumably the Demiurg would be able to field a fleet of their own. :o
So any idea when we can get an official review of this? We've already seen some stuff from Armada altered, so is there any reason why this ship couldn't be changed also?