Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Rules Questions => Topic started by: Claus on July 31, 2011, 09:51:20 PM
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Hi gents,
we had a nice question, last friday, and no rule book at hand to read in.
Following situation.
1)
Unit of Araby Knights won combat against Chaos Marauders and had another unit of Chaos Chariots within 10 cm range but the only stand of Araby Knights that could see the Chaos Chariots were more far away then 10 cm ....but one stand that could not see the Chaos Chariots were withing 10 cm.
Question:
Can the Araby Knights advance into the Chaos Chariots ?
2)
2 Units of Araby Knights win 1st combat round vers 2 units Chaos Marauders and 1 unit Chaos Warriors. One unit of Chaos Marauders gets completely destroyed leading to situation that one unit of Araby Knights can do advance move.
As both Araby Knight units were charging in the edge of the Chaos units the first pursuing Araby knight unit covered full edged of surviving Chaos units and one 1 stand got in the back of the the Chaos unit. Giving this the only part the advancing unit of Araby Knights could see were the corner of the edge ..with were the closest one ...or another Chaos Chariot unit more far away but within advancing range.
Question:
In terms of determing the "closest visible unit" for doing advance moves/charges....does the the outer corner of a unit count for determing closest vislibls unit or not ?
Regards
Claus
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1)
Unit of Araby Knights won combat against Chaos Marauders and had another unit of Chaos Chariots within 10 cm range but the only stand of Araby Knights that could see the Chaos Chariots were more far away then 10 cm ....but one stand that could not see the Chaos Chariots were withing 10 cm.
Question:
Can the Araby Knights advance into the Chaos Chariots ?
We usualy would play it like that, the rule dictates the distance to "use" initiative advance, but does allow your stand to move a full distance if needed, and the unit had LOS on the target
2)
2 Units of Araby Knights win 1st combat round vers 2 units Chaos Marauders and 1 unit Chaos Warriors. One unit of Chaos Marauders gets completely destroyed leading to situation that one unit of Araby Knights can do advance move.
ONLY if that unit if Araby knights did not make contact with the Marauders to start with !!
As both Araby Knight units were charging in the edge of the Chaos units the first pursuing Araby knight unit covered full edged of surviving Chaos units and one 1 stand got in the back of the the Chaos unit. Giving this the only part the advancing unit of Araby Knights could see were the corner of the edge ..with were the closest one ...or another Chaos Chariot unit more far away but within advancing range.
Question:
In terms of determing the "closest visible unit" for doing advance moves/charges....does the the outer corner of a unit count for determing closest vislibls unit or not ?
The ADVANCE move follows all rules of charge on making frontal contact and extending contact to maximize fighting edge.
But truth be told, I would need to see a diagram to get this one cleared up ......
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I will see if I can do a short diagram this evening to better demonstrate the situation for question 2.
For question 1...I actually did not do the advance in new combat as I somehow felt this as not proper action....I could win without doing this as all my Knight units charged this turn and killed around 6-7 Chaos units...without having to fear counter charges.
Regards
Claus
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Had some connectivity issues yesterday (as I´m on a business trip in France) that got solved meanwhile.....will make the diagram this evening.
Regards
Claus
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Found some time now.
Here the detailed drawing describing situation.
URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/200/advancequestion.jpg/](http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/923/advancequestion.th.jpg)[/URL]
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/923/advancequestion.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/200/advancequestion.jpg/)
I hope it works.
Regards
Claus
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i dont think they can, cause if the pic is clear enough it looks like they would have to charge through a stand of a unit in combat....
hope this helps
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@Brutalrage.
No...that´s not correct.
As long as you can see a unit and as they are in range you are allowed to charge them. Event the edge you are coming from is allready covered you are allowed to go in the front or back of the unit if you have sufficient movement.
Regards
Claus
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ad. 1) Yes, they can. In the rules for charging "the closest" stand is determined in the way that the priority to be "the closest" is given for the stands that can see and can reach the enemy. So in your case you can see but cannot reach (stand must be ignored) and with the second stand you cannot see but can reach and this stand becomes "the closest" and the one to begin your charge with. Please note that still the closest enemy stand that unit can see will be determined by the distance between your stand which can see and is not nominated to be the closest one and the enemy stand it can see (and cannot reach of course). 8)
ad. 2) As for the second question the answer is rather easy. Let's consider the intensions here. As you are not obliged to maximize edge contact while lapping round in pursue move you are perfectly allowed to place your stand one milimiter closer to your stands attacking from the flank and then there will be no discussion about if the corner is visible or not. So my answer is: discussion if the corner is visible here or not might be conducted but the spirit of the game would be not to see the Chaos Marauders 2.
And according to the rules to see enemy you have to have the possibility to draw uninterrupted line from your front edge to any edge of the enemy stand. And corner is certainly not edge (only the infinitely small part of it).
Hope this might help you.
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mmmh... as I see the scheme, this is a multi-combat,
Does the green araby knights needs to pursuit the retreting units of the multi combat (chaos marauders yellow or red) instead making an advance?
Is the advance only possible when you have defeated (destroyed) all the enemy stands of the combat/multiple combat?
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No. It is just the oposite. Resolving the multicombat and destroying all the units the unit is fighting with are two different things.
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mmmh... as I see the scheme, this is a multi-combat,
Does the green araby knights needs to pursuit the retreting units of the multi combat (chaos marauders yellow or red) instead making an advance?
Is the advance only possible when you have defeated (destroyed) all the enemy stands of the combat/multiple combat?
It is a multi combat, and resolved as such, but as the Green knights ONLY touched the maruaders, they do count as having their target destroyed, and can claim Advance.
Remeber that ther are now two "seperate" situations, and their is no "set" sequence of resolution.
Getlord is correct in the statement that the [Blue knight can easily be placed so that there wont be a elligible target on Marauders 2.
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Thank you guys.
By finding a solution I did not even think on not covering the full front of the "Araby Knight 2" stand (the one in the back of the marauder unit) to avoid line of sight for the Araby 1 Knight unit. Of course this would have been the smartest move to allow advance in the edge of the chariots.
Actually in the game I decided to place the stand in the front of the Chaos warrior unit giving line of sight at marauders for the 2nd Araby Knight unit which allowed me to kill both units with minimal losses on 1 Knight unit.
Regards
Claus
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Actually in the game I decided to place the stand in the front of the Chaos warrior unit giving line of sight at marauders for the 2nd Araby Knight unit which allowed me to kill both units with minimal losses on 1 Knight unit.
Hmmm ... that would be frowned upon here.... Pursuit is first move directly forward those stands that where into contact before and then all remaining stands move the shortest distance to get frontal contact (which is what your drawing shows), and onlu allow "repositioning" like you describe when the shortest route would result into C2C or non-frontal contact.
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Interesting discussion here. I've definitely had opponents wrap around the back unit, on the grounds that the victorius unit can "lap around" the losing side. I'll have to review the rules again in light of this discussion.
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Actually in the game I decided to place the stand in the front of the Chaos warrior unit giving line of sight at marauders for the 2nd Araby Knight unit which allowed me to kill both units with minimal losses on 1 Knight unit.
Hmmm ... that would be frowned upon here.... Pursuit is first move directly forward those stands that where into contact before and then all remaining stands move the shortest distance to get frontal contact (which is what your drawing shows), and onlu allow "repositioning" like you describe when the shortest route would result into C2C or non-frontal contact.
Rather not Lex. The shortest distance for "the remaining stands" is not mandatory as far as I understand the rules. What is mandatory (if possible) is to attack the same unit as prevoius stands pursuing directly forward. Please see below and comment if I missed something.
Once stands that can pursue directly forward have
done so, other stands from the same unit are also
moved into edge contact. This includes stands that
would only contact corner-to-corner by moving
directly forward, as well as stands that would not
contact at all. Where possible, these stands must also
be positioned against the same enemy unit as stands
that have already pursued directly forward. Pursuing
stands must be positioned so that their front edge
contacts at least part of the edge of a retreating stand
where possible – but note that there is no obligation
to maximise frontage as there is during a charge. See
Diagrams 47.1 & 47.3
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I was not saying that it states so specificly in the rules, but I know that was the way we were supposed to playtest them, and we just kept on with that wayof playing afterwards.
I have seen extreme "running around to get positioning on a possible Advance", so we just stuck to the move direct forward for those units NOT making frontal contact (as per your quote), to also "move direct forward" and switch orientation.
So, NOT (the) rule, but a common sense rules interpretation to avoid possible exploitation