Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Trickstick on August 04, 2011, 12:37:59 AM
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So I have been playing a few games lately but have only ever won against other Imperial players, never against chaos. I don't really see what I am doing wrong. I'm not saying it is a balance problem or anything, I am just wondering if I am missing something obvious.
Chaos seem to always get first strike against me, using their superior range and speed. This usually means that my best ships either have to brace or are crippled. This seems to shift the balance of power enough that it is an uphill struggle from that point on. I have tried to use ordnance to cover my advance but it just gets shot down or ignored and does little damage.
My typical list is an apocalypse, mars, dictator, a couple of lunars and some swords.
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Turn 1. All ahead full to close
Turn 2. Launch torpedoes and bombers (could serve as diversionary targets)
Turn 3. Reload ordnance and save for combine launch, keep the fleet together while splitting his
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All ahead full first turn makes complete sense, I don't know why I never tried it. Maybe I was worried about the fleet becoming spread out or something. I assume that the nova cannons would hang back and fire at range instead.
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Most IN cruisers have only 30cm weapons on the sides so you have to split his fleet up close
Keep your ships together
Nova cannon ships should indeed not AAF to keep firing as long as possible
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Start playing different kind of scenarios.
Really it makes everything a lot more trickier.
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We are actually running a campaign with Imperial (me), Inquisition and two chaos. So far the chaos have won everything. In my last fight it didn't help that I had to endure a meteor storm, which killed 3/5 of my escorts, collapsed a dictator's shields, took one of my novas out and gave a ship engine room damage. On top of all that I was against a 5 shield planet killer in a planetary assault. It was a lot of fun though. I am really enjoying all of the scenarios and random sub plots.
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Ive to say with all my fleets (eldar, tau, sm/imp, dark eldar) and in all games ive played so far i had the biggest problems with chaos. (i didnt play mayn games (2) vs tyras though i guess they are pretty strong as well)
I think their "we dont have torpedoes but everything else twice as much as you"(range, lances, speed, cheap cruisers, cheap ordnance, assault boats, boarding modifier...) playstyle is a bit op :-D (dont take this too serious but the tendency comes close)
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Imperial vessels have more firepower than Chaos vessels, and they can turn slightly tighter as they only have to move 10cm minimum as opposed to 12.5cm.
Use AAF to close from 60cm into torpedo range (picking on one, maybe 2 key vessels), then get in amongst his fleet and stay there. You need to be firing at least 2 of your 3 arcs every turn in order to match chaos firepower. Once in amongst his fleet he shouldn't be able to shake you off except by slowly outrunning you, which gives you a perfect firing solution for more torpedoes.
Torpedoes are better than NC, but if you do have them in your fleet fire at any carriers that need to make an RO check before being able to launch again.
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I think that chaos cruisers can still move after 10cm, they just have to move another 2.5cm afterwards. It does mean that they will either be 2.5cm further away or a target directly behind them will be out of arc though.
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I think that chaos cruisers can still move after 10cm, they just have to move another 2.5cm afterwards. It does mean that they will either be 2.5cm further away or a target directly behind them will be out of arc though.
If you were to move your minimum distance each turn and keep turning in the one direction as soon as you're allowed (ie, after 10cm) then you will see that the distance between each of the Chaos ships turning points will be 12.5cm (move 10cm, turn, move 2.5cm, move 10cm, turn, move 2.5 cm, move 10 cm, etc) giving you a circumference of 100cm to execute a complete 360° turn. On the other hand, doing the same for the IN you would get only 10cm between each turn, for a total circumference of only 80cm. Thus the IN ships have a tighter turning circle.
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Surrender. You can't win against such an obviously OP fleet! ;D
To be serious, IN has a lot of advantages over Chaos! IN ships have better armor, usually equivalent firepower up close and a tighter turn radius. If you're willing to include an Emperor (why not? Awesome ship) you can easily gain AC superiority. Torpedos do way more average damage than the gunnery on any chaos vessel and ramming is highly effective.
I think a lot of IN players get stuck on gunnery and so fail to leverage of the many advantages of the IN fleet. You wouldn't try to board tyranids or ram orks or win an ordnance war with tau. Why try to fight chaos using only gunnery?
Fighting Chaos with IN is easy. Keep your prow armor facing them. AAF first turn to close the distance. Chaos ships normally have to turn broadsides. Use your torpedos primarily and gunnery at targets of opportunity. Ram when you have the chance. Nova cannons should hang far back and fire last, targets with shields down are optimal. IN can get a far higher damage output than any Chaos fleet this way while maintaining better defense the whole game.
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I had not considered that it would be more effective to fire nova cannons last. It seems so obvious now. I always fired them first.
I always seem to be half dead by the time I reach the enemy. I suppose by using AAF, and the closer use of torpedoes, this could change though. I am looking forward to giving it a try. Also, I do not have an emperor. My launch bays are on a mars and two dictators. I have been looking forward to trying the 2 dictator squdron tactic. I may combine it with three lance dauntless I am about to receive for a fast strike force. I like how both of them lose very little firepower on special orders. Moving ordnance through blast markers isn't great but those are the risks you take.
Just for the sake of completeness, these are the ships I own and their names:
Battlefleet Halcyon
Fleet-Admiral - Fürtlinger
Apocalypse - Saint Ekubo
Mars - Recreants' Cataclysm
Lunar - Lord Odobenus
Lunar - Sus Osculum
Dictator - Vermillion Monarch
Dictator - Fulminous Peal
Overlord - Wrath of Lupus
Dominator - Kalapani Pilgrim
Gothic -
Sword Squadron x6 (Although I mostly use 5) - Corvus
Dauntless - Alugura (In the post)
Dauntless -
Dauntless -
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Either squadron the lunars together, and the dictator together, or go one each.
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Handy tips to punk chaos with IN.
1. Never take a single overlord. If you have one, get a second. Make sure they have the targetting matrix upgrade. A pair of these can kill a cruiser at 60cm.
2. Squadron your cruisers. Individually, IN cruisers are weak. Pair them up, the whole is far greater then the sum of its parts. Lunars with lunars, dictators with dictators.
3. Prioritize your targets. Some chaos ships are designed to draw attention away from more important vessels.
4. Keep together. Forming a phalanx wedge will make it impossible for him to attack without suffering heavily. Isolated ships are dead ships.
5. Remove their carriers, use bombers and torpedos. 5+ armor is squishy to bombers and torps. Chaos carriers are potent artillary, kill or cripple them if the opportunity arises.
6. If you see the opportunity, RAM!
7. Never board a ship unless you have 2 cruisers doing the job, or the ship is crippled. IN are some of the worst boarding in the game.
8. Never underestimate chaos escorts. Do not shun the iconoclast.
9. Kill any acheron you can find.
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As much as I love my Imperial fleet, I still get hammered every time I play Chaos.
I find that their range 45cm or better forward firing guns allow them to focus fire on a single target of their choice each turn, overwhelming that ship. In return I struggle to bring the weapons of even a few of my ships to bare. And when I do, they all have to fire on different targets because Imperial weapons are nearly always port/starboard.
Prow armour is helpful, but Chaos have access to forward firing lances, completely negating the advantage. Being abeam with armour 5+ is more or less the same as closing with armour 6+.
Torpedoes or bombers hardly ever get through, even when direct firing, as Chaos can easily get more fighters with their higher launch capacity cruisers. The emperor can only balance this out until it is forced to brace, which usually happens fairly quickly thanks to the Chaos fleets forward firing range 45cm+ guns.
I'm not even going to mention daemon ships...
Zelnik's points are all good and apply against any opponent, though most of them are easier said than done in my opinion.
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I'm not even going to mention daemon ships...
lol, daemonships are crappy. Pity, cool concept. But they are waste of points.
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I agree with horizon
If there are any points you should strive for the most: keep your fleet together and squadron up.
Here is an example fleet.
2x overlords with targetting matrix ld8 commander
2x lunar cruisers
2x dictators
1xgothic
The gothic always is alone and functions as a hammer and wildcard.
The others stick with their sister ships at all times.
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I've found that whenever I faced a daemon ship (I've only ever faced one at once as my opponent only ever limits himself to one) it's been indestructible and caused me lots of damage.
They just phase in directly behind my fleet where I can't get them and then shoot me in the rear. If I ever get into a position to damage it it just phases out again.
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Tips to negate chaos long-range:
#1. With AAF you can close from >60cm to <30cm in one turn of movement, and be certain of hitting with every torpedo. You should manoeuvre to just outside 60cm to set this up. To stop you getting the first shot off, he will be forced to close with you. So you're looking at a max of one turn of unopposed fire.
#2. Screen his shots. Have a squadron of cruisers lead the way, and try and make it so that some of his ships will be closer to one than the other. He'll be forced to target both of them, which will waste firepower against shields, and he'll be very unlikely to cripple them. If he wants to shoot anything else, that's a leadership check, and assuming a ld of 8 he'll fail just under 30%, taking the heat off your more valuable ships.
#3. Wasting firepower on your battleship is good. To cripple a healthy Emperor before you get into torpedo range will take an average of 32 long range lances, assuming 30% of shots are unintentionally directed at other vessels and the Emperor braces after losing its shields. Even Chaos doesn't have anything like that kind of one-turn firepower, and certainly not at long range. Put it close behind the screening cruisers to positively encourage him to shoot it.
If you follow the above tips, the majority of his firepower will bounce off your most heavily protected vessel, and what's left will dissipate harmlessly off the shields of your screening cruisers. In the following turn your Emperor can take up a more defensive posture, and your main line will be in position to gut the centre of his fleet. Now enjoy watching the heretics burn.
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I've found that whenever I faced a daemon ship (I've only ever faced one at once as my opponent only ever limits himself to one) it's been indestructible and caused me lots of damage.
They just phase in directly behind my fleet where I can't get them and then shoot me in the rear. If I ever get into a position to damage it it just phases out again.
Put an escort squadron of at least 2 on CTNH, turn them around and keep one parked in base contact with the demon ship at all times. It'll never phase in.
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Well I had a game today and managed to not die horribly! I didn't end up doing much damage though but that was probably down to most of my ships having LD6 and not managing to reload. I seemed to do more damage with mine fields than anything else. I used an overlord by itself and I agree that it needs a partner. Disruptive torpedoes seemed to work well. However, I shot a fair amount of fire into a slaughter and did little more than tickle the shields. I suppose the IN really need that <15cm shift to do damage. 2 lunars, a dominator, dictator, overlord and 4 bombers did zero damage. They should have locked on but the lowe LD didn't help.
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If 5 ships did only 2 dmg (shields) you were simply unlucky with the dice in that turn i guess.
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I had a few things go against me that game. Such as when his double refitted carnage class put out a fire with only one hit left. That vexed me greatly.
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Remember, focus your fire on ships of high value. You need to knock the pegs out from under him if you want the whole to collapse.
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Don't feel bad, Trickstick. The dice can really screw you in this game, no matter how good you are. Rolling up bad leadership can really tie your hands behind your back. You probably had the game lost before you deployed. IN really needs to AAF to close with Chaos, and even then ordnance is the IN's strength. You need to be able to RO constantly, AAF to ram and you probably won't do much with gunnery if you can't LO. Bad Ld also means you can't BFI to save yourself from the torrent of fire you'll be facing. If the Chaos fleet had higher Ld, then they could out manuver and out fight you. What are you to do? It was against you from the beginning.
You should see if your opponent will agree to use our experimental rules. You may find them more fun and you'll definately find the game more balanced.
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Yeah, doing only damage to shields is a pretty poor showing for that many ships. Statistically, the two lunars alone should have been enough to take down the shields with just their lances not to mention the addition on the lances from the overlord. It does sound like you did some damage that game if you got a carnage to one hit. THat would be a good target to send bombers into or use some of your lances on. If he keeps it braced, the thing is as good as dead and if not you get some VP especially on an upgraded ship. Try to get him to brace his ships, they will be far less useful that way. What was the rest of his fleet like? Knowing more about what happened will help us figure out how to help you a bit more than general tactics.
Phthisis: Seriously dude, if you hate the game so much you feel compelled to post telling a guy he shouldn't even bother putting ships on the table because he already lost the game perhaps it's time to move on. I'm sure there was a lot more going on than simply rolling LD to determine the outcome. Your rules change the core dynamics of the game for ALL fleets; they do little to address balance between fleets. He asked for advice on how to deal with Chaos and the essence of what you've told him is to go change the game or don't bother playing.
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Don't feel bad, Trickstick. The dice can really screw you in this game, no matter how good you are. Rolling up bad leadership can really tie your hands behind your back. You probably had the game lost before you deployed.
lol, no he didn't lose the game at that point. He had bad gunnery, does your system change that? ;)
What I do wonder, Trickstick: he had a refitted Carnage, you rolled bad leadership. Are you playing one off game or campaign? In a campaign you build Ld up per ship. And refitted Carnages can only exist in a campaign.
And then even later in the campaign, not at the beginning.
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@Vaaish
Stop flipping out. I expect more from you.
I don't hate the game. I'm just not a fan of the SO system. Its my love of the game that inspired me to want to make it better. And its my love of the game that keeps me willing to argue with you about it day after day.
You may not like what I have to say, but am I wrong? Dice can lose you the game. Bad Ld can screw you HARD. I play Chaos. I've won because I was able to LO like a champ but bad Ld prevented them from BFI. It wass no fun. Random Ld and Ld tests on the front end may be 'realistic' but it puts control of the game firmly in the hands of the dice. Im offering an alternative for players who want a game based more on strategy than luck. Who are you to tell people they have to.play BFG how you want them to play? I just suggested our rule changes as an alternative to playing games like this.
Look at all the advice given to Trickstick. Every strategy revolves around using SO. AAF the whole fleet. Torpedos and AC. Ramming. All require tests against his leadership scores. If he cant pass the Ld tests, then what's he supposed to do? Go toe to toe with Slaughters at broadsides? That's rediculous. He can't even BFI reliably!
If you don't think that's a problem, then give him tactics to defeat a Chaos fleet without using SO. Good luck.
Explain how changing SO disrupts game balance, but do it in my thread. I don't think you have a leg to stand on here. It better be good.
I'm not listening to complaints about changing core rules from the editor of an ezine that publishes changes to core rules. Actually, once I get these written up fully I'd like to submit them to Warp Rift for publishing.
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You think he will publish it?
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Sure, why not? Vaaish may disagree with me vehemently, but he's not petty. WR publishes alternative rules all the time. Some rules changes they've published are more radically different than ours. He won't let his personal opinion interfere with his integrity.
Sorry, not trying to threadjack.
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IF this is a campaign, consider this tactic.
I call it an assassination mission.
Play a battle, increase the odds of him bringing in the target ship. Load your fleet with at least two or three nova cannons and plenty of torps.
For the first few rounds, act normally, while moving your ships into a position for an alpha strike. Then HIT THE TARGET WITH EVERYTHING YOU GOT! short range nova cannons, torpedos, bombers, make sure the ship DIES. Then, when it dies, disengage with whatever you have left. Sure you lose the mission, but the enemy ship you needed to kill is dead. You lost the battle, but the war just got a LOT easier.
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As long as dice determine damage, the game is in the hands of the dice. No way around it. Telling a guy that's trying to learn how to play his fleet better that the game was lost before he put a model on the table isn't all that constructive. I'm n ot flipping out, just asking that you provide the guy with something more constructive than "ha, your screwed might as well pack it up or use my own personal rules."
Explain how changing SO disrupts game balance, but do it in my thread. I don't think you have a leg to stand on here. It better be good.
I'm not listening to complaints about changing core rules from the editor of an ezine that publishes changes to core rules. Actually, once I get these written up fully I'd like to submit them to Warp Rift for publishing.
Of course we'll publish it, it IS related to BFG no matter how misguided I think it is. Although, I don't think I'll bother providing any explanation your thread since you've just said you were going to ignore whatever I say simply because I edit a fanzine that publishes rules created by fans. Sadly, I can't say I expected more.
anyway, back at the topic on hand, it would be good to get a bit more information as to what happened and what you are playing, Trickster. If you are playing a campaign, it sounds like you might have had some severe losses at the start of the campaign leaving you with fresh ship on LD6 or rolled poorly. In either case, low LD doesn't kill the game. You need to think a bit harder about how to use the battlefield to your advantage and work to get your ships out in once piece even if it means losing the battle. That means you should try to stay near the edges of the board so you can disengage without requiring a LD test by just turning off the edge of the board. You'll probably need to squadron a lot more since you can't afford to lose dice from BM interference. If possible squadron with any higher LD ships and try to keep those from being the closest target so you have better odds of SO and prevent them from being targeted. Long range weapons like NC are also good since they are SO independent.
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From my experiences, negating some of the long range benefits that the Chaos have over the IN is the AAH method. Getting close enough to smash them with torps, punch through their center with ramming (if you can), and try to use both of your broadsides. That would be the optimal situation. Obviously, the Chaos player has plans of his own and isn't just letting you do what you want. The list I like to use it a Retribution, 2 Dictators, 2 Armageddons, 2 Lunars, and whatever else I can fit in. I use them as a huge shield wall and keep escorts/2 lance dauntless behind to protect them/do additional damage.
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@Phithisis,
The OP is asking for tactics to use. Please stick to that. I think that's the second time you have tried to insert your rules in a post which is not related to it. Please refrain from doing it again.
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@Vaaish
You misunderstand. I'm not going to take criticism THAT I changed the rules from you. Criticism on HOW I changed the rules is exactly what I have been begging for. I would greatly appreciate it if you would point out any imbalance in my thread.
@Trickstick
BFG is a great game. But like any strategy wargame there are bad match-ups and sometimes victory isn't in the dice. Sometimes youre just screwed. Apparently people think my comments were designed to crush your spirit. On the contrary, I just want you to understand that you had the chips stacked heavily against you in that situation. The game was still worth playing if you like the game and your opponent.
Strategy wise, there are some lessons to take from this experience. First, the IN fleet is heavily dependent on SO, therefore Ld is very important. You need to do your best to mitigate bad leadership rolls. First of all, squadron a lot. A Ld6 ship in a squadron with a Ld8 ship is essentially Ld8. Second, take advantage of the ability to place your admiral on any ship you like. Put him on a ship in a squadron that needs to RO often, like Dictators. Third, buy some rerolls. Squadroning is free, but the admiral & rerolls can set you back the price of a cruiser. This isnt teneble in smaller games, is ineffective in larger games and can't offset a truly awful set of Ld rolls. Rerolling on Ld6 still sucks.
That still sounds gloomy, doesn't it? Well, as I said before I'm not happy about the way Ld works. But IN is really a great fleet! And the advice you got here about combating Chaos here has been spot-on.
Is your Chaos opponent experienced? Once youve got the AAF tactic down, things get a lot more interesting vs Chaos.
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I am playing in a campaign at the moment, I thought I had mentioned that but must have forgotten. The worst thing is that both of my dictators rolled ld6 at the start. This leaves me with only the mars as a decent carrier, as it is my flagship.
I actually won a raid last night. We were playing "the raiders" and I took and apocalypse, dominator and two dauntless light cruisers against four slaughters. Not technically a legal list as the dominator should be a reserve ship but we only figured that out afterwards and it is a campaign game anyway. I lost both dauntless but took out two slaughters and crippled another. The apocalypse managed to get a +5cm speed refit too, which is nice.
Anyway, I had never considered staying close to the edge in order to make fleeing easier, so thanks for that advice Vaaish. I think I need to break my 40k mentality, where the board edges can be very dangerous places to be.
At the moment I have 3 opponents and a few more on the horizon. I'm the only pure Imperial player by the looks of it.
Player A has an inquisition based fleet, with a fair amount of navy ships, a blackship and an Inquisitorial cruiser, plus a load of grey knights ships.
Player B is the experienced chaos player, he was the one who taught us how to play and has been playing longer than any of us. He likes slaughters and carnage class cruisers, with one or two desolators and devastators mixed in.
Player C uses the planet killer and a good mix of cruisers. The planet killer can be really annoying if it takes out ordnance. However, the main gun has been nicknamed "the shield-tickler" after some poor shooting.
Other than that there is a guy who plays Tau and a guy getting into space marines, possibly using the armageddon list although he may go pure.
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Cool to hear about all those people playing.
Not technically a legal list as the dominator should be a reserve ship but we only figured that out afterwards and it is a campaign game anyway.
In a campaign your complete campaign roster must obey the 'rules'. Eg 3 cruiser to take 1 reserve cruiser.
However when playing the battle itself one does not need to follow the 'rules', one may bring any ship/squadron from his roster.
So, in a campaign, you can field 1 Battleship + 4 escorts in a game if that is what you want.
As long as the roster is legal.
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Oh that is fine then. I only have one battleship, two battlecruisers and one reserve cruiser on the roster, with about 7 normal/light cruisers.
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If your mars has decent LD as the flagship, I would think about squadroning the dictators with it in battles and using them as shields. That way you can get your ordnance reloaded and with the 2010 FAQ you aren't required to disengage the entire squadron if one ship leaves. If you play your cards right you should be able to start building your LD even if you ended up disengaging early to prevent ships from getting crippled.
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We seem to have missed that bit of 2010. That makes squadrons a lot more viable.