Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Vaaish on August 11, 2011, 09:15:17 PM
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So after dropping this for quite some time, Zac and started discussing the possibilities again. I had a bit of time today so I whipped up these to get some feedback. There have been a few changes, but the overall effect is that they can be stacked flat with the raised parts fitting into the underside of the marker above. They all fit 2x 10mm dice to mark the strength of the salvo. I've only optimized the lower right options so far, but at least using the white strong and flexible it should be something like $25USD for 15-20 markers including shipping using the white strong and flexible. I'll still need to see how well they print though.
The one in the upper left isn't really an option as the torpedo is too small.
(http://www.twolandscreative.com/wip/bfg/tokens.jpg)
better shot of the "cheap" marker.
(http://www.twolandscreative.com/wip/bfg/untitled.jpg)
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I like them. Will the torpedoes vary with ability? Eldar, tau, boarding etc?
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should be something like $25USD for 15-20 markers including shipping using the white strong and flexible.
Wow at that price if the quality is acceptable there's not much point casting in resin!
The cutout in the bottom for stacking is a good idea too.
So to have them bought via Shapeways or resin cast?Sounds like some pencil sharpening is in order... ;)
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Fracas: theoretically they could. Once the layout is fixed it's just a matter of swapping out the relief for various other objects. I probably wouldn't do anything that's close to the GW look for Tau and Eldar so as not to run afoul of their IP rules but torpedoes are pretty fair game.
Zac: yeah, that's what I'm hoping. If we bumped up to the next best material, the black detail, the price would probably end up at $30 for the same number. I think it'll be fine though with the cheaper since there isn't a whole lot of tiny details and it's mostly flat planes. I'll be tweaking both the flat relief and more object type relief tomorrow to make it a bit easier to work with and fix some lingering issues.
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I guess these are the types of threads that get me to come back...
I like the above designs simplicity and I think it's cool that they can stack, although I'm not sure of the purpose of stacking.
What I don't care about the 2D6 setup is that it requires...well, 2D6. I feel that a tray that has two dice is cumbersome and crowded. Imagine grabbing one die to flip without bumping another that is really close. To get around this I prefer using 2 different colored dice. For example, when a white die is in the tray then that means there are a number of torpedoes equal to 6 + the number on the white die. Once the torpedo count goes below 7 (i.e. less then 1 on a white die) then I swap out the white die for a black die to count the final 6. Thus 12-7 is represented by a white die an 6-1 by a black, or whatever pairing of colored dice you desire to use.
Also, I've found that you want the tray to be relatively deep, about a quarter of the dies height. This makes it hard to bump the die lose, but easy to remove if grasped. Lastly, to keep the base spacious I prefer using a single 8mm die because it's just big enough for adult hands, easier to obtain cheaply then 10mm dice, and it's unobtrusive, meaning it won't stick out to much if you choose to actually model the torpedoes.
I have ordnance markers for Full Thrust fighters that I made that follow the above principles and use an 8mm black die. The die is the perfect size in my opinion, as it doesn't get in the way of the fighter stands, but it's easy to grab and flip:
(http://www.russandxuan.com/forums/BFG/proto_base/BFG_Ordnance_Prototype_02.jpg)
(http://www.russandxuan.com/forums/BFG/proto_base/BFG_Ordnance_Prototype_01.jpg)
And I made a 1cm square one for BFG that I have not cast duplicate of yet. It uses the 8mm tray as well. Just imagine this base finished with 3 little torpedoes on it like the above FT fighter base:
(http://www.russandxuan.com/forums/BFG/proto_base/BFG_Ordnance_Prototype_03.jpg)
(http://www.russandxuan.com/forums/BFG/proto_base/BFG_Ordnance_Prototype_04.jpg)
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2 dice on the torp marker is the way the faq handles torpedoes.
Despite all the whining from us a torp marker should be max 1 d6. But Nate did not listen.
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2 dice on the torp marker is the way the faq handles torpedoes.
Despite all the whining from us a torp marker should be max 1 d6. But Nate did not listen.
I guess I don't see the difference between using 2D6 of different colors, with one out at a time, and using 2D6 always out on the marker (as stated in the FAQ). You're still getting 1-12 in strength designation, but saving the space and fiddly-ness.
Russ
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Russ: I see your point in using the one tray and swapping it out, but with how the FAQ handles things most people will be using two dice to represent the value. It would have been a far more elegant solution all around if it had been 1d6 per marker, but alas it is not to be. Because of that, the tray has to seat two dice which should cover the majority of situations (it won't work if three dauntless fire a salvo though). I picked 10mm because it's still fairly large to aid picking up the dice but small enough that two fit nicely on the base and because it hollows out more space which keeps the cost of the bases down. It should still work alright with 8mm dice.
Since the details on the bases are raised, I wanted them to be able to stack so that the raised bits wouldn't make them take up extra space. That way you can more easily store them.
Right now the thickness of the base is 2mm and the tray for the dice is inset about 1.8mm.
Anyway, after further refinement, here's where I'm at:
Type 1 and 2 are all ready to go. I just need to do a test run to make sure they all print as expected in the various materials. Right now I'm leaning toward type 1 as being the final because it has the most utility in the long run to create flat outlines of other types of AC.
(http://www.twolandscreative.com/wip/bfg/tokensupdate.jpg)
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Do you know about this?
http://www.litko.net/products/Gothic-Space-Missiles.html
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Do you know about this?
http://www.litko.net/products/Gothic-Space-Missiles.html
Both of the bases in my above pictures started with acrylic cut by LitkoAreo through custom requests. Jim rocks and will do just about anything at incredible prices. The problem is that his laser cutter will cut all the way through the acrylic so you can't have him cut a "divot" out for a tray. You'd have to cap the bottom afterwards.
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yeah, I've used Liko a few times and I've been happy with the results, but what I'm aiming for is something that can be painted and has some detail or modeling on it. Litko is a completely different style of marker.
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It's coming along very nicely. I agree that type 1 will be best in order to have the space available for other types of AC.
I'm not a fan of the Litko stuff either. "Tokens" make things to much like a board game for my taste...
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I've gone ahead and ordered protoypes for the markers in the cheap white strong and flexible material, the white/black detail, and frosted ultra detail. If they all print and print acceptably I'll be making the mares available on the store. I can offer singles through shapeways, but there is one rather annoying problem. Even if you order 8 markers in the same type material, they charge you the setup fee for each marker which basically kills any economy you get from printing them. $3.50 is a bit much.
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Will be keen to see the result!
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These have turned somewhat more complicated due to some of the constraints imposed by shapeway for the different material types. So far I've had to do two revisions tweaking the wall thickness. As it stands now, the modeled missile versions will only be available in the frosted ultra detail and the white strong and flexible pending the latest version actually making it to print.
The flat marker should still be available in the various materials. I am somewhat annoyed by this since part of the issue is the thickness of the material that forms the solid base. It's an area that should have zero difficulty printing as it covers a solid area and isn't part of the walls so it doesn't have to support the weight underneath. Hopefully this round will go through and I'll be able to post images next week.
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This...makes me excited.
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Small update on this. I'd hoped to post pictures of the prints tonight, but it seems that UPS has failed yet again and the bits didn't show up today despite the tracking info promising they'd be here. Hopefully they will show up tomorrow. If all goes well I'll be adjusting everything on shapeways to print multiples of each stand rather than the single base I had in the file to test the print quality.
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I also am excited about this. I'd buy sets.
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Ok, the markers came tonight and we have a bit of a mixed bag. Frosted Ultra Detail turned out quite spectacularly and I'm sure would paint up nicely for any of the markers.
The rest was a bit of a different story though as the following pic will show:
(http://www.twolandscreative.com/wip/bfg/testprint01.jpg)
The top row is the frosted ultra detail. The middle is the same file printed with the white strong and flexible.
The last row is a slightly different file printed in white strong and flexible on the left and black detail on the right. I've also zoomed in on the WSF and frosted ultra detail to show just how grainy the WSF is. I'll be posting a pic of this properly painted up, but the result so far is that the dice tray work great, however the full 3d missiles just aren't showing the detail of the fins outside of the frosted ultra detail and are probably not worth pursuing as a printed object.
That leaves the flat marker which I personally prefer. In WSF it's a bit grainy for what I'd like although it's pretty cheap I'm still not happy with the quality so I may not release it in that material. That leave the black and white detail which both seem adequate and frosted ultra detail. Any thoughts?
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They will show up much better with some painting and highlights, doncha think?
Whats the price tag on these babies? I want some :)
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I assume they will, which is why I'm in the process of painting up the black detail and WSF flat markers as I type. If they turn out acceptably once painted then I'll offer the material. Shapeways has a minimum order of $25 USD, so I'm looking to cram in as may as I can. With the WSF, I got around 15 in there. With the detail materials I might be able to eek out a similar number but I'm not sure yet.
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A question, what exactly is this shapeways thing?
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Shapeways is the company that prints the markers. I'm not going to be casting them myself, but shapeways does let me post them in a "store" so if you order shapeways print them off and ships them to you.
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So you designed them on the site, or do you have to do the 3d work yourself? Pretty sweet company.
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I did all the 3d work on them myself. They just print them and ship. Anyway, I did get a quick paint job on these tonight. I'd still like to adjust them a bit by highlighting the edges of the tokens, but here's the result on the important parts. The one to the far left is the Black Detail and the others are the white strong and flexible material. I almost think that they turned out well enough to allow the WSF material. You can still see the graineyness when you zoom in. It's also important to note the WSF material absorbs paint like crazy.
(http://www.twolandscreative.com/wip/bfg/testprint02.jpg)
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I'm sold for several. How much are we talking about here?
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I'm fairly positive that shapeways increased the cost of their materials again. I had figured that the detail materials would be around 35 for 15 and the white strong and flexible would be 25 for 15. The actual breakdown for cost is this:
15x White Strong and Flexible: $26.93
15x Frosted Detail: $42.55
15x Black Detail: $44.50
15x White Detail: $44.36
15x Frosted Ultra Detail: $57.53
All prices are USD and include shipping.
Here's the link to the model for purchase:
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/vaaish
Just be warned that the WSF ones aren't as good of resolution. They work and paint up nice, but they don't look as good as the black detail materials. I'm going to be looking into ways of reducing the cost a bit too but I don't think there is much I can do since I'm already at the minimum wall thickness for the detail materials. I may be able to shave a bit off by beveling the top edge a bit but I don't think there will be any significant reductions.
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I forwarded the thread to my BFG friends, and one of them had the suggestion of making the torpedo shape etched, instead of relief - to lower the cost.
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That is a good thought, but having the torpedo etched is not possible for a couple of reasons. First, not so much a technical constraint as aesthetic, is that the point was to have raised detail on the token since it's easier for light to catch the edges on raise details than sunken. Technically though, making the relief sunken isn't going to save any material. I've actually hollowed out the entire underside of the base on the side with the missile relief to the very minimum wall thickness (you can sort of see this on the zoomed in view of the unpainted FUD). This was both to save cost and to allow the markers to stack flat with the relief fitting inside the base of the marker on top. To make the relief sunken rather than raised means that I'll have to fill in the underside and remove the material from the top which comes out to less material removed because the shape of the missile on the marker is less area than the rectangle I'm filling in to maintain the minimum wall thickness.
Basically where the problem comes in is this: The minimum wall thickness for the black and white detail materials is 1mm. That means I have to have at least 1mm of material under the bottom of the tray side and on top of the hollowed out section on the left or shapeways won't print them. In order to get that without killing the ability to actually hold the dice, I had to make the base 2.5mm thick.
Now, the other option was to build them only to print in the White Strong and Flexible and FUD materials. That reduces the tolerance to .7mm as the minumum wall thickness and means that I'm able to make the marker 2mm thick. In other words, to have the option for the Detail materials which are far better quality prints, I had to add .5mm of material to each marker. The end result being that 15 markers are around $26USD while 18 of the thinner markers are $25USD.
What this leaves for options is to attempt to save material somewhere else on the model and right now the only somewhere that hasn't been tweaked are the edges of the marker. I'm looking at adding a beveled edge around the outside which should save a bit of material compounded by each marker for what I hope will be significant savings. I'm also looking at making greater contrast in the levels on the relief to help fix some of the issues with the WSF material too which may make the option for the better materials less necessary especially if I can get it to 20 markers for 25USD which is the minimum dollar value for an order on shapeways.
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After further tweaks, I've put up a version limited to just the WSF, FUD, and FD materials. The price hasn't really changed, but I've managed to squeeze in 5 more markers than the previous set for a total of 20 markers which makes it about $1.34 per marker. Unfortunately, I won't be able to buy another test run but most of the tweaks made the detail more defined on the missile and added the beveled edge so there shouldn't be any printing issues. The link is the same as before.
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/vaaish
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I'm sorely tempted to pick up a 20 pack of these. They look nice and sweet.
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If you do, remember two things. First, the cheap WSF material is grainy which makes edges slightly fuzzy and second, it absorbs paint like crazy so a good coat of primer would be recommended. I'm only leaving the material there since it's cheap and nearly indestructible but you are losing the crispness of the mid-range materials. That said, with a steady hand you can block in the colors easily enough and do some quick dry brushing to highlight most areas.
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You may very well be getting some more advertising for these torpedo markers come April. I'm potentially working on having a single WSF marker (or maybe one of the other types if Adepticon is willing to spring for a higher quality token) be a giveaway piece for each of the BFG tournament players.
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that's pretty cool, but come april I may no longer be offering them in WSF. I'm checking with Paulson Games to cast the FUD markers in Resin. If they can be done effectively and priced similar the markers wil probably be offered there due to the much higher quality of the resin markers.
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Great stuff Vaaish! Just ordered a pack in FUD. :D
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Thanks! I hope you like them, the FUD versions are definitely the nicest of the bunch.
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Had some time tonight so I figured I might as well finish out the set. Here's markers for Fighters, Bombers, and Assault Boats. Still need to check them vs. the torpedo marker to make sure the levels will print properly.
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Wow that's awesome looking and frankly so much more usable in practice than piles of AC stands everywhere
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Thanks, well after much annoyance with scaling (seems you shouldn't set blender unit scaling to match the size you need) I was able to get a test print processed and ordered. With any luck they will turn out acceptably and I can put up the full marker collection.
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Well I got the WSF markers today and they turned out just about a expected so I presume that the other materials will also play nice. I'll see about getting these up in the next few days in packs of 15 markers. I'll also see about doing packs of 5 or 10 to have some cheaper options.
(http://www.twolandscreative.com/wip/bfg/wsfMarkers.jpg)
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If these do well do you plan on creating some additional items for other races? For instance it'd be great to have a TBrick marker (and yes I know you can accomplish this with convention :D ) and some eldar styled stuff!
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We will have to see. Markers like this are pretty niche market wise since printed ones work just as well. Mainly these are for folks who don't want full modeled markers due to storage and don't like the printed ones. Tbh these haven't sold incredibly well as it is but I thought I should finish the line.
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Well I've now got the 15 packs up for the bombers and AB. These will print fine with WSF but you'll need some patience to paint them. Black detail or Frosted Ultra Detail are recommended but far more expensive (due to the material costs on Shapeways).
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/vaaish
EDIT: ok, the fighter marker is now up and ready.
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and here they are painted. I lightly filed the flat edges and then coated the marker with a very thin layer of wood glue before priming them.
(http://www.twolandscreative.com/wip/bfg/markersPainted.jpg)
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Holy hell, they look good. I'm going to be scrounging eBay for AC stands, but this may just replace that need altogether. ;)
Would buying them painted be an option? ;D
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Right now, painted isn't an option. I guess in the future I could look into full color printing and see how that goes but I can't say I've been impressed with what I've seen for the cost of doing it in color.
You CAN pick them up in black detail or one of the WSF colors which would save time in painting them.
BTW general question for everyone, right now each marker type comes in it's own set of 15 markers and unless you are playing some seriously large games or have a penchant for LB in your fleet, I'm not sure it's completely necessary. The units were set up originally because Shapeways had a 25 USD min order which doesn't exist anymore.
So what sounds best to everyone:
16 markers (8 fighters, 8 bombers)
12 markers (4 fighters, 8 bombers)
12 markers (4 fighters, 4 bombers, 4 AB)
8 markers in packs of their own.