Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Ghuda on August 25, 2011, 07:11:42 PM
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In my group we decided to organize our own little tournament with the following rules:
- fleets are limited to 1500 points
- table size 120cm x 120cm
- there is a pool for celestial phenomena consisting 1 small planet, 1 small astroid field (5 x 10), 1 large astroid field (10 x15) & 2 dust clouds. Each player may choose one of these phenomena and place it on the battlefield.
I play Eldar MMS or Chaos (I can't choose) and will play vs IN, Chaos, Necron, FW tau & Tyranids.
Eldar MMS List:
Void stalker + assault boats + Shadow prince 530
Aurora + Gryphon knights 165
Aurora + Gryphon knights 165
3x Nightshades 150
3x Nightshades 150
3x Hemlocks 150
3x Hemlocks 150
Extra reroll 25
Total= 1485
Chaos list:
Styx + Warmaster Ld +2 360
Devestation + Chaos Space marines 225
Murder 170
Murder 170
Hades 200
Slaughter + Chaos Lord + Mark of Slaanesh 215
3x Idolator 135
Extra reroll 25
Total = 1500
Please help me to make a choice between these lists and advice me on how to improve these lists with my recources.
For Eldar I've got an eclipse, a shadow, 3 aconites and 3 hemlocks and for Chaos I've got 4 cruisers (unassembled), desolator (unassembled), 3 idolators & 3 iconoclasts which I can use to improve my lists.
Thnx!
Ghuda
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Hi,
good group and you know why. ;)
Chaos
With what you have I would keep the list if you are in an ordnance heavy enviroment. Otherwise try to fit in the Desolator.
This my list, not tournament minded but what I tend to field:
Desolator
Styx
2x Carnages
Slaughter
6x Infidel
3x Iconoclast
But with all unassembled stuff... your options are endless.
Eldar
You need more escorts.
Drop an Aurora. Or drop the Void Stalker to an Eclipse.
(so 1 VS + 1 aurora or 1 Eclipse + 2 Aurora).
With those points freed add 3 Aconites.
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Bah, whatever. I think your Eldar fleet is fine. I would keep the Void Stalker; the option of dropping an Aurora and the Griffon Knights on the other Aurora for some more escortage is something to think about. I personally like having 2 Auroras but I will field a Void Stalker as often as I can. I do think that Aconites would be a good addition knowing how many pulsars you have.
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Chaos
Less escorts to get a second slaughter
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Bah, whatever. ?
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If you were going to go Chaos I think the following would be a fairly strong list:
WM + MoT- 80 pts
Desolator - 300 pts
Styx - 260 pts
Devastation x 2 - 380 pts
Carnage x 2 - 360 pts
Infidel x 3 OR Cobra x 4 - 120 pts
Total - 1500 pts
You do not have either Infidels or Cobras, but could either borrow some Cobras from your IN friend or Infidels from your Chaos friend or buy some or use your Idolators to count as Infidels or your Iconoclasts to count as Cobras. Alternatively you could swap out the escorts and Styx for a couple more cruisers, any mix of Carnages and Devs would do.
I would however use the MMS Eldar list, if only to provide as much racial diversity as possible for the tournament. For Eldar I would swap out an Aurora and grab the Aconites to boost your battery power, which will be quite useful against Chaos and Tyranids, and is essential to be able to get any damage on a braced Necron vessel (also not too shabby against IN/Tau). You might find yourself out matched in ordnance, particularly from the Tau, Nids and possibly Chaos too. In this case you can swap out the Auroras and pick up the Eclipse (+GK) and an Aconite.
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I was just whatevering the notion to drop cruisers. Its all in fun! ;D
What about fitting in the Void Stalker and the eclipse together? One could be on fighter duty, the other could bomber synergy with Nightshades.
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fun fun fun, that's why I said more escorts cause that is fluffy. ;)
Your idea (eclipse/vs) is what Sigoroth also mentions if the enviroment will be really ordnance heavy. Though Eldar can get aay with less carriers then other races. The setting is pretty cool btw with the opponents he will have.
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Thnx guys for all your advice!
I've decided to play with Eldar. I'm still not sure whether to take the eclipse and a single aconite or one aurora and three aconites.
I prefer the aurora and aconites because it gives me more firepower. But I'm afraid I will be overrun by ordnance of some opponents. Three of them will probably play ordnance heavy fleets (as Sigoroth mentioned). The tyranid player will probably have one or two hive ships with launch bays, the chaos player will have at least ten launch bays (he always plays with a devastation and a styx), and the tau will have lots and lots of torpedoes and six or so launch bays.
Is this environment ordnance heavy enough to take the eclipse or is it save to go for the aurora and the aconites?
Btw we changed a rule. We won't play with a celestial phenomena pool anymore, because everyone would choose the best phenomenon for his army. Therefore, we have decided to determine the terrain by using the tables in the rule book.
I'll keep you all up to date about my games as soon as I start playing and probably I'll come back to you for some tactical advice (I have not played many games yet with the MMS rules).
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I would go the Eclipse. You do lose a lot of firepower and the extra hits and shields of the 2 Aconites, but the Eclipse is considerably tougher than the Aurora and MMS Eldar are fairly susceptible to ordnance attacks, particularly Hemlocks and Nightshades. Since they're the main offensive element of your force I think protecting them is key. Also, Eldar bombers are quite potent, even in low numbers, so if you end up with AC surplus to requirements you still have the flexibility of using them offensively, mitigating the lost firepower.
You'll notice the loss of those WBs most against Necrons, but there's little to be done about that. If you had some Hellebores you could take a couple of them and therefore forego taking an Eclipse, allowing the Aconites to be included.
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Like Sig says, the Hellebore fighter bay would be an ideal protection in this case.
Celestial Phenomena pool? I would indeed just go with the rulebook rule = roll d6 per quadront (60x60)cm box. Following the guide per zone as the book says.
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Ok so, Horizon/Sigoroth, what point level would you try for VS + eclipse? Just curious, when is the lowest point level you would take a VS?
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I gotta agree on the "pool" by allowing people to place a predetermined piece of terrain your inviting people to get upset. Unfortunately too many people are bad sports and I can just see "man bob got to place the planet near his side so that's why he won". If you want each player to place something in their area I would roll for it randomly, then there's no reason for people to get upset.
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For me:
Void Stalker = 1500pts.
Void Stalker + Eclipse 2000pts
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I never gave the hellebores much thought, because with they are very expensive and not great in the original rules. But the launch bay makes them useful in ordnance heavy environments. I'll won't use them in this tournament but will definitely buy some for future games.
What is the point cost of them? because there are two point references 75 and 80 points.
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iirc mms 1.9 had them at 80pts. That is the version I created, thus not the BFG:R adaption.
But, yeah, due the original hellebore crap it is easily overlooked. But in mms we gave it purpose. yay.
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Hellebores are 75 pts in MMS v1.9, 80 pts if you upgrade them to minelayers. As for minimum points values to use the VS that's easy, 1k points. Minimum for a VS and Eclipse for me is 1500 pts.
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Now here she is! The paintwork is not completely done yet, but as a father of two kids I don't have that much time to spend on painting :(
(http://)
I name her the Varda fleet
50 Shadow Prince Fingon Ancale (Fingon The Radiant One)
480 Void Stalker + AB Elentari Ilfirin (Immortal Queen of the Stars)
285 Eclipse + GK Amal Orea (Mother of Dawn)
150 3x Nightshade Sorne Esta sq (Eagle I sq)
150 3x Nightshade Sorne Attea sq (Eagle II sq)
150 3x Hemlock Fealoce sq (Fire Dragon sq)
210 3x Hemlock + 1 Aconite Feanaro sq (Fire Spirit sq)
25 Extra Reroll
I used Quenya for the names of the ships (I play a lot of Dungeons and dragons, thus my Eldar are very elvish).
I will play my first battle in the tournament this friday against Chaos. My idea is to try to get my escorts (one sq of H & N on each side of the battlefield) behind his fleet and lure him to my capital ships (if it is possible with a hiding place for them nearby). Hopefully he will split up his fleet due to the threat of the escorts that I can strike his carriers and then I win the ordnance battle with my 8 launch bays and 16 torps.
Please I would like your opinions on how to fight chaos.
P.S. I can show you the fleet lists of all my opponents if you are interested
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I could not upload the picture of my fleet :(. The attachment folder is full or something.
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You have to be a little more cautious against chaos than most fleets because of their lr guns. Make sure you use your terrain to block los as much as possible.
When your moving your escorts take it a bit slower than you might against say imps and see how he reacts. If he moves to follow or intercept one take your ships on the other side around his back side while keeping your ships he is intercepting just out of gun range. Once you are behind him you can move your capitols around and move your escorts that are being intercepted to where they were, basically moving clock wise or counterclockwise around him. Once some of your ships are behind him hit and run to his rear staying to the limit of your range and dropping back your 2nd move. If the sun is with you the only weapons he might be able to use next turn will be his 60's if at all. If he breaks off to defend his rear you can move in for the kill with your other ships. If not continue to play cat and mouse trying to keep your sips to the extreme rear and at the limit of your range.
If they ignore your escorts and go after your caps get the escorts behind them as quickly as possible and hit them as above while keeping you caps outta range.
Use your fighters to cover the escorts targeting ab's then bomber waves as ab's are usually sent as singles or with a single fighter escort. Remember your 8 launch works out to 12 on average with their saves.
Your right in targeting launch ships first cripple or kill as many as need be for you to be on top with ordnance then focus on the longest range weapon threats.
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At Ghuda, sounds all good.
For the picture: upload it to sites like photobucket, flick, stashbox. Or if you have a gmail account with picasa to the webalbum. Then place a link to the picture in here.
At AndrewChrislieb, he is playing the (utterly cool) fanrules Eldar MMS v1.9. So nothing of this ridiculous dropping back with the 2nd move. ;)
In case of further questions, here is the link to those rules:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/archive/rules/gothic/geldarmms01.html
the first link, the link to the DE you can ignore except for the brilliant artwork.
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Horizon thnx!
Here is the link:
http://s1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa328/Ghuda1/?action=view¤t=IMG_1037.jpg
Any more thoughts on how to fight chaos?
Is someone interested in the my opponents' armies? We have decided to announce our fleet to each other before the games. So everyone can prepare for battle
In addition to my tactics, I 'll send two fighters with every escort squadron (on cap) to protect them
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Nice fleet. Sails need some more inner work I guess?
How to fight Chaos. Depends on the fleet.
As for fighter protection -> can be done but I would adapt to the battle flow.
Chaos has long range. But only 5+ prows. So batteries will be effective.
Make you attack run count. Timing is crucial. Do not go into attrition. It does not hurt to fly away and plan a new attack run.
Especially escorts are good for this.
Carriers are top priority when sniping.
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Ok cool sorry for the misunderstanding. I do see some really good things with the mms rules espically the added durability but I dont really get the mms part tho? This seems like it is designed to make the eldar play like all of the other races which kinda defeats the point of them being different. Ill have to play around with it and see if I can get a feel for it I guess ;D.
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Yeah, you should.
Yes, the become a little more like others but that is the key issue to avoid the msm (original rules) core rule breaking mechanism aka movement takes place in the movement phase.
mms means that Eldar are pretty fast and pretty manoeuvrable. Top if the bill. They still need to coordinate and time their attack runs.
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Last friday I lost my first battle :(. I made some stupid rokie mistakes in this batlle and learned a lot :).
I played against the folowing chaos fleet:
150p - Warmaster Ld 9 / Extra re-roll / Mark of Tzeentch
035p - Chaos Space Marines
260p - Styx Heavy Cruiser
190p - Acheron Heavy Cruiser
190p - Devastation Cruiser
180p - Inferno Cruiser
180p - Inferno Cruiser
165p - Slaughter Cruiser
150p - Iconoclast Escort x 5
On the field there was one little astroid field (15cm by 5cm) on the battle field near my deployment area.
The battle (short version):
In the first round I one of my nighshade sq was crippeled by lances. Then I got my oponent to split up his fleet (because I tried to get one sq of nightshades and one sq of hemlocks behind him) and attacked the two carriers with half my fleet (Void stalker + hemlocks with aconite), but could not destroy them before they disengaged due to stupid mistakes. On the other side of the table I decided to attack a cruiser as a distraction. I tried to lure him away from the carriers even more but I pushed this attack to much and I lost a whole squadron of nightshades and my sq of hemlocks, and my eclipse were crippled. In the end I could only cripple the styx, devastation and his iconoclast squadron ( I could not destroy the last escort). I did not have sufficient fire power left on the table to fight four cruisers and disengaged.
Next battle vs Imperials
The imperial fleet:
50 Captain (Ld8)
345 Victory Class Battleship
260 Dominion Class Battlecruiser
220 Dictator Class Cruiser
195 Dominator Class Cruiser (+Turret)
195 Dominator Class Cruiser (+Turret)
210 6x Viper Class Destroyer
25 1 Reroll
Thoughts on how to fight this army?
I know this guy and he won't split up his fleet so the tactics used vs chaos won't work
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Aside of Victory & Dominion the Imperial Navy has less gunnery range, less speed. So easier for to setup an attack run.
tomorrow more.
That you lost with mms ain't bad for the ruleset to be honest. I want a 50/50 approach of utter complete balance. haha
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I Agree!
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I like that imp list :D. Im assuming that he is taking the Dictator as a reserve? Almost all of their long range weapons are lances which works to your favor (lances dont like holo fields). As your closing try to keep a minimum of 6cm between your escorts (stem to stem) to limit the effectiviness of his novas and use any terrain you can to block them. Use your nightshades torps to knock out his larger salvos or use your manuverability to avoid them. Imps are slooooow.... use that to your advantage by making sure that when you have your ships at about 60cm out from his when you stop. By stoping 60cm out from him his next turn will leave him outside of range on all but his lr lances and 6 weps even if he aaf's on average. On your next movement he will be at 40-50cm (assuming he has not used aaf) placing you at the optimum point to move in close and unload focus on the dominators as they pose the biggest threat up close or the carriers if your having problems with them (you shouldn't be with your fighters). On his next turn he will have several braced or crippled ships and be forced to move at least 10cm past you to try and bring their guns to bear.
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tomorrow more.
I am looking forward to your opinion on how to fight this imperial army :)
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I have not yet played the battle against the imperials. :(
@andrew: I think the took the dictator as a reserve. Don't you need three cruisers from the bakka list to do this or is two cruisers and a battle cruiser also enough?
I like your ideas. Do you think I should split up my fleet and try to lure him to one side of the table? Or should I keep my fleet together and just target the dominators in my first attack run?
@horizon: I haven't played the battle yet and therefore I'm still interested in your opinion ;)
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75pts is the correct one for MMS v1.9.
I played vs mms Hellebores in a small Corsair fleet = good asset.
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If you really wanted to be a jerk the rules state one for 3 cruisers but id allow a battlecruiser to count. You could try to bring a group of your escorts around the side most people overlook them and focus on the bb and cruisers. I doubt he would split his fleet tho Imps work best when clumped togather.
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As far as reserves rules are concerned grand cruisers, battle cruisers, heavy cruisers and light cruisers all count as 'cruisers'.
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It has been a while. I still have not played vs the imperials (Busy with my job). We decided that we will end the tournament before the end of November with three simultaneous battles. I will play in that last battle vs imperials. So I have some time to prepare for this battle. Before the end of November I'll have to fight tau, tyranids and necrons. I will play vs necrons next week.
His list:
500pt - Cairn Class Tombship
275pt - Scythe Class Harvest Ship
275pt - Scythe Class Harvest Ship
155pt - Shroud Class Light Crouser
150pt - 3 Jackal Class Raiders
120pt - 3 Dirge Class Raiders
025pt - 1 extra fleet reroll
It's my idea to try to avoid the tombship and scythes as long as possible and focus my fire on the escorts and maybe the shroud. I think this is the best way to go and is all I can think of right now.
Any advice on how to fight them?
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The best advice I can give you for fighting Necrons is to not give up. It will seem like you're doing nothing and he's trouncing you for a lot of the fight but as the battle draws out you will eventually reach those magical thresholds (crippled/destroyed) and he'll be unable to afford to avoid to BFI. This greatly diminishes his firepower and therefore increases the value of your shields.
Apart from that, fire your WBs before your lances. If he braces against the WBs under the expectation of forthcoming lances then redirect those lances to unbraced ships. If he doesn't brace then at least your WBs will have had the greatest chance of causing damage and you can follow up with lances (which he may fail to brace against allowing for easier damage).
Spread your fire. Throw incidental shots in wherever you may. Make it hard for him to decide if it's worth bracing. Only focus fire when a ship is near a crippled/destroyed threshold. The exception being the escorts feel free to throw as much firepower into them as it takes, until they brace of course.
Your priorities should be to destroy/shutdown the escorts, then to destroy the Shroud, then to shutdown the Scythes. Try to avoid the Cairn as much as possible, don't focus fire on it, the occasional lance shot into it is fine. Focus on the rest of the fleet first.
As for manoeuvring, you'll want to put yourself behind the cruisers. If you can make him turn his ships in different directions you'll get best results, as Necrons really need to stick together. If he goes on AAF he'll typically end up getting split up due to the large variance in AAF distance. This is good. You can split your fleet in order to make him chase you and use your great speed to form up again later.
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Do everything your not supposed to. Shoot everything not just one ship, fire lances first, force him to brace as much as you can. Cover your rear! They're going to be there :D. More so than any fleet other than eldar you have to anticipate where they are going to be due to their speed so you can be ready for them.
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Do everything your not supposed to. Shoot everything not just one ship, fire lances first, force him to brace as much as you can. Cover your rear!
Er, no, don't fire lances first, fire WBs first.
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Against everything but necrons I'd agree sig but if you have enough lances to force him to brace your weps get a column shift but hit on a 4+ instead of 6+. Being that he's playing eldar and gets a left shift auto they just balance out.
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Against everything but necrons I'd agree sig but if you have enough lances to force him to brace your weps get a column shift but hit on a 4+ instead of 6+. Being that he's playing eldar and gets a left shift auto they just balance out.
No, I'm talking specifically against Necrons here, not just a general rule. Fire WBs first. Even though you don't actually get a column shift for firing lances first, since Necrons don't have shields and therefore you don't place blast markers for hits, you should still fire the WBs first.
Against a braced Necron ship, regardless of type, a single non locked-on WB die has a 1/12 chance of causing a point of damage (1/2 chance of hitting, 1/6 chance of getting past brace save). This translates as 0.08 average damage. A single locked-on WB has a 1/8 chance of causing a point of damage (3/4 chance of hitting, 1/6 chance of getting past brace save). This translates as 0.13 damage. Lock-on provides a 50% increase in effectiveness. When unbraced however, the chances of causing damage differ depending upon the ship's base save.
Against a 4+ base save, ie Tombships, the chance of causing damage with a non locked-on WB die is the same as against a braced ship, 1/12, or 0.08 average damage. This is because you've got a 1/6 chance of hitting and a 1/2 chance of getting past the save rather than 1/2 chance of hitting and a 1/6 chance of getting past the save, giving the same outcome. However, locking on allows you to re-roll the 1/6 chance in this case. So when locked on you have an 11/72 chance of causing damage, or 0.15 average damage. Locking-on against unbraced Necron ships provides an 83% increase in effectiveness compared to only a 50% increase vs braced Necron ships.
Against a 5+ save (Scythes, Shrouds, etc) the chance of causing a hit with any one die is 1/6 x 2/3 = 1/9, or an average damage of 0.11.This is better than when braced. It is better still when locked-on, due to the 83% increase in effectiveness.
Against a 6+ save (escorts) the chance of causing a hit with any one die is 1/6 x 5/6 = 5/36, or an average of 0.14 damage. Again locking on is +83% firepower rather than +50%.
So firing against an unbraced Necron ship is better than firing against a braced one, particularly when on LO.
Now, this isn't the only factor to account for of course. When you're firing against a Necron ship that is already braced, in order to do that last point of damage to cripple/destroy it for example, it is better to use WBs. Lances gain nothing when the Necron ship is braced, whereas WBs do triple their base chance to hit. So if you have to shoot at a braced Necron ship, WBs are what you should use.
Also, you should be trying to force him to brace. This is because it is fairly easy to force a lot of Necron ships to brace (due to lack of shields) and to prevent the use of AAF, LO and his special weapons. Halving his firepower also greatly helps increase your survivability.
Now, given all of this it is much better to fire your WBs first. If your opponent braces against your WBs, with the expectation of lances to follow, then your WBs have lost a little effectiveness but you've forced your opponent to brace with only your WBs. Now simply redirect your lances to another Necron ship. This will maximise your forced-brace opportunities. However, if he does not brace, waiting for you to commit your lances, then you will at least maximise your WB damage while maintaining focus on the one ship (therefore increasing your chances of reaching a damage threshold). If you fired your lances first and he braced then your WBs will do less damage to that target. If you redirect your WBs elsewhere then they are not as much of a threat and are easier to ignore (ie, decide to not brace against). This will mean that you'll maximise your WB firepower, but not at the same target and you'll have minimised your potential for forced-braces.
In short, fire WBs first.
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Ok 30 hours of work on 4 hours of sleep and a red bull = I don't get it :P. All I know is I've found it best to get them to brace then hit them with my weapons batteries to damage. Now this is just going off of my experiences playing tho.
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Ok 30 hours of work on 4 hours of sleep and a red bull = I don't get it :P. All I know is I've found it best to get them to brace then hit them with my weapons batteries to damage. Now this is just going off of my experiences playing tho.
It's not too difficult. Hitting them with WBs first maximises your chances of crippling/destroying your target and maximises your forced-brace opportunities.
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Psychology. Sigoroth is right on every aspect regarding Necrons.
Many players have been misled by that old Tactica from SG/fanatic magazine (or other bfg magazine).
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Hum I think the first time I saw that was warp rift... At any rate your probably right about it being psycho. Getting a lot of hits that do nothing feels better than not getting very many hits that... Also pretty much do nothing :P.
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Against the Tobmship it won't matter at all.
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Against the Tobmship it won't matter at all.
Unless you're locked on, in which case you do slightly more damage when it's unbraced.
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VICTORY!!!!
On the field there were three astroid fields on one quadrant of the field. Therfore, they were close together
Battle in short:
The necrons started with AAF. But two leadership checks failed and he had to use his two rerolls right away. I hid behind the astroid fields and fired some torpedoes and bombers (and fighters) to pervent him from coming to my side of the astroid fields. He passed the astroid fields on the other side and only his shroud was not yet behind the astroid field. Therefore I could attack it with my weapon batteries and some lances. He did not BFI and I got two hits. In the ordnance fase I sent my bombers for the kill. He still did not BFI and I got two other hits. Bye bye Shroud! In his round he AAFed again and fired everything on my Eclipse and crippled it. In my turn the eclipse disengaged and I turned around the astroid fields. He followed but he was to close to the edge of the field and had to use CTNH and BR special orders and therfore cold not follow me with his cruisers and tombship. His escorts were on BFI and he engaged my nightshades killing one of them. Next turn I engaged his two squadrons escorts with all of my ships, destroying his all jackals and killing all but one dirge (all his BFI's failed).
He disengaged his last dirge and fired at me with one scythe and destroying two nightshades (of the other squadron). Next turn I disengaged with my fleet.
Victory points Eldar:
destroyed shroud: 310
destroyed jackal squadron 150
crippeled dirge squadron 30
total: 490
Victory points Necrons:
crippeled eclipse 72
crippeled nightshade squadron 38
disengaging fleet 115
total: 225
Next battle vs tyranids or vs tau.
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Sweet sounds like a lot of fun! Why was he aaf so much tho? Seems like a bad idea with you hiding behind the fields to me. He seems to have had some really bad luck with the dice also, missing all of his bfi.
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Good! Fun is most important. :)
Shows Shrouds are good targets.
Soon I'll face Necrons.
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It was good fun!
@ andrew He Aafed so much because he wanted to get close a.s.a.p. and the second time he wanted to follow me around the astroid field.
@horizon You don't have to fear Necrons that much (I did before the battle). They are tough but Cosair Eldar can outmaneuver them. I had some luck with the astroid fields and him failing his BFI's. Maybe the dice gods will be on your side too. :) With which of your fleets will you fight them?
Next battle is vs tyranids.
His fleet:
11 Kraken with bio-plasma and Tenacity upgrade
10 Kraken with massive claws and Solar Vanes upgrade
11 Vanguard Drones with feeder tentacles and Extra Spore Cyst upgrade
I don't know what to do. They will be everywhere on the field. My first idea is to try stay out of his reach and cripple one kraken squadron with ordnance and then disengage. Otherwise I have to get close to his ships and I don't want to. I think all three squadrons are very dangerous. Any ideas?
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(Do I really have -2 karma??? cries cries cries)
I dunno. He upped the option of a Necrons vs Eldar battle due them being arch enemies. I think I'll use my Craftworld fleet to emphasize this feud. :)
The bio-plasma Krake is most dangerous to you. The close combats can be avoided due range. So keep that 30cm reach and never in his prow (unless you want to ploy a trap with a bait vessel).
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Ya I would try to keep my distance also. Long range ordnance + working your way around their rear should work well for you. Check out their synaptic chart you may be able to take advantage of it.
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It has been a while, but I've played another battle. Not versus IN or Tyranids but versus Tau. And I did loose :(
His fleet:
Custodian 330
upgrade logic given by ld 10
ld Kor‟O Vash‟ya Y‟eldi Mesme 110
Protector - Tolku 185
Protector - Tolku 185
Hero - VASH’YA 180
Hero - Tolku 180
Emissary - IL‟PORRUI SA‟CEA 110
"+prow upgrade" 10
Warden 90
Castellan 100
On the field there was only one large astroid field.
The battle:
The tau player placed it's fleet as far as possible from the atroid field. He started with moving minimal speed and fired all his ordnance. I hid my fleet in the astroid field and behind it. Next round he did the same. My Void Stalker, a squadron of hemlocks and a squadron of nightshades turned to face the enemy fleet and stayed put in the astroid field. The eclipse and the other two escort squadrons moved alongside the table edge to the other side of the table. I wanted to get behind his fleet. This was a dangerous manoeuver because of the large ammount of ordnance on the table. The next round I only lost one nightshade there, but the escort squadrons at that end of the table were braced. Next round I decided to attack with my fleet focussing on his battle ship with the part of my fleet that was hidden in the astroid field (including a locked on Void Stalker) and with the other part of my fleet I engaged his hero's. I got only 3 hits on his custodian and 6 hits on one of the heroes. He fired back and I had to brace. The Void Stalker got some hits and my escort squadron lost some escorts. The following round I attacked his battleship with allmost my whole fleet (only one nightshade squadron attacked the crippeled hero and destroyed it), but every hit was braced. Next the tau rammed my eclipse and Void Stalker (crippeling it) and destroyed one nightshade squadron and one hemlock sqaudron. Next round I disengaged.
Victory points Eldar:
Destroyed Hero 180
Total 180
Victory points Tau.
Crippeled Void Stalker 127
Destroyed Hemlock squadron 150
Destoyed Nightshade squadron 150
Disengaging fleet 69
Total 496
I believe I have made two big mistakes. Firstly, I started too soon with my pincer move and therefore my opponent could anticipate on that. Secondly, after the first strike I should have moved on and regroup for my next attack run, but I stayed to fight and lost :(
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It was a good battle, mistakes where made on both sides of the table.
Ramming was nice, but actually the worst option to choose at that moment. But I never ever ever ever used ramming with my fleet. I should have destroyed his void stalker when I had the opportunity :(
Learning points...
- Eldar turret are annoying :(
- Bomberwaves can be powerfull if combined with the treat of torpedo's
- Don't underestimate my own Ion Cannons,
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Hi Ghuda & LucarD,
thanks for the reports.
Good fleets, both of you.
And yes Ghuda, attrition is nothing for Eldar. The attack plan is crucial. :)
LucarD, I guess the gained mobility of the Protector's helped a lot thwarting the Eldar plans. Right?
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Yes they did. Along with the Hero's they were my main targets, but he kept them out of my reach. Therefore I decided to attack the battleship. Not a good choice, two protectors together have a good dammage output. These guys slaughtered my escorts...
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I think you fell for a psychological ploy there. If you couldn't get at his Protectors because he held them out of reach to the rear and put his Custodian forward then you've lined up your attack poorly. What you'd be looking to do in that circumstance is hold back until you're able to strike at his Protectors. If he advances his Custodian such that it will be in range of your ships before you're able to get a move/strike at his Protectors then his fleet is sufficiently split for you to be able to dissect the Custodian without fear of his Protectors. Otherwise, don't let him dictate which ship you will target. Flying past the Custodian actually limits its usefulness. Without a target to its fore arc it will not be able to maximise its firepower. Combined with its relative deficiencies in speed and manoeuvrability flying past it while dropping out some CAP is the best strategy in most cases.
The Protectors have a formidable armament and manoeuvrability. Their only weak point is that they're fairly fragile for such an investment of points/firepower. So they should be your primary target after escorts. Emissaries are so fragile that you can leave them to incidental fire. Heroes are so tough compared to the rest of the Tau fleet that they should be ignored for the most part. Simply try to outmanoeuvre them using refused flank strategies. Ie, keep out of their front arc and don't give them a target on either side (note: remember to predict their next turn's movement for these purposes).
So the priority list looks like this: Escorts > Protectors > Emissaries > Custodians/Heroes. Assuming that all has gone to plan and you've eliminated his escorts, Protectors and Emissaries, if the battle continues then choosing which to target between the Custodian and Heroes is situational, depending upon position, how much weight of fire you can bring to bear and expectations of effect (crippled/destroyed thresholds, brace effects).
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Oke I might be a bit biased because I was the Tau player :)
I knew that my Protectors would be the prime target. So I placed them in corner as far away from the astroid field as possible. Left some 20-30 cm space between the protectors and the next ship Emissary, then my Custodian, Hero VashYa, Hero Tolku and then both my escort squadrons. The Hero's and the Custodian where slight turn towards the edge where also the protectors would be flying. I made sure that I could do at least 2 min moves and then turn without haveing make special command so that I wouldn't fly of the edge.
As expected the Eldar setup at the far side of the astroid field.
In round one TAU, I did a min move of all ships firing ordance as much as possible. Moving the ordance no more than needed and towards the astroid.
In round one ELDAR, he moved half his fleet behind and in the astroid field. The other half he move a long the table towards my starting edge. He made sure that I was out of reach of my ordance :(. So I split my Ordance in two half still heading towards astroid other half I turned as far as possible to meet the eldar.
Round two TAU. Reloaded all ordance ( needed one reroll ), did another min move for all capital ships expect for the emissary. He turned to meet the eldar early. My escorts did a "Come to a new heading" and moved their full speed behind the fleet using the extra turn to make sure that they ready enage any enemy coming into range.
Round two ELDAR. ( not completely sure anymore. ) but I think he moved a bit further down the far edge of the table and the rest of fleet only used there own ordance to shoot at some of my torpedo's. This time he made the first error. His fighter screen infront of the fleet along the edge is no match against the numerous torpedo's wave and bombers :). It was about 1 complete full load of ordance partially made up from round 1 and round 2 shooting. Combined with two bomber wave of 1F/3B and 2F/4B and two solo fighters. The bomber waves where first one to shoot. I splitted them up in 3x 1F/2B the solo bomber and fighters was used to kill his fighter screen.
I dared him to shoot at my bombers, but the my torpedo's scared him enough to not fire at them. So he did the only sane thing and BFI. My bomber waves killed two escorts :) Most of the torpedo's were targeted at his cruiser but I only managed to do 2 damages due to his nice BFI rolls ;( Should have been at least 4 hits.
Round three TAU. Another reload ordance ( another reroll last one ). The Heros and Custiodian turned a bit so that I could make the angle to hit to current position of the secondary fleet in his ordanceround with my ordance. Forcing him to make his move. Protectors turned a bit to join the custiodian but made sure it was still 10-15 cm behind him. The Castellean failed to reload so didn't do anything helpfull.
Round three ELDAR. The trap has sprung. His secondary fleet was limping in for the attack. His primary fleet was full health. Crippeld my braced Tolku. His escorts fires my Custiodian, doing some minor damage. Including bridge collapse :( Custodian got 3dmg and braced. The rest of the fleet nice and steady.
Round four TAU. Tolku tries to escape and fails. Complete madness on the table. I got some good hits from my protectors and from the braced VashYa. His Battleship was crippeld and braced :) Not much result regarding ordance. I managed to get his other cruisers to brace too....
Round four ELDAR. Where going for the big bucks, and tried to play though. They stayed and tried to kill the custodian, which somehow managed to succeed in his BFI (ld6 :( ) He only got 1extra dmg. still not crippeld :) The did manage to get two dmg on my Tolku, which turned in to a blazing hulk ;(
Round Five TAU: Two juicy targets infront of my protectors and my still standing unbraced full hit Hero. And I did the most stupid thing I could do, I tried to ram him :(:(:( Why why why?? I don't know maybe because I was tired or because of the heat of the battle. The ramming it self didn't do much good, only braced one his cruisers. And it put me out of position :(
My escorts & Emissary were able to kill and three escorts and brace two sqaudrons. I destroyed another with my braced custiodian.
Round Five Eldar: Cowardly moved away ( luckily for me )
Small note: If I didn't do the ramming thing. I would have had 20WB Locked on, 4Lance Locked with 15 cm of his battlecruiser. And 3x6 WB and 10Lances with 15cm which could all fire upon his crippeld battleship :( Something around 23 Dices for WB and 14 Lance rolls against armor 5+/ 2shlds
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Nicely done LuCarD!!
A few minor mistakes
My bomber waves killed two escorts
The waves killed only one escort.
His Battleship was crippeld and braced
At this moment he Void Stalker was only braced (3 hits, none braced :(). It was crippeled due to your ramming (again two hits and none braced :()
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@Sigoroth
Thanx for your comments! Setting up a good attack run with Eldar is quite difficult (I am still a beginner). What do you think I should do in my battle vs IN (fleet is posted somewhere in this thread) The same as with tau kill the escorts first and then destroy the dominators?
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@Sigoroth
Thanx for your comments! Setting up a good attack run with Eldar is quite difficult (I am still a beginner). What do you think I should do in my battle vs IN (fleet is posted somewhere in this thread) The same as with tau kill the escorts first and then destroy the dominators?
Couldn't find the fleet, but that could be due to laziness. I would recommend a last minute refused flank. Particularly useful if you have cover from his torps/NC on the approach. This would entail a head to head start, then as you pounce, move forward and to one side and then back in, like this; x^y (where x is your fleet, y is his fleet and ^ is the approach path), so that your fleet hits his side armour, preferably at close range. Even if you don't get ideal line on the closest ship, you should be in a better position for your torps. The main benefit of this sort of flank approach is that he won't get to break your line and fire both broadsides. This will leave him turning to hit you with some ships and only 1 broadside and few LOs. Don't be afraid to brace any return fire. Next turn you should fly at maximum to get range on him before turning to line up another attack run (reloading as you can). This will give you time to drop BFI and leave your opponent in a poor position. AC should be used to screen your ships and again, escorts should be the first target. Dauntlesses are another high priority ship, as are carriers.
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Hi,
I think it is this fleet:
Next battle vs Imperials
The imperial fleet:
50 Captain (Ld8)
345 Victory Class Battleship
260 Dominion Class Battlecruiser
220 Dictator Class Cruiser
195 Dominator Class Cruiser (+Turret)
195 Dominator Class Cruiser (+Turret)
210 6x Viper Class Destroyer
25 1 Reroll
Sigoroth his advice is sound allround.
Looking at above fleet we see a battleship with lances at long range, assisted by long range lances from the Dominion.
It also has 3 Nova Cannons. Plus 2 x 4 launch bays.
The Dominion, Dictator have both torps + ac.
The Vipers are fast 3torps strong zipper.They can cause real havoc.
For this fleet I would recommend the following target priority:
Vipers - Dominion - Dictator - Victory - Dominators
Just try to negate the strong Dominator broadsides.
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Your fleet has a Void stalker and an Eclipse right? That should more than give you superiority as your fighters are resilient.
The iffy one here is the cruisers Your ships are not going to be affected badly by bombers so if your maintaining ordnance superiority I would focus on Vipers (the best ships he has to help counter your maneuverability) - Dominion (ranged lances can be a pain even with your save but the main objective is to guarantee ordnance superiority for the game) - Dominators (these are the real pain for you seeing how you have to close, best left to the void stalker's ranged guns and massed bombers/torpedoes) - Victory (the only thing left with any teeth) - Dictator (garbage as soon as the Dominion falls)
When you make your flank attack you should have enough fire power to hit several ships at once, Aconite and Hemlocks on the Vipers, Void Stalker and Eclipse on the Dominion and Bombers/Nightshades on the Dominators, if you can line up the torps to hit both all the better, send a bomber wave to both then. At the best (for him) all of those ships should be braced next turn.
If you have the chance to cripple or destroy a ship after shooting tho you may want to focus your ordnance on that instead of hitting the Dominators, whatever is going to work best for you.
Don't let him get you in his front arc if you can avoid it after you have made your flank attack, move away form him while moving towards his rear arc the only thing he should be able to hit you with is his lances (you have a save against) and he should not be able to get a lock on.
The only time I wouldn't go for the Dictator last is if he attempts to disengage and fails, trying to get vps as its easier to kill than the Victory or if you lose fighter superiority as the Dictator really has crap for weapons without a partner (like most IN ships actually) and you should be able to avoid his prow torps entirely leaving only the ac which will almost guaranteed be used for fighters as their bombers would be wasted on your ships.
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To be honest, against that fleet, I'd say the target priority looks more like this: Vipers (kill!) -> Dominion -> Dictator -> Victory -> Dominators. The Vipers are highly mobile, dangerous, and would soak up too much of your own ordnance to manage. Kill these first. The Dominion's long range lances, AC and torps makes this a very dangerous ship to the Eldar. In destroying this ship you free up a good deal of AC to go on the offensive as well as reducing the incoming fire when you're regrouping. The Dictator provides the same threats as the Dominion apart from the long range lances. Destroying this ship removes the last threat of ordnance attacks and frees up the remainder of your ordnance for offensive duties (against the Dominators no doubt).
The choice between the Victory and the Dominators is pretty situational. Up close the Dominators are deadly, but if you're successful in refusing his flank to only allow a single broadside, and bracing freely when up close, then they're manageable. Their Nova Cannon will most likely never get a shot off after the initial approach as you'll likely be well out of arc or well inside minimum range. If you have cover on the initial approach then they'll likely do nothing all game. The Victory on the other hand could continue to annoy you at long range when you're trying to regroup and let your BFI's fall off. So this would make it a continual threat. Since your bombers would be going after the Dominators at this point (much more effective), direct fire could well be saved for the Victory. On the other hand, if you do manage to destroy/negate the Dominators then you'd be free to tailgate the Victory and forego the hit and run tactic. If I had success, or anticipated success, with bombers against one Dom then turning direct fire on the other Dom is a reasonable choice.
Edit: @Andrew - don't underestimate bombers against Eldar. They have a slight advantage in their turrets but fighter support negates a large chunk of that. Otherwise they're just expensive ships with lower resilience. This makes bombers more effective against Eldar than non-Eldar.
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In regards to his situation with bombers there should be no worries tho as his fighters should be able to handle any until he strikes at which point the Dominion should be out of the picture at least, really I doubt he will even get down to the dominators and victory tho as once that dominion and the vipers go down he really wont have anything that is maneuverable enough and in great enough quantities to defend his larger ships while they position themselves. Once they are gone you should be able to hang out in the rear arc indefinitely and bombard them to death with the VS, Torps, and bombers. If you keep a screen of abeam escorts between you and them any return fire will be very ineffective and they should never be able to lock on to you. Once your opponent realizes this he should disengage. Assuming you have good cover for the beginning of the game you should have minimal losses overall. Against the Dominators even crippling them will put them out of the game, 6wb just isn't going to do anything to you as we can safely assume that there will be blast markers between both of you and a holofield shift the best he will be able to manage is 2 dice (4 for both of them if they're both crippled) and thats against a closing capitol, something they should never be able to hit (void stalker can stand off a bit and the Eclipse is better off to also).
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Thanks for your masterclasses on how to tackle the imperial fleet!!
As I said earlier I still see myself as a beginner (although I play BFG for a year now), since I have not played more than 15 battles with Eldar (maybe 10 battles with MMS, mostly small battles). I've played some battles with my Chaos fleet and that is easier! Playing Eldar for me is difficult because I have so many options. I can almost strike wherever I like and I tend to make the wrong choices. You guys gave me a better idea of what is important in making my choices. Thnx!
Can we continue our masterclass on other (general) Eldar tactics?
I'm learning and I like it :D. Of course, I will keep you posted on my battles (and improvements). It will probably take a while before I will play the next battle in the tournament. We are all very busy at the moment (work, family, etc) :(.
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Again a victory!! This time vs the tyranids.
The tyranids:
11 Kraken with bio-plasma and Tenacity upgrade
10 Kraken with massive claws and Solar Vanes upgrade
11 Vanguard Drones with feeder tentacles and Extra Spore Cyst upgrade
The only phenomenon on the table was a small planet on the side of the tyranid player.
The tyranids started with AAF. The squadron in the middle (vanguard drones) straight ahead while the squadrons on the sides (kraken) started with a 45 degree angle towars the centre of the table. My fleet was positioned directly opposite of the vanguard squadron with in the centre my nightshade sq next to each other and on each side a capital ship. Next to each capital ship I placed a hemlock sq. In my first turn I did not move my nightshades and capital ships. They only fired ordnance (8 bombers and 6 two strength torpedo waves and 1 four strength torpedo wave) straight to the place where all the tyranid sq would come together. My hemlock sq moved to the sides of the table keeping out of range of the tyranids. In the second round all the tyranid sq tried to manoeuvre in such way that he could avoid the torpedoes and avoid being split up. The kraken with bio plasma tried to avoid the torpedoes by using AAF, but the squadron ended its move right in front of my torpedo waves. The torpedoes managed to destroy three kraken. In my second turn I reloaded everything en moved my Eclipse and Void Stalker away from the tyranids but within 45 cm of some kraken with bio plasma. The Void Stalker killed another kraken with its lances. The nightshades fired their torpedoes again and the hemlocks managed to get behind the enemy fleet and out of reach ot his vanguards and kraken. In this ordnance round the bombers attacked the kraken with bioplasma, killing 4 of them. In the next round the tyranids tried to disengage. The two undamaged squadrons were able to disngage, but the two kraken with bio plasma stayed and moved towards the planet. One of these was killed in the ordnance phase by my torpedoes. The other was killed in my third turn. My whole fleet could fire at it.
Victory points Eldar:
Destroyed Kraken with bio-plasma sq 605
Disengaged Kraken with massive claws sq 50
Disengaged Vanguard Drones with feeder tentacles sq 38,5
Total 693,5
Victory points tyranids: 0
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Ouch. He really should've disengaged in turn one. Feeder tentacles, massive claws and bio-plasma against the Eldar fleet? No AC cover? He never stood the slightest chance.
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Indeed, and you just played it out like you should. Well done in that regard!
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Thnx! I am beginning to understand how to play the Eldar! ;D
The poor guy... This is his fleet for the tournament and he lost every battle he played. The Tau (maybe LuCarD can report on how that battle went), Chaos and Eldar managed to destroy one squadron, while the IN destroyed two (a major victory!!). His last battle will be vs necrons maybe he has a chance to win in that battle but I doubt it.
Somewhere in Februari or March we will play the final round of our tournament with all three battles at the same time. I am looking forward to it!
Tau vs Chaos
Tyranids vs Necrons
Eldar vs IN
The IN (43 points) and the Tau (40 points) have the best chance win the tournament. Chaos (38 points), Eldar (36 points), Necron (34 points) have to get a major victory or a massacre to get a chance on winning the tournament and Tyranids (24 points) have no chance on winning at all.