Specialist Arms Forum

Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: Avatar of the Eldar on September 01, 2011, 05:49:10 PM

Title: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Avatar of the Eldar on September 01, 2011, 05:49:10 PM

Based on a directional 2K list from a previous thread (thanks, Haranin). 

How should such a force be deployed and brigaded?  What goes with what?

2 archers
2 bolt throwers
eagles
reavers
4x silver helms
7 spearelves
General with orb
two wizards, one mounted on a dragon with a sword

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: captPiett on September 01, 2011, 07:00:45 PM

Hey Avatar,
The eagles go by themselves - they pick off artillery and weakened units
The shooty stuff needs protection - so I would brigade 1-2 of the archers with 2 spearmen and a pair of bolt throwers with spearmen on either side or some such.
cav goes with cav, and for the most part, concentration works best. Since you have a lone reaver however making 5 units, some combo of 2 and 3 -unit brigades could work

Leadership should stay unattached to units but within 30 cm of something - that way they're functionally immortal ;) . I usually position my commanders slightly ahead of the brigades, so that the formations don't exit the 20cm distance on their first command.
Especially if you have an important brigade (i.e. 4 units of heavy cav), have your best command near that at the moment of truth. It's a little hard to be sneaky in WM anyway so telegraphing your moves isn't so much of a concern.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Lex on September 01, 2011, 07:04:56 PM

Remember that there is no rule against mixed arms brigades.....

Reavers with archers allow you to concentrate missilefire, and if a "soft target"  presents itself the reavers can still use their FULL charge distance to engage, while the archers more to the side and try to remove support.....

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Haranin on September 01, 2011, 08:53:36 PM

Brigades can be any combination of units between 2 and 4.

Some like combined arms units; I tend to find that they get in each other's way (ie making initiative charges difficult since the archers need an order to move out of the way first).

I like to organize brigades by role.

For example, in my example list-

Shooty brigade
2 archers
2 bolt throwers

Shooting has difficultly doing much, so combining into one formation makes it easier to concentrate your fire and maybe do something. Good brigade to field in the center, or to deny a flank. Few opponents will relish going head first into this brigade.

eagles

As others mentions, by themselves. Most efficient on a flank, using homeback and orders to charge flanks in ways that the enemy can't anticipate. Not a line unit, and will be attritted fast... but annoying and effective. Tough learning curve.

A few options; one is two brigades of two silver helms and use the reavers independantly; another is to add them to one unit of silver helms. Put these on the flanks. Just because you have a 4+ AS doesn't mean you need to charge frontally. Use your leadership 10 to get flanks
reavers
4x silver helms


7 spearelves

Either two brigades (3 and 4 units) or three brigades (2-2-3). Use these to back stop the shooty line and extend your battle line. Gives you a center line of ~3 brigades with one in reserve, and two units of flankers.

Use your general in the first turns to move your shooters to a good position, and get the infantry into a solid battleline. Maintaining your battleline without giving up flanks is important in the begininng. Getting out of position early will lose you the game.

Use the wizards to get your flankers moving up. As the game develops, move your general where the decisive point will be. Worry more about what you are going to do to the enemy then reacting to the enemy. Battles are won by forcing your opponent to get out of position responding to you.

When you get to a critical fight, throw in the wizard on a dragon. Never on a close fight- only when you know you can win, and there is little opertunity for the enemy to counterstrike. Once committed, its a priority target for the enemy.

the buff spell is excellent.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Haranin on September 01, 2011, 09:10:47 PM

For the recent games I played in NH with dwarves; I had a general, two runesmiths 10 warriors, 3 rangers and two cannon.

One brigade was two cannon and two rangers (rangers to protect the cannon from flyers, as game developed, the rangers moved up to engage where necessary). So this brigade shoots, and acts as a reserve force.

warriors divided up into brigades of 3-4-3 to provide the battleline. Extra ranger unit joins one of the 3 unit warrior brigades at the rear (so the enemy has to engage the 4+ AS warriors, but the rangers are around to chase down knights).

Against the hypothetical elf force, the elves should try to match frontage with the dwarf infantry with their infantry, send the knights out to the flanks for flank charges. Classic horns of the bull.

----

A classic GW brigade is shooters in a line with three units of infantry behind in column. I don't like that formation, as I feel it restricts your offensive options to much- initiative charging is golden as it eliminates command rolls. shooter + infantry combos require orders at negatives to do the same thing.

Side note- poke around the website for this group; they have counters you can use to get a feel for the different armies.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: David Wasilewski on September 02, 2011, 10:05:30 AM

Form a "gun line" in the centre with archers and bolt throwers supported by a second line of spears. Creep it forward with the general. Split your cavalry evenly between the flanks. Your shooting should force the enemy to attack your infantry gun line, then close the "trap" (horns of the buffalo, Zulu style) with your cavalry on the flanks.

Of course terrain will influence this but this is the "default" tactic (and quite a succesful one) for the HE army player in our group.

The other (riskier) option is to concentrate all the heavy cavalry together in one large brick and use the general to try and get 2 or 3 consecutive orders off in one go to absolutely smash one flank (and hopefully turn it) of the enemy. This usually ends in tears for one side or the other though!

Dave

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Haranin on September 02, 2011, 11:24:20 AM

and the big thing to remember is that there is no one way of playing or right way. You need to find what works for you.

Even MSU could work if your brought enough heros....

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: calmacil on September 02, 2011, 03:19:31 PM

I have a question about brigading infantry (high elf spearmen in AotE's case)

Is it best to have each unit in the brigade horizontal? (by that i mean side-to-side, the narrow 20mm edges touch) and then the other units in the brigade behind them

Or vertical? (one stand behind the next) then the other units in the brigade are the same

Or does it depend on the situation?



I've always deployed mine horizontal, but if you're hit with shooting attacks i was thinking only one unit would be driven back.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Dave on September 02, 2011, 03:29:27 PM

I think it depends on the situation. I wouldn't recommend a column when facing cannons. But against Cav I would stack deeper to keep my line shorter for support.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Lex on September 02, 2011, 03:55:42 PM

There is another good reason to go in column, it has to do with positioning your brigade 18cm out before giving a charge order, and works primarily for dwarfs and various elvenkin ......

 8)

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Dave on September 02, 2011, 03:57:39 PM

You're going to have to share that one.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Avatar of the Eldar on September 02, 2011, 04:32:55 PM

Quote from: Lex on September 02, 2011, 03:55:42 PM

There is another good reason to go in column, it has to do with positioning your brigade 18cm out before giving a charge order, and works primarily for dwarfs and various elvenkin ......

 8)

Lex, could you elaborate on that?

My logic, from only reading the rules, would be that If I have a brigade of 3 stands each, I'm better served by keeping them in columns than in 3-deep lines so that units are not falling back through friendly stands. 

I was also assuming that a brigade might be center regiment in line and the two flanking brigades in column or 2-stand width line.

This is one of the features of the game I find attractive - how do you compose and arrange your brigades.

Maybe someone could post a thread "Brigade Management 101"

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: calmacil on September 02, 2011, 06:55:58 PM

Is that something to do with trollslayers Lex?

Quote from: Dave on September 02, 2011, 03:29:27 PM

I think it depends on the situation. I wouldn't recommend a column when facing cannons. But against Cav I would stack deeper to keep my line shorter for support.

Just to clarify, because we're all using different ways to describe this  ;D

Brigade with the units arranged in a column   
(http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr279/waylander2/WMbrigades1.jpg)


Brigade with the units arranged in a line
(http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr279/waylander2/WMbrigades.jpg)   


I think i'm doing the same as you Dave. Against enemy cavalry i arrange infantry brigades into into a line (not a column)

However, my reasoning for doing this is from when i first started playing warmaster, and we weren't using warmaster ancient rules. So a cavalry charge kept going on and on. If the infantry brigade was in a column he's likely to contact all 3 units and kill them, and then advance into another brigade. I went for a line to prevent this from happening.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Dave on September 02, 2011, 08:00:28 PM

Yep, I'd go the second way when facing Cav. Against cannons though I'd only stack two deep at the max, and then only if they're out of LoS.

I've yet to use anything in column yet, as you're describing. I'm guessing there's a few tricks you can pull with that though given everyone has LoS for a charge.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Lex on September 03, 2011, 11:28:43 AM

Quote from: Dave on September 02, 2011, 03:57:39 PM

You're going to have to share that one.

OK, we will make it a little excersize....

take 3 units of (shooty) infantry in line
take3 units of HTH infantry, and line then up in column  (iow) make sure they are side by side in column

place the units between 18 and 20 cm appart

assume that you make a succesful charge order for the HTH infantry

now describe your movens and reasoning.....

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: David Wasilewski on September 03, 2011, 04:23:48 PM

There is a rule which states you should (must) maximise your frontage i.e. every stand in the unit must try and make contact if they have the movement to make it. The way round this, if you wish to keep your infantry in column (which is better for assaulting the enemy) is to charge the enemy from exactly 18cm, 1mm up to 20 cm away.

If you charge from 18cm or less distance from the enemy your first infantry unit has to spread out into line, potentially blocking the remaining units from getting stuck in.

If you have 4 units in a brigade of columns assaulting an enemy line you will be able to keep the assault up for longer as you have more stands that can be removed as casualties and your enemy will not be able to direct quite as many attacks all onto the same unit, meaning you can spread the damage taken a little better.

I agree this is "gaming it" but its a well established tactic in our group. It annoys some of us so we are currently discussing using a house rule that states you no longer have to maximise contact when charging with infantry in a column.

Dave

(I forgot to add, infantry stands are 2 cm deep hence the 18cm, 1mm - the second stand behind the first stand that leads the column will not be able to contact the enemy line and so can stay in column. If it could contact then it would have to go into line)

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Avatar of the Eldar on September 03, 2011, 05:57:18 PM

Dave,

I don't see this as "gaming it" - and I'm pretty intolerant of those sorts of shenanigans in WFB.

Brigade-of-columns seems like the reasonable way to go for all-HTH brigades for the reasons you gave.  Why would it be more "right" to deploy them all in line?  The fall back rules will only risk jacking up the regiments behind the first. 

Now if the fall back rules allowed the front rank to filter through the supporting ranks, with a leadership role to avoid confusion in the ranks standing fast, that would mimic ancient army tactics. 

On that note, how does that work in Warmaster Ancients? Because Roman Republic armies were known to deploy in lines according to class and seniority (hastati, principe, triarii) and when the first rank was used up, the next rank pushed on through into the fight.  They weren't displaced.

Mixed order (Napoleonic ordre mixte) seems like it would be good for shooting/HTH brigades.  i.e. Archer regiment deployed in line of three companies with spears in column on either end.  Have the archers hang back when the spears charge in or let the archers come in last positioned to support but not take direct attacks.  Or just hang back and shoot at other unengaged units.

Apololgies for being Mr. Smartypants with historical references and the conjecture when I've never played a game of WM.  ;D

How does it really work on the table top?

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: David Wasilewski on September 03, 2011, 06:11:23 PM

I agree that the line v column debate entirely depends on what you're trying to achieve. Columns better for attacking or for defence in depth. Lines maximise shooting power or if you're facing enemy cavalry in the open, it is a way of ensuring you don't lose more than 2 units. If you defend against cavalry in column (a kind of napoleonic divisional masse I suppose) you usually end up losing the lot i.e. it doesn't work. You will weaken the enemy and pull him right in to your half of the table though as he advances and advances...     I find a second or third line small reserve unit 'fire brigade' of chariots or lurking knights units is handy. The mistake some novice warmaster players do is to throw all their cavalry out on the front line.

A good Warmaster anti cavalry tactic is to throw 2 sacrificial lines out front and about 20 cm behind and slightly on the flanks, facing inwards at an oblique put some more infantry so you can attack the front and sides (and maybe even the rears if you get close enough!) of the committed enemy cavalry that ahs just smashed your front line and followed up into the bear trap. Of course it doesn't work if he rolls very high on his post combat 3d6 movement exploitation roll.

I have a huge Adler Napoleonic (large 6mm) collection and so am very familiar with the code you're using! :)

Dave

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Cobalt on September 06, 2011, 07:17:42 AM

I understand what you mean by "gaming". Because of the rules, you can pull this when your soldiers are exactly at 18 cm from the enemy. Why shouldn't you be able to do the same at 16, 14 , 2 cm? I would have a houserule alowing this, certainly.

(something like a unit charging with initiative must maximize frontage but a unit charging unpon order can maintain formation)

As for the archers in front, (or gobbos), I sure wish they could let the tough guys charge and stay behind by initiative.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Dave on September 06, 2011, 01:47:41 PM

OK, so I get what Dave is saying. But how does this tie into what Lex is alluding to? If I make the charge with the HtH brigade in column where does the brigade of missile troops come? Order them around the flank and shoot away support?

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Lex on September 06, 2011, 09:53:32 PM

Quote from: Dave on September 06, 2011, 01:47:41 PM

OK, so I get what Dave is saying. But how does this tie into what Lex is alluding to? If I make the charge with the HtH brigade in column where does the brigade of missile troops come? Order them around the flank and shoot away support?

Yup... IF you order a mixed brigade, peel ANY units you dont want involved off to " a side "  and just get stuck in with the units you want to fight with!

DO remember however that IF you do this and want to further order the brigadepart peeled off, it will be the fist thing youneed to do afterwards !

Also, if you charge from column at 18cm, remember to make sure your MIDDLE unit can take the shooting and move that unit first !!!

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: captPiett on September 06, 2011, 10:59:01 PM

Assuming the archers in front with the HtH units in back, does that get around the requirement to see the enemy before charging then?Or is that not a concern because LOS is determined unit by unit in a brigade charge situation.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Dave on September 07, 2011, 03:50:53 AM

If only one unit has LoS and chooses to charge it would be considered to happen before the other moves, thus they would be able to charge or move of their own accord. But if the first unit didn't charge everything would be considered to happen at the same time so the others wouldn't be able to charge. That's how I interpret it anyway.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Lex on September 07, 2011, 08:10:28 AM

OK... nastyness

If a brigae of units gets an order then you move EACH UNIT ON ITS OWN. and the starting position/condition of every singular unit in the brigade at the moment it STARTS it move will determin what THAT unit will be able to do.

Remember there is NO CHARGE order in Warmaster !!

so if we have. eg. a brigade headed by archers in line, followed by 3 HtH units in column next to each other, and they receive a succesfull order then the archers move of to the side, this allows all 3 units a view of opponent then you pick A unit to move next, and it moves, makes contact and "maximises frontage" this COULD block LOS for more charging......

In that case, remember that ALL the units that NOT make contact with enemy MUST remain in contact with each other !!!! (but not in same formatio)

I will put the following in caps, as it is a major important issue

FOR SPEEDING UP PLAY WE OFTEN MOVE MULTIPLE UNITS AT TE SAME TIME; THIS IS NOT "WRONG"
(as long as all the rules about max moving distances etc are played)
BUT REMEMBER THAT THE RULES MECHANISM WORKS WITH INDIVIDUAL STANDS MOVING!
and describes various condictions where there will be a significant difference in gameplay if this is ignored.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Dave on September 07, 2011, 01:48:24 PM

So we've been playing it wrong the whole time. :P This will make for a few less orders being issued.

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Lex on September 07, 2011, 02:38:00 PM

well that is why we are here for !

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: captPiett on September 07, 2011, 04:56:18 PM

Quote from: Lex on September 07, 2011, 08:10:28 AM

OK... nastyness

Was that being nasty? I didn't take it that way  :)
Thanks for the clarification Lex

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Lex on September 07, 2011, 05:23:26 PM

nastyness was in reference to the fact that this is a VERY common oversight for a lot of players......  (not just fresh recruits!)

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: wmchaos2000 on September 27, 2011, 03:59:07 PM

In fact, the nastyness was thougher than that.
As a seasoned player, that plays the way Lex described it, I didnt realise the mistakes (in relation to he rules) in the first part of the discussion, until I read Lex:s post.  :o
Shame on me. Thanks Lex. :D

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Avatar of the Eldar on September 27, 2011, 09:50:23 PM

Okay, let me test my understanding of what Lex posted.

Given his example of brigade in line, the archers break out of the brigade to the side allowing the next regiment of hth to advance into combat where it must maximize frontage? 

Question:

Can that first regiment stay in column allowing the regiments behind it to joint the attack in columns abreast and each 3 stands deep?

In other words, the first regiment does not need to "maximize" by spreading its stands/companies out into line, does it?

Title: Re: Brigade combinations?
Post by: Lex on October 08, 2011, 10:43:11 PM

Was on a short vacation, so I am catching up reading (and answering)

If you have a unit in line then you would use the following procedure

1) determine the closest stands
2) move the closest stand into contact based on the CENTER point of both stands, and following ALL movement (restriction) rules
3) choose the next stand to move and place it in contact with the first stand moved, again following ALL movement (restriction rules
3a) if a stand can be placed into contact with the original stand AND in frontal contact with A (notice emphasis !!) enemy stand it must do so
3aa) if 3a) is not possible, but C2C is an option then that is acceptable !!
3aaa) if a stand can NOT be placed into enemy contact (on account of movement (restriction) rules) it must still be placed into contact with the original moving stand and MAY end up being in support (ASSUMING it has the movement to make that position !! otherwise it must be placed at the least with a POINT of contact
4) (assuming there is a 3th stand), follow the 3) steps, BUT with the important distinction that it must remain in contact with either one of the previously placed stands !!

And remember that if your guys "can make the distance" they will ALWAYS make as MUCH frontal contact as possible, even potentialy pulling in additional enemy units !!   (which in essence is the "maximize frontage" rule)

On a related issue......
When your guys are getting SHOT at on the charge...... you will always determine the effect of shooting BEFORE going into 2) above !!