Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] GothiComp => GothiComp Archive => Topic started by: horizon on September 07, 2011, 08:16:33 AM
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GothiComp evaluation.
Well lets do this when things are still fresh. Some ideas/opinions on next years GothiComp. Your feedback is appreciated and your ideas valued.
Some points, tweaked :
- Anonymous: I added a poll
- Extra categories: From feedback I will create an extra category: 1-Hit Category, including all vessels and structures with 1 hit point. Entries may consist of 1 to 6 models.
- prizes: yes or no?
Feel free to discuss all and everything regarding the Battlefleet Gothic Painting Competition.
The following points will almost 100% guaranteed happen next year:
- Picture format: upping it to 1024 x 768.
- Voting period of seven days (Tiebreaker depens on entries)
- Votes shall be revealed after voting period
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- Shall we keep the idea of revealing votes after the deadline has passed? I've received mixed feedback on it.
Voting spread would be OK. I think that people that WANT to reveal what the voted for (and why) can do so in the forums.
- Allowing more pictures of an entry in a thread?
Considering forum bandwithI might object 8) 8)
I know this will be impossible to pull off, but idealy all sybmission should have a similar portfolio presented. Even better would be to set a standard for the way the pictures should be taken. That way the fotografy factor can be ruled out (more)
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1. Keep the anonymity
2. Categories: fleet, capital ships, escorts, open (celestial or terrain pieces, orbitals or ground installations, and possibly non bfg models)
3. One image per entry
4. Hide results till voting done
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GothiComp evaluation.
- Next year I am intending to drop the anonymous part. So the gallery will mention the painter (eg 2E. Rogue Trader Cruiser - Horizon). Submissions will still go through e-mail at taccompetitions
Why not ?
- Shall we keep the idea of revealing votes after the deadline has passed? I've received mixed feedback on it.
Yep, more suspense, high blood pressure, that's perfect.
- Voting period, admitted 14 days is too long. So I want to shorten it to 7 days. That seems a fair number of days.
Yes, end of submittions 31 of july-> results 4 september it's too long.
7 days for the first vote and 7 for the grand final, 3 days for tiebreaker between.
- Tiebreaker worked good and I'll keep it; however this all depends on number of entries.
We will work on it ;)
- Extra categories: I have received requests/ideas on the following category ideas: Open category, seperate Escort category, Defences category, Picture from a Battle Report category. Viable? Needed? More? Other? More categories means more prizes needed/or the badge of honour.
In one hand it would be nice but as you said: more categories = more prizes. And it's not possible to give prizes for a category and not for another.
If finaly your up to build other category:
escorts: upt to 3 escorts ship on the same picture as usual
decors: planets, asteroids, wreck, station, ...
space scene: model in action, can be a fight like a infidel raider firing at a imperial cuiser, space station repairing damaged vessels or launching ordonance or simply a mining vessel drilling an asteroïd.
Put movement on your model.
- Picture format: upping it to 1024 x 768.
A big yes.
- Allowing more pictures of an entry in a thread?
Depend of you, that will give you more work.
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I'd prefer to keep the entries anonymous, at least for the voting period. Possibly the scientist in me coming out, but names can bias votes. Similarly votes should be revealed after the deadline for the same reason. Upping the picture size sounds good to me. This gives viewers better detail by which to judge and allows the competitor to put multiple angles into each picture without losing too much detail.
I didn't mind the initial voting period, just the tiebreaker period (after all, we'd all looked at the ships for quite a while by that stage) but if you want to shorten it then perhaps a 10 day period would be better.
An open category sounds good, as well as a "1 hit" category for escorts and small defences (large defences like space stations could go in the open category). As for prizes I'd say the Open category should have a decent prize, but the 1-hit category could just get a blister of escorts or something.
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Thanks so far.
On anonymous -> if people still insist and prefer that I really have to look friendly at some people/groups. Because I know some posted their ships previous to the competition online; in a forum or on a blog.
What if a friend of you is painting and you meet him, should he hide his ship when you visit?
I would prefer it but can I/we demand it from everyone.
Recognizing paint styles is iffy. People grow/develop/change.
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Why would it be a problem to post your entry on your blogs or other forums?
Sure the anonymity isn't perfect but when it comes to voting time the poll should remain generic ( rather than anonymous if you wish)
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Good idea...
- Next year I am intending to drop the anonymous part. So the gallery will mention the painter (eg 2E. Rogue Trader Cruiser - Horizon). Submissions will still go through e-mail at taccompetitions.
As I have said in the past, I have mixed feelings on anonymous submissions. There are plus points and negatives for it.
- Shall we keep the idea of revealing votes after the deadline has passed? I've received mixed feedback on it.
I think that voting results should be kept hidden until after the deadline, as it avoids the situation of two entries being close and people drumming up support and votes. It also makes it easier to discuss entries if no-one knows who is winning the votes, if you go down that route.
- Voting period, admitted 14 days is too long. So I want to shorten it to 7 days. That seems a fair number of days.
That sounds fine. I would be careful about making it any shorter than that, and I might go for a 10 day window for voting, but if someone hasnt voted in the first 7 days then they are not likely to vote in the next 7.
- Tiebreaker worked good and I'll keep it; however this all depends on number of entries.
Agreed.
- Extra categories: I have received requests/ideas on the following category ideas: Open category, seperate Escort category, Defences category, Picture from a Battle Report category. Viable? Needed? More? Other? More categories means more prizes needed/or the badge of honour.
I like the idea of an Escort category. Perhaps an open/defences category, and I would combine them into a single category. I would avoid a 'battle report picture' category, as its difficult to judge if a picture/report has been 'staged' for a submission, and I dont see how this would make a big change. If the intention is for a 'battle scene' picture then that is different, but I think that this kind of picture would detract from the actual painting aspect of the competition.
As stated, any categories would need prizes... potentially. However, we dont necessarily need every category to have a physical prize, and discussions about a 'hall of fame' gallery as a prize, or something else could be interesting.
- Picture format: upping it to 1024 x 768.
- Allowing more pictures of an entry in a thread?
I am OK increasing the picture size potentially. I would hesitate before allowing multiple pictures. With a larger maximum picture size, composite pictures would work better I think, as everyone would be allowed a single picture, and they could split this into multiple smaller pictures if they wanted within the standard 1024x768 frame, at a sacrifice of more detail. It would give adaptability of the picture and control to the submission, but still keep things even.
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Okay then, here are my thoughts...
• Next year I am intending to drop the anonymous part. So the gallery will mention the painter (eg 2E. Rogue Trader Cruiser - Horizon). Submissions will still go through e-mail at taccompetitions.
To be honest, I never got the anonymous part. I always like to know who the creator/artist is... just out of curiosity. In fact I'd hate to be not credited for my work throughout the whole process. Now before you say "... but all is revealed once it's over", sure, but who's going back through all the entries to look once it's over? I probably won't, because I don't have the time.
• Shall we keep the idea of revealing votes after the deadline has passed? I've received mixed feedback on it.
Same thing, I don't quite get why votes should be hidden. Just make it so you can't see the votes until you have voted yourself. After that it doesn't really matter. More on the voting system later, though.
• Voting period, admitted 14 days is too long. So I want to shorten it to 7 days. That seems a fair number of days.
Sounds good.
• Extra categories: I have received requests/ideas on the following category ideas: Open category, seperate Escort category, Defences category, Picture from a Battle Report category. Viable? Needed? More? Other? More categories means more prizes needed/or the badge of honour.
I'd suggest at least one more category for anything that isn't a ship or a fleet.
Personally I would also like to see an artwork category, but I realise it's been tried before.... and failed :-\
• Picture format: upping it to 1024 x 768.
Great idea, I'm all for it. I always found the pictures a bit small to make an informed decision.
• Allowing more pictures of an entry in a thread?
I'd keep it at one picture per entry. At the increased size, there'd be plenty of room to showcase the whole model, plus details and/or different angles.
Now, I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes when I say this, but my biggest gripe with Gothicomp has always been the voting system. I really dislike the Heats concept.
I'm a very emotional voter... I either like an entry, or I don't... no matter how well executed the paint job might be.
This year I faced a few dilemmas: Some heats had more than one entry that I wanted to vote for, whereas others had none. I forced myself to vote for one ship in each heat anyway, but I don't think it's ideal.
Thus, I would like to see the following:
Qualifying Round - Multivote Poll for each category... you can vote for as many entries as you like.
Finals Round - Single Vote Poll for each category... you can vote for your favourite finalist.
Conceptart.org does it very well (although I'm not sure if you can see the voting when you're not logged in:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227822 (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227822)
I also find having the pictures and voting facilities on different sites a bit of a hassle, but that's just me. Again, you could look to CA.org for inspiration.
Hope this helps :)
Big thanks to Roy and everyone else who is involved in keeping this awesome event going!
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- Next year I am intending to drop the anonymous part. So the gallery will mention the painter (eg 2E. Rogue Trader Cruiser - Horizon). Submissions will still go through e-mail at taccompetitions
- Shall we keep the idea of revealing votes after the deadline has passed? I've received mixed feedback on it.
- Voting period, admitted 14 days is too long. So I want to shorten it to 7 days. That seems a fair number of days.
- Tiebreaker worked good and I'll keep it; however this all depends on number of entries.
- Extra categories: I have received requests/ideas on the following category ideas: Open category, seperate Escort category, Defences category, Picture from a Battle Report category. Viable? Needed? More? Other? More categories means more prizes needed/or the badge of honour.
- Picture format: upping it to 1024 x 768.
- Allowing more pictures of an entry in a thread?
1. Keep the anonymity (besides the eventual winners). Having it this way gives those of the... not so talented level, to not be afraid of entering anyway (like me, lol. Though I didn't enter it this year).
2. Definately reveal the results after each heat has ended!
3. 7 days is great!
4. Tiebreaker is good idea.
5. The only extra category option I think would be good is an escort squadron (limited to 5 vessels). They really have no chance against the cruisers/BB that enter in the general competition. Not to mention, this gives some of us extra incentive to make sure they look better in general ;)
6. I'm no tech wiz so I have no comment on the matter.
7. I would say each player may submit two photos. Any more than that and your webmaster may not like you, lol.
-Zhukov
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Now, I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes when I say this, but my biggest gripe with Gothicomp has always been the voting system. I really dislike the Heats concept.
I'm a very emotional voter... I either like an entry, or I don't... no matter how well executed the paint job might be.
This year I faced a few dilemmas: Some heats had more than one entry that I wanted to vote for, whereas others had none. I forced myself to vote for one ship in each heat anyway, but I don't think it's ideal.
Thus, I would like to see the following:
Qualifying Round - Multivote Poll for each category... you can vote for as many entries as you like.
Finals Round - Single Vote Poll for each category... you can vote for your favourite finalist.
Conceptart.org does it very well (although I'm not sure if you can see the voting when you're not logged in:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227822 (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227822)
I also find having the pictures and voting facilities on different sites a bit of a hassle, but that's just me. Again, you could look to CA.org for inspiration.
The heat system is a necessity as the polls used to vote have a maximum number of options. If we get more submissions that we are allowed options in a poll, we need to split the submissions into groups to allow voting.
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- Next year I am intending to drop the anonymous part. So the gallery will mention the painter (eg 2E. Rogue Trader Cruiser - Horizon). Submissions will still go through e-mail at taccompetitions
- Shall we keep the idea of revealing votes after the deadline has passed? I've received mixed feedback on it.
- Voting period, admitted 14 days is too long. So I want to shorten it to 7 days. That seems a fair number of days.
- Tiebreaker worked good and I'll keep it; however this all depends on number of entries.
- Extra categories: I have received requests/ideas on the following category ideas: Open category, seperate Escort category, Defences category, Picture from a Battle Report category. Viable? Needed? More? Other? More categories means more prizes needed/or the badge of honour.
- Picture format: upping it to 1024 x 768.
- Allowing more pictures of an entry in a thread?
1. I really don't get the point of anonymous entries, are the tensions in this "small" community really so high that it is necessary to avoid biased voting?. For the competition alone it isn't really relevant, but basically anonymous entries mean that I can not submit an entry that belongs to an existing fleet that I have already posted somewhere....
2. I think hidden results is a good thing, at least make it only visible to someone who has already voted, but keeping it hidden till the end is better for suspense I think: if it is clear after ~3 days that there is a single favourite among the audience I don't really have to wait for the results to know who will win.
3. Shorter voting period: I think 7 days is long enough.
4. Tie breaker: keep it!
5. Categories: I think too many categories would quickly increase the administration work, so while I agree that currently escorts are at a disadvantage against cruisers I'm not convinced they need their own category. On the other hand an open category for "terrain", space stations, docks, battle-scenes, etc. would be awesome.
Price support: for me that isn't really necessary.
6&7. I'm all for larger pictures, but I'm not sure about multiple pictures/angles. There are just to many ways to do it and I don't yet have an opinion about what is better or worse.
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Just a note on anonymity; just because the entries have no names on them it does not mean that pictures can't be posted elsewhere on the web with or without a name. It's just so that those that click on the link to take them to the images of the heat aren't biased by nametags. Sure, you can acquire bias elsewhere if you search for it, or you might recognise a certain painter's style, but there's no reason to deliberately input bias simply because it's impossible to stamp out.
As for revealing voting, I don't think that it should be revealed till after the heat is over, not even to those that have voted. Firstly, those that have voted might spill the ongoing results to those who have not, and so influence voting. Secondly, it would become boring if the results were clear long before the heat ended. Much better to just run it like this year.
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The heat system is a necessity as the polls used to vote have a maximum number of options. If we get more submissions that we are allowed options in a poll, we need to split the submissions into groups to allow voting.
Fair enough.
Could you make them multi-vote polls, though? At least for the first round?
Seeing how there aren't that many voters, you'd get a much bigger spread of votes that way... which would give more people a fighting chance to make to make the finals.
Just a thought.
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• I prefer anonymity, and thought it worked well this year.
• I like the votes being revealed once voting is done.
• 7 days works.
• Tiebreaker was fine.
• The only category I'd add is Escorts. They seemed to have trouble against capital ships. If there is an Open category I think it'd be too varied to make a competition of it - maybe allow an open gallery, no votes, no prizes, just a way to show off.
• Slightly higher resolution sounds good. 800x600 is so 10 years ago.
• In a competition I prefer just having one picture to look at. I think there should be restrictions on pictures-in-picture too, so that there's still one main picture with little insets around it, not just four 512x384 shots stitched together.
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I dont know about multiple pics on the main thread but I do think it would be nice to see one large "money" shot on the thread. Then maybe have a link to a file sharing site where they can show the details for those of us that would like to see them. I deffinatly do not like the multiple pics in one thing that you guys have been doing tho, it almost feels like a tease, I know theres something there they want me to see... now if only I could ;D .
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Next year I am intending to drop the anonymous part. So the gallery will mention the painter (eg 2E. Rogue Trader Cruiser - Horizon). Submissions will still go through e-mail at taccompetitions - I'm not fussed either way, as I'm sure almost everyone wouldn't let the artists name sway their vote.
Shall we keep the idea of revealing votes after the deadline has passed? I've received mixed feedback on it. - I think its best to hide the total votes until the round is over, then let people know. It stops people voting for who they can see is already winning.
Voting period, admitted 14 days is too long. So I want to shorten it to 7 days. That seems a fair number of days. - I'd say 14 days isn't too long. Anything over that is too much.
Tiebreaker worked good and I'll keep it; however this all depends on number of entries. I liked this (because my entry got into it).
Extra categories: I have received requests/ideas on the following category ideas: Open category, seperate Escort category, Defences category, Picture from a Battle Report category. Viable? Needed? More? Other? More categories means more prizes needed/or the badge of honour. - Escorts probably need their own category as they seem to struggle when put up against bigger ships. Defences can just be entered as either escorts or cruisers (depending upon their size). I wouldn't have pictures from a battle report, as they don't really contain any artistic talent beyond the painted models. You could have an open category that allowed celestial phenomena or dioramas.
Picture format: upping it to 1024 x 768. - I don't see why not.
Allowing more pictures of an entry in a thread? - I find it can take long enough just to download and view the one picture per entry. This will take even longer if you up the file size or add more categories. Allow montages perhaps, but not more pictures.
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Hi,
I doubt I'll have anything to add that hasn't been said yet. But....
I think the most important decision to make is what is the main purpose of gothicomp? Is it mainly for fun, or is it mainly a competition? If its mainly a competition, then to make it the most fair, you should have anonymous entries, and ban all blogs, pictures, threads etc.. of the submission on all sites. This is of course impossible to do. Thankfully, for me gothicomp has been mainly a fun way of getting me to paint, and sharing my work with the BFG community. So, include the artist's name! Encourage discussion, and posting of entries in other forums! Since its going to happen (and did in every gothicomp I've seen to date), you may as well encourage everyone to do so.
If someone doesn't want to post their name for the entry (a good point zhukov makes), the artist could just leave this field blank, allowing for an anonymous entry.
Also, if artists names are attached to entries, I think people are less likely to trash it publicly.
Otherwise
- keep votes hidden until deadline! Adds to the suspense
- 7 days voting period!
- I hate the tiebreaker. I think it just prolongs the competition and should have little impact on the final result. But clearly I'm in the minority.
- Extra categories: The problem with these IMO is that there might not be enough entries to make a reasonable competition. Hopefully I'll be wrong.
- Yes increase the picture size limit!!
- Multiple pictures. With the new size limit, this should be unnecessary. A composite picture should be fine. And, as said above, encourage participants to show off their work in blogs etc...
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On voting why not set up a ranking system where each voter ranks the entrants from highest to lowest with each rank earning that entrant that many points? For example.with 5 entrants if 10 people rank them from 1 (least liked) to 5(most liked) the entrants would have a possible 10-50 points with 11 voters it would be 11-55 points
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Hey,
I'll update the first post thanks to all your feedback.
Andrew,
that would make it an unwieldy polling system, I'd even doubt it is possible. Plus it is not funny to see that your entry has gotten '1' from everyone. Better to leave that in the dark. The winner gets his credits, the others know that they'll have to work harder. Not needed to throw salt in the fresh wounds. ;)
So far the best argument against anonymous entries has come from Schwager. As an artist you want your name attached. And lets see if we are mature enough, right?
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My intention for that was to address the issue that schwager brought up about having multiple entrants you would like to vote for. I didn't consider that the forum may not be setup to handle that style of vote.
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Originally I thought as Andrew suggested, that voters rank the top 3, or 5, etc.
My entry was in the same heat as the ultimate winner, but then I realized that the one winner would have risen to the top regardless of the heat it is in
So the ranking would not have produced a different winner
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Everything anonymous, ask people to not show models anywhere to anyone
I want to be sure i cleary understand: that mean we can't post on a forum pictures of the model(s) we are preparing for the competition ?, like work in progress or/and the final picture ?
Nothing anonymous, names included in gallery, people may show it wherever they want
As an artist you want your name attached. And lets see if we are mature enough, right?
I agree.
Mixed: people may decide if they want to see their name in the gallery or not
No, every entries at the same level.
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I would have it anonymous for the voting, but not attempt to restrict people from posting it elsewhere. That way there's no onerous restrictions placed upon the entrants and no automatic biasing. Only those that decide to search out pictures elsewhere or happen to have seen the ships before will have any potential bias. Once the competition is over, amend the names to the entrants ships.
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For me Gothicomp is rather a small fun competition to show (and get motivated to paint) bfg models. So i would rather keep it open, fun, not too serious.
Am i motivated to paint new models if i cant even show them before the next gothicomp?
Shoulnt gothicomp be a motivation to paint more and more minitures and show them to the community (so we all have more fleets and ships to look at and talk about) actively?
To the other questions only a quick reply for now:
Escort category totally makes sense for me. Either dont make a prize for the new category or split up the pizes more depending on how many you could collect that year. I think its cool to win something but its not necessary to be happy to win ;-)
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I would have it anonymous for the voting, but not attempt to restrict people from posting it elsewhere. That way there's no onerous restrictions placed upon the entrants and no automatic biasing. Only those that decide to search out pictures elsewhere or happen to have seen the ships before will have any potential bias. Once the competition is over, amend the names to the entrants ships.
I am in absolute agreement on this. In terms of revealing the names, I would say that should be a choice by the artist, not an automatic thing.
-Zhukov
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If someone wants to attach their name to it I don't see why this would be a problem. If I like or don't like something is not going to be changed by the name on it. Put pepsi in a coke can and its still going to taste like poo.
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If someone wants to attach their name to it I don't see why this would be a problem. If I like or don't like something is not going to be changed by the name on it. Put pepsi in a coke can and its still going to taste like poo.
Exactly. The psychological effect of drinking from a Coke can will cause even Pepsi to taste bad. You prove my point. Anyway, you can't say that you won't be influenced by the names. In fact, I can say with almost certainty that having names attached will influence the results. There has been a good deal of research into subliminal effects, which is why scientists strive to conduct double blind studies.
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While sig clearly did not understand my example I would say that the names should be left off, if only because some feel that they would not be able to make an accurate decision if they have a name to attach to the photo.
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While sig clearly did not understand my example I would say that the names should be left off, if only because some feel that they would not be able to make an accurate decision if they have a name to attach to the photo.
Of course I understood your example! You're saying that dressing up Pepsi as Coke makes Pepsi taste bad. There can be no other sensible interpretation of what you said. 8)
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While sig clearly did not understand my example I would say that the names should be left off, if only because some feel that they would not be able to make an accurate decision if they have a name to attach to the photo.
Of course I understood your example! You're saying that dressing up Pepsi as Coke makes Pepsi taste bad. There can be no other sensible interpretation of what you said. 8)
Oh thank you for clarifying that. Pepsi should stop dressing up pepsi as coke, it might not taste so bad then. ::)
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Can we leave aside the cola wars discussion and keep this on track? (Cola wars.... new wargame idea!) Thanks.
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Hi all !
My point regarding GC.
As I already said to Horizon I don't see the interest of having anonymous entries. My votings don't depend on the name of the painter, and anyway some of us have a style, a fleet or a color scheme that is quite easy to identify. On the contrary as a painter, I would like to have my name attached to my painting so that if maybe one person is interested to see what else I paint, he can find it.
Asking people not to show their minis before GC would - I think - have a negative impact on the french side. The reason is that we try to motivate each other by painting "together" (we show our WIP on our board) and commenting others work.
For me, GC is a good reason to paint the ship I have on my desk and would maybe have painted months later without the competition's deadline. If I or my friends win in any category then we are very proud, but mainly the aim is to PAINT and be incited to do so.
I am definitely FOR an escort category. Votings this year and last year show that escorts have no chance facing cruisers and battleships. Maybe that a scenery category would be a good idea too. If there is no prize for every category, it's not a problem for me. As soon as we have the glory... ;D
The tiebreaker was a very good idea. And not only because my entry was part of it. ;)
Bigger is better. Allow bigger pictures, limit the weight because having files that need fifteen minutes to show on the screen is quite boring, but pixel width can be increased. My entry for GC10 was around 3000x1000 pixels, but its weight was only 540 Kb. It is not necessary to allow 3000 pixels wide images, but 800x600 is a bit small for montages.
Talking about montages, I would allow them but I would allow only one image per person.
Voting period of seven days would be fine. Two weeks is too long.
I hope that my english is not too horrible !
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My point regarding GC.
As I already said to Horizon I don't see the interest of having anonymous entries. My votings don't depend on the name of the painter, and anyway some of us have a style, a fleet or a color scheme that is quite easy to identify. On the contrary as a painter, I would like to have my name attached to my painting so that if maybe one person is interested to see what else I paint, he can find it.
Asking people not to show their minis before GC would - I think - have a negative impact on the french side. The reason is that we try to motivate each other by painting "together" (we show our WIP on our board) and commenting others work.
For me, GC is a good reason to paint the ship I have on my desk and would maybe have painted months later without the competition's deadline. If I or my friends win in any category then we are very proud, but mainly the aim is to PAINT and be incited to do so.
So you're saying that not having the names attached to the entries until after voting is completed would make you not want to bother?
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Thats rubbish. Coke is far superior :)
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+1 to Coke being better than Pepsi.
7-Up is better than Sprite though.
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A good Shiraz anyday. Or an excellent Weizenbeer (Erdinger, Paulaner, etc).
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Maybe but I don't have access to those brands where I am. Coke, Pepsi, 7-Up and Sprite I have access to everyday. ^_^
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Dr. Pepper for the win!
-Zhukov
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Blargh, Dr. Pepper is foul. A good Portello or Creamy Soda is better than either Coke or Pepsi though.
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.....and before I start a poll on favourite drinks I'll think we need to go back to BFG...
:)