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Necromunda => [Necro] Rules Development Feedback => [Necro] House Rules => Topic started by: Madness on July 17, 2009, 05:36:30 PM
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Ok, so, I've been working HARD with a spreadsheet and have a first draft for what would be a Wyrd gang I like.
Objectives:
- Heavily inspired by the 2nd edition 40k standards
- Doesn't turn every game in a freakshow with fireworks exploding all around, at least not at early stages
- Able to field more units than the spyrers
- Cool with a nice amount of powers used
- Fluffy
- Doesn't turn Necromunda into something that it's not
- Variety of powers to avoid min maxing
Analysis:
I grabbed the stats from the IG Codex and the Codex Imperialis and these are the normal human stats
Profile | M | WS | BS | S | T | W | I | A | Ld |
| Mighty Hero | 4 | 6 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 6 | 3 | 9 |
| Hero | 4 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 8 |
| Champion | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 8 |
| Normal | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 7 |
| Untrained | 4 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 6 |
The Untrained profile is from the Sisters of Battle militia.
As you might have noticed, those are the baseline stats of juves, gangers and leaders, the Mighty Hero statline is the maximum stat limit in Necromunda as well.
A quick math job tells me that there are 20 stat points of difference between the Juve and the maximals, and 20 are the maximum advance rolls a juve does if he gets to 401 xp.
That confirmed the source of the max advance rolls.
I then proceeded to analyze the chances of getting each specific roll, multiplied that probability by 20 rolls, and obtained the average Mighty Hero Ganger.
Profile | M | WS | BS | S | T | W | I | A | Ld | Skills | *Skills |
| Average Mighty Hero | 4 | 4.8 | 4.8 | 4.1 | 4.1 | 2.1 | 4.7 | 2.1 | 7.7 | 5.6 | 1.1 |
WAY too close to the Hero stats to ignore. The advance roll table should be tooled in a way that brings the average roller with a Hero stat line once he's at 401 xp.
Then I fetched the Imperial psykers stats.
Profile | M | WS | BS | S | T | W | I | A | Ld |
| Psyker Lord | 4 | 6 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 3 | 8 |
| Master Psyker | 4 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 5 | 2 | 7 |
| Psyker Champion | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 7 |
| Adeptus Psyker | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 7 |
| Necromundan Wyrd | 4 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 7 |
Ok, the T never changes, the Ld changes only once in a blue moon, the S changes, but changes early, so it's ok to get people to roll for it.
I decided that the stat line for a WyrdJuve equivalent should be the same as a Necromundan Wyrd but with I3 and Ld6 not too make them too different from a normal Juve (in order to keep the cost low, and have a larger gang).
Also Ld for Wyrd is too useful a stat to let the lucky ones be too superior to the unlucky ones, at least as far as increases go, there's still serious injuries for the jinxed ones. :P
So, ignoring the Ld for now, and counting the advances necessary for a WyrdJuve to become a WyrdLord I get 17. 17 bands.
The normal advance level table is 4,4,7,5 (advances from juve to ganger to champion/leader to hero to mighty hero) which, while adding up to 20, means that when a juve becomes ganger it will have 4 advances while it would only need 3 to become a ganger equivalent (+1ws +1bs +1Ld). I like that, I'm keeping it for my Wyrd advance table. The remaining bunch are correct, a ganger and a leader really differ by 4, a champion and a hero by 7 etc...
Ignoring the Ld, I should have 4,4,5,4 so if I want a Hero to be Hero at 201 xp, I'll have to redo the bands fr the champion->hero bit. 140 points in 5 bands (instead of 7) means 28 xp each band.
That's and odd number and I decide to make it 25xp with 2 larger bands in the end of 30 and 35xp rewarding those who get to 201xp (which is a lot) with a +1 in Ld for free, a little early, but I'm willing to be bold.
The resulting advance table is
0-5 Juve
6-10
11-15
16-20
21-30 Ganger Minor power +1Ld
31-40
41-50
51-60
61-85 Champ Major power
86-110
111-135
146-165
166-200
201-250 Hero Minor power +1Ld
251-300
301-350
351-400
401+ Mighty Hero Major power
I'm sending right now, I'm way too scared to lose what I've written until now.
P.S.: Advancement Roll Table, Roll 2d6:
2: Any Skill
3: Roll again, 1-3: Wounds; 4-6: Initiative
4: Roll again, 1-3: WS; 4-6:BS
5: Roll again, 1-3: Strength; 4-6:Attacks
6: Roll again, 1-3: WS; 4-6:BS
7: Roll again, 1-3: Wounds; 4-6:Initiative
8: Roll again, 1-3: WS; 4-6:BS
9: Skill
10: Skill
11: Skill
12: Any Skill
wow, it's less weird than I expected.
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Now, something more fluffy before I drown in the math.
The names are not settled, I'd like to have some brainstorming (not literally mister telepathic, thank you) before choosing them.
Background
Wyrds are a rare race in Necromunda, not because of the birth statistics, but because everyone seems to be after them. Enforcers have the order to capture as many alive as possible (apparently in the spire they pay well for them, altough no one has seen more than a couple in the noble quarters, they probably are sent offworld for whatever reasons), Redemptionists hunt them as living scum, Guilders use their ability to get better deals or in their power schemes, Underhive Gangs look to hire them partly to use their abilities in the continuous fights and partly as meatshield to sacrifice to get a better firing point or cover a cunning side charge.
Sometimes a determined abhuman decides to gather some of his kind and put his/her experience to use protecting them and teaching them how to protect themselves, while at the same time training together in order to refine their skills, thus are Wyrd Covenants born.
I'm unsure about covenant, I was also thinking about the term brotherhood. The prose is very under par, anyone able and willing to work on that will have my welcome. The BG is not set in stone, btw.
1 WyrdLeader
WyrdLeaders are mysterious and awe-inspiring figures who bear the scars of their experience, they usually learned the hard way how dangerous can the Hive be, some of them are adepts who fled from the Scholastica Psykana concentration camps after receiving a brief tutoring, some have tracked down manuals and manuscripts who detail the Warp and its use, some were directly tutored by more powerful Wyrds. Whatever their past was, they have now decided that it's time for them to stop being the students and teach what they know both as warriors and psykers.
WyrdLeaders start with a Psyker Champion profile, with a primary power of the type decided by the player and a minor power, reroll all the results of "None", "Multiple Minor Powers" and "Extra Primary Power". They can use all the equipment from the armory. Haven't gone into cost, but considering the 2 wound, T4, psyker powers, I'm afraid they won't come cheap, I'm thinking 200 creds. Start with 60+d6 xp
0-2 WyrdHeavy
WyrdHeavy are naturally talented Warp wielder, they are self-taught, arrogant, and completely inept at fighting with anything but their powers. While they usually wander alone the Underhive working as mercenaries or as independent agents, sometimes they get to taste the sour taste of payback. When that happens they go into hiding, and usually accept wholeheartedly the offer of a WyrdLeader to join the WyrdGang and teach what they know. At least until they get bored or find something better to do.
WyrdHeavy start with the normal Necromundan Wyrd profile, with a primary power of the type decided by the player(can't be the same as WyrdLeader or any other WyrdHeavy) and a minor power. Limited selection from the armory. The cost should find a balance between the poor stats and the starting power, they are the only ones who (once every 36 times...) have multiple primary powers since the beginning, I'd like players to switch them out every now and then, just like another player would do with equipment, they aren't strictly loyal to the gang, so the rotation is both tactically sound and fluffy, 75 creds? Start with 60+d6xp
Any number of WyrdGangers
WyrdGangers are not Wyrds. At least that's what they always thought. Sure, they had that particular skill that made them stand out, maybe they were exceptionally sensitive, extremely tough, or could see clearly in the dark, but that was never a problem.
It wasn't until someone noticed, now it is a problem, they may have gotten in troubles by winning too much at a gambling lounge, they might be Cawdors who started raising suspects among their peers and the Red Redemption allies. One thing is sure, they aren't very welcome anymore, and they have the wits to notice it, so they vanish in the Underhive depths looking for a safe haven. The kind of safe haven that a WyrdGang can offer to loyal members, specially if they can fight.
WyrdGangers start with an Adeptus Psyker profile and a minor power, reroll all the results of "None", "Multiple Minor Powers" and "Extra Primary Power". They can use most of the equipment from the armory. They should cost more than gangers as they have better stats and are "close" to get a Primary power, perhaps 75 creds as well. Start with 20+d6xp
No more than half od the gang of WyrdJuves
Tired of typing, the juves should be mopey gloomy, headache prone juves who either went on a suicide mission to prove they are not the inept they appear to be (due to the constant vision bits, headaches, and other physical symptoms during the adolescence) or wandered off in a state of deep depression or stuff like that.
WyrdJuves start with an Untrained profile with T4. Very limited armory selection. They should cost more than juves for the T4 and the potential psyker, around 30/35 creds. Start with d6xp.
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Ok, now I can start getting feedback.
/me sits and waits
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Seriously, I need feedback before proceeding. :/
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I don't want to feel like I'm kicking you in the teeth here, but honestly I think you're writing these rules from the completely wrong direction (sorry :P).
To summarise, I think you should be using the existing wyrd hired gun as a basis for characteristic profiles (e.g. so a leader wouldn't start with a WS/BS of anything better than 3 and 1W) since wyrds are still regular hivers not trained psykers. One of the corner stones of Necro is the completely random advance chart that is changed very little between all of the gangs, except spyrers, so I don't see why a wyrd gang should be any different (though arguably Ld might need moving). Finally, with the right restrictions I can't see why most of the gang shouldn't start with a primary power, after all that's why people will want to use them. So a setup of Magus (1 prim, 2 minor), Wyrd (1 prim, 1 minor) and Awakening Wyrd (1 minor) seems like a good way of organising the gang.
You did ask for feedback...
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Well, I stated my Objectives as the first thing. I wanted this to be in line with the outline GW created for human psykers.
As per the hired guns, it's clearly stated in their fluff that they are arrogant being who didn't bother training.
The advance chart is somewhat common to most gangs, but most gangs are humans, psykers are not.
If I were to do a Squat gang I would check their maximal and their progression to see if the current table was usable. In this case it wasn't.
It's about shaping the progress towards a common objective. Having a wyrd gang with more than 3 guys with primary psyker powers would end in psyker powers being the actual weapons, with standard weapons be reduced to a minimum.
Again, if I ignore my objectives and begin with different ones, I would probably end up where you are.
Oh, by the way, your site and your pdf rocks, they are made with a really good care.
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Its definitely an interesting start. I'd like to see where it progresses to.
One thing I've got to criticise is the tentative cost given to the fighters. I usually class +1 toughness at 15 creds of value. Don't underestimate it, it's an extremely useful starting boost. On top of that they get wyrd powers. I would tentatively class them as being worth from 20-30 creds of value for a major power and 10 creds for a minor power. A lot of them are easily as valuable as a weapon. Some more so.
I kind of like the lengths you went to in order to keep the percentages right for levelling up. I'm not as married to the original advance list as Ant is, especially for a house rules project.
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The costs are VERY subject to discussion, I'd like for them not to be cheap but also be able to start with a decent sized gang.
Just a brief thought that might help in costing the gang:
- I don't plan to give them as many weapons options
- Perils of the Warp is going to kill people in this gang. Many people.
I was also thinking about forcing the Leader to be a Telepath (he could be an escaped astropath trainee in addition to all the other possible bg stuff). It would allow me to make the post-battle sequence less limited, letting him act as any outlaw, or maybe even better.
About powers, I was thinking to make them randomize one as soon as they reach 61xp, with a chance to reroll(or even a forced reroll) if it was the power most present in the gang, even if it's tied up for first. The second result stays.
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I was also thinking about forcing the Leader to be a Telepath (he could be an escaped astropath trainee in addition to all the other possible bg stuff). It would allow me to make the post-battle sequence less limited, letting him act as any outlaw, or maybe even better.
If you go down that road then you could come up with your own primary power table loosely based on the Imperial Guard psyker powers. The leader and heavies could then use this table and represent pysker escapees while the others are just wyrds recruited from the Underhive.
//edit
Oh, by the way, your site and your pdf rocks, they are made with a really good care.
Thanks. :) Hopefully I'll get back to updating them more regularly in the Autumn. Gah, I feel really bad for slating the entirety of your work in my first post now...
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Gah, I feel really bad for slating the entirety of your work in my first post now...
Don't, I appreciate any kind of feedback, even the kind that is off the track, it helps the following replies to be more on-spot.
Concerning the new table:
- I'm pretty confident I would make a terible job at that
- I have really no idea how to develop the fluff to be interesting for 2 different types of semitrained psykers, while using a escapee+hired gun might give them a decent angle and characterization, for the alternative I'm pretty devoid of anything
- I'd lose the cameo role of the wyrdheavy as it is now.
@Ant: any chance I'll get some help with the formatting once I'm done here? :P
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The costs are VERY subject to discussion, I'd like for them not to be cheap but also be able to start with a decent sized gang.
Eh. When starting with wyrd powers that's kinda hard to achieve while still costing them correctly, IMO. They do receive a bonus in that they won't have a heavy with heavy weapon sucking up credits though.
Just a brief thought that might help in costing the gang:
- I don't plan to give them as many weapons options
- Perils of the Warp is going to kill people in this gang. Many people.
Neither of those options will make it particularly easy to cost for. Particularly if the limited weapons applies off their house weapons list.
I was also thinking about forcing the Leader to be a Telepath (he could be an escaped astropath trainee in addition to all the other possible bg stuff). It would allow me to make the post-battle sequence less limited, letting him act as any outlaw, or maybe even better.
This would be interesting, except for what happens in challenges and when the leader dies. As to post-battle sequence, I would be perfectly happy (myself) with them functioning as normal outlaws, and if the leader either has special powers or psychic powers (forced) functioning as a normal ganger.
About powers, I was thinking to make them randomize one as soon as they reach 61xp, with a chance to reroll(or even a forced reroll) if it was the power most present in the gang, even if it's tied up for first. The second result stays.
I think most people will agree that randomisation for major powers is a necessity.
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Ok, so Telephath leader=better rules for post-battle sequence. If WyrdGanger turns out to be a telepath he can act as a new leader.
Oh, no challenges. They are supposed to be smarter than cocky. With the exception of the WyrdHeavy who are just "tagging along". I want to give the feeling that WyrdHeavies are nothing short of Hired Guns who roll advances and cost less.
Possession, what about making wards/seals/scavenged soulstones/whatever that break on a 2/12 roll on wyrd power tests, cost quite a lot(30?), and allow a reroll on the Ld test. To be used before the Perils of the Warp test. Remember, one-shot item.
Might be useless, I need to run some statistic tests to see how often a death is caused by the Perils. If it turns out to be about the same as a weapon exploding, there's no need for that.
Other new ideas, Level 2 Beastmasters get D6 creatures, Level 3 Beastmasters (only WyrdHeavies can get there) D6+D3, Level 4 Beastmaster (means you rolled 66 twice on the minor power with a WyrdHeavy!) can control 1 big bad meany beast.
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Ok, so Telephath leader=better rules for post-battle sequence. If WyrdGanger turns out to be a telepath he can act as a new leader.
Oh, no challenges. They are supposed to be smarter than cocky. With the exception of the WyrdHeavy who are just "tagging along". I want to give the feeling that WyrdHeavies are nothing short of Hired Guns who roll advances and cost less.
What about if the gang has no telepaths and the leader dies?
Possession, what about making wards/seals/scavenged soulstones/whatever that break on a 2/12 roll on wyrd power tests, cost quite a lot(30?), and allow a reroll on the Ld test. To be used before the Perils of the Warp test. Remember, one-shot item.
One shot items, IMO, kind of suck. How about a save vs possession item. Rare? Or it doesn't prevent possession, just save vs death if you are possessed. You could have a mix of items that affect the results, with only one being allowed per person. Any straight reroll of leadership tests with regards to psychic tests need to be either rare or hard to acquire in some way or expensive as you've put if they're one shot. Perhaps call them focus. To my mind seal harks back to the Emperor and you definitely don't want to imply they're sanctioned, ditto wards which imply training, and soulstones imply eldar.
Might be useless, I need to run some statistic tests to see how often a death is caused by the Perils. If it turns out to be about the same as a weapon exploding, there's no need for that.
Other new ideas, Level 2 Beastmasters get D6 creatures, Level 3 Beastmasters (only WyrdHeavies can get there) D6+D3, Level 4 Beastmaster (means you rolled 66 twice on the minor power with a WyrdHeavy!) can control 1 big bad meany beast.
That is interesting, and they do need the potential to get better. The other option is too pick larger beasts from the currently existing bestiary for them to control, or take a shot at creating your own (which would be harder).
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Of course I'd be picking from the bestiary.
If the Leader Dies and no Telepath has risen yet, they get worse rules for trading posts.
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I did the math for the perils, nothing too enjoyable, an I4 Ld7 W1 guy goes down 2.31% of the times, with 0.31% being a straightforward death.
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Skill table:
- Leader: anything but muscle
- Heavies:
- Beastmaster:Stealth, Ferocity, Muscle
- Pyromaniac:Combat, Agility, Ferocity
- Telepath:Shooting, Techno, Stealth
- Telekinetic:Muscle, Combat, Shooting
- Gangers/Juves: Stealth, Combat, plus the relative one from the Heavy table once they get their Primary power.
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I did the math for the perils, nothing too enjoyable, an I4 Ld7 W1 guy goes down 2.31% of the times, with 0.31% being a straightforward death.
Can you explain this a little better? Edit: Think I figured out most of it below. I'll trust your math on the d6 strength hit, don't feel like doing the math 6 times.
Ld7 is 58% to pass, 42% chance to fail. You take a perils test 1/18 times you use a power. 1/6 times he needs to pass an initiative test to live, 1/3 times he needs to pass a leadership test to live, and 1/2 the time he just takes a hit (no instadeath there, no problem).
So, (1/18) * (1/6) * (1/3) = 0.31% to be sucked away into the void, every time they use a power. (Assuming your stats of 7ld 4I)
Posession would be (1/18) * (1/3) * 0.42 = ~0.77% chance to get possessed (and killed) every time they use a power.
Add those up, 1% chance to be straight up killed every time they use a power, with average leadership and above average initiative.
Perhaps your little magic item could be like what liches have in fantasy worlds, some kind of receptacle for the Wyrd's soul. If a demon possesses him, his soul flees into some staff/pendant/whatever during the duration, then returns when the demon is forced back to the warp. Something like that should definitely be expensive.
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Well, there are plenty of preexisting items to ward off daemons, the simplest one out there is the purity seal.
I'm still thinking whether to make it a consumable item or a permanent one a la blindsnake pouch that prevents Peril roll on a Ld roll of 2.
My math for the Peril is in the good ol' spreadsheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ajsfa7IL25vhdGR5QkNiTkM2RzgxR2REeWdTQkZvTWc&hl=en)
Death is a pretty excessive term, actually it's more of a "suffering one wound" thing. Real death only comes 0.31% of the times.
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Death is a pretty excessive term, actually it's more of a "suffering one wound" thing. Real death only comes 0.31% of the times.
Are you saying possession, in your rules, doesn't kill the model? Because I just showed that possession would occur 0.77% of the time. I'd call that 'real death' along with being sucked into the warp, which is the 0.31% chance, for a grand total of about 1%.
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You roll on The Perils table when you rolla 2 or 12 during a wyrd power test,
1 chances out of 6 times you check Initiative, if you fail you die outright with no other chance possible
2 chances out of 6 times you check Ld and if you fail you are possessed, if you are possesed and they send you OOA the possession ends, and I'm guessing it's a roll on the serious injuries (so, not death outright)
3 chances out of 6 you get hit at d6 strength, which is like being hit from a weapon, meaning you roll for toughness, remove one wound, and eventually roll for flesh/down/OOA, and in turn you roll on the serious injuries table.
So it's not so easy to calculate the actual chances of death without knowing the exact I, Ld and W, and even then, you might get a crippled guy from multiple injuries...
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2 chances out of 6 times you check Ld and if you fail you are possessed, if you are possesed and they send you OOA the possession ends, and I'm guessing it's a roll on the serious injuries (so, not death outright)
Double check the possession rules... From the Wyrd rules (ugh it won't copy/paste, typing this out):
Roll for damage against the Wyrd normally. However, he ignores pinning and any 'flesh wounds' and 'down' results on the Injury table. If a player takes him out of action, roll immediately on the Serious Injuries Chart. Only a 'Dead' result will banish the daemon back to the Warp and kill the Wyrd. On any other roll the Wyrd gets straight back up again and is completely unaffected!
You cannot down a possessed wyrd, and the only way to stop it is to take him OOA, and immediately roll a 11-16 on the injury chart. So that is assured death there.
The other way for it to go away is to roll a 1 at the end of the turn, meaning he just burns up. Either way, the Wyrd dies. Possession is 100% fatal in the given rules.
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I misread that. Well, in the other half of the cases is not that fatal still.
But I see how much more they need that item then.
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So statistically a wyrd only perishes due to perils of the warp roughly once every 100 times a power is used? I'm not sure I'd bother buying a protective item with those odds, not unless there where other items that increased your chance of perishing. For example, you could add an item that once per game allowed a wyrd to re-roll a failed Ld test, but on the re-roll any double would result in a roll on the perils of the warp table.
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Nice idea, have been watching for a while. Top stuff :D
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Actually one in 50. And that counts minor powers as well. If we average an use of 4/5 powers per game means that within 10 games that guy will die.
Sounds like a big deal to me.
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Actually one in 50. And that counts minor powers as well. If we average an use of 4/5 powers per game means that within 10 games that guy will die.
Sounds like a big deal to me.
Where are you getting your numbers :D We already figured it's 1% chance per use for the average wyrd, so it's 1/100. 0.31% chance for the hole in the voide, 0.77% for a possession. And 4/5 powers per game? You mean per model, right? Powers get used very frequently, as my friend has been showing me, testing out the pdf Ant posted in the other thread. In his 3 games so far, the first one he lost a man to possession, 2nd one he managed to stave off a possession by passing a leadership roll, and the 3rd was a quick game so he never had to take a test.
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I was shooting low on purpose, of course powers may be used far more.
And there's also the chance of an attack, which can cause a wound (1.23% to be added to the 1.08% of UNAVOIDABLE death.)
Considering the chances for the other "risky" actions (like shooting a stubgun with dumdum) seldom kill outright, and even then it's a very rare happening that they even manage to wound (1.39% against T3).
And even then I think an item a la blindsnake pouch is in order, at least to preserve the ones that get to a primary power.
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Am I still making sense?
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I suspect this is one of those occasions when only playtesting a full campaign with the gang can resolve it instead of playing mathhammer. I have had a couple of games with a wyrd gang and didn't need to roll for perils of the warp in either game. Perhaps I was just lucky?