Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: Pugwash on July 26, 2009, 12:59:50 PM
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Hi Folks
Does anyone have any advice as to how to combat the High Elf Dragon Rider? With his charge reach, terror factor, home-back, save and excellent attacks on the charge (even without Light of Battle, and hero joining it) I struggle to dispatch it with empire, chaos and dark elves. Particularly when it can charge a flank.
Can anyone provide advice to deal with it and not lose 4-8 units in the process?
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Ohhh... My regular opponent uses a pair of them and they are real headache. And I still didn't find any way to deal with them except charging the DR in front and flank with 2 units of heavy cavalry supported by terror causing character(s) and blocking DR's retreat with 3d unit (of any type) placed 1cm away DR in irregular formation (idea is to make DR loose a combat by 1 at least).
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Offhand, I'd say flagellents, dragon ogres, and a war hydra, respectively. With the empire and DE, you're probably able to outnumber the elves (esp. when they take the dragon rider), so you can wait until he puts the DR down during deployment, then place those units so they can act as 1) deterrent to him being reckless with it, then 2) sacrifice to hurt/kill the thing. A nice battery of cannon with good placement could do the trick if you're lucky...
In any case, don't plan on those units surviving to complete the task :(
Normally, I'd balk at taking too many expensive units, but if the HE player has a dragon, then he's already reduced his breakpoint significantly, so that gives you a little wiggle room to splurg on 1-2 monsters.
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My regular opponent uses a pair of them and they are real headache
Ouch! My sympathies :(
@ captPiett I agree that Dragon Ogres can do the job :), not so sure about the flagellants given the chance of only one stand fighting and no armour saves, but if the Dragon Rider were already wounded they might be a dis-incentive. :-\
Knights joined by a terror causer (hero on Griffon) seem to be the Empire's best hope and as you point out the chances of either surviving the combat + subsequent counter-charges are not high. Nevertheless, that seems reasonable given the cost of the dragon. The problem really lies in the DR's range. Even if I deploy well, he will simply home-back to a new position, then initiate a regular/flank charge on almost any formation he wishes, meaning I'd have to hold several units of knights back as bodyguards, and pray that after eating a brigade from the flank (with an advance charge), he doesn't fall back far enough to be beyond charge reach and that my characters don't botch the orders.
My experience has been that the Dragon Rider used offensively will eat at least 4-6 units of Empire Troops, before I can really damage him, and while that is still not unreasonable in points terms, it often means that my army is half-way to broken before my 3rd turn :(
I guess one answer is to get my demons painted and return the favour with a Greater Demon! 8)
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I must be missing a trick here.
Whenever I use the dragon rider he gets pasted next turn.
Am I right in thinking that his redeploy at the end of combat is still 3 dice?
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do u mean 'fall back'?
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yes
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yes, DR may (or - in the case of draw - must) fall back in a distance up to 3D6 and reform at the end of phase as normal.
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So it will be within charge range most of the time of your opponent next turn, before you get the chance to homeback.
As long as you drag along a terror causer it can be taken out or severely hurt thereby halving its potential.
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So it will be within charge range most of the time of your opponent next turn
Well, I guess this depends on the circumstances.
In my view, unless your opponent targets a unit very near your knights, the Dragon Rider will fall back (on average) beyond initiative charge reach.
Playing Empire last night* the dragon rider fell back beyond the charge-arc of my knights, it was two orders to get them in, 1 to move to see them, and 1 to charge (and due to the proximity of the DR a subsequent -1), which I, predictably, failed initially.
So, an effective counter-Dragon Rider plan assumes that you bodyguard more vulnerable brigades with knights and ensure that your terror causing character is available, and hope that the General is the closest commander - which on top of the initial charge casualties, and advance charge casualties, and probability of losing combat effectiveness for the knights concerned - makes for a considerable investment in strategy to combat a single enemy unit. And that's if you can actually kill it before it homes-back.
* I make no claim to being an exceptional general.
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In my cricumstance, as the dragon rider fell back beyond the charge-arc of my knights, it was two orders to get them in, 1 to move to see them, and 1 to charge (and due to the proximity of the DR a subsequent-1), which I predictably failed initially.
* I make no claim to being an exceptional general.
If you make your 2nd command outside of 20cm from the DR then you do not suffer the -1 command penalty.
I have heard great tales of DR's being game winners.
A lad at our club reckons he can beat any army and always takes 2 plus a hero on a dragon.
But whenever I have tried to take them I find them a complete waste of points.
Also I have never seen the lad in question win a game with them.
He regularly gets his ass handed to him.
So I am curious if anyone does have solid tactics for using them as I have 5 sat in my army that very rarely see a game.
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If you make your 2nd command outside of 20cm from the DR then you do not suffer the -1 command penalty.
If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride.
So I am curious if anyone does have solid tactics for using them
Bel probably has more tips than I but:
Take one dragon rider; send two wizards forward, and home the dragon back to the one with the sweetest view of softest unit of infantry you can find. See if you can force the other general to hold back key cavalry while you send yours forward, then charge the dragon into the infantry or war machines, supported by a Light of Battle, and advance charge into a flank, preferably where units are aligned in a line behind each other so you fight both units in the flank, then once the screaming stops fall back on the most obtuse angle possible to make counter-charges hard. With luck, rinse and repeat. Even if your opponent commits his best resources, and actually takes out the dragon rider, your cavalry and silver helms should now be poised to break the key remaining units using superior High Elf command.
Optionally, the dragon rider joins two units of silver helms in the charge and completely mashes whatever its fighting. After the enemy is crushed fall them back together, so that even on the charge you will likely destroy, or seriously cripple counter-charges.
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I would say only the Dragon Riders work nice when in pair, supporting each other - at least against me - I mean 2000 pts game and a formal support. DR alone or DR + character on the Dragon are less effective, more vulnerable and look like a pointsink.
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A lad at our club reckons he can beat any army and always takes 2 plus a hero on a dragon.
But whenever I have tried to take them I find them a complete waste of points.
Also I have never seen the lad in question win a game with them.
He regularly gets his ass handed to him.
So there's a bit of self delusion going on at your club? ;)
The elves are good enough w/o the DR, IMO.
They do seem to be a huge point sink.
As to the flagellants and their utility against a DR, yes, with them you'd have to get pretty lucky, as in having them supported, or getting a flanking charge in, or a combination of both. I was thinking of their immunity to terror, but they'd be more of a speedbump/sacrifice than a credible foe. As said in previous posts, the DR can act as a huge distraction, drawing off your powerful units. So, with a high-breakpoint army, I'd commit a brigade of regular troops just to hurt the thing, as long as my knights (chaos, imperial, undead, etc) are preserved for their real purpose: making the enemy reach his breakpoint first. If I have a low-breakpoint army, I probably have a few nasty monsters of my own with which to combat the DR.
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Well for telling the truth I have not played too much with the dragon raider, but the few games we used it doesn`t seem too dangerous. I guess we didnt used in in its full potential (supported with magic, flanking etc...)
That was my experience
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I have faced one dragon rider, once till now (because of the lack of HE players) but he did not do damage worth his cost before taken down by 2 units of bretonnian knights (one attacked, one blocked his way). I think its better to go with 2 units of eagles, a hero on dragon and invest the remaining points in cavalry.
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I think its better to go with 2 units of eagles, a hero on dragon and invest the remaining points in cavalry.
Yeah, my another opponent plays this way (he usually takes 1st/2d places on our tournies).
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Actually, I find his greatest value is in the hesitation he causes you pugwash :)
Given that warmaster is won by being offensive, the fact that he causes you to think defensively gives me free reign to pick my fights with all my units. Try ignoring him and bashing on. Yes he may kill 3-4 units but if you can destroy 4-6 of my squishy bits in the meantime you're ahead. ie make a plan to kill my units and ignore the distraction, of course its easy for me to say!
And yes, if I get time I'd like to swap him for 2 SH and 1 GE units I think these would be more combat effective, albiet less of a distraction.
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Shure Dragon Riders are tough ones and especiall if appearing in pairs lead by a skilled general but......as others mentioned already....this means for the HE player to have a significant low Breakpoint.
Also they are not unkillable. Of course it allways depends on the army....and for Undead it´s for shure a hard task to kill them.
Surround them and try to get support into play...you don´t need to kill it. Just win close combat by 1 and he can´t escape when being sourrounded.
As an Empire player you have a nice spell for your wizzards.....WEIRD ENCHANTMENT....meaning to reduce charging distance of the Dragon to 50 cm and killing it´s "terror" bonus. An option to think about.
I prefer to have more units on the table instead of 2 heavy hittings and and very expensive ones for 600 points.
Cheers
Claus
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As an Empire player you have a nice spell for your wizzards.....WEIRD ENCHANTMENT....meaning to reduce charging distance of the Dragon to 50 cm and killing it´s "terror" bonus. An option to think about.
Despite flying creatures having 100cm movement, can't they only charge units they can see, i.e. within 30cm?
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They can charge on initiative only within 20cm but with an order you can charge the full 100cm.
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They can charge on initiative only within 20cm but with an order you can charge the full 100cm.
Isn't a unit required to see what its charging though? So, a for a flying unit to make a 100cm charge, there would have to be a heck of lot of open space between it and the target (at which point you'd have to smack whoever set up the terrain ;) ) Is there a range-limit to what a unit can see?
The reason I ask is it makes sense if you consider charging with a brigade: each unit goes one at a time, if the the first chargers block LoS for the subsequent ones, they're out of luck. They may have the movement to get to a flank, but if they can't see the flank, no charge.
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You need to have LOS to charge.
Two units of flyers will almost always have problems alligning so the second can still pull of a charge
The keyword for setting up Warmaster terrain is LINEAIR OBSTACLES
Within the playtest team, one of the "V2" issues on the list was to restrict all charges to LOS + 60cm distance. Which "partly" helps solve some of these issues
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But it is enough to have a line of sight to any point of the charged unit. So you do not need to see exactly the flank if you would be obliged to charge there.
On the other hand you need enough room to place the charging unit. If you would be charging the flank of a unit and there is a wall one centimeter away so that less than a centimeter of the flank-edge is free - you may not charge.
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Cannons, lots of cannons, and a couple of hellblasters if you can for point defence. Put them on a hill, then even if the little blighter hides behind a forest or something then you may still be able to fire at it, and if it charges your gun-line then you will most likely be able to shoot at it with between eight and ten S&S attacks, the cannon ones will ignore armour. And of course it's going to be hitting you on 5+'s, with no charge or monster-charge bonuses.
I've actually seen a dragon and Eagles charge my artillery brigade, only to lose two stands of Eagles, the dragon get wounded to half strength and then bounce off in defeat.
And of course two units of cannos firing at a dragon at range will on average cause four wounds, but if you're lucky maybe as many as eight. Just remember to play dirty back at the High Elves, if you can then screen you LoS and engage his other units with lots and lots of knights.
And of course that is the other way to fight a dragon. Just ignore it, or at least ensure that it plays as little a part in the battle as possible by proactively hunting down the rest of the HE army. If you break him before it even enters combat, then it will at least teach your opponent that putting all his expensive eggs in one basket wasn't such a good idea afterall...
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Cannons, lots of cannons, and a couple of hellblasters if you can for point defence. Put them on a hill, then even if the little blighter hides behind a forest or something then you may still be able to fire at it, and if it charges your gun-line then you will most likely be able to shoot at it with between eight and ten S&S attacks, the cannon ones will ignore armour. And of course it's going to be hitting you on 5+'s, with no charge or monster-charge bonuses.
IIRC cannons' 'S&S' attacks are with grapeshot -- I'm not sure that they ignore armor.
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Cannons, lots of cannons, and a couple of hellblasters if you can for point defence. Put them on a hill, then even if the little blighter hides behind a forest or something then you may still be able to fire at it, and if it charges your gun-line then you will most likely be able to shoot at it with between eight and ten S&S attacks, the cannon ones will ignore armour. And of course it's going to be hitting you on 5+'s, with no charge or monster-charge bonuses.
IIRC cannons' 'S&S' attacks are with grapeshot -- I'm not sure that they ignore armor.
S&S has normal AS, so no automatic hits on dragons!
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Ah yes, good point, I'm more than a little rusty I'm afraid. Still 10+ S&S attacks is going to hurt, armour saves or not...
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Interesting responses.
You need to have LOS to charge.
Two units of flyers will almost always have problems alligning so the second can still pull of a charge
The keyword for setting up Warmaster terrain is LINEAIR OBSTACLES
Hmm, it seems to me that with Home-Back and LD10 there would be few issues of setting up a flank charge on a soft unit even in a battlefield packed with terrain on any turn following the first. As an additional bonus, even a failed order is unlikely to put the flyers in danger, unlike any other unit.
Try ignoring him and bashing on. Yes he may kill 3-4 units but if you can destroy 4-6 of my squishy bits in the meantime you're ahead. ie make a plan to kill my units and ignore the distraction, of course its easy for me to say!
Well, to be clear, he destroyed almost half my army break point single handed last game by turn 2, and was uninjured and in a position to achieve another flank charge into soft units on initiative. Had I not gone out of my way to kill him, I suspect the game would have ended much sooner.
Still 10+ S&S attacks is going to hurt
hmm... not convinced of the value of stand and shoot vs Dragon Rider. A unit of Cannons would have 4 stand-and-shoot shots, of which 2, on average, would hit - both of which are likely to be saved by a 3+ saving throw. Add in a Hellblaster, and assume the Dragon Rider is foolish enough to charge the cannon stand next to it, rather than the other, and you're looking at 10 shots (including cannons - assuming no hellblaster malfunctions). So figure 5 hits on average, and 3-4 saves from the Dragon Rider, leaving 1-2 unsaved if you're lucky. You lose a unit, possibly 2 or more if there's an advance charge once he pulverises your guns. He probably doesn't get injured and is free to wreck havoc havoc behind your lines and potentially doesn't even lose 1 off his army break point. Being on a hill would help, but, in my view, wouldn't change the outcome significantly - particularly if the elf magic is in force.
Also they are not unkillable
A lot of responses seem to imply I am thinking of Dragon Riders as a doomsday unit, but rather I simply question; in a game which is generally played to 'break-point' how one might deal with the dragon rider who seems able to inflict an unbalanced amount of damage*; or...
Original Question:
Can anyone provide advice to deal with it and not lose 4-8 units in the process?
And thanks to the good suggestions thus far; Wierd Enchantment, flagellant deterrent, cannon and hellblaster deterrent.
* Let me be clear; if we played warmaster on points like WFB, I think that it would be hard for a Dragon Rider to ever achieve an equal value.
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"if we played warmaster on points like WFB" - standard victory conditions are, of course, based on points and losing a Dragon Rider can make winning a battle extremely difficult! Sometimes you are reduced to hunting enemy generals to secure a draw by forcing the enemy army to Withdraw.
I sometimes use Dragon Riders in 3,000+ point battles but rarely below that, they are just too expensive for the risk and for the damage they do.
Dragon mounts are a whole different matter, I take as many as I can in both my HE and Chaos armies
That's my take, anyway.
Mike
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standard victory conditions are, of course, based on points and losing a Dragon Rider can make winning a battle extremely difficult!
Well, the clause that says "the withdrawing army cannot score higher than its enemy", seems to mean that if you break enough enemy units the best an enemy can hope for is a draw, regardless of how many expensive units, like dragon riders, have been killed. If you've triggered a withdrawl, then it's win or draw, which seems like a sweet option given my win-loss record!
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I've only used the DR with a unit of Eagles and a HE character on an Eagle. This brigade can move anywhere on the battlefield. However, in playing against my usual opponent (who generally uses Chaos), this seems not be an effective combination. The brigade gets charged by Knights, and harpies are flown in as the backstop of doom.
I have used the DR and Eagles to good effect against Dwarves, and I like fielding the DR. Maybe 2 together are much stronger.
Anyway, if I were on the receiving end, I would put out a very tempting target verfy far from the rest of the Elves army. If he the HE player stomps on the bait, then the next turn you would need to charge and prevent the retreat of the said DRs. Magic, cannon, handgunners might help. The key here is to draw them away from the rest of the HE army so you can focus your entire army on the 2 DRs.
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As an aside, when trying to take out a unit of flyers, or something really big and nasty through the use of a brigade of something. If you can, then make sure that the first unit that goes in does not actually engage the unit being charged, but goes around it to block its retreat. Then pile in with your combat units, etc... to 'seal the deal'.
You can quite easily take out a joint brigade of a dragon and Eagles through the use of a brigade of three Empire knights by aligning the first unit to maximise the 'backstop' area, so that stand removal will be of no use. Then pile the other two units in and concentrate as many of your attacks on the Eagles as you can, and of course if possible put a griffon in there to negate the terror, and use weird enchantment as well if you can for added punch. Of course it's almost always going to be at least a three order manouvre, and if you don't pull it off you can most likely say goodbye to that brigade the next turn as it will be HE's primary target for said dragon rider, etc...
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Anyway, if I were on the receiving end, I would put out a very tempting target verfy far from the rest of the Elves army. If he the HE player stomps on the bait, then the next turn you would need to charge and prevent the retreat of the said DRs. Magic, cannon, handgunners might help. The key here is to draw them away from the rest of the HE army so you can focus your entire army on the 2 DRs.
My reservation about this strategy is that far from the HE army is probably far from yours... and the problem is that it's fairly easy for the DR to chaw on the unit then home back and move out again.
I tend to think that flyers are best used on the flanks as a sort of ultra-lignt cavalry. The dangerous temptation to the dragon is that it'll be thrown into the thick of things, where its main advantages are lost in the scrum -- e.g. as Undead, butting Sphinx and Bone Gient ==more likely than not near the center of the line == against DR seems like a winning proposition.