Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Talos on August 30, 2012, 08:27:47 AM
-
Hey guys been lurking these forums for ages but decided to get more involved for once ::) So on to my topic: I am a fairly new BFG player and I primarily play IN, who I know are not considered very good but I love the fluff. My question is what viable fleet configurations are there other than shotgun/shear and NC standoff strategy? Splitting up my fleet into more than two groups always ends in disaster, and my two most common opponents (Tau and Eldar) are quite frustrating to play against. Unfortunately due to budget constraints they have rather small fleets and thus we mostly play small (750pt games) which really hurt my fleet options and tactics.
Any help from you grizzled veterans and masterful commanders would be greatly appreciated, either innovative fleet compositions (without stacking, of course) or unconventional strategies.
-
Hi and welcome,
first: Imperial Navy is not bad, quite okay actually. They just have so many options you can get lost. haha.
Although at 750points the IN is harder to play then at 1500pts. You could always play scenarios (eg raiders: 750pts Eldar vs 1500pts Imperial).
For a 750pts force the problem is the expense on the carrier.
1 Dictator
3 Dauntless
3 Swords
3 Cobra's
-
Thank you for your kind response, admiral ;) I do seem to have a real hard time countering ordinance at this game level, and those damn sidewinding tau torpedoes don't help the situation. The tau list is Forgeworld and includes a Custodian...which accounts for more than half my damage sustained! I am having a real hard time cracking it open before it decimates my fleet, and he's never missed a reload ordnance check even once in four games :'(
Sounds like a stupid question, but since the cobras need to touch to make effective salvoes does that not make them horribly vulnerable to gunnery? The custodian actually packs a decent amount at mid range.
-
We play with the v1.0 original blastmarker rules. Thus one blastmarker can ever only touch one vessel, even when massed. Plus markers still count as that arc only for gunnery effects and not allround.
This daft fiddling with allround or placing blastmarkers like you want is... stupid.
anywhoo.
Are you using the new FAQ2010/compendium rules for Tau or the older ones?
A Custodian will close, make use of that.
-
Unfortunately he keeps his custodian as far back as possible, making its guns less useful but the ordnance more so. As for the ruling, It was my belief that ships in base contact with each other...wait, so the only reason ships lose shield in contact is due to blast markers? So base touching a couple of cobras does not harm them? Hmmm... :o Okay, what kind of strategy would such a fleet use? I've only ever utilised large escort squadrons, I'm not sure how to effectively position or manoeuver them.
We are (trying) to use 2010 to begin with, maybe try out BFGR stuff in a couple of months when we got the swing of things. Also, do people typically use MSM or MMS 1.9 for Eldar? MSM takes me for an unpleasant ride :(
-
Hey,
on the subject of MMS vs MSM I am biased (as in being author of Eldar mms1.9b, BFG:R took on this set almost 1:1). :)
If you play vs MSM Eldar:
with celestial phenomena they'll toast you, without: you should be able to win easier.
Against msm Eldar: sent out bombers as single markers, never ever as a wave.
Blastmarkers hurt Eldar as well. So a saved lance might still be a death Eldar escort next turn.
Keep it together. Swords are ideal Eldar hunters being fast/zippy lots of batteries. Doing CTNH or AAF vs Eldar can be a good idea as one battery dice still has a 50% chance of destroying an Eldar escort or hitting a capital ship.
vs the Tau:
his Custodian at the back means his bombers need to travel more. Take a podshot on a large wave with lances or batteries. A single '6' is bye bye wave.
What is the rest of his fleet like? It is not about destroying the Custodian it is about making it go BFI so it can't reload. Then start hitting the rest. The Emissary is a soft target with 4 hits. Protectors are dangerous, but 6 hits is less then 8. :)
-
You could always go full out anti ac against the Tau too. Bakka list 2x endurance 2x endeavour (1 each in 2 squads and all with the additional turret) and an Admech Dictator with the fleet defense turret for 5pts as per bakka list and range upgrade. It might be a slogging fight against Eldar using this fleet but with the 90 degree turns on the light cruisers and a bit of ranged weaponery from the dictator you should be able to do alright.
-
He is running emissaries, to which are obvious targets for punishment. Thank your for responding too, Andrew. I am trying to avoid stacking or as much as possible (not to imply that your list is), as there is also a chaos fleet in the mix.
The fleet composition that got within an inch of winning (down to bad luck) was Bakka; 2 x Endeavour, Armageddon BC w/Nova and +1 Turret, 6 x Swords and basic admiral. I have had, admittedly terrible luck; on our second game I had a Mars and an Armageddon; First turn I direct hit with two Nova on the custodian....snake eyes. Warp Explosion later from the mars, max distance, reached out and inflicted a total of 14 hits on my ships! In a 750 pts game! Discouraging, to say the least. I'm assuming the strategy is to smash the living s*** out of his escorts and light cruisers and then either disengage or focus on the custodian.
Also, funny fact: I'm From Winnipeg, Manitoba (Canada) and although I know when you guys say BFI it's brace for impact, around here BFI is the local waste management company. So making a ship go BFI has a much more visceral image to me: compacted, crushed and tossed ;D
-
Tailoring is something I rather not do. I always build my list and play with it. Allround is they key. Only once I have changed a vessel afterwards (AdMech Defiant into AdMech Endeavour).
You don't need an admiral under 750pts by the way. Chaos does, Imperial not.
Losing like that is a ****. But it happens. :)
-
Armageddon list
2 dictators
1 Armageddon with nova cannon
-
Theres always the tried and true Mars Dominator Gothic Swords route. You should really just focus on making a fleet thats fun for you and fits with your idea of how the fleet should opperate (novas vs torps, light cruisers vs escorts, weapons vs lances vs ordinance, etc). Basically what do you want in your fleet? Of course none of this answers the original question about tactics :P.
On the fleet you listed your light cruisers backed up by swords can take a proactive approach to ordinance by seeking it out. Practice surrounding the waves with your swords so that they will be in base contact with one of the cruisers when it moves upand touches the wave. Use the nova to good effect by targeting his light cruisers and escorts, this has the added benifit of forcing him to close in order to get within your range. Use smaller torp salvos to take out larger enemy ones, your light cruisers should be good for this. once your within 60cm you have a really good shot of hitting his battleship with your nova so I would probably focus fire on it and hit it with that nova last, just make sure your ships are not too close! Im sure theres more that could be added for both the Tau and the other races.
-
Thank you once again for all the pertinent advice, both of you! I know every single freakin' newbie on the boards asks the same damn questions everytime, but you guys are awesome, and definitely help with the community growth :)!
On to another point: with faq 2010 rules, running small fleets like that double dictator / nova armageddon when is it worth squadroning? Or bracing, with such ordnance dependent vessels? And how you best use that fleet in general? Or more specifically, versus that tau list? His list is 2 x Emissaries (Non-grav hook version), 3 x Warden and Custodian with Ld 9 and extra reroll. Not sure about costing of tau vessels, but he claims the fleet is under 750pts, but I let him field the custodian anyway because i'm so sporting :P.
What's not so awesome is combined torp/bomber waves. Because of the resilience, the bomber strip CAP relatively unharmed and thus the massive torp salvoes always strike home. Any better way to deploy ordnance or escorts to protect cruisers?
Also, about that armageddon list...why that specific list? Is it the only one that allows that ship combo? And should I include an admiral? By my count, it only adds up to 695pts (705 if I throw in PRams for the hell of it).
-
Heya,
that Tau list :
Ld9 Kor'0 80pts
aun'el reroll 25pts
Custodian 330pts
3 Warden 90pts
2 Emissary 220pts
total: 745pts
Officially he can only have a Custodian per full 750pts... but ah well 5pts short ain't an issue to me.
'kay his Emissaries have front gunnery as strong as the IN Lunar broadside. But it has 5+ prow and 4 hits. They need to close so they are easy targets. Take them out. Easy shut down, but many guns drowned.
The wardens should be dealt with your torpedoes if you have the chance.
Now the Custodian is a beast. But here is essence. His fleet has:
6 attack craft markers max in game.
1 missile marker from Custodian
2 missile marker from the Emissaries
Your fighter priority is trying to intercept the Custodian missile wave, the emissaries wave are less issue.
Your gunnery should shoot at the Manta wave(s).
-
How much priority should I give to shooting those bomber waves? Is it worth firing (to use my sample list) 2 of my swords? Half? All of them? And on the question of torpedos, which I have never really used much yet, non-tau torps seem easy to avoid for mobile fleets outside of 30cm...how do you guys use them in these scenarios? And how do you make the custodian close?
-
Hey Folks!
So I'm the Tau/Eldar player in question.
I have a wealth of questions as well, but for Talos' thread I will simply provide a little bit of context from my side of the board. First thing to note, we played another game yesterday, which I came down to a couple failed ld checks on his side. He also fielded an Emperor for the first time, as he just finished it up (It's very nice and intimidating) so as to pit a battleship against mine, and to mitigate my bombers.
As Horizon said, my fleet:
Custodian w/Kor'o and Aun'el (2 RR)
3x Wardens
2x Emissaries (generally squadronned)
@Horizon I'm SO curious as to your assurance that I would move my Custodian up. until late in the game when the rest of my fleet falters and the 12 WB and 2 Lance is really required, I see no real advantage to endangering what is essentially the deciding factor of my fleet.
My general strategy is to semi-screen my Custodian with Wardens and Emissaries, while working the lighter ships into optimal positioning for a 1-2 turn brawl, then ususally a dropout, as they can't take much punishment. I can usually do enought damage to the majority of his fleet that my Battleship can wade in and mop up with relative impunity (obviously still being careful, and not an idiot).
I will start a new thread for the rest of my questions, but if you have any more questions about context or my particular strategies, feel free to ask!
Oh and last thing, until yesterday where I have to bomb pretty defensibly, using more than half my bays on CAP, I had never deployed fighters, using the emissariel torps to clear them.
-
Horizon can speak for himself , I think but I suspect it's because in a bigger game, unlike explorers who can't shoot squat the custodian becomes a waste of point if it not using all its weapon systems. Although welcome to the forums buddy ;D
-
Thanks man!
That makes sense, I guess. I haven't really seen that it's that overwhelming, but I guess once the IN fleet comes into it's own, I'll need to maximise everything, caution be damned.
It seems really conterintuitive to have to move up my carrier into to enemy range, especially whe my carrier is more fragile than the average. Obviously the explorer, despite being a bettleship stays the hell away from the enemy ranks, but I'm not sure if the damage output ofthe Custodians guns outweight he potential need to BFI and manoeuvre, which would be terrible.
I would still like to hear from vets who may be able expand a bit, if you're out there!
-
How much priority should I give to shooting those bomber waves? Is it worth firing (to use my sample list) 2 of my swords? Half? All of them? And on the question of torpedos, which I have never really used much yet, non-tau torps seem easy to avoid for mobile fleets outside of 30cm...how do you guys use them in these scenarios? And how do you make the custodian close?
If your shooting at ordinance it had better be because theres nothing else in range/ firearc. If you are going to be close enough to shoot him your most likely going to have passed his faster ordy or been able to intercept it with an escort group supporting one of your Endurances. Now if theres nothing else to shoot at use everything you have available that can fire, if all of your swords are in range then use them all, locked on!
Long range torps... Got really nerfed when they went to the faq rules but you can still use them to screen your fleet, the enemy is either going to move to avoid them or wast fighter/ torps on taking them out. I would say just save them tho to use against incoming torp salvos or waves with fighters supporting bombers, dont waste them on individual fighters.
Last, I wouldnt make the Custodian close, why would you want it to? You should be happy he is willing to stay back and take as many nova blasts as possible :P. Ultimately tho you are going to have to move in closer, you just want to make sure you have as good an advantage as you can. I would even say if you have a chance to hit them by using aaf you should be alright, so long as you can atleast force the Custodian to brace. He should be attempting to get you lined up in his forward arc due to the layout of his weapons so i would try to get beside him, his Custodian can only bring half weapons to bear then and the light cruisers although able to turn and bring their full weapons to bear wont be able to lock on if they do so. Even if they do lock on your only looking at 3wb and 1 lance from them per side.
-
Did I say it should close? It doesn't need to. But if it does when the lines get closer it needs to be prow on to use its guns.
If the Custodian stays far away on abeam line, then there is nothing wrong with going on AAF to get by their engines. If you are passed the Tau front arc it suddenly gets less scary.
Shoot at ordnance waves with everything if nothing else is near. Otherwise you will have to read the tactical situation. Is the wave supported by more (missile strike)? Are their enemy ships near which will harass your fleet?
-
Also, about that armageddon list...why that specific list? Is it the only one that allows that ship combo? And should I include an admiral? By my count, it only adds up to 695pts (705 if I throw in PRams for the hell of it).
the armageddon battle cruiser is only available in some list. the armageddon list will also allow you to field 2 dictators and 2 armageddon bc at larger points game.
i would squadron the dictators together to benefit from one reload ordnance roll at the higher leadership of the two ships. this will reload both attack crafts and torpedoes.
the armageddon with a nova cannon would never benefit from reload ordnance, thus should not be squadroned with the dictators.
-
That seems quite sound, fracas. Although squadroning two of the only three ships in a force seems like it would make it an incredibly difficult choice as to when to brace for impact. Also, is it worth combining salvoes on capital ships? Such as to make mega death salvoes? I would assume against other capitals it is potentially worth it, if not against escorts, but what do you all think of that?
-
Combining salvos leaves you vulnerable to return fire so i try to avoid it unless i can line up multiple hits. Im also loath to squadron capitols in small matches, luckly you can roll for leadership before you decide to squadron tho so if you end up with decent leadership on both id run them seperatly.
-
it depends on your playing style. i tend not to brace very much so the combined attack is worthwhile to me.
if you look at it, the main advantage to squadroning is for offense, and thus i want it to count.
-
Very true...so what about the offense itself? Presumably you would keep them close to each other to maximize their strengths (standard IN) but do you combine ordinance on to one target? And against ordinance heavy fleets in particular, do you send out a lot of fighters, or torp/bomb the living s*** out of a single target at a time?
-
Ordnance attacks are best combined with torpedoes fighters bombers
I would apply enough attacks to cripple then move on
Against enemy ordnances I would still play aggressive: launch fighters from one dictator to take out fighters escorting bombers, and use escorts with 2+ turrets in base to base (+1 turret each) to take out torpedoes I cannot avoid and I couldn't take out from shooting (I would only shoot at them if there is nothing else better to shoot at).
-
Very interesting...I have heard people mention firing a Nova's to clear out particularly large ordinance waves, but this seems wasteful in small games, at least. What are your thoughts on that? Also, 4 AC wave, how many bombers/fighters? 3:1 ratio would be my assumption.
-
Against 2turrets
3B 1F causes 5.5 hits on average
2B 2F causes 5 hits on average
Against 3turrets
3B 1F causes 2.5 hits on average
2B 2F causes 3 hits on average
Average not median
I normally go with 2&2
-
Thank you very much, fracas! Always nice to see a number crunch. As i'm currently playing tau, 2:2 seems appropriate. What do you think of mars BC? I tried it and it seemed quite underwhelming, frankly.
-
Novas work better in large games with multiple cannons. I wouldnt take a mars in less than 750 amd even then its iffy.
-
Yeah, the current NC is to weak on its own (yet I still employ 1 in 1500pts IN or AdMech... I am so weird... 8) )
The Mars is okay- ish. A real support carrier opposed to the attack carrier the Dictator is.
-
Do you use standard 2010 faq nova? In my limited experience, the nova seems underwhelming on its own. What size of game board does everyone typically play on? The sizes in the book are quite small, which limits the nova cannon even more.
-
4x6 or 4x8 typically ive not had any problems with the sizes in the scenarios theyre pretty spot on for what the scenario requires.
-
Hmmm...that is actually quite a bit larger than what we were playing with (cruiser class size, which is 60cm by 90cm +starting zones, which we were ruling as 20cm), as there is no real mention of boards as large as what you are suggesting...although I believe you, page reference would be ideal. That will certainly improve my nova's ;D. Length wise or width wise deployment? Or, if both are options, what do you recommend for IN?
-
Hi,
we play on 120cm x 180cm.
Ideal for up to 2500 points in my opinion.
Page reference:
BFG rulebook
advanced rules
battlefield
page: 40
-
Thanks a bunch, horizon...That should give me a lot more nova's ;D. Also, thinking of purchasing some grand cruisers, they seem decent in faq 2010 and really good with BFG:R revisions. What is the common consensus on these in the IN? Are they worth their points value with either profile? Also, I have read of people using them in pairs as pseudo-battleships, does anybody know anything about that?
-
Hey,
The Chaos Repulsive Grand cruiser is pretty good, a tad slow for the Chaos fleet but a good addition to the IN arsenal (eg with the right fleet list etc).
The IN Vengeance is good.
The IN Excorcist is good.
2 Vengeances is a good concept, add an Emperor BB and you have an awesome 'abeam' line.
Vaaish uses this setup.
They work well in pairs, yes.
The Avenger is great in concept.
the BFG:R variants are... ehm .. don't remember, better priced I guess. haha. But the FAQ2010 Vengeance/Excorcist are good already.
-
Avenger gains 4 battery a side and costs only 200, veangence has its weapons at 45cm and costs 230 and the exorcist cost 260 and has 3/3 launch bays! I get the impression AC are slightly weaker in BFG:R, however, so maybe this is more balanced. Do people run dictators at 220 or 210? Maybe I will buy a pair of veangence for resilient line boats...Ok, so what about falchions? They seem good defensively against ordnance, but are they better than just grabbing cobra's and swords?
-
Ah yeah, I didn't agree with 3/3 launch bays on the Excorcist. But, alas, the majority decided.
Avenger change was good-ish change.
We run Dictator at 220pts.
Falchions have a place as you say. It is Cobra/Sword combo but wastes less torpedo when anti-AC is the operative. If you field may AC the Sword is a better choice.
-
The real gem of BFG-R grand cruisers is the addition of varients with additional weapons emplacements. If everyone playing the revised rules then go ahead and use their pricing but if not then of course you shouldnt.
-
How do you use dictators in fleets? My experience with them has been pretty poor, and they seem to have mediocre offensive capabilities for a really hefty price tag. Am I not using these right? How do other players field them, and how are they played?
-
Actually... the Dictator is a real attack carrier. A must even as it doesn't have long range weaponry like the other carriers. Now it is expensive, yes, but it is also a pretty unique vessel in the Imperial (and even Chaos) arsenal:
It can do a synergy attack on its own:
Torpedoes & Bombers from one ship in attack run is quite good. Turrets can only shoot one of them down.
Also imagine the AAF shotgun of this vessel as AAF does not half ordnance capabilities.
-
How do you use dictators in fleets? My experience with them has been pretty poor, and they seem to have mediocre offensive capabilities for a really hefty price tag. Am I not using these right? How do other players field them, and how are they played?
BH is right. One of the main tactics of the IN is the AAF shotgun approach. You line up your fleet as close to the opponent as possible, facing directly toward him if he's facing you or a little in front of him if he's abeam, then go AAF on turn one with everything and fire your torps and AC. That covers an average of 54cm (bombers) to 64cm (torpedoes). This is often enough to get a first turn hit in. AAF does not halve ordnance. Therefore the Dictators will be able to launch all 4 AC and 6 torpedoes. They will have to spend the next turn reloading, but it's not like they had a lot of firepower to lock-on with anyway. By turn 2 the IN are usually either in the enemy lines or perilously close to it, at which stage the Dictators can generally pick a target and shotgun it with both torpedoes and bombers. Oh, the term shotgun regarding ordnance refers to the act of launching them and attacking with them in the same turn, before the opponent has an opportunity to intercept them with his own AC, thus bypassing the enemy's strongest defence.
-
It's probably just my inexperience then ;)...I find it really hard to line up torpedo salvoes, although my only opponents so far have been tau and eldar, which does skew my perception a little. Do the other movement specials not affect ordnance either (burn retros, come to a new heading)?
-
Ya the only thing that affects ordinance is brace for impact and crippled. You shouldnt have much difficulty hitting Tau with this but they can do it back to you ;), eldar on the other hand....
I personally dont care for aaf, i perfer to turtle and close slowly but its all subjective. Either way once your in 30 the Dictator can really put a hurting on. For the points tho id rather have an Emperor than two Dictators in most fleets, especially one with assault boats.
-
It's probably just my inexperience then ;)...I find it really hard to line up torpedo salvoes, although my only opponents so far have been tau and eldar, which does skew my perception a little.
Lining up vs Tau should not be a problem as they run on the same speed as the Imperial Navy.
And do remember the fact torpedos are fired in the front arc and not straight on only. So you can give an angle on it when firing.
-
It's probably just my inexperience then ;)...I find it really hard to line up torpedo salvoes, although my only opponents so far have been tau and eldar, which does skew my perception a little.
Lining up vs Tau should not be a problem as they run on the same speed as the Imperial Navy.
And do remember the fact torpedos are fired in the front arc and straight on only. So you can give an angle on it when firing.
I think you ment to say they could be fired in the front arc and NOT straight on only.
-
ahem, correct.
-
The problem against tau is not so much firing solutions as much as the fact that I have to use my ordnance so defensively. Oddly enough, it's the small emmisary torps that have caused the most damage; one particular game I took not only a boatload in general, but a 2 strength salvo inflicted 2 hits and 2 criticals >:( I never seem to get a chance to actually fire ordnance at them...but maybe I play too cautiously against them? I have begun to wonder if maybe it's worth getting blasted in the face with AAF to get to grips right away...
-
getting close with Tau is always a good idea. Past their prow they lose most of their firepower.
-
So take a more agressive stance with your ordinance. Launch bombers and send them after those emissarys, it might make them a bit more cautious with their ordinance. Even if they only launch the minimum fighters to intercept you have weakened their attack waves wich should make them more manageable. As for their torpedoes point your prow to them, hit the big red button (aaf) and pray for the best :D. Once your close to them your broadsides should even things out a bit.
-
I will try these techniques, but I get the feeling I will enjoy my torpedoes more when I play against chaos. I will try the dictator some more; it is one of the few ships that has completely failed me so far, but to be fair I have only fielded it against eldar in a 750pt game, so it can still redeem itself. The other two are my lance dauntless, the pair of which has only hit 2 in two rounds of prow firing so far (as in 2 hit from 12 lance shots...ouch) and my mars (which, to be fair, was played in some of m first games, and I always forgot to reload the poor thing...). I have heard mention that mars are better in pairs, but that seems like a lot of points for a support ship (i.e. at least 540 without option out of a 1500pt list). Also find that the mars is a bullet soak. And not in the good way, I mean it eats bullets and the DIES.
-
Against tau wouldn't armoured prose be a problem? I know the would be for me.
-
Not sure what you mean but If you mean the tau deflectors, then yeah they are a problem :D. If you mean imperial prows they are less relevant because they have to expose themselves to maximise their firepower, whereas fleet like tau get to present their most armored side and apply most of their weapons simultaneously.
-
I meant both, and specifically for closing torpedoes.
-
Mars is actually one of the few IN ships i believe can go by itself, but it does do better paired. Novas should be taken in multiples tho, one is meh. Mars Dominator Gothic is a great base to work off of.
Eldar are designed to make Dictators look stupid, the only thing they have going for them is the weapons batteries which are not strong enough or ranged enough to be useful. The Mars is your budget carrier of choice here, better ranged weapons with the ability to negate the holofield - (all be it at a steep price) and novas dont totally suck (especially when ignoring the idiotic faq rule that holofields can save against the blast) lances are still crap but they make BMs. Mars is also only 20pts more than an Eclipse which is groovy. Torpedoes are much better against 5+ or lower armor so ya Chaos make good targets.
-
Hey Talos,
Imperials exposing the lower side armour is not that worrying:
1) lances do not care about 5+ or 6+ anyway
2) look on the gunnery chart to see how many dice are rolled vs 6+ closing and 5+ abeam. Then some math... ;)
Andrew,
Oberon & Emperor & Excorcist are even better. ;)
-
Duh, for got the Exo, which is awesome. I wouldnt really consider the BB's as your budget option tho although an Emperor is awesome if you can take one, 10 60cm weapons batteries in a 270 arc... I belive Talos is running mostly 750 games tho iirc?
-
You are indeed correct, Chris, although this is out of necessity rather than choice, as my most common gaming partner only has 2 fleets at 750pts right now, although I believe that ThanAquilon is just about to finish an additional 750pts of eldar, which although I hate the pointy eared gits will allow bigger games, and I have been told imperials do a lot better in larger games where there internal synergy is more pronounced.
@horizon Not Mathing very well right now, but if I'm reading this correct you are more likely to score a hit closing vs. 6+ than abeam vs. 5+...never would have thought closing was worth so much more than +1 armor, I admit...