Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: vincent on September 12, 2012, 06:15:09 AM
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To those interested, here is a list of links to french houserules.
Unfortunately that is in french ;)
I'll update this when new material is made available.
WME is French Community variant of WMA, with fantasy rules. It goal is to "start from WMA, add fantasy, and then allow french community to change/add the rules as the community see needs for, keeping them compatible with WM official army lists". It no longer contains army lists and rules in the same document because most player found it cumbersome. We also publish a set of army lists which are the official french community lists; some of those list had undergone some changes (several single-stand monster are now cheaper, most flyer units are a bit more expensive, HE shot bonus changed a bit, etc.)
* WME Rules latest version (ebook) (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/WME_Regles_latest.pdf.html)
* WME Armies latest version (printable) (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/WME_Armees_latest.pdf.html)
WMMF (deprecated) is French fantasy version of WMA (all in a single document: rules updated with latest erratas, items, magic, artillery, army lists and so on). WMMF design strategy is to "expand WMA by adding it - unchanged when possible - the missing fantasy rules from original WM". Note that WMMF is now deprecated and replaced by WME
* WMMF latest version (ebook) (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/WMMF_Regles_latest_ebook.pdf.html)
* WMMF latest version (printable) (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/WMMF_Regles_latest_printable.pdf.html)
* WMMF siege rules latest version (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/WMM_Siege_VF.pdf)
Soul Storm Campaign (2010-2011) material:
* Campaign rules, inc. profiles for campaign characters and units (Be'lakor, Teclis, Nagas, Repurgators (Witch Hunters)...) and Ind army list (with Mumaks) (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/tempete_ames/TdA_Regles.pdf)
* Introduction Scenario: Bolgasgrad siege (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/tempete_ames/TdA_Scenario_Bolgasgrad.pdf).
* Scenario: Blood for Be'lakor (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/tempete_ames/TdA_Scenario_Du_Sang_Pour_Belakor_v4.pdf)
* Scenario: The Great Ritual (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/tempete_ames/TdA_Scenario_Le_Grand_Rituel_v1_4.pdf)
* Scenario: An unreliable ally (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/tempete_ames/TdA_Scenario_Un_Allie_Imprudent_v2.pdf)
Scourge or Magic Campaign (2011-2012):
* Campaign rules, inc. revamped monster profiles (cheaper and more faire/balanced from my point of view), fulcrum rules, epic magic rules, new minor sorceres profiles, updated sorcerers profiles for all races and scenario to play with fulcrums and invocated monsters (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/fleau_de_magie/FdM_ReglesCampagne_v3-3.pdf)
* One of the player deck of ressources and strategic cards (each player had its own) (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/fleau_de_magie/Set_FdM_Paris_Vincent.pdf)
Wrath of Nagash Event (2013):
* Nagash Wrath Event (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/fureur_de_nagash/WM_FdN_Regles_v_1_0_ebook.pdf)
* 1st set of scenarios (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/fureur_de_nagash/WM_FdN_BataillesBoleroMacabre_v_1_1_ebook.pdf)
* 2nd set of scenario (http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/fureur_de_nagash/WM_FdN_BataillesTempeteMacabre_v_1_0_ebook.pdf)
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Thank you so much!!, a lot of knowledge in these pages, if i have time some day i'll try to provide your work to the spanish community (of course with the corresponding references and acknowledgments).
Il s'agit d'or pur! ^_^
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Thanks for sharing, very intersting and congratulation for so profesional work!
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Thank you :)
FYI WMMF has just been updated to v3 with a better layout and some minor fixes.
Links above updated.
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I must learn French!
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Thank you, Vincent!!, i see that this document is evolutioning day by day!
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It's all in french! I failed french in High school... a couple of centuries ago. I can remember some just enough to confuse me. Any chance we could get this in english? Please, Pretty please. I took a look at the campaigns and both (just from the glance that I took) seem to be done very nice.
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Could you tell us which of the ancients rules you added to Warmaster? So you dont need to translate the whole thing. :)
Or is it all ancients plus the magic phase?
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WMMF rules are built from Ancient plus:
* Magic (phase, sorcerers, spells, items)
* Monster rules
* Flyers rules
* Heavy chariots are 2x4cm instead of 4x4cm
* Artillery rules updated with fantasy version (shooting angles and shooting over-head are different)
We also removed all ancient-specific rules (skirmishers, warband, elephant, scythe chariot...)
That was far easier to start from Ancient and add the few missing rules for fantasy than doing the reverse ;)
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Thanks! I hope I find someone willing to test these rules as it sounds like it could add alot more depth to WM. :)
Do you use stuff like the countercharge from the medieval books aswell or just the plain WMA rules?
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Thank you for summarizing, Vincent, it's very useful for non-frenchspeakers!!.
How does the rule of supporting before removing the killed stands work in Warmaster Fantasy?.
Do you think it's unbalanced regarding the armies with cheaper infantry units?.
I'm not totally sure of that change :-(
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Thanks! I hope I find someone willing to test these rules as it sounds like it could add alot more depth to WM. :)
Do you use stuff like the countercharge from the medieval books aswell or just the plain WMA rules?
Yes, it does add a lot.
WMMF is plain WMA.
Some player are using WM Medieval with couter-charge but I've not tested it and the consensus is currently based on WMA rather than WM Medieval. I will test it some day and who knows, maybe next version of WMMF will include it ;)
Thank you for summarizing, Vincent, it's very useful for non-frenchspeakers!!.
How does the rule of supporting before removing the killed stands work in Warmaster Fantasy?.
Do you think it's unbalanced regarding the armies with cheaper infantry units?.
I'm not totally sure of that change :-(
You are welcome ;)
No it doesn't unbalance the game. In fact it does re-balance the infantry vs knights game without unbalancing other aspects. You could suspect that it is unbalance with a) very string infantry (chaos warriors becoming unstoppable e.g.) or b) very cheap infantry (giving too much of an advantage for low cost) but the 3-round limit re-balance both perfectly it perfectly, and by the way, bad infantry is alway bad ;) I've played with/against Chaos, Dwarven, Lizardmen, Skavens and Tomb Kings where you can find a lot of very string and/or very cheap infantry and never found balance a problem with this rule.
And I can say that all french players I know who tested WMMF now plays with it rather than with plain old WM just because it is more balance and as more depth without increased complexity.
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From a rules point of view, the only rules that is missing in WMA by comparison with WM are:
A/ is the ability for infantry to evade through other friendly unit. In France most people where not even aware this rule existed. The only armies where I find this rule really usefull are Lizardmen, Skaven and Demons where you have very cheap infantry that you can use to screen youe "strong but fragile" one: you can form a brigade with the screening unit in front and evade through friendly unit by initiative to allow strong unit to charge by initiative.
B/ The possibility for supports not to be part of combat and block 1st-rank. This could be an important rule for the same armies are point A because if you weak screen-unit are engaged you don't want the whole brigade to loose the combat and would prefer to sacrifice them (wich make sens for screen-units).
Both rules are now being playtested in France so that we can consider adding them to WMMF later.
(for rule B, by default the WMA rule applies, that is supports are part of combats. But the player can announce after charge move has been done that supports stay unengaged; they will no longer support so they don't provide combat resolution bonus and are not part of the combat at all).
Because a lot of french player find the flyer a bit too easy to use for their efficiency (a 100cm move to block retreat is really easy and very effective) we are as well playtesting with the following flyers rules modifications
C/ Unit flyers move is limited to 60cm (heros still move 100cm)
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Very interesting this topic is...
Though i haven't understood point B). Are you meaning that you can decide not to apply the support modifiers in a combat?, which is the profit?. If these units don't support the combat it supposed that they are not in the combat but... I don't understan "block 1st rank", sorry for my question O_o
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Very interesting this topic is...
Though i haven't understood point B). Are you meaning that you can decide not to apply the support modifiers in a combat?, which is the profit?. If these units don't support the combat it supposed that they are not in the combat but... I don't understan "block 1st rank", sorry for my question O_o
In Warmaster supporting units could block retreat; you decide it when the combat has been resolved.
In some situation that could be a good option to sacrifice 1st rank to avoid losing combat and having 2nd rank involved in a combat you would avoid.
Example: 1st rank is composed of Goblins, 2nd and 3rd rank are composed of Orcs. You probably don't want that the 2nd rank of Orcs are part of the combat because you will most probably loose it and if you loose it the pursuer will probably flank you, etc.
In Warmaster Ancient you no longer have this option.
It is not a real issue in Ancient since sacrifiable troops are skirmishers and would most probably dodge the charge by the way.
In Fantasy sacrifiable troops are not skirmishers, so that could be an issue.
Well, most players don't see a real difference, but some do ;) I do, mainly because I'm playing Orcs a specific way. Some Skaven or Khemri players could do as well.
So we are playtesting this rule to see if we include it in WMMF.
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Thank you very much, now i see the light :-), i am very tired today and i only understand single orders XD
Your arguments absolutelly convince me!, because i see a hard testing work behind your rules.
Just informing you about my intention in W-Acolytes (our warmaster spanish forum that you can see on my sign) is trying to use the WAB core rules with WM army lists in the same way that french rules ^_^
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But with A) There is the problem that units evading through friendly units also confuse them while doing so, dont they?
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No. They get confused 8)
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I downloaded the rules. I can't read very much french, sorry, I just don't have a mind for languages. I did however flip through the pages. It is put together very nice. There are in my opinion, I didn't see a siege section or ships or some of the other stuff that is in the main rulebook. Yes that is my opinion, I an not saying that you guys and girls haven't done a great job, you have, you have done a fantastic job. I personally woulike to see the rules from Warmunster 2 in there as well...... long story short. When I print off my rules again, I don't want to have to print off 6 documents just for one rule book. Anyways I am drifting off topic here. Sorry. You all have a heck of a job on the rule books and the two campaigns. They look very professional.
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Thank you for the comments guys :)
@Kane:
You are right, a single document is better.
But time is short and work takes time. So we had to create a single document what is used 99% by french community and without that extra 1% that takes like 30% of the effort... And that 99% is core-rules plus army lists.
French players don't play with ship rules, play sieges very rarely and not always with the same rules (WM original rules, WMA Medieval extension rules, custom-rules...). Adding them to WMMF is a lot of efforts for low value. Maybe later ;) FYI we have WMA Mediavel siege rules translated and extended for Fantasy (flyers and magic) and with rules slightly changed (the original rules are good but the support rules are unbalanced in some situations), I've added a link to this.
Scenarii are missing, definitely, and will be added later.
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Hi, is Scourge or Magic Campaign (2011-2012) still active in 2013? and is the flag [FMD]-scenarios in warmaster.fr forum?
another question, is wrath of Nagash an event for 2013 or a campaing?
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Hi, is Scourge or Magic Campaign (2011-2012) still active in 2013? and is the flag [FMD]-scenarios in warmaster.fr forum?
another question, is wrath of Nagash an event for 2013 or a campaing?
Hi :)
Scourge of Magic was a 2011-2012 campaign. It is over.
Wrath of Nagash is a mini-campaign (shorter, less events, less rules) and is still ongoing until end of mai.
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Updated to add Nagash Wrath Event (2013) material.
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Hi Vincent,
I just read through the first few chapters and did spot a few things in the latest version of the rules that is not in WMA (at least now where I searched for them):
- Enveloping charge: if a unit charges another unit in the flank and this charged unit is in line then the charging unit has the option to envelope during the charge move.
- Units with 360* vision: apparently they can only use the front and the back to shoot, not the flanks. I guess this is a house rule as well? I get the point for infantry units but I don't get it for cavalry such as empire pistoliers. Their flank is bigger than the front so this rule seems somewhat disadvantageous for them.
- Shooting: an entire stand's front should see the target unit if it wants to shoot. Otherwise the unit cannot shoot. This is probably to avoid cascading shooters. I didn't spot that in the Ancients rules either.
I certainly see the point in these rules - and can very well imagine how they came to be. Maybe it's interesting to share them with the community as well?
I only got round to printing the rules out now, let alone translating them. So this will really become a long-term project :(
Kind regards,
Jo
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Those are not community rules but the WMA amendments. See http://www.ricks-warmaster.com/ricks_updates-variants01.htm
:)
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Whoa that enveloping rule is a real game changer?
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Not really.
It is useful mostly useful for skirmishers flanking normal infantry (because they have low Att). It could be nice also for strong infantry flanking other infantry. But often your prefer not to envelop and keep the supports since it is more reliable.
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Those are not community rules but the WMA amendments. See http://www.ricks-warmaster.com/ricks_updates-variants01.htm
:)
OK thanks. Again these french rules are a great piece of work!
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Hi there,
I have another small question on the french rules. I did not find the rules on how a unit should evade during the initiative move. Is this still "directly away from the enemy" as in the basic rules or has this part been left out on purpose?
or maybe I missed it?
Thanks,
Jo
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Actually this has been removed from the Ancient rules (IMO) because of the Skirmish rules.
WMF design decision was: "add missing fantasy rules on top of WMA, but do not change WMA rules and do not change WM rules added to WMA neither".
So, when building WME the evade rule has not been added since it would have break that design decision.
Noe that in the meantime we decided to change the design decision to "build a french-community set of fantasy rules derived from WM and WMA, where community could take the liberty to change existing rules if the community needs or want".
WME was born (we changed the name to make the design change obvious).
WME is here: http://www.brimarx.com/pub/wm/WME_Regles_latest.pdf.html
WME is actually has the evade rule back, but we also modified some of the WM initial rules. So far we impacted flyers only by 1/ restricting move to 60cm and 2/ restricting flyers charge to charging unit they see at the beginning of their move.
Rgds.
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I updated the initial topic to link WME Rules and Armies and explain the move from WMMF to WME.
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We played a game using the french house rules last week. it was 2000pts of Vampire Counts vs Witch Hunters. We stopped well into the night although that had more to do with a slow pace of playing.
Overall I was optimistic about the rules. Quite some things are improved like support. The limit on the number of combat rounds was also interesting. It is clear that infantry becomes a lot more interesting with these rules which is a good thing - especially when playing with Witch hunters and being really poor on cavalry.
Next weekend we will give these rules a go in 3 more games - hopefully I have the time to take some pictures and write a battle report.
Jo
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Found this topic just now. Looks interesting and very good work on evolving Warmaster fantasy :)
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Glad to see this is of some help :)
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Hi all,
As promised I'm back with some feedback on the rules after a few more games.
Overall the feeling of our group was that all the proposed game rule changes make for a better, more 'realistic' game. There wasn't a single rule we found to be a step in the wrong direction. The biggest impact was caused by:
- support being counted before removing casualties.
- combat being limited to only 2 rounds.
- no charge bonus when advancing.
- enveloping charges.
- infantry being able to pursue cavalry.
But we did have the feeling that the point costs of units might have to be rebalanced. This was especially the case for a battle of cavalry-heavy high elves versus a vampire count horde. At the end of the game the elves were a bit frustrated since nothing could stop the oncoming flood of undead.
After that game we did a short simulation to see whether things were still balanced. We had a unit of silver helms (110 points) charge a brigade of undead in the flank. The brigade was one unit of skeletons and one unit of zombies - so 65 points in total.
We concluded that the silver helms simply can't cut through the undead brigade in 2 combat rounds. It would hurt the unit severely - but not destroy it. If the unit would then remain in contact after the second round then the initiative would go to the undead player who could easily send in another brigade of undead. With the flanking charge and the additional support the high elves would not survive for long and as such would end up dead. So a unit of 110 can't destroy a 65 points brigade even in the best of circumstances.
It is clear that these rules promote the use of infantry. The infantry heavy armies (vampire counts and dwarfs) had clear victories over the cavalry heavy ones in all 4 battles. I'm not saying this is entirely due to these rule changes but they do have an impact on the game.
Did you garçons et filles think about rebalancing the point values? That seems to be an enormous task however. Do the French players field a lot of cavalry or are you also favoring the infantry heavy armies? And how do you deal with large infantry brigades - especially Vampire Counts where you can't simply shoot off supporting units?
Thanks,
Jo
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Great feedback, thx :)
Neither me nor the players who provided/provide feedback found that the knights need a rebalancing.
We find that with those rules Knights no longer are no-brainers; they now need careful and proper usage but are devastating if and when properly used (flanking, combined charge, etc.).
We have a couple of players with cavalry-heavy armies (and played a couple myself) and they are still pretty dangerous. I've seen lot of games won with knights charges, but rarely with massive front-charge.
I don't know the UK meta-game and cannot assess any differences ;)
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I don't know the UK meta-game and cannot assess any differences ;)
Jo is in Flanders, and we KNOW that the French (knights) always underestimate their Northern neighbours...... 8)
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;D ;D ;D
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;D