Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Talos on September 20, 2012, 07:20:17 PM
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I will repeat: what is the deal with battleship?
Although I play imperial and thus have limited general play experience, battleships seem like an odd bunch; they are quite resilient for their point value, but are really slow and don't really pack a lot punch. I have an emperor, for instance and I never really consider it to be worth it when I am building a list. It just seems to be a bullet soak. The apocalypse is either rubbish or pretty good depending on what rules you are using, the retribution is either under powered or quite good depending if you use long range or high power batteries, and the oberon seems to be just a cruiser and a half glued together like a freaky science experiment.
When is a battleship a good choice? And how closely should it be supported? I wonder whether the battleship should be chosen to cover weakness' in my fleet, or exploit its strengths?
Thanks a lot, veterans. Your illumintaion will prove invaluable, I am sure.
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Later more but for now, regarding Imperial battleships:
Emperor = awesome
Retribution = poor gunnery but same speed as the fleet (a Retribution + 2 Dictators is a good steam roller core).
Oberon = pay 20pts for an allround 60cm range upgrade. go go samurai. As it stands it ain't bad but lacks range for a carrier.
Apocalyspse = coolest concept, faq2010 luckily it improved. My IN flagship because.
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I have read about a lot of people that use retribution BFG:R style, as this was what it what supposed to be, based on its flavor role: battery 18 but 45cm range. Line breaker battleship. This seems pretty cool, but I do really like the apocalypse...I just wouldn't know where to use it. Since my favorite IN is armageddon w/nova, the idea of a pair of them flanking an apocalypse makes me want to drool...
FAQ 2010 effectively increases its range to 45cm when locked on, or 46-60 with engine crit (but no damage), correct? Does this not make it really sluggish? That was a problem when I ran the emperor.
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Yeah, the 45cm strenght 18 Retribution is a lot better in what its purpose is.
15cm speed vessels are slower yes, so you need to adapt. The Emperor is a vessel which can go on a long supporting route (abeam to enemy) where turning is no issue. The ship offers a great amount of weapon batteries against enemy vessels coming on to it. Plus 8 launch bays is pretty good.
The Apocalypse, yes, it has more difficulties, but it is still a support ship. It goes prow on until it hits the 60-45cm range mark and then needs to turn, so you don't want a blastmarker on it. So early adapting to the enemy fleet movement is a key factor.
The engine critical can still be repaired and with a full healthy ship 12 dice should really give you one six to do so.
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Battleships are like any other ship in that their use depends upon how well optimised they are for their role. For example, the Retribution is fast enough to keep up with the rest of the fleet, has an armoured nose and a strong torpedo salvo. All these attributes optimise it for a role of line-breaker. That is, charge headlong at the enemy, on AAF, shotgun torpedoes when close enough and then get inside their formation on LO. What this sort of ship would require to make this possible is strong broadsides. What it really doesn't need in order to be able to perform this function is long range broadsides. Hence the original Retribution with its weak, long range, broadsides was poo. Conversely the BFG:R Retribution is much better.
An example of a different kind of BB is the support platform. This ship is meant to hang back to the rear of the formation, abeam of the enemy and support the rest of the fleet from afar. It relies for defence on shields, hits, turrets, facing, distance and friendly escorts. It doesn't need speed, but it does need weaponry that can reliably support the fleet from a fair way away. It doesn't need off-side firepower, but rather instead focusable firepower.
The Emperor battleship is a pretty good example of this second kind of BB. It has very weak off-side direct gunnery, so not much wastage there. It has 60cm range and can bring a reasonable amount of direct fire to bear on a single target. It has prodigious AC capacity and this, combined with its guns, allows to reach out and touch the enemy quite well. It does not pay points for unnecessary things like prow armour or speed. All in all, a good ship. It would be better if it had lances instead of WBs, due to long range penalties, and it would be nice to have a stronger dorsal armament at least, but for the price, it's a good ship.
So those 2 are examples of good BBs. For examples of bad BBs we need look no further than the Oberon and Apocalypse. The Oberon was originally a clone of the Emperor (back when the Emperor was 345 pts) except that it replaced 2 launch bays each side with 2 60cm lances and cost 10 pts cheaper. This meant that, compared to the Emperor, it lost 4 AC and picked up only 2 lances (since the other 2 are off-side and ill-suited to the support role). This is a poor trade, but at least those lances don't suffer range issues and it was a bit cheaper. A decent alternative for the admiral that didn't like AC much, or usable as a fun alternative.
However, when the Emperor got its cost adjusted to 365 (ie, +20 pts), the Oberon got really shafted. Instead of having its cost increased to 355 pts, leaving it in the same comparative position as it was beforehand, the powers that be decided to instead reduce the range of its prow and dorsal weaponry to 45cm. This made it a support vessel with no range, ie, useless. Above 30cm roughly 9.5WBs are worth 2 lances. So this made the Emperor the better gunship in the 45-60cm range. This is ridiculous, given that the Oberon trades 4(!) AC in order to get that edge in firepower.
The other fail IN BB is the Apocalypse. Armoured prow, strong short-ranged broadsides and front fire arc only prow weapon makes this a line-breaker. But alas, this ship is far too slow to be usable in this role. Any canny opponent seeing an Apocalypse making straight for his lines will assuredly place a blast marker in contact so that it falls behind the rest of his fleet.
Of course, the Apocalypse does have the ability to fire at long range. With its slow speed it could be used as a support ship. However, its range is unreliable, depending as it does on a successful LO. You would, of course, be wanting to LO with your long range support gunship anyway, but the point is that should you fail the test, you would want to still be able to fire, not lose your full broadside fire simply because the enemy is too far away. Also, if you do happen to fire at a ship over 45cm away you lose 10cm from your already crappy speed. This isn't in itself bad, since you don't really want your support ships to go anywhere anyway, and most of the time the crit will be repaired before it even becomes an issue, but in a few rare instances your opponent will just have to put a BM in contact with the Apocalypse to turn it into a stationary target next turn. Support ships tend to rely upon aspect (amongst other things) for protection, and going from one of the best defensive aspects to the worst unexpectedly would really suck.
So crappy as a traditional line breaker and crappy as a traditional support ship. And to top it all off it has piss-weak dorsal guns. Well, despite all that, it's still usable, if only just. There are 2 ways to use it, one is to treat it like a large Dominator, though to get the most out of it in this role you'd need to take it in a NC fleet. It would still be better in this role if it had a BFG:R Retributions broadside and dorsal weapon load, so still not perfect.
The other way to use it is to have it come in at an angle, moving as fast as possible and locking on as she goes. This should give some broadside targets if the LO goes well as well as some targets of opportunity for the NC. In the latter stages of a game it's even possible she'll end up breaking their lines and get to fire both broadsides. Meh.
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Very pertinent advice, you two! My regular opponents are not against dragginf BFG:R stuff into our games. Do your opinions and/or strategies revise with BFG:R versions (retribution with fp 18 @ 45cm and apocalypse dorsal batteries at 9str, with the lances having 60cm range and creating a blast marker in contact with it when they fire over 30cm). Also, although you have both given very sound tactical advice for the BB (why the hell is that battleship? it should be BS ;D) what kind of ships make the best protectors/offensive boosters for the various BBs? As in. what would you run to screen an apocalypse for instance? Or what ship would you pair it with to increase its effectiveness?
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BB and DD were introduced as a means of simplifying logistics, originally they were just B and D but as newer ship types came out which used 2 letter codes it was decided to switch all types to a two letter setup. Retribution is standup in revised, armageddons ok, the blastmarker is an improvement but it is still too slow for its roll as a line breaker and the nova and armor are wasted on a support ship, the model is plain ulgy imo too :/. I would rather have two Gothics or an Emperor.
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Not to derail the conversation at all, but would the oberon see play with strength 6 torpedoes (instead of prow batteries) and armored prow instead of Ld bonus, 60cm range at 365 points? Or would this still be too weak/too strong?
Also, same as how I have heard/seen lots of people use the BFG:R retribution batteries, I have heard/seen just as many use the 9 fp battery on the dorsal mount of the apocalypse. What do you guys think?
Do you kind folk screen your battleships with lighter vessesl or screen the lighter vessels with the battleship?
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Bah
BB are only worthwhile in 1500 pts games
Which won't happen often enough for most of us
I say go with the models you like but don't build a fleet around it
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Well the BFG:R version Retribution and Apocalypse are both my ideas, so I'm not likely to object to them. Well, the Apocalypse is mine, and I posited a Ret with 18WB@30cm which then got amended to 45cm (by Admiral d'Artagnan if my memory serves). The Ret was redesigned to more properly fulfill its role as a line-breaker and I would run in its intended role.
The BFG:R Apocalypse is far more usable than the official version for a few reasons. The extra dorsal firepower means it's not totally outgunned by a Ret (BFG:R) when up close. The consistent 60cm range on its guns makes it a reliable and potent support gunnery ship. Lastly, and significantly, the downside to shooting over 30cm is both palpable and yet not terrible. You gain reliability, firepower and consistency. You lose speed and shielding when you choose to fire over 30cm.
As for its use, I would likely angle it across my line towards the enemy to get broadside and NC shots at the same time. A NC, 6L and 9WB at 60cm is quite significant firepower for a support ship, probably the closest to Planet Killer levels that we can reasonably expect from a ship that's 140 pts cheaper.
The support required for a BB depends upon the ship and its role. For example, a Retribution doesn't need additional support, because it will already be in your main battle line. It already has support. An Emperor doesn't really need support due to its AC. This also applies to an Oberon, to a lesser degree. Anything that's likely to be able to manoeuvre into a position that can hurt either of these ships is likely to be quite susceptible to bombers and a-boats. An Apocalypse, however, does need support. As it's a slow ship it often finds itself isolated from the rest of the fleet, much like an Emperor or Oberon, but without AC to protect its rear it can find itself very vulnerable to a pack of BB killers. There are two basic support options for it. One, run a support carrier with it. This could be an Emperor, an Oberon, a Mars, Dominion or Exorcist. A Mars would be a good choice as it can add its lances to that of the Apocalypse as well as provide a second NC. An Oberon (BFG:R) would also be a decent choice, adding to the long range weapon platform theme. Of course, it would have to be a large game to support two BBs.
The other support option is a small squadron of Cobras sitting to the rear of your lines. Their job would be to jump out and maul any enemy escorts that get too close. This is the cheaper close support option and has the added benefit of not allocating any of your AC to BB protection duties.
As for the notion of torpedoes on the Oberon, this is a terrible idea. Torpedoes are for attack ships. Ships that you point at your enemy. Ships with high speed. This is not the Oberon. The Dictator is able to pull off torpedoes because it has 20cm speed (as well as the prow armour of course). The Dictator gives 6 torps and 4 AC for 220 pts (210 pts BFG:R). Trying to make an Oberon into an attack carrier is a bad idea. You would get 6 torps and 4 AC for 365 pts, and that's without the speed to make it work. Bad.
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I agree with Sigoroth on the Oberon idea.
@ Fracas,
we play a lot of 1500pts games so we tend to have a battleship as build point. I think the battleship choice effects the rest of the fleet. The choice means a battleship with carrier options or a gunnery battleship.
And, hey, at times I field battleships below 1500pts ;) (Desolator is a good one for this or the Custodian).
@ Andrew,
add that BB, CB, CA, DD, FF are also military/naval terms.
And you really think the Apocalypse model is ugly? Well, then you can always build it on a Retribution hull:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--_CB_fAe9l8/TmbiwoV-wpI/AAAAAAAACjI/VdMujv9psIo/s912/IMG_8048.JPG
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And you really think the Apocalypse model is ugly? Well, then you can always build it on a Retribution hull:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--_CB_fAe9l8/TmbiwoV-wpI/AAAAAAAACjI/VdMujv9psIo/s912/IMG_8048.JPG
Yup! And vice versa. If you want a Voss pattern Emperor just slap the right components on it and Bob's your uncle.
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@ Sigoroth, Horizon: Agreed on bashing of my own point...forgot about the slow speed/purpose changing. Try not to think less of me ;D...Just trying to think of some way to flesh out the oberon some more. As I read in a post somewhere, the oberon gains 2 lances vs. 4 AC, as it will never really get to fire both broadsides. Is there anyway to improve its well rounded nature without stepping on other roles? The only thing that springs to mind is a point reduction/reinstatement of 60cm, but presumably if the community wanted this it would have been revised at some point...
How far behind the battleship should protective escort lurk? And would falchions do the trick, or are the cobras better for the speed/ higher torpedo payload against escorts?
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Oberon with 20cm speed 6+ prow and 9 torps, 45cm range weapons. Id play with that all day long.
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@ AndrewChristlieb But would it need a price hike? Because that would make very much a line breaker, similar to retribution.
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Actually, community and Oberon = BFG:R (oH Paxor, when do we get THAT pdf? ;) )
355pts, all weaponry at 60cm.
= voted upon by community ;)
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BFG-R is an improvement, its still compeating with the Emperor for a support role tho and in that capacity the extra launch of the Emperor will win out with most players (and has so far as i have seen). Not to mention there are better ways to snag 60cm lances if thats what your needing.
An Oberon as i described would have to be pretty pricy. It would have nearly the same off side fire power as a Retribution at 45cm and the torp/launch synergy. Probably about the same as an Emperor and playtest it out from there. This would put it up against the Retribution instead of the Emperor and seems pretty comparable in usefulness to the BFG-R Ret.
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You need to assess the Oberon on its own. In its role it was a vessel that did very long range patrols on its own. Its mixed weaponry is a given then plus torpedoes difficult to maintain on an extended duty, thus batteries being more cost effective.
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True, but game play doesnt represent the fluff :/. Now if there was a maximum of one per list and no other restrictions, that would represent its fluff and make it a much more attractive choice as is.
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It is still a good choice.
With an Emperor your cruisers will be more gunnery and no other carrier is needed.
With an Apocalypse or Retribution your cruisers will feature more carriers (at least 2 in most cases).
With an Oberon you can have a more varied cruiser list, eg Mars, Dictator or Excorcist (very good company!).
An all 60cm range Oberon 10pts less then an Emperor is a great alternative imo.
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It is still a good choice.
With an Emperor your cruisers will be more gunnery and no other carrier is needed.
With an Apocalypse or Retribution your cruisers will feature more carriers (at least 2 in most cases).
With an Oberon you can have a more varied cruiser list, eg Mars, Dictator or Excorcist (very good company!).
An all 60cm range Oberon 10pts less then an Emperor is a great alternative imo.
yes you can build your fleet around your intended battleship
but this might restrict you in smaller games when you are not taking the battleship
i'd suggests building a take all comer fleet without the battleship
then add the battleship for flavor to emphasize either gunnery or launch bays ... or both
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yes you can build your fleet around your intended battleship
but this might restrict you in smaller games when you are not taking the battleship
i'd suggests building a take all comer fleet without the battleship
then add the battleship for flavor to emphasize either gunnery or launch bays ... or both
This is how i usually go about doing a campaign list. Building so that i know what i will have for a 500, 750, 1k, 1.5k and then using the extra for subsitutes. Im not such a big fan of battleships but if i were to take one it would probably be to sub out for some other ships. In a one off game tho i think that knowing the point level would change how i build, if its a 1500 i might take a BB and depending on if i do then it will affect how i build the fleet. If its under 1500 then it depends on what im playing as, Tau for instance should almost always have an Explorer/ Custodian imo.
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I build my fleets allround, fluff based and aimed at 1500pts. Battleships are cool focus points for me.
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I think I'm pretty much with Horizon on this one; the battleship is pretty much what shapes the make-up of the rest of the fleet, at least when it comes to the IN. The problem I run into is that the IN's cruiser carriers are fairly expensive for what they do, making any BB other than the Emperor a tough choice! As for the point about this causing issues for smaller point games when the BB is not present, the fairly low expense and/or magnetizing options for the IN and Chaos make this less of a concern as I see it.
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As fracas said tho it can still be done the other way around, especially if you usually run at 750-1k and only do 1.5k occasionally. For instance a 1k fleet list can look like: Lunar Lunar Dictator Dominion 3x Swords Fleet Admiral. Fairly straight forward with a good mix of weapons, lances, and launch bays. This will allow you to go either launch or ordinance heavy @1.5k by adding say a Retribution and four Firestorms or an Emperor and 4 Falchions (the Dominion would be taken as reserve in this example and the Falchions of course add to the ordinance output). You could go for more of everything too if your so inclined by taking an Oberon an adding a squad of Cobras and a couple more Swords.
Its kind of like going around your elbow to get to your... ahem, anyway the options you get by taking this route can be quite intersting and rather fluffy. Your base fleet will of course affect what you choose to take in larger games the above was just an example of the thought process. This is as i said my preferred method for building a campaign list as i will know what my fleet is at all the common levels.
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It has been a while since I fielded an IN, chaos, or eldar BB. So I select them based on the model.
My SG Tau I always take 2 explorers but thus is a core ship IMO.
We play mostly 1000 pts games.
I can see starting with a BB if your standard game is 1500 pts though.
Still IMO it is easier to scale up than scale down.
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Not going to lie, I really like the idea of a fleet core composed of an apocalypse supported by 2 nova armageddons, but would this be too focused/too many eggs in a ceramite basket? It seems solid in principle; three nova's closing, along with 9 battery and 4 lance to toss in at 60cm; turn to broadside with 21 battery and 14 lances! It seems kinda like a b BOOM bit**es! moment, but you guys know better than I do...
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3 Nova Cannon in 1500pts is fine. No spam to me or broken.
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I mean't rather is that many points sunk into only three ships too vulnerable? As in, I have noticed so far a repeating trend, regardless of the fleet: less ships is bad. Regardless of the guality/inferior nature of a given ship, the less targets you present your opponent with, the more punishment each one is going to take. This is one of the reasons eldar are so hard to kill, an it's because the fleet is so diffused that no amount of hammering will cripple the fleet; only individual escorts or squadrons. By contrast, this is part of the reason people seem to hate AdMech; even though their ships are pretty good, they are more expensive than IN but not much tougher, so they tend to get smashed as enemies concentrate fire on them. I'm just concerned that having 875 points of my fleet in 3 targets is just asking for a pounding, which the BB can take but not my cruisers necessarily.
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Tell that to someone who does not field a fully loaded Void Dragon in 1500pts (320+150+re-roll). 1/3 in one ship. har har.
Is a noted Barge killer though. :)
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Well in a 1.5k that leaves you with 625, 440 will get your pair of Dictators and taking the cheapest admiral your looking at 135 points so maybe a reroll and some swords. Thats really not so bad considering you would only squeeze 6 full cruisers and change with even a cheap BB.
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What about (gasp) multiple battleships? While not feasible at less than 2000pt+, is this ever worth it? Or it the cruiser spearhead more powerful and affordable? It anyone has ever fielded multiple BB, I would be curious to know what they used and what their experiences were.
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What about (gasp) multiple battleships? While not feasible at less than 2000pt+, is this ever worth it? Or it the cruiser spearhead more powerful and affordable? It anyone has ever fielded multiple BB, I would be curious to know what they used and what their experiences were.
I once played a large game of all BBs (mixed IN/SM) against an equal points fleet consisting of all CAs and CBs (Chaos), just to see if BBs were worth their cost and the heavy restrictions placed on them. The BBs annihilated the cruisers, with only one ship being crippled in return, if I remember correctly. So this suggests that their cost and limitation are both justified and that they should be taken wherever possible.
However, to be fair. this was pretty much a straight up slug fest, with little to no manoeuvring taking place. The battlebarges performed supremely, as one would expect, and the BBs put out a serious amount of fire since they were almost always locked on and had targets in both broadsides at 30cm or less. Conversely I've had an Apocalypse taken out by a single large squadron of Swords. The price of leaving a BB unsupported and unbraced.
These two extreme examples I think exemplify both the strengths and weaknesses of BBs. If you are likely to play a straight up brawl with little terrain and many soft enemy targets (ie, a large battle), the battleship is the way to go. Otherwise, their lack of manoeuvrability and need for support could make more intricate operations difficult.
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Interesting...bad luck on the apocalypse, btw ;). Imperial BB in particular are kind of sluggish so I can see how terrain could really reduce their effectiveness. Were the BB squadroned or left to their own devices? Was there any real ordnance capabilities or all direct fire?
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Emperors squadroned are silly good... I havent had luck with gun battleships but then the only time I have taken multiples were Retributions and theyre only just better than a cruiser pair by themselves.
I imagine that Sig could probably give more accurate estimates but its something like 13 hits to cripple a BB when braced and 14 to destroy a cruiser.
When you look at a crippled Retribution compared to a Lunar theyre pretty close to the same, 2 shields 6vs8 hits (advantage Lunar) 6weapons batteries(ret gets the nod for range) 2 lances (toss up, Lunar has more but Ret has better arc and range) 5vs6 torpedoes (Lunar) 2 turrets Retribution is 5cm slower. They sound pretty close when taken like this, but you pay more points for 2 Lunars than a Ret (15) and the Lunars are easier to wear down over time (6 hits for example on a Retribution is only 2 damage while a Lunar would be crippled. So the real advantage is in the amount of damage they can take over time as theyre weapons are slightly weaker for about the same cost. An Emperor is even worse as it boils down to a longer ranged Dictator when crippled -2 hits and torps but +1 leadership still and its 75 points cheaper than the cruiser pair plus the initial durability difference. So ya they can be worth it but I have found that they tend to draw alot of fire with my group (usually all of the fire :P) and dont last very long where as with cruisers theres more of a tendancy to spread the love around for some reason.... Psycological I imagine, but it means I usually dont field a lot of BB's in 1.5k games.
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Interesting...bad luck on the apocalypse, btw ;). Imperial BB in particular are kind of sluggish so I can see how terrain could really reduce their effectiveness. Were the BB squadroned or left to their own devices? Was there any real ordnance capabilities or all direct fire?
Eh, my own fault. I didn't put enough resources into the Sword squadron and what I did direct their way did absolutely sod all (as per bloody usual). My Apocalypse had failed to lock on and found itself just out of range, so I was already disgusted with it and myself and decided not to brace it as I was determined for the bloody thing to get to fire on LO next turn. I figured it should be able to absorb the hits. I obviously had never seen any of my games. Ever.
I imagine that Sig could probably give more accurate estimates but its something like 13 hits to cripple a BB when braced and 14 to destroy a cruiser.
Sixteen hits to cripple a braced BB, 18 hits to destroy a braced cruiser. Unbraced is 10 for each.
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We seem to be of kindred spirits in the rolling department...my last few games have been decent, but generally I consistently beat the odds to fail at almost every task. Emperor with 10 leadership? Fail 2 reload ordnance that game. 2 Locked on dauntless? 1 hit, followed by another hit next round when not LO. Pretty typical of me to...That's why i'm trying to improve my technique and general playing skill. Hopefully I can get so boss that no amount of bad rolling can undo my masterful stratagems...hopefully. ::)
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You do manage to make most of your bfi rolls...4 hits past shields, none stick...multiple times...
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I did mention my last few games were pretty good. BFI is my apparent new specialty... ;)
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Ya BFI can be poo sometimes too tho. I brace against 2 Orcas locked on, fail every save :/. Score 16 hits on an explorer, takes 2 hits :/ starts a fire that never goes out and bruns the explorer to the ground tho. It all balances out in the end but sometimes you just feel cheated :D.
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Ain't that the truth.. ;)