Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Talos on October 03, 2012, 04:51:21 AM
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People really seem to dance around the bush about the Oberon, so instead i'm making a new hypothetical battleship to fill the all-arounder niche; partial credit to AndrewChristlieb for inspiration (doffs cap theatrically).
What about this profile:
Hyperion Class Battleship 360pts
Hits: 12 (typical BB)
Movement: 20cm (retribution)
Shields: 4 (typical BB)
Turrets: 5 (oberon, emperor)
Armor: 6+Front, 5+around (retribution, apocalypse)
Prow Torpedo STR 9 (retribution)
Dorsal Battery FP 9 45cm (apocalypse BFG:R but less range)
Port/Starboard Battery FP 6 45 cm
Port/Starboard Lance FP 2 45cm
Port/Starboard Launch bays STR 2
Option to buy shark assault boats at +5 points.
Too good? Too bad? Too lame? Please don't bash me on fluff/how useful would it be in a IN fleet; this is an exercise in ship balancing/generalist BB build.
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370 pts.
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Presumably you mean 370pts, +5 for the sharks afterward? I assume the torp/AC synergy and reinforced prow are what boost it to above emperor price, but are the launch bays not worth quite a bit?
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Small calc on firepower:
Hyperion:
21 weapon batteries x1 = 21
4 lances x3 = 12
9 torps x 1,5 = 13,5
4 launch x3 = 12
total = 58,5
Emperor
22 weapon batteres x1 = 22
8 launch x3 = 24
total = 48
Ofcourse Emperor has the better range and more ac coverage but you Hyperion has:
Armoured Prow, better speed + syngery ordnance attack
And more firepower. In fact, it has double direct weaponry available.
The Emperor has better range but the lance means more at range.
In a single broadside
Emperor has 16wb
Hyperion has 15wb + 2 lances (15 + 6 = 21).
(ps easy ref @ 30cm:
3 weapon batteries = 1 lance = 1 launch bay = 1,5 torpedo
This for quick run downs.)
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Compared to the Oberon you have nearly the same prow+dorsal (5+5 vs 9) weapons batteries. Your broadsides are shorter ranged but you have added 9 Torpedoes and the range better supports the role so your kinda level on weapons load out. The big points for me would be the armor and speed, both very strong and without them this ship would flop so a big boost there. On the other hand your losing one to your leadership, that +1 leadership is a massive boon to any ship especially a carrier. So torps swap for lower range, and a slightly weaker L/F/R. +1 leadership swap for 6+prow and 5 cm speed. Torp/launch synergy is offset by gunship/ carrier confliction. Id go for 265/270 w/ boats.
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Is it too powerful then? What if the dorsal was only a six instead? Would that allow a small point drop?
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Andrew means 365/370 I think. ;)
A drop of wb strength like that is: -5 to -10pts.
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Lol yes 365/370
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@ horizon Not much of a mathematician, but how do launch bays and lances have the same cost? If that were the case, I would take my dictators at 190 (premium) and not even run a BB ;) I'm thinking maybe dorsal batteries at fp 6 is better suited, even at only 45cm. Ultimate question, I suppose: would you guys allow this ship in a game, with the 6 fp dorsal change and 365/370 cost? With normal BB restrictions, of course. This question assumes you are not a puritan versus homebrew and you are allowed to mull it over well in advance of facing it.
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@ horizon Not much of a mathematician, but how do launch bays and lances have the same cost? If that were the case, I would take my dictators at 190 (premium) and not even run a BB ;) I'm thinking maybe dorsal batteries at fp 6 is better suited, even at only 45cm. Ultimate question, I suppose: would you guys allow this ship in a game, with the 6 fp dorsal change and 365/370 cost? With normal BB restrictions, of course. This question assumes you are not a puritan versus homebrew and you are allowed to mull it over well in advance of facing it.
+1 turret = +10 pts
6WBe@30cmL+R swap to 4AC = +20 pts
These are the prices that a Dictator pays over a Lunar. The launch bay strength equivalences that Horizon gives are correct at up to 4AC, but refers mainly to effective attack strength and hardpoint usage. You pay extra because you can launch them at the one target (arc flexibility) and because they're also defensive in nature (can intercept enemy ordnance).
Comparing to a 355 pt fixed Retribution (which is still a little cheap) the 6WB@45cmL+R swap to 4AC = +10 pts. The 9WB@45cmLFR swap for the 3L@60cmLFR in the dorsal mount is worth slightly less than the 2L@45cmL+R swap over the 6WB@45cmL+R. Maybe 10~15 pts. However the 5th turret is worth 15 pts, and fudging those other trades to be equal isn't too bad given the Ret is still pretty good at 355 pts and this is a new ship. Paying slightly over the odds on a new ship compared to a known very good ship is ok.
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Knowing all of this, would you let an opponent play it at 365/370?
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Knowing all of this, would you let an opponent play it at 365/370?
Yeah.
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Excellent, I was working on my own fleet list, representing a far flung patrol fleet that covered a big tract of space, with a specialist anti-pirate focus. Gameplay wise all-comers BB, with only ordnance carriers such as dictators and dominions backed up by light cruisers and lots of escorts.
Looking sort of like
Hyperion BB
Dominion Battlecruiser
A pair of dictator cruisers
a pair of enforcer light cruisers or endeavour light cruisers
rest is cobras, swords, firestorms
Probably not very strong, but needing a very versatile flagship.
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Hey,
for long range patrol a strong asset!
Patrols are usually being done by lone ships. Eg a lone Sword, a lone Dauntless, etc
You could alter it do be a fleet asset in far flung sector and that is the whole fleet in the sector.
So 1 Dictator does the patrol in subsector x and so forth.
Lots of AC you have.
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I know official patrol (as per GW) is light cruiser with a pair of escorts, but you are correct in that I mean't far flung patrol fleet with strong pirate presence, thus lots of ordnance to flush them out of their hidey-holes, and escorts to wipe them out. The light cruisers and frigates are known for their "long legs" and thus can patrol for long lengths of time, making them ideal mainstay vessels for this fleet. I feel it is not appropriate to have lots of dedicated line ships, so the fleet does not include such things as tyrants, gothics or dominators. As for the lots of ordnance, it is rather steep compared to imperial standard, but the loss of direct fire, no NC and the fact that IN ordnance is really bad kind of makes up for it.
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IN ordnance is bad? ???
No NC means more torps = not bad.
:)
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I did not mean that it was unplayable, nearly that every race has an equal or better fighter, for instance (Tau being worse and chaos being equal but cheaper to field). The bombers are the worst (only chaos is equal, but again cheaper and orcs are debatable but arguably worse as fighters) and assault boats as well (not as punishing because many races do not even have them at all). Eldar+CWE+Dark Eldar, Tau and SM all have superior torpedoes or variety, orks have stronger waves/more waves, with chaos having noticeably less and nids being generally worse ordnance than everybody (excepting the sheer quantity), necron not having any at all.
So all in all, although IN ordnance is playable and has a place, it is generally inferior to other races.
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But IN is attack craft plus many torpedoes
Chaos is attack craft with few torpedoes (unless you play my fleet).
marines is less attack craft and les torpedoes
Orks can do masses
Tau can do masses
In the end if you assess all the complete ordnance package will put the Imperial Navy on a balanced level.
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I am not arguing than IN cannot field reasonable ordnance QUANTITIES. You are correct in that IN can has access to lots of large torpedo salvos, and that their AC is a tad pricey but not ridiculous. It's more that mechanically, almost every other race has superior abilities or variety to the same types, and as such although an IN torpedo salvo may be of equivalent strength to many races, each of those individual torpedoes is weaker than other races.
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I think you're not getting Horizons point. Yes individually they are not so sweet and most races can put out just as much. The point I believe he is making is that turret defense is EITHER / OR so IN ordinance synergizes amazingly well together.
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IN ac is very powerful. About half of the INs markers are from gunships that can spam every turn while closing, lock on and fire guns, rinse and repeat. While variety is good its not needed, you want lots of cheap spamable torps and waves of FBBB with IN. In a balanced 1500 im looking for anywhere from 2-4 FBBB waves and 36 torps along with all the guns and lances. A good example would be Emp, Dominion, Lunar, Lunar, Daunt, Daunt, 3 Cobras, 4 Cobras, F Adm.
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Thank you Jimmy & Andrew,
With all the Imperial torps you can make 4 AC in 1500pts function.
For Tau: yes there AC is better, but that's why they lack staying power overall seen. That's why the have less gunnery, that is wht that past their front arc they are meat.
For Chaos: fields exactly the same AC but with easier access to assault boats. But much less torpedoes. IN vs Chaos is balanced on all accounts.
Marines: oh ah T-Hawk, but much less quantities and true line ships.
Eldar: They have better AC, true. Correctly so. Quality over Quantity.
Orks field fighter bombers but aren't stronger on what is ac (Orks need terror spam to be decent at AC.
Nids: easy initial access but not better or worse in what they do.
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Interesting points, people...so is a list that includes both dominions and dictators unbalanced? Now you have me thinking IN have the best ordnance... ;)
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Not really over powered but a bit top heavy maybe. Of course for 700pts i can think of worse cores for a fleet.
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I mean't more since is no fleet list that allows them, is that overpowered? Or do battlecruisers count as cruisers for reserves? As in can you get a dominion if you already have 3 dauntless light cruisers?
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LC CA CB GC all count as cruisers for reserve purposes.
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That is super awesome...Is a heavy ordnance fleet a bad build for IN, as in is it too weak or too cheesy?
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Well that depends i guess? The CA nad CL options are ok but not the greatest all around theyre very support oriented. With the right CB, CG and BB options its probably viable.