Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: afterimagedan on October 23, 2012, 05:07:58 PM
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Vote 3.
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BFG:R: fine
with art from the document I once published. :)
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Any thoughts about edits to stats/costs? Here's a question: should changing from BFG:R MMS rules to original MMS rules change the point values of ships?
I actually just got done going through the point values and balance between the ships and I think they are pretty well balanced. Obviously, the Dark Mirror Succubus is supposed to be WB 6 instead of 16.
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Alright, here's the BFG:R Dark Eldar document so far. I have replaced out the keywords from old BFG:R, brought in the MMS 1.9b Holofield rules for the shadowfield rules, and brought in the MMS 1.9b critical chart.
++BFG:R Dark Eldar++ (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1596994/BFGR%202/BFGR%20Dark%20Eldar.pdf)
P.S. I didn't mess with the defenses at all, or the fleet list last page.
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just a few things I noticed while running through this.
DE dont have a min movement now?
If the Dark Eldar player causes a critical hit of '9'
during a hit and run or a boarding action, he will gain an
additional 100 victory points as some of the enemy captains are
captured.
How do you score a 9 in a hit and run?
Shadowfields dont offer any protection from a direct hit with a nova?
Leech torpedoe causes an automatic critical result of "8" but no damage, does the shipo still take the automatic damage from a critical result of "8"?
Why does the Impailer get a 3+ save instead of the standard 4+ as presented in Armada?
Grand cruiser type on the Mortalis
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@ Andrew I have some asnwers for you
Impalers roll 2d6 on their hit and run check, so can score a 9.
Shadowfields are identical to holofields, and in MMS they offer no protection against NC. In BFG:R plaxor has it so that NC can reroll their scatter die if locked on, so presumably to counter this holo/shadow fields will get the vs. lance save against them, or take plaxors approach and allow them to force a reroll of direct hits.
Leech torpedo's should not cause damage IMO, because that makes normal torpedoes superfluous.
If we are using MMS 1.9b presumably we will make DE movement copy paste of CE and craftworld eldar.
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just a few things I noticed while running through this.
DE dont have a min movement now?
No
If the Dark Eldar player causes a critical hit of '9'
during a hit and run or a boarding action, he will gain an
additional 100 victory points as some of the enemy captains are
captured. How do you score a 9 in a hit and run?
impalers
Shadowfields dont offer any protection from a direct hit with a nova?
not at this point but I think it should be changed in the MMS and Dark Eldar documents
Leech torpedoe causes an automatic critical result of "8" but no damage, does the ship still take the automatic damage from a critical result of "8"?
it shouldn't. If there is a chart that has 8 at also damaging the ships as far as hits go, we need to make a change
Why does the Impailer get a 3+ save instead of the standard 4+ as presented in Armada?
yes, I believe that is what he was going for
Grand cruiser type on the Mortalis
i'm on it
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Shadowfields are identical to holofields, and in MMS they offer no protection against NC. In BFG:R plaxor has it so that NC can reroll their scatter die if locked on, so presumably to counter this holo/shadow fields will get the vs. lance save against them, or take plaxors approach and allow them to force a reroll of direct hits.
I think we either need to plan to have a change to NCs (like the newest BFG:R book has them or something different) and make holofields either make the NC reroll a hit, cancelling with a lock-on special order, OR we need to give it shadowfield saves against successful hull damage.
Leech torpedo's should not cause damage IMO, because that makes normal torpedoes superfluous.
agreed
If we are using MMS 1.9b presumably we will make DE movement copy paste of CE and craftworld eldar.
I'm not sure what I think about this, because Eldar have the solar movement stuff. I actually think keeping this the way it is would be better for DE.
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Hum, Impailers roll a critical hit not a hit and run, probably just my ocd talking tho ::). Dark Eldar should definitely not get the same movement as Eldar, theres no reasoning for it.
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I think we will have to make the point that these never do damage, even if it is indicated on the enemy ship's critical chart.
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Keep this on hold. I want to toothpick this one.
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Keep this on hold. I want to toothpick this one.
It's not going anywhere! I am happy to see all the support for finishing BFG:R. Can't wait to get this thing done.
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I am on the edge if MMS should go the DE as well.
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You should (maybe) clarify that if an impaler causes a Fire! critical, it still causes damage. If it's not specifically stated, then the argument could be made that it doesn't.
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Fire doesnt automatically cause damage tho, and the Armada rules has the Impailer listed as causing a critical hit not a hit and run.
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So now that we are winding down on chaos and tau, the next two are admech and dark Eldar.
What sort of changes do we need to finish up here?
-Voidraven upgrade for 40pts seems excessive. Do voidravens fire plasma torpedoes or just regular imperial type?
-Why the 6 cruiser limit? Seems a bit low.
-do the defenses need to be in there? Its kind of nice to have, IMO.
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This is from the Dark Eldar house rules I once published, not wrote:
http://the-first-magelord.deviantart.com/art/Dark-Eldar-Wych-81837904
art from Magelord, specifically made for the DE rules. Use it if you dare. ;)
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Any thoughts?
We have play tested the current BFGR dark Eldar and it has been great. The 2 hit escorts have been a blast to play. Also, the mortalis is a really nice addition.
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I've tested BFG:R DE several times now and they seem to work well enough. One thing bugs me, though: Why does Succubus get 3 lances, while Torture gets only 2? I've tried using lance Tortures and they usually underperform in comparison to their lighter counterpart. So in my oppinion, either -1 lance on Succubus [while making this variant cheaper] or change lance Torture to 3 str, 250 pts variant.
On smaller scale, same problem with torpedo variant: same strength on both. It makes launch bay/impaler variants more attractive than other two, I think...
Also, launch bay Mortalis - other variants are stronger than respective Torture, this one is the same. Unless you're hard pressed for both ordnance and capital ships, extra carrier Torture was usually superior option for me.
All minor points, though, fleet seems to perform quite well.
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Khar, those are great observations. I think the Succubus is a typo. I actually think I may have talked to Plaxor about that at one point. I will update the document and you are right about the price; it should be 140pts.
About Torpedoes, I think it makes sense. The Torture with torpedoes is on the cheaper end of things, the Succubus with torpedoes is on the more expensive end of things. I am not entirely against giving the Succubus 3 torpedoes at a cheaper price.
For the Mortalis, they should all be at 300. This makes up for no increase in launch capacity compared to the torture version. combined with the increased price for the carrier torture and the not increased price for the carrier mortalis, I think it works. he torpedo variant should have 6 torpedoes. This evens them all to 300pts.
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Oh yeah, the other crappy part we ran into when playtesting is the roll twice for H&Rs and pick the result. This took forever when we hit a ship with 8 assault boats. We basically changed it to +1 to H&Rs for the rest of the game and that actually worked well.
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I kind of agree on that one. Rolling twice mechanic seems nice until you have to do it 8 times in single strike. +1 might be a bit stronger overall, but is surely simpler.
Mortalis for 300 points in all variants [with 6 torpedos] seems like a good idea, too.
If succubus would have 2 lances for 140, I'd leave 4 torpedo variant as it is. 3 torpedos, even at lower cost, would be inferior option to 2 lances in nearly every case.
I'm not sure about Impaler Succubus, too. With single Impaler it's armed only a little bit stronger than a Corsair while being worth more than a double price. 2 Impaler corsairs have roughly the same resilience [same hits, more shields, less armour], more weapons [2 less batteries, one more impaler] and cost less. Also, they allow you to get more capital ships, while Succubus eats valuable slot.
So I'd give Succubus 2 impalers (for 150?).
And as I'm already in analysing Succubus mode, what's left is a carrier version: Other fleets show that light carriers tend not to work. And I don't know who in their right mind would waste DE capital ship slot on 2 launch bay light cruiser. This thing might need work. Or remove variant altogether as it doesn't seem to perform any function now?
Removing it would also make its weapon loadouts look nicely compared to the torture: half the batteries and full strength on secondary system in every variant.
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I need to paint my DE so I can finally add more then naughty images.
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I'm not sure about Impaler Succubus, too. With single Impaler it's armed only a little bit stronger than a Corsair while being worth more than a double price. 2 Impaler corsairs have roughly the same resilience [same hits, more shields, less armour], more weapons [2 less batteries, one more impaler] and cost less. Also, they allow you to get more capital ships, while Succubus eats valuable slot.
So I'd give Succubus 2 impalers (for 150?).
Could you rephrase this? I don't get what you mean.
And as I'm already in analysing Succubus mode, what's left is a carrier version: Other fleets show that light carriers tend not to work. And I don't know who in their right mind would waste DE capital ship slot on 2 launch bay light cruiser. This thing might need work. Or remove variant altogether as it doesn't seem to perform any function now?
Light carriers do work well in squadrons and in smaller games, especially with elite launch craft like dark Eldar. I think it would be good to make it work.
Removing it would also make its weapon loadouts look nicely compared to the torture: half the batteries and full strength on secondary system in every variant.
I will look into this some more and get back.
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Also, the original Dark Eldar have +1 to H&Rs. I think that would be OK. The last huge game we player with dark Eldar, the reroll hit and tuns got so annoying, we went back to the original +1 instead. We then remembered that that was the original way all along.
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Could you rephrase this? I don't get what you mean.
What I meant was Baleful Gaze pattern of Succubus should, In my oppinion have str2 Impaler bay instead of str1 and cost 150 points, not 140.
With single Impaler it's not really worth wasting cruiser slot on, as pair of Impaler Corsairs would do its job better. At least that's what my testing showed.
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I agree. I also think we should get rid of the cruiser and light cruiser caps. All that does is not allow you to play very large games.
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One more thing I've been thinking about:
If we look at the fluff, Dark Eldar vs Craftworlders conflicts almost never occur. Not on large scale, anyway. Temporary alliance, on the other hand, seems to be quite common. It makes sens, really: You'd probably prefer to ally with your weird cousin than a mindless animal [as in, rest of the factions]. Also, they're listed as battle brothers when it comes to allying in 40k rulebook.
What I'm trying to say: Could we consider, just to get rid of this stupid 'they are high and dark elves so they hate each other more than anything' school of thought, letting Dark Eldar and Eldar fleets use each other's ships as some sort of limited reserve? It shouldn't break anythig and would be nice fluff addition.
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I wouldn't mind such alliances. Player should bring good fluff with him though. ;)
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Huh, its hard for me to see that happening Khar, but we can talk about it more. It feels so wrong to me... :( :D
Anyways, I've edited the document with the proposed changes and moved then defenses to the defenses document. How would you guys write the resembles section?
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Just noting: Mortalis seems to be unchanged, and in the final fleet list costs of Succubus are wrong, too. I'd change it myself, but seems like I misplaced my acrobat pro somewhere...
Also, one more question, as I'm not sure if we've been playing it right here: How does the matter of mimic engines look in BFGR? Does everything have them, or did the point cost of the upgrade just got lost somewhere?
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I am not sure about point cost yet, but I do think its weird that they don't work against tyranids and necrons. That may be fluffy, bit it is an unbalance like the old holofields used to have. I'll look into points again.
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Holofields appear to be worked into the point cost. Torture went from 210 to 230/ 250. The shadow fields were swapped out and replaced with the shields and turrets and weaker shadow fields like Eldar MMS. I think it's appropriate to work in the cost like that.
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Good, that's what I thought. I like the idea of mandatory mimic engines - when they were an upgrade, people often skipped them to lower the cost. Now they are essential element of DE playstyle.
(Also, when just in case I tested current fleet without mimic engines while keeping the cost, they tended to underperform)
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I should have those rules fixes finished on the document tonight. Then we will do one final look through and vote.
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Minor thing: I'd clarify in the beginning of Mimic Engines description that 'All Dark Eldar Vessels are equipped with Mimic Engines'. Now, when they're described close to paid upgrades such as Incubis, for people used to old rules, when you had to pay for them, it might not be fully clear.
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Agreed. I will make it crystal clear.
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Alright, it's ready for a final readthrough and once we get the ok, we can vote, barring any other problems in the list come up.
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I think we're done here. Unless we want to add new types of ships, everything we currently have is ready. ;)
(By the way, any particular reason there's no lance subjugation variant?)
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Hmm, it wasn't there in the old BFG:R so I never thought about it. Do you think it is something that should be added?
Also, are we ready to vote to finalize this?
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Well its been a while and with no response. Its time to vote on this.