Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: afterimagedan on October 26, 2012, 04:23:47 PM
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Changes (some of which are Plaxor's):
(keep in mind, when reading this, Plaxor's fleet point means full 1,000pts)
-Swap some of the names around, ex. Kraken Predator to Predator Kraken (Plaxor's)
-Add back in double launch capacity (Plaxor's)
-Add a bioplasma Kraken Predator (Plaxor's)
-Predator Kraken to 25cm move (like they used to be)
-I do not like the global evolutions stuff because there are two that you simply must take to be competitive (armor upgrade).
Here's how I think it should work:
-Each adult or adolescent hive ship get 4 points of evolutions they can choose. This will be accounted for in the points cost. Juvenile hive ships get 3 points.
-kraken carnivore, and leviathan prowler can choose 2 points of evolutions, which is worked into their points cost.
-Every 500pt of a game you are playing, you can spend 1 point on evolutions on escort squadrons.
-I think the increased armor evolution should become a +2 hits evolution. That way, it is more like the old rules, hive ships aren't stuck at 10 hits, and the armor that people would have always evolved would just be written in the stat line of the ship.
-Also, if we are going to go on the macro level with instinctive behavior (as opposed to 40k level), why not keep synapse? One thing to remember, the reason Plaxor has the standard Tyranid leadership as 6 is because his rules give light cruisers adding +1 ld to squadrons around them (this is something he told me specifically).
-I think Kraken from the old rules should replace the new Kraken Predator profile. The old no shield but always on brace added a lot of character to them.
-I think we should bring back the armor values of the old rules for each ship and throw in some armor upgrade options, maybe to upgrade the prow of carnivore kraken,
-One of the harder parts about playing Tyranids was getting your hive ships into offensive range. They do only move 15cm, even the adolescent ones. I think it would be best to give their wbs, a range boost (combined with a points boost of course). Realistically, most people will be fielding adolescent hives (which is the rules for the GW hive model). I think it should be bumped up to the 300pt - 325pt range. Also, I think it is under-priced at this point, especially with 4 evolution points and double launch capacity.
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Well, here goes:
1) In agreement with name swaps; just makes sense really.
2) Bioplasma kraken is the bomb; nuff said
3) Double launch bay capacity is a requirement for nids; their ordnance is crappy as all hell but very numerous
4) Kraken should be fast; the bugs need at least one decent speed unit just to compete against faster fleets
5) We have already discussed between us the evolution chart; great concept, mediocre execution (no bash to plaxor, just really hard to pull off)
Are we keeping his list of evolutions? We should probably make a full list of upgrades from BBB and BFG:R and have people vote to tweak/keep/discard them.
As for your escort number, better to give it a static number for simplicity's sake, I say.
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Well, here goes:
1) In agreement with name swaps; just makes sense really.
yep
2) Bioplasma kraken is the bomb; nuff said
yep
3) Double launch bay capacity is a requirement for nids; their ordnance is crappy as all hell but very numerous
yep
4) Kraken should be fast; the bugs need at least one decent speed unit just to compete against faster fleets
bringing back the old stats will help them with that
5) We have already discussed between us the evolution chart; great concept, mediocre execution (no bash to plaxor, just really hard to pull off)
Are we keeping his list of evolutions? We should probably make a full list of upgrades from BBB and BFG:R and have people vote to tweak/keep/discard them.
As for your escort number, better to give it a static number for simplicity's sake, I say.
probably. I will make a list right now
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I am going to
strikethrough ones I think we should get rid of.
Old Nids:
-Solar Vanes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +15 pts
The ship gains +5cm speed. fine
-Adrenaline Sacs . . . . . . . . . . +10 pts
The ship gains +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. fine
-Psychic Scream . . . . . . . . . . . +20 pts
Any enemy vessels within 15cm suffer -2Ld. Intended solely for hive ships. was expensive. should probably be changed 30cm and -1.
-More Discharge Vents . . . . . . +15 pts
The creature reduces the distance it needs to move before turning by 5cm. Not intended for escorts. starting a special rule with the word "more" is kind of crappy. Let's call is "advanced discharge vents."
-Extra Spore Cysts . . . . . +10 pts each
The ship gains one spore cyst. No more than two spore cysts can be gained in this manner. this is obsolete with shields now. drop.
-Reinforced Carapace . . . +10 pts each
The ship gains +1 Hit. No more than four additional Hits may be gained in this manner. If rolling randomly, a cruiser which attains 10 Hits in this way matures into a hive ship! Not intended for escorts. keep but make it just give +2 hits, not allowed for escorts.
-Mucous Membrane . . . . . . . . +20 pts
Bombers and assault boats suffer a -1 modifier (in addition to any other modifiers) when rolling their Attack roll, and all torpedoes must roll +1 to hit (maximum of 6+). Ranged weapon hits remain unaffected. fine
-Accelerated Healing . . . . . . . +10 pts
The bio-ship has enhanced its ability to heal critical wounds, enabling capital ships to roll two extra dice in the End phase when attempting to repair critical damage. Not intended for escorts. fine
-Drone Link . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +20 pts
The creature maintains an unbroken link with the Vanguard drone ships and hive ships of the swarm. When within 15cm of a Vanguard drone ship, all pyro-acid batteries benefit from a left
shift on the Gunnery table (before all other modifiers). fine
-Tenacity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +20 pts
When on All Ahead Full, Burn Retros or Come to New Heading special orders, its pyro-acid batteries and bio-plasma weapons are unaffected. fine but should probably be 15pts
-Mega-Spore Mines . . . . . . . .+10 pts per launch bay
Ships equipped with assault boat launch bays can exchange all their launch bays for spore mine launchers. Each launch bay can launch one mega-spore mine In the Ordnance phase Megaspore mines follow all movement and ordnance rules mines do on p.142 of the rulebook, but when rolling against armour to inflict hits, it inflicts that number of fire criticals instead. Not intended for escorts. I think this should only cost 1 evolution point but cost points per launch bay also.
it seems to me like that 10pts corresponds to 1 evolution point, 15pts to 2 evolution points, and 20pts to 3 evolution points.
New PDF Evolutions:
3 Spore Cysts - The Fleet has evolved organs which release numerous spores, concealing the Vessels in a living
cloud, and making targeting them rather difficult. The Vessels have the Holofields quality. new evolution. I'm not sure what I think about it but I like the fluff.
3 Tenacity - The Fleet has evolved a reorganized body structure better able to take the blows from enemy
fire and detonations. Vessels have Living Hull (2) instead of Living Hull (1). can't find what living hull is, I may be blanking
3 Drone Link - The Fleet has evolved large neural networks devoted to targeting. The Vessels gain Improved
Tracking Systems. new evolution
3 Reinforced Carapace - The Fleet has evolved a hardened carapace. Add 1 to of the Vessel’s Armour Characteristics (to a maximum of 6+). new evolution. i don't think it's needed if we have the built in armor that tyranids should have.
2 Solar Vanes - The Fleet has evolved organs which are able to absorb energy from sunlight and convert it to
momentum. Vessels add +5 to their Speed Characteristic. same as the old
2 Discharge Vents - The Fleet has evolved additional Discharge Vents used to manoeuvre. Vessels add 45˚ to their Turns Characteristic. new evolution. don't think it's needed.
2 Mucous Membrane - The Fleet has evolved organs which surround the Vessels in a thin layer of sticky mucous, and making Ordnance attacks difficult. Vessels gain Fast Tracking Turrets. new evolution
1 Adrenaline Sacs - The Fleet has evolved adrenaline releasing organs allowing a quick boost in speed. Vessels gain Improved Thrusters. same as the old
1 Accelerated Healing - The Fleet has evolved an ability to heal minor damage absurdly fast. Vessels gain Augmented Damage Control. modified old one.
1 Natural Killer Antibodies - The Fleet has evolved a more efficient Ordnance defence creature. Vessels add +1 to their Turrets Characteristic. new evolution
1 Hardened Myelin - The Fleet has increased the thickness of the myelin sheath around its dendrites, improving
cognitive function. Each Node gains 1 re-roll, free of cost. new evolution
1 Shadow Hive Mind - The Fleet has evolved a more powerful Hive Mind, and is able to plan attacks more
efficiently. The Fleet’s Attack Rating is increased by 1. May not be taken in an allied Fleet. new evolution. we should change the name of it to "Pheromone Trigger", like what happens with bees who switch on attack mode.
i will edit this later
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Here's my proposed solution to the Evolution chart:
Certain ships come with evolution points you spend before the game. Adult and Adolescent hives get 4, Juvenile gets 3, Carnivore and Leviathan Prowler get 2. For each 500 points the game is, you can spend 1 Evolution point on escort squads.
Cost Evolution
1 Natural Killer Antibodies - The Fleet has evolved a more efficient Ordnance defense creature. Vessels add +1 to their Turrets Characteristic.
1 Hardened Myelin - The Fleet has increased the thickness of the myelin sheath around its dendrites, improving cognitive function. The vessel or squadron gains 1 re-roll, free of cost.
1 Pheromone Rage - The Fleet has evolved a more powerful Hive Mind, and is able to plan attacks more
efficiently. The Fleet’s Attack Rating is increased by 1. May not be taken in an allied Fleet and may only be taken on a Hive ship or any kind.
1 Accelerated Healing - The bio-ship has enhanced its ability to heal critical wounds, enabling capital ships to roll two extra dice in the End phase when attempting to repair critical damage. Not allowed on escorts.
1 Adrenaline Sacs - The ship gains +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders
1 Mega-Spore Mines - Ships equipped with assault boat launch bays can exchange all their launch bays for spore mine launchers. Each launch bay can launch one mega-spore mine In the Ordnance phase Megaspore mines follow all movement and ordnance rules mines do on p.142 of the rulebook, but when rolling against armour to inflict hits, it inflicts that number of fire criticals instead. Not intended for escorts. This also costs +10pts per launch bay.
2 Advanced Discharge Vents - The creature reduces the distance it needs to move before turning by 5cm. Not intended for escorts.
2 Reinforced Carapace - The ship gains +2 hits. Not allowed on escorts.
2 Solar Vanes - The ship or squadron gains +5cm speed.
2 Tenacity - When on All Ahead Full, Burn Retros or Come to New Heading special orders, its pyro-acid batteries and bio-plasma weapons are unaffected.
3 Psychic Scream - Any enemy vessels withing 30cm suffer -1Ld. This may only be taken on hive ships.
3 Mucous Membrance - Bombers and assault boats suffer a -1 modifier (in addition to any other modifiers) when rolling their Attack roll, and all torpedoes must roll +1 to hit (maximum of 6+). Ranged weapon hits remain unaffected.
3 Drone Link - The creature maintains an unbroken link with the Vanguard drone ships and hive ships of the swarm. When within 15cm of a Vanguard drone ship, all pyro-acid batteries benefit from a left
shift on the Gunnery table (before all other modifiers).
3 Spore Cysts - The Fleet has evolved organs which release numerous spores, concealing the Vessels in a living
cloud, and making targeting them rather difficult. The Vessels have the Holofields quality
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I am going to strikethrough ones I think we should get rid of.
Old Nids:
-Solar Vanes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +15 pts
The ship gains +5cm speed. fine Escorts? 5pts each?
-Adrenaline Sacs . . . . . . . . . . +10 pts
The ship gains +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. fine Same as above?
-Psychic Scream . . . . . . . . . . . +20 pts
Any enemy vessels within 15cm suffer -2Ld. Intended solely for hive ships. was expensive. should probably be changed 30cm and -1. 20pts 30cm range -1 cumulative upto -3 this would be good for the MoS also
-More Discharge Vents . . . . . . +15 pts
The creature reduces the distance it needs to move before turning by 5cm. Not intended for escorts. starting a special rule with the word "more" is kind of crappy. Let's call is "advanced discharge vents." hum... More is blah not to sure about advanced either tho, additional?
-Extra Spore Cysts . . . . . +10 pts each
The ship gains one spore cyst. No more than two spore cysts can be gained in this manner. this is obsolete with shields now. drop.
-Reinforced Carapace . . . +10 pts each
The ship gains +1 Hit. No more than four additional Hits may be gained in this manner. If rolling randomly, a cruiser which attains 10 Hits in this way matures into a hive ship! Not intended for escorts. keep but make it just give +2 hits, not allowed for escorts. So no more growing into a Hive ship? I kinda like that idea actually, simplifies it a bit.
-Mucous Membrane . . . . . . . . +20 pts
Bombers and assault boats suffer a -1 modifier (in addition to any other modifiers) when rolling their Attack roll, and all torpedoes must roll +1 to hit (maximum of 6+). Ranged weapon hits remain unaffected. fine This seems really powerful.
-Accelerated Healing . . . . . . . +10 pts
The bio-ship has enhanced its ability to heal critical wounds, enabling capital ships to roll two extra dice in the End phase when attempting to repair critical damage. Not intended for escorts. fine
-Drone Link . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +20 pts
The creature maintains an unbroken link with the Vanguard drone ships and hive ships of the swarm. When within 15cm of a Vanguard drone ship, all pyro-acid batteries benefit from a left
shift on the Gunnery table (before all other modifiers). fine so just when within 15 of a drone or drones and hives? the fluffy bit there seems to indicate both.
-Tenacity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +20 pts
When on All Ahead Full, Burn Retros or Come to New Heading special orders, its pyro-acid batteries and bio-plasma weapons are unaffected. fine but should probably be 15pts o_O of any options I think this one should be 10% as its very dependant on the weapons load as to how powerful it is, rounded up of course, no sill 33 pt nonsense ;)
-Mega-Spore Mines . . . . . . . .+10 pts per launch bay
Ships equipped with assault boat launch bays can exchange all their launch bays for spore mine launchers. Each launch bay can launch one mega-spore mine In the Ordnance phase Megaspore mines follow all movement and ordnance rules mines do on p.142 of the rulebook, but when rolling against armour to inflict hits, it inflicts that number of fire criticals instead. Not intended for escorts. I think this should only cost 1 evolution point but cost points per launch bay also. Seems pricy, but then so do Torpedo bombers.
it seems to me like that 10pts corresponds to 1 evolution point, 15pts to 2 evolution points, and 20pts to 3 evolution points.
New PDF Evolutions:
3 Spore Cysts - The Fleet has evolved organs which release numerous spores, concealing the Vessels in a living
cloud, and making targeting them rather difficult. The Vessels have the Holofields quality. new evolution. I'm not sure what I think about it but I like the fluff. I like it and it helps ease the transition from having spores to not, potential to be overpowered (Adult Hive with Spore Cysts o_O!!!)
3 Tenacity - The Fleet has evolved a reorganized body structure better able to take the blows from enemy
fire and detonations. Vessels have Living Hull (2) instead of Living Hull (1). can't find what living hull is, I may be blanking Got me? sounds like Necron auto save tho, isnt Tenacity already the name of another upgrade?
3 Drone Link - The Fleet has evolved large neural networks devoted to targeting. The Vessels gain Improved
Tracking Systems. new evolution Also hasnt this name already been used? What is an Improved tracking system... ;)
3 Reinforced Carapace - The Fleet has evolved a hardened carapace. Add 1 to of the Vessel’s Armour Characteristics (to a maximum of 6+). new evolution. i don't think it's needed if we have the built in armor that tyranids should have. Agreed, altho you know I want an Adult hive with this and holofields, and a large fry
2 Solar Vanes - The Fleet has evolved organs which are able to absorb energy from sunlight and convert it to
momentum. Vessels add +5 to their Speed Characteristic. same as the old[/s]
2 Discharge Vents - The Fleet has evolved additional Discharge Vents used to manoeuvre. Vessels add 45˚ to their Turns Characteristic. new evolution. don't think it's needed. Oh look, it does sound pretty good with "additional" :P
2 Mucous Membrane - The Fleet has evolved organs which surround the Vessels in a thin layer of sticky mucous, and making Ordnance attacks difficult. Vessels gain Fast Tracking Turrets. new evolution
So this instead of the other mucous?
1 Adrenaline Sacs - The Fleet has evolved adrenaline releasing organs allowing a quick boost in speed. Vessels gain Improved Thrusters. same as the old
1 Accelerated Healing - The Fleet has evolved an ability to heal minor damage absurdly fast. Vessels gain Augmented Damage Control. modified old one.
1 Natural Killer Antibodies - The Fleet has evolved a more efficient Ordnance defence creature. Vessels add +1 to their Turrets Characteristic. new evolution 10pts maximum of 1?
1 Hardened Myelin - The Fleet has increased the thickness of the myelin sheath around its dendrites, improving
cognitive function. Each Node gains 1 re-roll, free of cost. new evolution 25 pts?
1 Shadow Hive Mind - The Fleet has evolved a more powerful Hive Mind, and is able to plan attacks more
efficiently. The Fleet’s Attack Rating is increased by 1. May not be taken in an allied Fleet. new evolution. we should change the name of it to "Pheromone Trigger", like what happens with bees who switch on attack mode. I guess for people that use that nonsense this might be useful?Here's my proposed solution to the Evolution chart:
Certain ships come with evolution points you spend before the game. Adult and Adolescent hives get 4, Juvenile gets 3, Carnivore and Leviathan Prowler get 2. For each 500 points the game is, you can spend 1 Evolution point on escort squads.
Cost Evolution
1 Natural Killer Antibodies - The Fleet has evolved a more efficient Ordnance defense creature. Vessels add +1 to their Turrets Characteristic. cool, 10 pts 5 each for escorts? max of +1?
1 Hardened Myelin - The Fleet has increased the thickness of the myelin sheath around its dendrites, improving cognitive function. The vessel or squadron gains 1 re-roll, free of cost. same as before 25pts? maximum allowed?
1 Pheromone Rage - The Fleet has evolved a more powerful Hive Mind, and is able to plan attacks more
efficiently. The Fleet’s Attack Rating is increased by 1. May not be taken in an allied Fleet and may only be taken on a Hive ship or any kind. pts cost? I have no experiance to judge this on :/
1 Accelerated Healing - The bio-ship has enhanced its ability to heal critical wounds, enabling capital ships to roll two extra dice in the End phase when attempting to repair critical damage. Not allowed on escorts. Cool, 10pts?
1 Adrenaline Sacs - The ship gains +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders also good, 10 pts again, 5 for escorts?
1 Mega-Spore Mines - Ships equipped with assault boat launch bays can exchange all their launch bays for spore mine launchers. Each launch bay can launch one mega-spore mine In the Ordnance phase Megaspore mines follow all movement and ordnance rules mines do on p.142 of the rulebook, but when rolling against armour to inflict hits, it inflicts that number of fire criticals instead. Not intended for escorts. This also costs +10pts per launch bay. So is this one upgrade for ALL the launch bays +pts or just one pair?
2 Advanced Discharge Vents - The creature reduces the distance it needs to move before turning by 5cm. Not intended for escorts. Cool, not so sure if this is worth 15, maybe 10pts?
2 Reinforced Carapace - The ship gains +2 hits. Not allowed on escorts. Maximum of 1?, +20pts?
2 Solar Vanes - The ship or squadron gains +5cm speed. 10 and 5 for escorts? 15 seems a bit high once again
2 Tenacity - When on All Ahead Full, Burn Retros or Come to New Heading special orders, its pyro-acid batteries and bio-plasma weapons are unaffected. still think this should be 10% rounded up
3 Psychic Scream - Any enemy vessels withing 30cm suffer -1Ld. This may only be taken on hive ships. I like it, make it cumulative to a certain point (-3 for example)
3 Mucous Membrance - Bombers and assault boats suffer a -1 modifier (in addition to any other modifiers) when rolling their Attack roll, and all torpedoes must roll +1 to hit (maximum of 6+). Ranged weapon hits remain unaffected. Good, but should be pricy imo, 20-30pts?
3 Drone Link - The creature maintains an unbroken link with the Vanguard drone ships and hive ships of the swarm. When within 15cm of a Vanguard drone ship, all pyro-acid batteries benefit from a left
shift on the Gunnery table (before all other modifiers). 20 pts? and same question only when within 15 of a drone or drones and hives?
3 Spore Cysts - The Fleet has evolved organs which release numerous spores, concealing the Vessels in a living
cloud, and making targeting them rather difficult. The Vessels have the Holofields quality I really like this too, should probably also be based off the ship cost as the more hits/better the armor the more effective this will become 10% rounded up?
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i will edit this later
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Oh sweet jesus my eyes...this reposting stuff is making this thread very hard to follow. Also, despite my earlier confusion, Living Hull (X) is and interesting mechanic. It's basically a port of It Will Not Die from W40K. Basically at every end step if the ship has no criticals you may roll a d6 for every 2 hull points remaining (round down): for every roll that exceeds the living hull value the ship regains 1 hit.
What do you guys think? Kind of cool and flavorful for nids, no?
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Each one may only be taken once by any squadron or ship.
Tyranid Evolutions
the following are exactly like the original tyranid list except for the potential for escort upgrades:
Solar Vanes - The ship or squadron gains +5cm speed. 10pts per capital ship and 5pts per escort just like AndrewChristlieb had it
Adrenaline Sacs - The ship gains +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders it should be 10 and 5. IN grand cruisers get the upgrade for 5 points.
Advanced Discharge Vents - The creature reduces the distance it needs to move before turning by 5cm. Not intended for escorts. 10pts 10pts seems right. This is a decent choice for 15cm moving hive ships
Extra Spore Cysts - The vessel gains 1 extra shield. May not be taken on escorts. 10pts
Accelerated Healing - The bio-ship has enhanced its ability to heal critical wounds, enabling capital ships to roll two extra dice in the End phase when attempting to repair critical damage. Not allowed on escorts. 10pts.
Drone Link - The creature maintains an unbroken link with the Vanguard drone ships and hive ships of the swarm. When within 15cm of a Vanguard drone ship, all pyro-acid batteries benefit from a left
shift on the Gunnery table (before all other modifiers). 20pts and 5pts per escort. 20pts like the old rules but making this available to escorts for 5pts makes sense. That will scale with the size of the escort squadron.
Tenacity - When on All Ahead Full, Burn Retros, or Come to New Heading special orders, the ship's pyro-acid batteries and bio-plasma weapons are unaffected. The cost of this upgrade is 10% of the vessels initial points cost rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5. AndrewChristlieb, your 10% and round up option for this upgrade is the best thought I have heard all day. You deserve a cookie. :D
the following are modified old evolutions
Psychic Scream - Any enemy vessels withing 30cm suffer -1Ld. Enemy ships can be effected by multiple psychic screams at once, to a maximum of -3ld. This may only be taken on hive ships. 20pts ...like the old psychic scream was. good call on the max of -3 rule
Reinforced Carapace - The ship gains +2 hits. Not allowed on escorts. 20pts ... just like the old evolutions but this restricts it to +2 hits ever.
Mucous Membrance - Bombers and assault boats suffer a -1 modifier (in addition to any other modifiers) when rolling their Attack roll, and all torpedoes must roll +1 to hit (maximum of 6+). Ranged weapon hits remain unaffected. The cost of this upgrade is 10% of the vessels initial points cost rounded up to the nearest 5's digit.I think we should use this pricing system because it is that much better on ships with more hits. Consider this on an adult hive.......
Mega-Spore Mines - Ships equipped with assault boat launch bays can exchange all their launch bays for spore mine launchers. Each launch bay can launch one mega-spore mine In the Ordnance phase Megaspore mines follow all movement and ordnance rules mines do on p.142 of the rulebook, but when rolling against armour to inflict hits, it inflicts that number of fire criticals instead. Not intended for escorts. The launch bay strength is replaced by spore mine launchers at a 1:1 ratio. This also costs +5pts per launch bay strength. 5pts per is a much more appropriate value. Orks get mines for 5pts per in FAQ2010 and their ships are the same speed. Also, these don't get the benefits of double launch capacity so it's even with Orks. True, these are fire criticals, but normal orbital mines that roll a hit cause a guaranteed damage whereas spore mines cause fire crits that can be repaired. In the long run, these have the potential to do more, but I think it evens out, if not the spore mines being a slight bit worse, certainly not worth 10pts each. EDIT: when looking at the BFG:R list now, most tyranid carrier HAVE spore mines in them and there are special rules for them. Maybe we should just drop this and make the rules for mega spore mines into the rules for the normal spore mines tyranid carriers come with (the fire criticals damage instead of normal damage)
newly invented one
Natural Killer Antibodies - The Fleet has evolved a more efficient Ordnance defense creature. Vessels add +1 to their Turrets Characteristic. +10pts per capital ship, +5 points per escort. turret upgrades for IN ships are 10pts so 10pts for capital ships and 5 per escort makes sense. I think this could be dropped if the hive ships just had this upgrade built into their stats for the correct points.
drop list
Hardened Myelin - The Fleet has increased the thickness of the myelin sheath around its dendrites, improving cognitive function. The vessel or squadron gains 1 re-roll, free of cost, that may only be used on that ship or squardon. 15pts. this is exactly like the eldar farseers from MMS and they are 15pts. I think this should be dropped and added to the fleet list as Hive Imperatives
Pheromone Rage - The Fleet has evolved a more powerful Hive Mind, and is able to plan attacks more
efficiently. The Fleet’s Attack Rating is increased by 1. May not be taken in an allied Fleet and may only be taken on a Hive ship or any kind. 10pts 10 points. many people do not use attack ratings so who cares, attack rating does not mean all that much, and it will take up valuable upgrade points. this isn't a necessary inclusion. Maybe something that can be in the fleet list?
Spore Cysts - The Fleet has evolved organs which release numerous spores, concealing the Vessels in a living cloud, and making targeting them rather difficult. The Vessels have the Holofields quality The cost of this upgrade is 10% of the vessels initial points cost rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5. this is super fluffy to me and I think it will be quite characterful in game. Let's drop it in favor of the original +1 shield option.
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Oh sweet jesus my eyes...this reposting stuff is making this thread very hard to follow.
HAHA right after I pressed post on my last brick of text, I saw that you posted this while I was writing it.
Also, despite my earlier confusion, Living Hull (X) is and interesting mechanic. It's basically a port of It Will Not Die from W40K. Basically at every end step if the ship has no criticals you may roll a d6 for every 2 hull points remaining (round down): for every roll that exceeds the living hull value the ship regains 1 hit.
What do you guys think? Kind of cool and flavorful for nids, no?
wait, if tyranids are living hull (1), won't they be regenerating tons of hits? How would that work out seeing that Tyranids have living hull (1)?
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Alright pricing seems good.
Living hull... Still sounds like crons, do they have this too? Please no... Lol. It wouldnt be too bad if it cannot be used when on special orders or crippled, especially when coupled with half hits and half again when blast markers are in contact.
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I also think we should add:
Extra Spore Cysts for 10pts, may only be taken once and not available to escorts. Essentially, instead of making this available to specific ships for the points cost, having this on the evolution chart makes it a more difficult option to take because ships will be constricted to how many evolutions they can take.
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Sorry, I'm kind of unsure of the interpretation...Living Hull is the amount of dice you get to roll, and it heals on a 6+ like crits. Really tired when I wrote that. :P
About the 10% cost, rounded up thing....first of, good idea Andrew. Really solid, and the rounding up part should have been in this game from the very beginning. However, since there are only a limited amount of capital ships in the 'nid fleet, that ruling needs to specify original cost, or esle we risk having the upgrades get exponentialy more expensive. Once we have ship prices worked out, how about we just toss out the 10% and add it in at its fixed value to avoid confusion?
Ex. We decide an adolescent hive ship is worth 220pts (just a random number). 10% rounded up is 25pts (or 20 if we round to closest), so we should list it as costing 25pts on this ship rather than 10%. Or to save space we specify "this upgrade cost 10% of the vessels base value, before other refits or evolutions".
@afterimagedan you mean restricted by evolutions they can take, right? ;D :P
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Somehow I feel uncomfortable rewriting a race in such a large way. This is a lot more then fixing stats/ships.
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I havent gone over all of the change plaxor had in there, what all do you not like? I know Im not too hot on thrm having shields... Spores were a welcome change to the norm and very fluffy.
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10% of total base cost after weapons have been selected. I cant claim credit either :/ thats the standard refit rule :D.
How about makin the random option worth taking? If you decide to take random evolutions the first one you roll is applied for free?
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Somehow I feel uncomfortable rewriting a race in such a large way. This is a lot more then fixing stats/ships.
Currently, I am bringing the old rules into the new BFGR Nids document. The changes will be ships stats, a couple new ships, and work out the evolutions problem. Its not that big of a change, especially compared to MMS. Either way, Tyranids reply need help and some decisions need to be made about the evolution stuff.
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Each one may only be taken once by any squadron or ship.
Tyranid Evolutions
the following are exactly like the original tyranid list except for the potential for escort upgrades:
Solar Vanes - The ship or squadron gains +5cm speed. 10pts per capital ship and 5pts per escort just like AndrewChristlieb had it
Adrenaline Sacs - The ship gains +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders it should be 10 and 5. IN grand cruisers get the upgrade for 5 points.
Advanced Discharge Vents - The creature reduces the distance it needs to move before turning by 5cm. Not intended for escorts. 10pts 10pts seems right. This is a decent choice for 15cm moving hive ships
Extra Spore Cysts - The vessel gains 1 extra shield. May not be taken on escorts. 10pts
Accelerated Healing - The bio-ship has enhanced its ability to heal critical wounds, enabling capital ships to roll two extra dice in the End phase when attempting to repair critical damage. Not allowed on escorts. 10pts.
Drone Link - The creature maintains an unbroken link with the Vanguard drone ships and hive ships of the swarm. When within 15cm of a Vanguard drone ship, all pyro-acid batteries benefit from a left
shift on the Gunnery table (before all other modifiers). 20pts and 5pts per escort. 20pts like the old rules but making this available to escorts for 5pts makes sense. That will scale with the size of the escort squadron.
Tenacity - When on All Ahead Full, Burn Retros, or Come to New Heading special orders, the ship's pyro-acid batteries and bio-plasma weapons are unaffected. The cost of this upgrade is 10% of the vessels initial points cost rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5. AndrewChristlieb, your 10% and round up option for this upgrade is the best thought I have heard all day. You deserve a cookie. :D
the following are modified old evolutions
Psychic Scream - Any enemy vessels withing 30cm suffer -1Ld. Enemy ships can be effected by multiple psychic screams at once, to a maximum of -3ld. This may only be taken on hive ships. 20pts ...like the old psychic scream was. good call on the max of -3 rule
Reinforced Carapace - The ship gains +2 hits. Not allowed on escorts. 20pts ... just like the old evolutions but this restricts it to +2 hits ever.
Mucous Membrance - Bombers and assault boats suffer a -1 modifier (in addition to any other modifiers) when rolling their Attack roll, and all torpedoes must roll +1 to hit (maximum of 6+). Ranged weapon hits remain unaffected. The cost of this upgrade is 10% of the vessels initial points cost rounded up to the nearest 5's digit.I think we should use this pricing system because it is that much better on ships with more hits. Consider this on an adult hive.......
Mega-Spore Mines - Ships equipped with assault boat launch bays can exchange all their launch bays for spore mine launchers. Each launch bay can launch one mega-spore mine In the Ordnance phase Megaspore mines follow all movement and ordnance rules mines do on p.142 of the rulebook, but when rolling against armour to inflict hits, it inflicts that number of fire criticals instead. Not intended for escorts. The launch bay strength is replaced by spore mine launchers at a 1:1 ratio. This also costs +5pts per launch bay strength. 5pts per is a much more appropriate value. Orks get mines for 5pts per in FAQ2010 and their ships are the same speed. Also, these don't get the benefits of double launch capacity so it's even with Orks. True, these are fire criticals, but normal orbital mines that roll a hit cause a guaranteed damage whereas spore mines cause fire crits that can be repaired. In the long run, these have the potential to do more, but I think it evens out, if not the spore mines being a slight bit worse, certainly not worth 10pts each. EDIT: when looking at the BFG:R list now, most tyranid carrier HAVE spore mines in them and there are special rules for them. Maybe we should just drop this and make the rules for mega spore mines into the rules for the normal spore mines tyranid carriers come with (the fire criticals damage instead of normal damage)
newly invented one
Natural Killer Antibodies - The Fleet has evolved a more efficient Ordnance defense creature. Vessels add +1 to their Turrets Characteristic. +10pts per capital ship, +5 points per escort. turret upgrades for IN ships are 10pts so 10pts for capital ships and 5 per escort makes sense. I think this could be dropped if the hive ships just had this upgrade built into their stats for the correct points.
drop list
Hardened Myelin - The Fleet has increased the thickness of the myelin sheath around its dendrites, improving cognitive function. The vessel or squadron gains 1 re-roll, free of cost, that may only be used on that ship or squardon. 15pts. this is exactly like the eldar farseers from MMS and they are 15pts. I think this should be dropped and added to the fleet list as Hive Imperatives
Pheromone Rage - The Fleet has evolved a more powerful Hive Mind, and is able to plan attacks more
efficiently. The Fleet’s Attack Rating is increased by 1. May not be taken in an allied Fleet and may only be taken on a Hive ship or any kind. 10pts 10 points. many people do not use attack ratings so who cares, attack rating does not mean all that much, and it will take up valuable upgrade points. this isn't a necessary inclusion. Maybe something that can be in the fleet list?
Spore Cysts - The Fleet has evolved organs which release numerous spores, concealing the Vessels in a living cloud, and making targeting them rather difficult. The Vessels have the Holofields quality The cost of this upgrade is 10% of the vessels initial points cost rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5. this is super fluffy to me and I think it will be quite characterful in game. Let's drop it in favor of the original +1 shield option.
I'm quoting this to try to reduce the size? Maybe it works that way? I think we should keep it to 12 evolutions; the 11 original ones with some small modifications, and the extra one for the turret (which could be worked into the hive profiles).
-"Hardened Myelin" should be what "Hive Imperatives" become, those stupid old useless upgrades that were so not worth the points.
-"Pheromone Rage;" cool idea but if it's included, let's include it in the fleet list.
-"Spore Cysts," the Holofield version, can just be dropped. Let's go back to the original one.
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Ok so spores are shields without the extra fluff and turrets have their own seperate value now?
Why do nids get +1 shield for 10 pts, Chaos (Repulsive) and Space Marines (Strike) for +15 pts and Orks for +25pts (fleet list, but should be a standard option)? Shouldnt there be a set value across all the fleets for upgrades like this? 25pts is a lot better than 10 or even 15, extra shields are a gimmie on the strike cruisers and will be with nids too if they stay at 10.
Spore mines should just be mines IMO, nids have enough ways to cause crits but they have no ordionance that causes damage.
I think im ok with this so far.
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Ok so spores are shields without the extra fluff and turrets have their own seperate value now?
Why do nids get +1 shield for 10 pts, Chaos (Repulsive) and Space Marines (Strike) for +15 pts and Orks for +25pts (fleet list, but should be a standard option)? Shouldnt there be a set value across all the fleets for upgrades like this? 25pts is a lot better than 10 or even 15, extra shields are a gimmie on the strike cruisers and will be with nids too if they stay at 10.
Spore mines should just be mines IMO, nids have enough ways to cause crits but they have no ordionance that causes damage.
I think im ok with this so far.
Hmm, I see your point about the shield upgrade; I was just keeping it the same point value they had it on the evolution chart from the original Nids. Personally, I think it should just be fitted into the profile. The Adolescent hive ship with a 4th shield written in, looking at the double pyrobattery version, is 260.8pts based on smotherman. At 220, like it is on the BFG:R tyranid alpha list, is way too low on the point scale. starting it at 260 and it gets LD8 built in like the old rules seems the best for the adolescent hive.
Spore mines, as written, are just taken directly from the old Nids document. I don't see the need to change it (personally, your idea is fine but i'm indifferent. I would rather let my indifferent votes go to staying with the original rules).
How many evolutions can each ship take? 3 for adult and adolescent, 2 per light cruiser, 1 per escort squad at 1 upgrade allowed per 750pts?
How should the Tyranid boarding rules be? I am assuming we are keeping the original 2d6, discard the highest, and double boarding value? They used to have a rule where you put a blast marker into contact with your vessel and the enemy vessel when you came into base contact. I thought that was a clunky and pointless rule. But, it did benefit the tyranids in boarding by +1.
Juvenile Hive smothermans to 157.5 but will have a few knocked off because of "massive" quality (meaning cannot use CTNH special orders). This is when I have it at 5+ armor.
Leviathan Prowler smothermans (yes, it's a verb) to 64 pts, and adding the highlighter quality that the vanguard drones get, seems like it would bring it to 70, there it's at now.
Emergent drone ship smothermans correctly at 60 pts. I think this is an awesome ship for tyranids to have for transports.
Kraken predators should just be made how they used to be, exactly. The new kraken predator with 6wbs is way too much firepower for a 40pt ship. 3 massive claws as well.
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Seems like a lot of good ideas, guys. About the kraken, though...I have always liked it a lot, but it always seemed odd to me that it was the only ship in the game other then necrons to use this rule. Outside of adding multiple hit escorts I can't see a way of getting rid of it's odd BFI thing. It could come with the holofield standard, but then that does not keep it resilient to ordnance. Any suggestion or am I just a big fluffy whinner? :'(
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Seems like a lot of good ideas, guys. About the kraken, though...I have always liked it a lot, but it always seemed odd to me that it was the only ship in the game other then necrons to use this rule. Outside of adding multiple hit escorts I can't see a way of getting rid of it's odd BFI thing. It could come with the holofield standard, but then that does not keep it resilient to ordnance. Any suggestion or am I just a big fluffy whinner? :'(
Nah, you are right. I just don't want to go the holofield route with anyone but Eldar; that's their thing. However, the 4+ save for shields is definitely a necron thing. Personally, I am totally fine with them having two hits or keeping the original 4+ save rules (though, they don't get the 2+ save when actually on BFI >:( ).
I propose we give them the old profile and either keep it how it has always been, or give them a shield and hit point instead of the 4+ save. Personally, if we are going to go with the 2 hits for larger escort route, which I am totally fine with, I think we should include them in that but I don't think they can have the 2nd hit while also having the 4+ save thing. It should go back to a plain old shield.
I have the Tyranid list sitting there ready to be worked on. I would like to make some decisions so we can build on them. At this point, the Tyranid fleet is a huge mess. I know Horizon doesn't feel great about reworking something so much but honestly, Tyranids really need the help. We can't just leave them without any clarification on the evolution table stuff (can they take them in every game? only in campaigns? if they can, what restricts people from taking 2 uberhives?). Also, all is lost has to go. It's such a bad rule to have and makes people not want to play Tyranids when doing well in the game (killing enemies and boarding them) gets your ships killed by people self-destructing (and they are only allowed to self-destruct against Tyranids, and not Khorne berzerkers or Necrons?? :o ).
Here are some of the votes we need to take:
-keep the tendrils on Tyranid ships or drop them
-should we keep the ships from BFG:R? we may have to vote on them individually
-vote on the revised evolution table (which is probably the first vote needed)
-vote on a fleet list (probably at the end)
Let's work on getting this evolution list approved. two posts earlier, I posted our progress. Does anyone see any changes that need to be made to the list before we vote and proceed? Around half of them are the same as the old evolutions.
(side note, how many days do you guys think voting needs to go for? Most of the votes are entered in the first 2 days)
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Good good, at least i'm not alone in thinking 4+ is weird for the bugs....all is lost is the worst rule ever, it definately has to go.
Not as bad as two hits, but a lot of people are against 2 shield escorts...and it still doesn't protect as much against against ordnance vs. the save.
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Good good, at least i'm not alone in thinking 4+ is weird for the bugs....all is lost is the worst rule ever, it definately has to go.
Not as bad as two hits, but a lot of people are against 2 shield escorts...and it still doesn't protect as much against against ordnance vs. the save.
True, but the 2 hit kraken would not have 0 turrets anymore.
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Tyranid Evolutions
Each one may only be taken once by any squadron or ship. All ships in an escort squadron must take the same evolutions.
Solar Vanes - The ship or squadron gains +5cm speed.
10 pts for capital ships and 5 pts each for escorts.
Adrenaline Sacs - The ship gains +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders.
5 pts.
Advanced Discharge Vents - The creature reduces the distance it needs to move before turning by 5cm.
May not be taken on escorts. 10 pts.
Extra Spore Cysts - The vessel gains 1 extra shield.
May not be taken on escorts. 10 pts.
Accelerated Healing - The bio-ship has enhanced its ability to heal critical wounds, enabling capital ships to roll two extra dice in the End phase when attempting to repair critical damage.
May not be taken on escorts. 10 pts.
Drone Link - The creature maintains an unbroken link with the Vanguard drone ships and hive ships of the swarm. When within 15cm of a Vanguard drone ship, all pyro-acid batteries benefit from a left
shift on the Gunnery table (before all other modifiers).
20 pts for capital ships and 5 pts each for escorts.
Tenacity - When on All Ahead Full, Burn Retros, or Come to New Heading special orders, the ship's pyro-acid batteries and bio-plasma weapons are unaffected.
Capitol ships and escorts may take this evolution at +10% of their base point value (rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5) after weapons have been selected, but before any other modifiers.
Psychic Scream - Any enemy vessels withing 30cm suffer -1Ld. Enemy ships can be effected by multiple psychic screams at once, to a maximum of -3ld.
Hive ships may take this evolution for 20 pts.
Reinforced Carapace - The ship gains +2 hits.
May not be taken on escorts. 20pts
Mucous Membrance - Bombers and assault boats suffer a -1 modifier (in addition to any other modifiers) when rolling their Attack roll, and all torpedoes must roll +1 to hit (maximum of 6+). Ranged weapon hits remain unaffected.
Capitol ships and escorts may take this evolution at +10% of their base point value (rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5) after weapons have been selected, but before any other modifiers.
Natural Killer Antibodies - The Fleet has evolved a more efficient Ordnance defense creature. Vessels add +1 to their Turrets Characteristic.
+10pts for capital ships and +5 points each for escorts.
Mega-Spore Mines - Ships equipped with assault boat launch bays can exchange all their launch bays for spore mine launchers. Each launch bay can launch one mega-spore mine In the Ordnance phase. Megaspore mines follow all movement and ordnance rules mines do on p.142 of the rulebook, but when rolling against armour to inflict hits, it inflicts that number of fire criticals instead.
May not be taken on escorts. +5pts per point of launch bay strength.
EDIT: when looking at the BFG:R list now, most tyranid carrier HAVE spore mines in them and there are special rules for them. Maybe we should just drop this and make the rules for mega spore mines into the rules for the normal spore mines tyranid carriers come with (the fire criticals damage instead of normal damage)
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Ok so the current list - any comments for viewing.
Issues I have:
Extra shields are underpriced. 25pts would be ideal imo.
Psychic Scream seems more like it should be an upgrade option listed on the Hive Ships profile instead of the Evolution chart, limited to the larger hives (Im thinking 10 hits+)
Mega-Spore Mines should be the only mine option for ships. I would remove references to mines that are already on ships profiles.
If there is an option for random Evolutions, bar adding more like the standard refit tables, then I think 11 should be the maximum # (2-12 on 2D6). I would also like to see there being a benifit to taking random evolutions such as being able to take the first randomly generated result for free.
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Ok so the current list - any comments for viewing.
Issues I have:
Extra shields are underpriced. 25pts would be ideal imo.
Smotherman has an additional shield for 10pts, the old evolution has the additional shield for 10pts, the extra shield for the Repulsive is 15pts, Strike cruiser for 15pts. 25pts seems like a bit much. it could just be made an option for the adolescent hive so there aren't any 6 shield adult hives running around.
Psychic Scream seems more like it should be an upgrade option listed on the Hive Ships profile instead of the Evolution chart, limited to the larger hives (Im thinking 10 hits+)
what makes you feel like it should just be a ship upgrade? I think it fits in the evolution chart quite well. Also, having it in the hive ship's profile means it will be able to be taken on top of maximum evolution upgrades.
Mega-Spore Mines should be the only mine option for ships. I would remove references to mines that are already on ships profiles.
I totally see what you are going there. Basically, let's make spore mines into fire crit mines and drop the mega-spore mines altogether. Totally agree now that I understood what you meant.
If there is an option for random Evolutions, bar adding more like the standard refit tables, then I think 11 should be the maximum # (2-12 on 2D6). I would also like to see there being a benifit to taking random evolutions such as being able to take the first randomly generated result for free.
Agreed completely. Would the random evolutions just be for campaigns?
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Im not so much worried about 6 shield hives floating around as getting a fair price. 15 points on a strike cruiser is silly, no one takes the ship without them now. With the repulsive there is at least a down fall. Orks pay 25 pts just to bring their ships up to what they should have anyway and then only if they take an overpriced character. Hulks pay 50 pts (a good option for any ship over a certain hit points). So why do nids get these for 10? It makes no sense.
2 reasons for making the scream a hive upgrade instead of an evolution: 1 its only for a specific type of ship, if it was capitol ships only ok but its hives only so just putting it on their options works. 2 there are currently 12 evolutions and for a random selection 11 would be ideal at this point. Assuming we dont add more of course. :D
I see no reason for random evolutions to be campaign only, the chart layout should be worked a bit differently for the randomness of it all tho ;).
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Im not so much worried about 6 shield hives floating around as getting a fair price. 15 points on a strike cruiser is silly, no one takes the ship without them now. With the repulsive there is at least a down fall. Orks pay 25 pts just to bring their ships up to what they should have anyway and then only if they take an overpriced character. Hulks pay 50 pts (a good option for any ship over a certain hit points). So why do nids get these for 10? It makes no sense.
I agree but making it 25pts just because orks have it for 25pts isn't a good reason. If anything, we should reduce it for orks. we could make it 20pts for battleships and 15pts for cruisers (depending on if they have 2 or 1 in their profile)
2 reasons for making the scream a hive upgrade instead of an evolution: 1 its only for a specific type of ship, if it was capitol ships only ok but its hives only so just putting it on their options works. 2 there are currently 12 evolutions and for a random selection 11 would be ideal at this point. Assuming we dont add more of course. :D
Hmm, good points. Alright, I'll buy it.
I see no reason for random evolutions to be campaign only, the chart layout should be worked a bit differently for the randomness of it all tho ;).
Agreed. I like the idea. You can take the risk and get one for free but it may not be what you wanted originally.
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Ok so for shields can we see a universal ruling of say upto 10 hits 15 points, upto 20 hits 20/25 points over 20 hits 50 points?
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I just think jumping to 25pts from the old 10pts and the option to take more than one, it a bit too much. 20pts, fine. I just think it should be off limits to anything over an adolescent, mainly off limits to an adult hive. For Tyranids, it seems like escorts should not be able to get it, light cruisers and cruiser 15pts, and adolescent 20pts.
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Ok, its not like the bigger bugs dont already have sufficient shields.
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Ok, its not like the bigger bugs dont already have sufficient shields.
So Tyranid players have to choose between a grand cruiser/battleship with 3 shields and a 30 hit, 5 shield hulk? That's lame.
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I think you misunderstand me. When i said the bigger bugs have suffecient shields i was refering to the adult hives. Of course the battleship and smaller vessels should retain the ability to gain an additional shield. I dont think it would be such a big deal for battleships to have the same price as cruisers tho. If its a set 15 points for a shield thats fine, i dont even know if it would be that big of a deal for the space hulk seeing as even with +1 it would still only have 4 total.
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I think you misunderstand me. When i said the bigger bugs have suffecient shields i was refering to the adult hives. Of course the battleship and smaller vessels should retain the ability to gain an additional shield. I dont think it would be such a big deal for battleships to have the same price as cruisers tho. If its a set 15 points for a shield thats fine, i dont even know if it would be that big of a deal for the space hulk seeing as even with +1 it would still only have 4 total.
Gotcha. Though, the adult hive (if that's what you mean by hulk) has 5 shields right now. So let's put it at 15pts, no escorts, no adult hive. Sound good?
I see what Plaxor was doing; he made Massive Claws into 1D6 attacks each and upped the number of claws each vessel has. Let's keep the old version.
SHIPS
Adult Hive - No idea yet though from what I am calculating, it's a ways underpriced.
Adolescent Hive - Smothermans out to 250 with 5+ armor. That is where I would put it.
-Juvenile Hive smothermans to 157.5 but will have a few knocked off because of "massive" quality (meaning cannot use CTNH special orders). This is when I have it at 5+ armor. 155pts.
-Kraken Carnivore - This smothermans out to 110 with 5+ armor (not 5+/4+ rear) and switching to the old massive claws would mean that we should have 1 dorsal and 1 keep (not 2 and 2)
-Leviathan Prowler smothermans (yes, it's a verb) to 64 pts, and adding the highlighter quality that the vanguard drones get, seems like it would bring it to 70, where it's at now.
-Emergent drone ship smothermans correctly at 60 pts. I think this is an awesome ship for tyranids to have for transports.
-Kraken predators. The question is, do we make it 2 hits & 1 shield? 2 hits, 4+save? 1 hit, 4=save? I think the weapon profiles have to change because we are not using plaxors massive claw rules but the old version (I assume). Deathburner breed is fine. Ramsmiter should be feeder tendrils 1, massive claws 1, pyroacid 2. Comparing it with the old points costs, that should make them at even points.
-Leviathan Vanguard profile is fine. Very similar to the old Vanguard.
-Drone Escort should be 25pts with 5+ armor, the pyroacid option should have 4 pyroacid, not 3, the bioplasma option should have 2 bioplasma, not 1. This makes it closer to the old version.
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If there is an option for random Evolutions, bar adding more like the standard refit tables, then I think 11 should be the maximum # (2-12 on 2D6). I would also like to see there being a benifit to taking random evolutions such as being able to take the first randomly generated result for free.
Also, we need to make sure the random evolution chart is in the same order the old chart is because some numbers on 2D6 will come up more often than others. Hold me to that.
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Im all for the 25pts idea...and the psychic scream as hive ship upgrade.
Are we keeping the cruiser kraken from BFG:R?
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Yeah, that's the kraken carnivore. I think we need to add back the torpedo option because I know people really like the torpedo kraken option.
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Even with boarding torps only, it is a real cool design admittedly. It always seemed very aggressively costed for its firepower versus other nid capitals, which is probably why it was popular. Also, 15pt shields for cruisers seem fine, although still seems like almost an auto-buy. Mind you, anything higher is unreasonable. Also, orks should have cheaper upgrades for their shields.
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Alight, after comparing a bunch of point stuff and smotherman formulas for the Adult Hive, I am convinced that it's the right point cost, actually, maybe over points. BUT, that's ok. Basically, 480pts is a rounded up cost of 476.1 and is NOT accounting for the lack of a turn or having a 4+ save. But, I think it's fair to not count that knowing that it has unreasonable hits and shields.
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Fair enough...by 4+save I presume you mean 4+ armor?
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Fair enough...by 4+save I presume you mean 4+ armor?
Yep
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Are you guys alright with me attempting to make a document with mostly just the old Tyranid rules with some of the new tweaks we have been talking about? Then, you guys will have a document to check out and we can take some votes after more discussion.
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That sounds good too me. Gives us a place to build from.
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If there is an option for random Evolutions, bar adding more like the standard refit tables, then I think 11 should be the maximum # (2-12 on 2D6). I would also like to see there being a benifit to taking random evolutions such as being able to take the first randomly generated result for free.
How would we word this in the rules? I think this is an awesome inclusion but how would we make it work? How about:
"If you evolve any adolescent or adult hive ship with two evolutions, you may roll 2D6 for a third evolution on the chart for free instead of purchasing a third."
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Also, we only have 10 evolutions now and we need 11 for the randomness chart. Mega Spore Mines? Psychic Scream?
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Psychic Scream for me, why not make spore mines an option for ships with LB's?
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Bessemer has it right; keep spore mines in line with other fleets, bring psychic scream in. For added benefit, it could have an effect kinda like the sepulcher, that being that the psychic echo destroys/maddens any ordnance other than non-manned torpedoes? Just an idea...
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Whats the point tho? adding it in as a random option seems rather pointless, you might as well say reroll this result. That aside one or the other (psy or mines) seems to be the options, unless you wanted to add a rule such as "A roll of 12 allows you to choose your desired refit, if this is your first randomly selected refit you may choose your desired refit and receive it at no additional cost."
I still think the Psychic scream would be better represented either in the hive ship rules (as they are for hives only) or as a "fleet commander" upgrade similar to the necron sepulchre. The mines however also feel better represented in the same manner, as an option any (non adult or adolescent) launch equiped ships may take.
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If there is an option for random Evolutions, bar adding more like the standard refit tables, then I think 11 should be the maximum # (2-12 on 2D6). I would also like to see there being a benifit to taking random evolutions such as being able to take the first randomly generated result for free.
How would we word this in the rules? I think this is an awesome inclusion but how would we make it work? How about:
"If you evolve any adolescent or adult hive ship with two evolutions, you may roll 2D6 for a third evolution on the chart for free instead of purchasing a third."
These refits can be incorporated by capitol ships or escorts except where specifically noted otherwise for the cost indicated. If you roll a duplicate refit, or a refit the ship is unable to take, roll again until until you get a result the ship does not already benifit from. No single bio-enhancement may be selected more than once. No ship may ever have more more special refits than listed in their profile. This can be changed if incorrect but it seemed a good placeholder at least.
*If a degree of randomness is desired the following refits can be selected by rolling 2D6 and comparing the result to the Bio-enhancement chart. If you choose to select your refits randomly the first result will be applied for no increase in points, it will still count against the maximum number of refits allowed. You may only choose to randomly select all or none of your refits, no receiving one free refit then choosing the rest!
How does this sound?
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If there is an option for random Evolutions, bar adding more like the standard refit tables, then I think 11 should be the maximum # (2-12 on 2D6). I would also like to see there being a benifit to taking random evolutions such as being able to take the first randomly generated result for free.
How would we word this in the rules? I think this is an awesome inclusion but how would we make it work? How about:
"If you evolve any adolescent or adult hive ship with two evolutions, you may roll 2D6 for a third evolution on the chart for free instead of purchasing a third."
These refits can be incorporated by capitol ships or escorts except where specifically noted otherwise for the cost indicated. If you roll a duplicate refit, or a refit the ship is unable to take, roll again until until you get a result the ship does not already benifit from. No single bio-enhancement may be selected more than once. No ship may ever have more more special refits than listed in their profile. This can be changed if incorrect but it seemed a good placeholder at least.
*If a degree of randomness is desired the following refits can be selected by rolling 2D6 and comparing the result to the Bio-enhancement chart. If you choose to select your refits randomly the first result will be applied for no increase in points, it will still count against the maximum number of refits allowed. You may only choose to randomly select all or none of your refits, no receiving one free refit then choosing the rest!
How does this sound?
I like it. Any reason why you would do ALL random and not just 1? I will move mega spore mines and psychic scream into the fleet list when I get to it. Your idea that says that when you roll a 12, you get to reroll and get it for free is an awesome one. I'll switch to that.
Here is the document so far: (I have a lot more work to do on it)
++BFG:R Tyranid Hive Fleets++ (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1596994/BFGR%202/BFGR%20Tyranid%20Hive%20Fleets.pdf)
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Ya, the whole reason for getting on refit for free is that you dont get to pick your refits. If you can get a free refit and choose the ones you want (at least on the bigger ships) it takes away from the intent behind a free refit.
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So if you are going to random route, you could choose to have only 1 refit and it would be free? So basically, you can always get a stock hive ship with a free evolution? I see what you are going for but I think we may need to add a sentence or two adding more restrictions. We should say that they can choose random or not random. If they choose random, they get their first roll free but must roll for and pay for at least 1 more evolution.
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Now what i intended was: ship x can take say 3 refits for the cost indicated or you can randomly select those refits and if you do so your first one is free.
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While were at it whats everyone elses thoughts on this? Id hate for BFG-R nids to become the pimento loaf sandwich of 2012...
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Now what i intended was: ship x can take say 3 refits for the cost indicated or you can randomly select those refits and if you do so your first one is free.
Gotcha, so it is restricted to a hive taking 3 upgrades. You can take 3 paid for it risk the first one and get it for free.
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Great idea, but I'm not sure about the application...feels gimmicky, sorty of like the free ork refit in klanz document.
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Great idea, but I'm not sure about the application...feels gimmicky, sorty of like the free ork refit in klanz document.
I think it's kind of cool because it allows you to take a gamble. Yes, kinda gimmicky but adds a nice option for Tyranid players.
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Sounds like the biomorphs are pretty much sewn up. Has there been any work on streamlining the whole Instinctive behaviour process? I haven't had time to go through the original BFG:R 'Nids document yet, does that have a better system?
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Alright, the document according to afterimagedan is done and ready for proof-reading and comments. A few things to notice:
-Leadership is the original Tyranid way.
-Synapse is the original Tyranid way.
-Instinctive Behaviour is the original Tyranid way.
-Escort restrictions and necessities is in the 2010 Tyranid way.
-Drone "protector" quality is in the original 2010 Tyranid way.
-Kraken, besides the 2nd hit and some small weapon tweaks, is in the original Tyranid way.
-Special rules in the original Tyranid way.
-Massive Claws back to the original Tyranid way.
-I used the new evolution chart we came up with and put it in the same order at the old tyranid chart.
-All Is Lost dropped.
-Bioplasma and Feeder Tendrils are in the BFR:R version.
-Spore Mines are now Mega Spire Mines (in AndrewChristlieb fashion). I unfortunately had to put it in the profile in a weird way because of formatting nightmares (I may be able to change it later on if people REALLY hate it).
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Sounds like the biomorphs are pretty much sewn up. Has there been any work on streamlining the whole Instinctive behaviour process? I haven't had time to go through the original BFG:R 'Nids document yet, does that have a better system?
Honestly, in each game I have played with Tyranids, I have had to keep the chart next to me in case instinctive behavior happens. Unless with mega-simplify things, which I don't see happening, we will always have to have the chart there and the original one isn't all that bad. At one point, we were play-testing a different synapse rule that was written like this:
"-If a ship/squadron is outside synapse range or it failed their Command check, it must do it's best to turn towards the nearest synapse ship and end it’s movement as close as possible to it. Ships on instinctive behavior move after all other ships have finished moving. If there are no synapse ships on the table, the ship/squadron must move half of it’s movement forward.
-If the ships are going to run into any scenery besides planets, you may use Come to New Heading or Burn Retros special orders to avoid them and get as close as possible to the nearest synapse creature without entering the scenery. If there are no synapse creatures, you may use these special orders to avoid scenery but the ship/squadron must move half of it’s movement.
-If you did not have to use Come to New Heading or Burn Retros, you may reload ordinance on LD7. You must still attempt to get as close as possible to the nearest synapse creature or move half of your move forward if there are none.
-No creatures on Instinctive Behavior may use their weaponry that turn.."
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Your luck must be better than mine! :)
It's just that it's a long process of rolling for all your units (especially for Escort heavy fleets) INCLUDING Hive Ships (that's Bull**** right there, imagine rolling for Hive Tyrants in 40K!)! I found it both boring for me AND my opponent. Not to mention that a couple of turns bad luck left you dead in the water (ether?) and properly on the back foot for the rest of the game.
I kind of prefer your House rules to be fair; personally I scrapped the whole processes and went with:
All Nid ships have the Ld of the Nearest Hive ship (Highest if more than one)
10 for Celestial Phenomena
5 otherwise
Crippled units outside of Synapse must try to disengage (you could use an Imperative to ignore this)
In truth I scrapped my 'Nids soon afterwards and went with a Tau fleet instead, so these rules didn't get thoroughly developed.
I'd like to see something along the lines of the current 40k Instinctive behaviour, with Feed and Lurk, but this would require designing and testing, and could just end up with a re-organised table as is already (a table for each type? No Thanks!)
Ok, I've rambled buy you see my point! Someone said during the whole NC thread that games should be FUN. To, me this isn't!
If you can get IB to work for you, than your luckier than I am, or I've missed something. 'coz it's never worked in my favour.
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I think we should just keep the old rules but add a rule that says that hive ships don't suffer from instinctive behavior and function just like normal ships. That way, the old IB chart still applies, just not for synapse creatures.
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That does make more sense, still not a fan of the IB system as is tho. Everyone's a critic about something ;)
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Here's a link to the Tyranid document:
++BFG:R Tyranid Hive Fleet++ (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1596994/BFGR%202/BFGR%20Tyranid%20Hive%20Fleets.pdf)
Please let me know what you think. I am really happy with how it turned out!
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Looks Good!
Couple of typo's tho-
When fire arcs are mentioned, Right is always written ri ht
On the fleet list, Psychic scream is written psychic stream. Also it gives the cost to increase Ld of Hiveships, and thenagain as an upgrade lower down.
Other than that it looks fine to me, Still grumbling about IB tho :P
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Purdy, Im guessing this ones ready for playtesting then?
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Looks Good!
Couple of typo's tho-
When fire arcs are mentioned, Right is always written ri ht
On the fleet list, Psychic scream is written psychic stream. Also it gives the cost to increase Ld of Hiveships, and thenagain as an upgrade lower down.
Other than that it looks fine to me, Still grumbling about IB tho :P
I will check those out. The "ri ht" issue is probably the font not loading but I will check into it.
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Fixed.
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Just realised that the Critical chart has no entry for dorsal and keel weapons! I'm assuming keel replaces thorax, would Dorsal replace Spore cysts injured?
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Let's make Thorax (6) into Keell, Spore Cysts Ruptured (10) into Shields (as they are now), and Spore Cysts Injured (2) into Dorsal Damage. Good eye! Sound good?
Also, Damaged Discharge Vents needs to move back to -10 move to make Dark Eldar leech torpedoes work against Tyranids.
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Ok, I made this change to the critical chart. Check it out and let me know what you think.
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port and starboard... cant seem to find any ships that have these armaments? Theyre all Prow, Dorsal, Keel
How about making 9 permanent, making 2 a temporary version of 9 similar to eldar and adjusting the weapons down.
2: Synapse Disrupted. The nerve bundles which connect the ship
to the Hive Mind are badly damaged. The bio-ship cannot
have its instinctual orders overridden by the Hive Mind until
the damage is repaired.
3: Dorsal armament wounded. A large tear in the vessel’s dorsal
prevents its weapons discharging. The ship may not use its
dorsal weapons until the damage is repaired.
4: Keel armament wounded. A large tear in the vessel’s keel
prevents its weapons discharging. The ship may not use its keel
weapons until the damage is repaired.
5: Prow armament wounded. The bio-ship’s prow is ripped
open. Its prow armament may not used until it has been
repaired.
6: Manuvering vents wounded. Many of the small
biological valves that manoeuvre the ship through the ether are
crippled. The bio-ship cannot make any turns until the damage is repaired. +1
7: Heavy wound! Internal organs are ruptured and massive
bleeding weakens the vessel. Roll to repair the heavy
wound in the End phase, if the wound is not repaired it
causes 1 point of extra damage and keeps bleeding.
8: Discharge vents wounded. One of the huge
biological valves that manoeuvre the ship through the ether are
crippled. The bio-ship moves at -10cm movement until
repaired. +1
9: Synapse severed. The nerve bundles which connect the ship
to the Hive Mind are destroyed. The bio-ship cannot
have its instinctual orders overridden by the Hive Mind for the rest of the game.
This damage cannot be repaired.
10: Spore cysts ruptured. The ship’s shields suffer larvae failure
and seal up. The bio-ship may no longer use its shields.
This damage cannot be repaired.
11: Severe wound. A huge gash is torn in the ship’s hull, vital fluids
freezing instantly as they spill into the void. +D3
12: Massive haemorrhage. The armoured hide of the ship
suffers immense damage, spraying alien ichor far into the void.
Make a bio-plasma attack with Strength 1 against any other
target within 2D6cm. Holofields do not protect against this
damage. +D6
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port and starboard... cant seem to find any ships that have these armaments? Theyre all Prow, Dorsal, Keel
Hmm, yeah. :o The original Tyranids only had a select few that were P/S. We could lump some of the 2D6 results together to make dorsal, prow, and keel more likely in their place.
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Keel (currently 6) can more to 3 in favor of adding back in Engine Room Smashed. Synapse Severed (currently 9) can more to 4 in favor of adding in Bridge Smashed (though I don't know how that will work for non-synapse creatures).
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Heh thats pretty much what I was thinking ^.
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Solar Vanes (+5cm move) are 10pts, 5pts for escorts.
Adrenaline Sacs (+1d6 on AAF) are 1-pts, 5pts for escorts. This doesn't add up. Having a guaranteed +5cm every turn is much better than solar vanes.
I propose we make solar vanes +2D6cm for AAH and keep them the same point value.
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Presumably you mean adrenaline sacs +2d6 and solar vanes being better than adrenalines sacs as written? Also, you are right. +2d6 is the way to go with these, unless they are somehow cheaper.
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Yeah, I said the wrong evolution. Adrenaline sacs at +2d6 and Solar Vanes where they are.
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+2D6 is a big deal tho, that pushes the average boost over 20cm when not on instinct.
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Here's my argument...
The average AAF is 14cm. The Adrenal Sacs add 7cm average to that total. That is an extra 7cm average that is added ONLY when they use AAF. Solar Vanes add +5cm to your movement that you can use every turn even when not on special orders. That's what 2D6 makes more sense. It averages 2cm higher than the Solar Vanes +5cm but you have to use special orders to do it.
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I just came but after 5 months of inactivity and what I found?
New Tyranid rules including my concept of planet devourer...
(http://marcianos.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/ilusion-face.jpg)
Dude I definitively take my tyranids again and adapt them to this new codex, awesome.
In 2 week my tyranids come to my new place in Hamburg and I will open a post for people to make and adapt tyranids vessels with out using warriors heads :-\
I think we may put also some ideas for defences, terrain and missions
Shall I post them here or should I send the ideas directly to you?
Just one thing to the new rules, you should not aboit tyranids player to use the massive claws while using all ahead full, It allows the tyranid player to use them while ramming.
I am not sure but maybe is to strong ;).
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Awesome! Glad to have more people excited about the less popular fleets. At this point, we are just working on the fleet lists and the ships. Later on, we will be more open to talking about terrain and missions, etc. If you have some ideas for defenses, feel free to post them.
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I may just have to resurect my 'Nid fleet project at this rate :)
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Let see let see.
I have studied a bit the codex ;)
I have found an error in the fleet list.
HIVE SHIPS
Each Adult or Adolescent hive ship allows the
Tyranid player to purchase 6-12 escort ships and
0-3 capital ships.
CAPITAL SHIPS
You may include up to 2 capital ships for each hive
ship in the fleet
Otherwise the codex look great.
things missing.
Defences(i will thing on them to help you afteri)
Fireship.(It apears in 2010 corrections)
My proposal is just and scorch drone with 1 batery, 1 tentacle and fireship rules. Of course in the defence tyranid list or 1 per hiveship for example.
And I don't see the rules for spores in contac with ships, the one that makes you place a blas marker it you touch a tyranid ship, I think It was one of the most self-caracteristic of the tyranids.
Anyways good job dudes
One question after, where do you get the format of the battlefleet gothic codex?
I would like to help the comunity writing one non exacly realed with rules, more focus on special features rather
than como rules.
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One thing guys, I was thinking looking at wh40K wiki, they have for tyranids an explanation that doesn't mach with battlefleet gothic, but indeed It is good.
The ship in question is the Narval, it is supposed to be a short of worm hole opener, meaning tyranids don't have warp travel but something a bit less fast.
Well I didn't like it at the beginning specially the stupid idea that using a gravitational worm-hole would produce earthquakes in the planet.
But if we just erase that it would mach well, as tyranids ships doesn't have shields they cannot warp travel, indeed Dominus Astra(if I remember well) killed Behemoth's planet devourer(mature central hive ship) detonating it warp drives.
But anyways I will rewrite the definition and the background of the ship this week end and if people like it we can vote :)
Narvals in concept have no abilities or weapons in game, but can be used as transport in a transport mission.
Concerning defenses I have been thinking and there is no sense in creating rules for static defenses for tyranids but if tyranids defenses were terrain? That would be very interesting and would make tynanids unique.
Ideas I am thinking and actually I will post photos soon.
Kraken nidus or krakens eggs clouds- Krakens are no just void adapted creatures, but are the only non-complex tyranid organism with BFG size to be a ship, well the thing is that it could work as a terrain piece just like minefields but of course paying a lot more points.Or if you think it is so much we can consider just an attack ship cloud or boths as options
Of course we cannot forget mine fields as spore fields.
Now I am thinking on the concept of babysitting ships.
As during the travel tyranids fleets are not active, there could be some kind of ship witch consume more energy but remains active to protect the hole fleet.
that would be a really good opportunity not just for including new ships but also to change tyranids missions list.
I really think they should play also missions like transport missions being defender.
For example using the narvals, or better, using inactive ships as transports to be defended,(As in concept is what bigger ships are, biomass transports)
Don't know, What do the "volks" think?
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Some pretty cool suggestion there, bud: the narval is solid, although I will state for posterity that in my mind only good fluff exists. Anything that contradicts that must be incorrect. ;)
This might make an exception because it would make a really cool transport concept.
Defenses that are not really defenses would work best for nids; AC clouds and the terrain features you mentioned. Possible appellations could be Spires (Bio-Plasma Spires, Pyro-Acid Spires, etc...) or Nodules.
As for the sleeping ship thing, it would make a pretty cool scenario to have a small (750pts) fleet stumble upon a larger (1500-2000pt) nid fleet with all their bio-ships inactive except for the so called defence ship (I would recommend the kraken, as its intended only for defense). These escorts/capital ship would be able to take a special action to use their spores to pop another vessel from hibernation and would gain additional VP from destroyed enemy vessels, whereas the aggressor would gain points for having his flagship survive and extra for destroying the biggest hive ship available. Just a thought, and mechanically open to suggestions, but cool scenario right? Similar to what you had in mind?
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Well the basis for that is already available (surprise attack). It really shouldnt be to difficult to work up something thats similar to this with unequal forces and a longer delay on... awakening? coming off standby.
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New proposal and new erratas. :)
All of them related with Vanguard fleet.
I have been thinking on the new ships available, the kraken carnivore and the leviathan prowder and I have think on this new configuration for the vanguard fleets or even for normal fleets.
The following rules would applied to escorts squadrons with just one type of ship.(just like f.E. destructor squadrons, frigate squadrons)
Predator squadron.(4-12krakens of the same breed 50points each)
If the squadron is form by more than 6 ships one kraken may be upgrated to Carnivore for +60points, the kraken carnivore must have the same evolution than the squadron and gain for free Advanced Discharge Vents, it can not have more than 2 evolutions. In vanguard fleets a carnivore counts as 2 ships concerning leadership.
RULES
DEMOLISHER squadron gain +1 to the leadership when reloading.
In addition a demolisher Carnivore reduce the strength of the piroacid batteries by 6 and add Excretion ducts st5 front/left/right.
DEATHBURNER squadron gain +1 to the leadership when lock on
RAMSMITTER squadron gain +1 to the leadership when full ahead and gain +1d6 to the aditional distance.
DISINTEGRATOR squadron, when shooting at less than 15cm if they roll 6 it counts as 2 hits.
In addition a disintegrator Carnivore reduce the strength of the piroacid batteries by 6 and add Bioplama discharge st3 front/left/right.
Leviatan squadron (4-12 ships 30pt for each ship)
If the squadron is form by more than 6 ships one Leviatan drone ship may be upgraded to Prowder for +40points, the Leviatan Prowder must have the same evolution than the squadron and gain for free Advanced Discharge Vents, it can not have more than 2 evolutions. In vanguard fleets a Prowder counts as 2 ships concerning leadership.
RULES
Leviatan, the range of the whole squadron counts as double so enemies within 30cm can always be targeted by other Tyranid vessels.
ERRATAS
In the vanguard fleet it sais that is a fleet formed by predator krakens and leviatan prowders(instead of leviatan drone ships)
What do you think?
I thought of it since I first saw the rules for the new ships, and I must say that I love the idea of all the ships in the fleet beeing able to evolve to a hier type of ship, founding 3 types of species, krakens, leviathans and hiveships.
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Harec, sorry it's been forever since I responded to your post. I will look into those edits and think about some of your comments some more..
SO, there are some tweaks to the Tyranid list I would like to ask about.
Feeder Tendrils: They were a little confusing and often overpowered before. BFG:R simplified them, kept them at an appropriate point value, and altered the number different ships have to reflect the change. Now, they just cause 1 H&R per FT when contacting an enemy ship's base.
Massive Claws: Pretty much how they used to be except that each massive claw isn't 2 attacks, but 1 instead. This allows some ships to have any amount of attacks, not just multiples of 2.
The rest are pretty much just like the BFG:R original release for Tyranids. Anyone open for proof-reading and telling me what you think about the rules/ships/lists?
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I am open to proofreading, but I am not intimately familiar with 'nids so you might want to look elsewhere for testing/balance opinions.
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Excellent! Please let me know what you find!
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Harec, sorry it's been forever since I responded to your post. I will look into those edits and think about some of your comments some more..
SO, there are some tweaks to the Tyranid list I would like to ask about.
Feeder Tendrils: They were a little confusing and often overpowered before. BFG:R simplified them, kept them at an appropriate point value, and altered the number different ships have to reflect the change. Now, they just cause 1 H&R per FT when contacting an enemy ship's base.
Massive Claws: Pretty much how they used to be except that each massive claw isn't 2 attacks, but 1 instead. This allows some ships to have any amount of attacks, not just multiples of 2.
The rest are pretty much just like the BFG:R original release for Tyranids. Anyone open for proof-reading and telling me what you think about the rules/ships/lists?
Actually there are more I can send you a list os erratas this week end if you want ;) an concerning the aditional rules is up to you ;) I personally dont like the limitation of 2 cruisers per battleship, as we will have 4 types of cruisers with diferent funtions.
Maybe we could make inmature hives with synapse as part of the first group, and or make a 2nd group of light cruisers.
Feder tentrils, for me is ok, in BFG:R I was not sure if it was a teleport attack or a portal(like necrons) witch make it a bit confusing. And I would increase the diference betwen the diferent tyes of ship.
Example. escorts 1 feder, light cruiser 1 or 2, cruiser 2, battleship 3 hulk 4 or 5. as they are no longer range attacks its ok. (If a battlship board you the lest important thin will be the fedeer tentrils ;D)
Massive claws, do sou think they are so powerfull? I don't know you but I usually use them to anoy the oponent and to make the boarding actions softer, But as far as you can trap the objective I am fine with it, the only thing is the price of kraken predator an carnivore if you change their amount of close combat lances.
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I think 0-2 is appropriate, especially when it also allows 0-3 emergent drone ships.