Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: afterimagedan on October 29, 2012, 01:53:38 PM
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Let's make a ruling on 2 hit escorts. We need to get this decision out of the way so we can get the fleet lists done. Any thought on how this should be handled? After we talk a little but, I will add a poll to this thread.
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I really liked the suggestion I saw in one of the other threads, where crits deal an extra point, sqwadrons are crippled on hits, not ships, escorts can't be crippled individually, max 4 heavy escorts per squad, they take two slots in a mixed squad (E.G. 4Hemlocks, 1 hellebore). The Defender and the Hellebore are auto-includes. I would say maybe the Aconite, but it's way less mandatory than the Hellebore. Maybe that really expensive Chaos escort.
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I think all we really need to do it say they take a take a hit on a crit, restricted to 4 max per squad (it would be doubled in the current list, based on their rules that double normal limits). If we limit the numbers, I don't think we need to add a squad crippled rule at all because the mere fact that you are killing escorts off, their firepower numbers are already going down.
Basically it would look like this:
-4 maximum 2hit escorts per escort squadron.
-A critical hit to 2hit escorts causes a hit.
Ships that should shift to it:
-Hellebore
-Defender (maybe)
-Kraken
-Corsair (Dark Eldar)
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I'm not familiar with the corsair, but the others seem fair, as long as the kraken loses it uber-longevity buisiness. We also need to place rules for mixed squads.
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I think all we need to say is 4 maximum 2hit escorts per squadron and we are fine because that means you can add 2 more 1hit escorts if you want. What I think should happen with the Kraken should be 2 hits, 1 shield, 2 turrets, same armor, no 4+ BFI anymore.
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That sounds fine to me, though you may want to limit the defensive biomorphs it can take (I'm super not familiar with tyranids, though)
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Yeah, probably 1 per escort squadron. Most are not an option for escorts as we have them so far.
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Sounds good, I just don't want to lose a cruiser to a single kraken ;)
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Hehe, same here.
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Doubtful a single kraken would do it, but they are pretty cheap...would a 2 hit kraken have a price hike? The defender isn't from the sounds of it and neither is the hellebore, so I assume no?
Crit rule is nice, along with squadron crippling and whatnot.
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The defender is either staying at 45 or going to 50 and gaining battery strength, but the hellebore is already 75 points, so.
How expensive is the kraken? if it's under 40 I think it should have a price hike.
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It cost 40pts in BFG:R, variable in faq 2010/BBB.
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Doubtful a single kraken would do it, but they are pretty cheap...would a 2 hit kraken have a price hike? The defender isn't from the sounds of it and neither is the hellebore, so I assume no?
Crit rule is nice, along with squadron crippling and whatnot.
We should make the distinction about the squad crippling: they are only counted as crippled for victory points. They are not crippled as in they do not lose firepower if the squad is at half strength.
Also, I think there needs to be price adjustments with 2 hit escorts.
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I would be okay with playing them at cost at the moment, I know the defender wasn't good enough, and the hellebore was (In my opinion) too expensive as well. The kraken is really good already, so I'd be willing to playtest it at 40, but I would be critical of it, to see if it should be brought up to at least the cost of a defender.
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Agreed on the Hellebore at least. Defender, I am letting the community decide. I will check into the kraken point cost later and make my case.
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honestly the reason I suggest to play it as is at first is because adding hits to an escort is unprecedented, and I simply don't know what that kind of boost that is worth. It's more than an escort now, but how much more? It doesn't do more damage, so...But on the other hand a mark of nurgle is like 25 points. I'd playtest it and figure it out from there. the other thing we could do, at least with the cheaper escorts is make it a merchant-like upgrade. Hellebore would be standardly 2 hits, but the kraken (or jackal or aconite or whatever) could pay a premium to have a reinforced superstructure on a vessel of that size.
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Smotherman, for a 2 hit Kraken, 45degree turn, 1 shield, 2 turrets, 6+/5+, 20cm movement, 6wbs, the smotherman puts them at 46 pts. I propose we try 45 points and see how it goes. Also, that mark of nurgle for 25pts seems pretty extreme.
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I would also be willing to play (against, talos is the nid player, I think) 45pts. Yeah I agree that it's a touch expensive, bu t aside from the merchant, it's the only way I can think of to add hits that could be used as a parallel.
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Personally I'm all for 2 hit escorts
As I said in a previous post, I have played with these, and don't find them overpowering. They are expensive models to field in any case, and a lucky shot takes them out in one. Not to mention still being vulnerable to H&R attacks! Although an extra 5pts would be in order. what about adding the Grunt to this list? Just for sheer manpower about as opposed to size.
I'm for the Defender being on the list, but what is the opinion on the altered profile (5WB's, 1 torp was it?)?
would prefer 4WB, 2 torps myself.
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I think of the Kraken with these stats to a SM Nova or Gladius. The Kraken has 6+/5+ instead of 6+, is slower, has 45 degree turns instead of 90 degree, only front-firing guns, YET, has 2 hits and is better armed. Seems reasonably balanced out to me. Kraken at 40-45 makes sense.
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With two hits the current profile is much more of a slugger than the castellan. I see the roles a bit differently than some other players:
-Castellan: Long-range second row combatant. Best served sitting back and snipping with its long range batteries and torpedoes, preferably beside a custodian.
-Defender: With two hits and shorter range batteries its clear the defender is just rarin' for a chance to offer point blank protection and firepower to support the explorers.
Personally I would rather see the defender with two hits, 4WB @30cm and 1 STR torpedo, at 45 points like protector. What does the Smotherman say about a 2 hit defender?
Agreed with kraken cost testing. 45pts sounds about right.
@Bessemer Do you still use faq 2010 4+insta-kills on 2 hit escorts from hit and runs? If so that helps out with the whole A-Boats being garbage thread we had a while back.
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I would prefer 2 str torps simply because of the tau torpedos disapearing thing. If you want to use it to deny are, good luck. It makes the ship really fail in the Tau doctrine of longer range. I get that it protects the explorer and is supposed to be the brawler there, but it should eb able to support the fleet until it's engaged, and it's not like the explorer is hurting for protection from AC.
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Fair point; most tau ships do have longer ranges, but I would hardly say the GW list is hurting for torpedoes without the defender's contribution. Considering that it's quite expensive, it will see play in limited numbers of small squadrons, which only flesh out torpedoes so much, regardless of individual output. Also, while I agree the defender needs a boost we have to keep it distinct from the castellan, which has to remain unqiue and viable as well, despite only having 1 hit and costing about the same.
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I mostly favor the 2 torpedo option. Also, can you guys move this to the Tau thread? Third, are you guys ready for the vote to go up about allowing for 2 hit escorts?
Here are the rules changes we should vote on:
-4 maximum 2 hit escorts per escort squadron.
-A critical hit to 2 hit escorts causes a hit.
Ready for the vote? Any changes to this?
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@Talos- No, we run a successful H&R does 1 hit. AB's garbage? When I use them I single out 1 target and throw as many against it as possible, seems to work for me. I kind of get the impression that's how there supposed to work. will look for that thread.
Just wondering, in real-word naval terms, what would come after Frigates and Destroyers? Corvettes? just seems fair to give 2-hit Escorts a name of their own.
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I am indeed ready to vote.
Also if we're using more BFG:R rules, changing the names can lead to losing special rules regarding S.O.s
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@Bessemer Escorts do's and don'ts, last few pages.
Agreed with Thane on that, could be a form of sub-class, sort of like how Grand Cruisers and Heavy Cruiser and such are still cruisers, we could turn multi-hit escorts into Corvettes (Escort).
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@Bessemer Escorts do's and don'ts, last few pages.
Agreed with Thane on that, could be a form of sub-class, sort of like how Grand Cruisers and Heavy Cruiser and such are still cruisers, we could turn multi-hit escorts into Corvettes (Escort).
Why change the name? We put the number of hits in there so you know. BFG:R, from what I remember, are called Frigates. Either way, the name doesn't matter at this point.
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Poll is open.
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I rather name all 2 hit vessels then give some an upgrade. Feels rule boggy. (Remember: kiss).
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Actually corvetts are pretty small, then Frigates and the big boys are Destroyers (not sure why frigates and destroyers are backwards in BFG tho.
Idolators and novas would make good candidates for two hits if this is something we end up doing.
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If this does go through, and Heavy Escorts do make it in, where should the line be drawn?
Definitely- Hellebore, Defender, Grunt.
Possibles- Gladius, Nova, Idolator, Jackal.
I would have added the Falchion to the possibles, but have never seen one in the flesh, are they a similar size to the above?
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Personally, I prefer making the 2 hit escorts out of the ones that just feel too weakly represented by its current model. Hellebore for example. It's pretty expensive for a 1 hit model... Honestly, that's the only one that really fits well for be making it a 2 hit escorts; the Hellebore and the Kraken.
-I'm not sure about the Gladius, Nova or Jackal.
As far as the Grunt goes, as long as their turn is still 90 degrees. 45 degree turn would make them much less viable in their boarding role.
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Forgot about the Kraken!
Just noticed a few other classes popping up and was wondering how far reaching this could become.
in fact, disregard the possibles above. Hellebore and Kraken, deffo. Still pushing for the Defnder tho :)
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For the defender, I would make it 50pts and 2 hits. Done. Smotherman says 49pts. That's teetering on the edge of 4wbs, actually.
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Transports... :D
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oh God... :-X
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Yeah I know...if we were to do transports, I think the escort carrier should be allowed 2 hits. It's pretty pricy and has to be really big to stuff 2 LB into an escort.
No real need for it, but system defense monitors are supposed to be tough as nails; no warp drive or powerful thrust means lots of guns and tons of armor and reinforcing bulkheads. Easily enough to justify it, if we chose to go that route.
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I second the defender.
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If this vote passes, will the next vote be on what ships get 2 hits?
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That's a good idea. So, we have a few nominated ships:
-Tyranid Kraken
-Tau Defender
-Corsair Eldar Hellebore
Any others?
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Grunt, Idolator, Nova, Corsair, Tempest, Jackal, Xenos Escort, Rampart, Escort Carrier, Q ship, Moniter, a medium Transport option.
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I've never seen the model, but it might make the messenger suck less.
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I would be in favor of Dark Eldar Corsair (that's obvious to me, don't know why I forgot it to my earlier post), Grunt, Rampart, Defense Monitor, MAYBE the Nova and Gladius, Xenos Vessel (I'm indifferent)
Where do you find the medium transport, escort carrier, and q-ship rules?
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My choices already given above, though I'd completely forgotten about the Defence monitor!
Escort carriers would be a good choice, Especially if they have more than 1 LB
I'm starting to veer away from stuff like Idolators and the Gladius etc. got to be a cut off point somewhere.
Rampart?
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Yeah, I think I'm starting to decide against Nova, Gladius, Jackal, Idolator. The SM and Chaos vessels are supposed to be similar to the IN escorts, in my opinion. I wouldn't really be in favor of moving out of that category.
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The other thing is that, generally (especially for IN, so by extension SM) Things wiht more hits tend to be slower, and more ponderous, where the nova/gladius are supposed to be fast.
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The other thing is that, generally (especially for IN, so by extension SM) Things wiht more hits tend to be slower, and more ponderous, where the nova/gladius are supposed to be fast.
Completely agree, that's why the Nova/Gladius at 2 hits doesn't sit right with me.
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Nova and Idolator have historicaly been considered overpriced hense my reasoning there :). There is no Medium transport, just thought it would be a good idea. The Q ship and Escort Carriers are in Armada.
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Only
Defender
Kraken
Ork big thing
Hellebore
and that other one
in my opinion. Rest stays 1hit.
Nova got a price drop. Idolator as well? So they are fine.
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Only
Defender
Kraken
Ork big thing
Hellebore
and that other one
Dark Eldar Corsair?
in my opinion. Rest stays 1hit.
Nova got a price drop. Idolator as well? So they are fine.
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So Defender, Kraken, Grunt, Hellebore. I still stick by any carriers should be at two and i also agree with Talos on the moniter. The Rampart is from Plaxors rogue trader and Demiurge spl? list in BFG-R. If no one else has any they want added to the maybe list we should put them all up on a yes/ no vote.
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Andrew, where do you find the medium transport and the q-ship stats? Also the escort carriers?
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There is no Medium transport, it just seemed like a reasonable idea that there might be a 2 hit transport. The other two are in Armada in te appendix.
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It seems weird to me that a Sword would have half the hits of a Q-Ship or an Escort Carrier. I do agree on defense monitors though.
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It also seems off that if the sword and the escort carrier are the same size that the carrier has twice the LB capacity of any escort, including the two hit hellebore. And it is pretty expensive and limited, so I suggest we bump it up to two if this goes through. I withdraw any support from the q-ship; you are all right about it, it has better armor and turrets and guns, which is good enough.
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I'm fine with that. I'm pretty indifferent to the transports situation.
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Q ships get 2 shields too so theres even less reason for that one ;).