Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: afterimagedan on November 06, 2012, 05:21:47 PM
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I love where the SMs are after the early BFGR votes but I think the inclusion of the Vanguard light cruiser (with the 2nd shield option to make them similar to the and chapters are a good thing as long as they are balanced with an equal downside.
Here are some preliminary thoughts on chapters:
Ultramarines: They get a free RR but they need a downside. A free RR is a significant bonus.
Space Wolves: They get -1 to enemy boarding them or H&R attacks against them. They need a small downside.
Imperial Fists: I think this is a good one. Balances out.
Raven Guard: Plaxor and I disagreed about this. I think this is an un-fluffy rule because most of the lore behind Raven Guard are about their battle barges and strike cruisers. I like the roll 2D6 and choose for H&R attacks because I think that is very Raven Guard fluffy, but I think they need a downside. I was thinking that, if people use this, they should have a restriction on Hunters, because that is what most people will want to pile up on with this special rule. I was thinking that we should make a rule that says that Raven Guard fleets cannon have more Hunters than other escorts. This way, it will prevent overwhelming boarding torp spam.
Iron Hands: Repair criticals on 4+ but additional -1 Ld when crippled. I think this should be -2 Ld. This is a downside especially when it comes to disengaging and bracing while crippled. It needs to be -2 because their Ld is going to be 8, 9, or 10 already.
Salamanders: No negative leaderships from blast markers. They should have attack rating 2 and one other small downside. Some people do not use attack rating (though I think it's a good idea for balance reasons). Maybe we could give their battle barges the BFGR "unstoppable" quality, which means that they cannot use Burn Retros, yet blast markers do not slow them. I think adding this makes Salamanders, with these 4 rules, balanced and fluffy.
White Scars: Automatically pass AAF special orders. That's just a small bonus but there is no downside. I think they should take a -1 Ld to RO. That is fluffy for White Scars (from what I know) because it encourages their speed and encourages them to get in close to use their guns more than ordnance. -2 would be too much.
Dark Angels: Attack rating 4. That's a small bonus. I am not sure that we need to counter-balance this but maybe with something really slight. I propose that we make every DA battlebarge purchase terminators (Deathwing).
Black Templar: I think we should put a price on the Annihilator per ship that takes it, probably +5pts. Also, we need to rework Annihilators.
Blood Angels: I think the BA rules are awesome. Let's keep it.
Can't wait to work on these. I think chapters add a lot of interesting options and character to the otherwise bland Space Marine fleet.
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nah, on all. In space marines are brand. Aside of colour. Later more.
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In space marines are brand.
What does this mean?
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How about adding Stormravens? I know BA and GK get these, how about resilient fighters with a speed of 25cm?
Could always be an upgrade for other chapters.
Rather than the free RR, how 'bout ultras can take IN reserves at 2:1 Instead? They're supposes to have good relations with all other of the Imperiums factions.
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@ Dan, lol, brand should bland.
@bessemer, with the difficulty of the annihilator in mind I see no room for yet another Marine flyer.
The T-Hawk does what it needs to do.
Chapter Traits are to small to effect space battles. Things like fleet lists alterations can be done (DA with Hunters, Crusade style of Black Templars, Ultramarines with IN intergration).
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Blah...
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?
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The Vanguard: is not listed in your BFG:revised new edition document.
I am not such a fan of this thing anyway.
In short BFG:R
Ultramarines: free re-roll
Space Wolves: stalwart?
Imperial Fists: twice vps opponent commander // vica versa // subplots +1
Raven Guard: elite boarding parties // more escorts then capital ships
Iron Hands: augmented damage control // -1 ld crippled
Salamanders: attack rating 2 // no bm effect to Ld
White Scars: free all ahead full
Black Templars: free annihilator
Blood Angels: Relentless? // if boarding lost double damage
The effects are imo all over the place; with different effects and no cost difference. And the list forces a player to choose a chapter.
If it is done it should be optional. 'Vanilla' must be possible.
And prizes should be paid for chapter effects.
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I agree there should be some cost to these benefits
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I don't think you need chapter specific abilities for space marines in BFG. I just don't think it would make much difference. If you really want a themed list, you can reflect it in the ships you pick and the tactics you employ.
As for the abilities presented, they should probably all come with a cost, simply to allow people to play "non of the above". That would also mean you could balance individual abilities with their cost and not have to find a penalty for each bonus.
That said, I did once produce a fleet ability for each of the 18 founding legions which you can find here, if you're interested: http://www.danleeonline.com/attachments/File/Battlefleet_Gothic/Scenarios_of_the_Heresy_-_Istvaan.pdf
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I love where the SMs are after the early BFGR votes but I think the inclusion of the Vanguard light cruiser (with the 2nd shield option to make them similar to the and chapters are a good thing as long as they are balanced with an equal downside.
Here are some preliminary thoughts on chapters:
Space Wolves: They get -1 to enemy boarding them or H&R attacks against them. They need a small downside.
I think should be +1 to their boarding and H&R instead of the penallty, due to the ferocity and aggressiveness of the chapter.
I love the special abilities of each chapter, it gives a strong personality to the SM fleet and makes up the few ship options that they have compared to other fleets. ;)
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Several fleets have only a few ships, and I agree with several of you in that individual SM heraldry would have little effect on the ship's abilities. If a hunter has only 1 squad max of marines on it, it's already difficult to believe that would significantly swing things in their favor as is, and the difference between five ultramarines and five space wolves seems rather insignificant in a battle that will involve hundreds of thousand of people, potentially upward of a million (at least based on RT human and alien ships stats...)
@horizon In another post at another time we should work on some Rak Gol fleet rules. Sort of like Orks only...multi-legged radiation spewing abominations instead.
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Alright, I think there is a general climate out there to hold off on the chapter rules. I like them because I like how they make the chapters different but I am willing to hold off on them. Where does everyone think the fleet is without them?
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Other than the chapter rules, I think they are pretty good, not sure where I stand on the vanguard...
As for SM chapter rules, I do like them, I just think the application is a little lackluster; surprisingly, I agree with horizon that the effects are a little all over the place and inconsistent. I am personally in favor of making them mini-marks of chaos; a small +5 or +10pt upgrade that adds a moderate advantage along with a small disadvantage to balance it out (along with a point cost). This allows vanilla SM fleets to work out fine while giving another set of options to a pretty small fleet list. As an added bonus, you can create mixed chapter fleets like that of the Damocles gulf crusade force, which had many chapters including Iron Hands, White Scars, Ultramarines, etc...
Or did you mean other than me? :P
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Other than the chapter rules, I think they are pretty good, not sure where I stand on the vanguard...
I am personally in favor of making them mini-marks of chaos; a small +5 or +10pt upgrade that adds a moderate advantage along with a small disadvantage to balance it out (along with a point cost).
Why make a disadvantage if you are adding a point cost? I do agree with you though, I would like to see them look like Chaos Marks.
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@afterimagedan Fair point on the drawbacks; probably easier to make it more expensive (10-15pts) and no drawbacks, admittedly.
Crusade fleet is cool, right? Right?
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Well how about codex marines can take (3-5?) space marine captians which must be assigned to a capitol ship. Once per battle he can automatically pass one leadership test or command check, no roll required. 25 points
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Not a bad idea but considering the hate for hive mind imperative I don't think many will jump on that bandwagon.
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Not sure what the hive mind imperative is but this is a carbon copy of strand of fate from the Chaos powers.
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@afterimagedan Fair point on the drawbacks; probably easier to make it more expensive (10-15pts) and no drawbacks, admittedly.
Crusade fleet is cool, right? Right?
the crusade fleet works for me
i like the strike cruiser upgrade changes they make more sense
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@AndrewChristlieb In original nid rules you could buy hive mind imperatives that allow you to automatically succeed a synaptic control test, which is what the subcommander resembles to me. As far as I know we removed this option from nids because we did not like it.
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@AndrewChristlieb In original nid rules you could buy hive mind imperatives that allow you to automatically succeed a synaptic control test, which is what the subcommander resembles to me. As far as I know we removed this option from nids because we did not like it.
Hive mine imperatives were such a huge waste of points. They are more points than the hive reroll and were not as good.
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Dear god no, no chapter rules. The only thing approaching chapter rules I can think of would be for things like their behaviour when in mixed fleets. For example: Space Wolves are arseholes and don't listen to anyone. Any Space Wolves ship that has joined your fleet for any reason must be controlled by a third party. No collusion allowed. Or Dark Angels: Dark Angels are dicks, and will likely wander off to attend to their own crap and leave you holding the bag. Roll a dice for any Dark Angels ship that has joined your fleet at the start of each of your movement phases; it will automatically disengage on a roll of a 1. Ultramarines are nobs and will take over your fleet, Blood Angels are lunatics and will simply fly straight at the enemy, Black Templars will no doubt believe your ships harbour heretics and will fire on your half the time, etc.
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Pretty good ideas actually. 8)
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Forces of Chaos: Bezerker Tide . . . . . . . . . . Free
Bloodlust drives a ship’s crew forward in a battle
frenzy, ignoring their own vessels’ defenses. Carriers
flush their bays of attack craft to meet their foe as
crews leave their posts en-masse to board the enemy.
Any ships with the Mark of Khorne conducting a
boarding action may roll D3 extra critical damage
rolls if desired, but then it may not take any special
orders (including Brace for Impact) in the next turn.
Carriers with this Mark may launch up to D3 more
attack craft markers of any type if less than 20cm of
their target. If they do so, they must Reload
Ordnance and not launch in the next turn.
Forces of Chaos: Veil of Lust . . . . . . . . +20 points
The dissonant noise becomes so palpable, even the
sensors and auguries of enemy vessels are affected.
Any ships with the Mark of Slaanesh may take and
be obscured by a Veil of Lust. Ship firing on this
vessel using the gunnery table suffers a right-column
shift before any other modifiers are applied.
Forces of Chaos: Siren’s Summon . . . . +25 points
Vivid sounds and images of unspeakably dark
pleasures permeate the hulls of enemy vessels and
enrapt entire crews to inaction.
Up to two capital ships with the Mark of Slaanesh
(including the flagship) may take the Siren‟s
Summon. While within 15cm of a vessel with
Siren‟s Summon, enemy ships cannot take special
orders or make leadership checks of any type,
including Brace For Impact.
Forces of Chaos: Warp Beasts . . . . . . . +25 points
The garish, terror-spawned leviathans of the warp
are but playthings to Tzeentch, and he can bind these
creatures to the hulls of vessels to be unleashed in a
torrent of coruscating fire and nightmare color.
Up to two capital ships (including the flagship) can
have daemonic entities and warp beats swirl about its
hull, including daemonships. Once per battle, a
single enemy ship within 15cm takes D6 hits in the
end phase (shields have no effect).
Forces of Chaos: Strand of Fortune . . . +25 points
Tzeentch may offer glimpses of the future to his
servants, even those serving his chosen champion.
Any ship led by a Lord of Tzeentch (and not the
Warmaster!) may be granted a Strand of Fortune.
Once per battle it automatically passes a command
check or leadership test- no roll required.
Forces of Chaos: Hives of Nurgle . . . . . +10 points
Pustules, hives, and sores fester upon the ship’s
cankered hull, seeping an obscuring haze of
corroded debris, waste and filth out into space.
Any capital ships with the Mark of Nurgle may also
take Hives of Nurgle. The murky haze distorts the
ship‟s silhouette; vessels within 15cm do not benefit
from a left column shift when firing at it.
Forces of Chaos: Ark of Pestilence . . . . . +5 points
During the Gothic War, hulks were found to be
relatively intact but with their entire crews slain and
their bodies rotted by horrific disease.
Up to three capital ships with the Mark of Nurgle
(including the flagship) may also become Arks of
Pestilence. Ships boarded by them are also infected
by plague in addition to all damage inflicted
normally, affecting it the same way as if it suffered a
single Fire critical (repaired normally). Ships hulked
in this manner do not remain “on fire†and roll
normally on the catastrophic damage table.
I really dont see the problem with space marines getting some abilities to reflect their backgrounds. Sig I really hope your joking because those are just silly (not that im disagreeing with them just the game playability :D).
I do think any options should be somewhat generic with each chapter being subject to one or two characterstics.
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Well, Sig isn't joking. He dislikes chapter specifics and only would allow the silly ones he invented.
And as long as chapter specifics stay out of the main Marine document I am fine with it to a certain level as I still dislike chapters getting a +1 h&r bonus for example over others per example. Imo it still should be fleet list changes and not rule bonusses.
Shouldn't your list be in the Chaos thread?
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Those are the ones from the powers of chaos list in the FAQ. Put them up to show why I dont see a problem with the Space marines getting special rules, after all the CSM already have them.
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Very good point Andrew
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But that are more God Bonusses. That is different then chapter tactics in space.
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But that are more God Bonusses. That is different then chapter tactics in space.
Yes, but that is talking about lore, and not game mechanics. Chaos get those options for upgrades. SM do not. He is saying that the chapter bonuses would fill that roll.
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But that are more God Bonusses. That is different then chapter tactics in space.
Yes, but that is talking about lore, and not game mechanics. Chaos get those options for upgrades. SM do not. He is saying that the chapter bonuses would fill that roll.
The differences between the Chaos gods is demonstrable even at a fleet level. The differences between SM chapters are indistinguishable at this level. There is no difference whatsoever between the different CSM legions in space. Why would there be a difference between SM chapters?
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But that are more God Bonusses. That is different then chapter tactics in space.
Yes, but that is talking about lore, and not game mechanics. Chaos get those options for upgrades. SM do not. He is saying that the chapter bonuses would fill that roll.
The differences between the Chaos gods is demonstrable even at a fleet level.
How are they distinguishable? Do you have references from fluff?
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I do. SPOILERS FOR ATLAS INFERNAL
Inquisitor Czevaks Ship was flying through the eye and got attack by a khornite ship, which didn't fire at them, I believe, and had almost it's entire crew board Czevack's vessel. (Unprotected, near-suicidal jumps through hard void/immaterial space). There was a grand total of 1 chaos legionaire on board, adn he didn't even try to board Czevack's ship, and while we can assume he was a world eater, I don't believe it's ever stated which legion he's from, whearas elsewhere in the novel, it's explicitly said where legionaires are from (example: The Thousand Sons Legionaire that they fight).
So that pretty closely mimics one of the Khorn fleet's abilities, whithout marines being involved.
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Hum, thats odd if theres no difference in CSM then why are there special rules for them specifically?
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There are, the same rules as for regular SM. When one of the protagonists from Czevack's ship gets to the bridge, he encounters the CSM on board and has a super intense fight with the guy that I can see justifying the H+R boost and the ld boost is obviously a given. But aside from what weapon he happened to be using, his legion wouldn't have really changed much of that fight. All my example is illustrating is that allegiance to one of the Chaos gods dictates a Chaos fleet much more than a particular chapter/legion would.
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Yeah, just like that.
Chaos God > Chapter/Legion
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I am starting to agree with horizon on this one. Chapter differentiation should be done at a fleet level, as all marines invest in similar tactics. I mean really, despite all their differences SM all have the same capabilities. Blood Angels are reknowned for melee combat, but in the Night Lords trilogy they comment repeatedly on how during the siege of terra the blood angels are excellent marksman. The dark angels are known for ranged combat, but that doesn't stop them from wading in with power swords in the SM battle books. All SM are capable of all things, Matt Wardism's aside. ::)
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A standard tactical marine is, after all an all-rounder (Gray Hunter's aside).
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Blood Angels are reknowned for melee combat, but in the Night Lords trilogy they comment repeatedly on how during the siege of terra the blood angels are excellent marksman. The dark angels are known for ranged combat, but that doesn't stop them from wading in with power swords in the SM battle books. All SM are capable of all things, Matt Wardism's aside. ::)
Yes, but Blood Angels are better at close combat than Dark Angels and are supposed to be that way. Yes they are "excellent marksman," but all space marines are great at all types of combat. Yet, some chapters are better at some things than others. Plus, adding chapter specifics will make the SM fleet more varied, something that they desperately need. Chaos has a huge, expansive fleet with tons of options. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to have expanded options for the SM fleet. I know there is a lot of SM love in the 40k realm, but there certainly is a lot of anti-SM fleet stuff going around in the BFG realm. Chaos? OMG I LOVE CHAOS THEY ARE TEH BESTZORZ I LOVE THEIR 8 DIFFERENT FLEETS THEIR COUNTLESS SHIPS AND TONS OF OPTIONS.
SM? [shrug] ::) There are countless differences in the 40k SM realm. These same SMs pilot the ships of the SM fleet in BFG. And yet, people still argue that there are no differences between the fleets besides the differences in ships they own. The individual SMs are involved in every aspect of the SM fleet and yet, people want there to be no differences.
People are ok with boarding differences between Khorne Berzerkers and regular CSMs, yet they won't allow for a difference between Ultramarine boarding parties and Space Wolf boarding parties.
Chapter differences are totally reasonably for fluff and game-mechanic reasons.
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A standard tactical marine is, after all an all-rounder (Gray Hunter's aside).
This same argument works for CSMs too. Yet, there are some CSMs with marks of chaos, just as their are specialty types within regular SM chapters.
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And I agree that Legions and Chapters should get and appendix that lays out rules we can use for them, however on a marked ship, every crew member, like 20 or 30 thousand people are so marked, whearas on a SM vessel there are like 10 marines. Keep in mind that CSM and SM provide the same bonus in BFG, non-CSM vessels can get the mark upgrade. It's the mark of Khorn that gives the boarding bonus, presumeable to the armsmen, not the CSM themselves that are giving that bonus.
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And I agree that Legions and Chapters should get and appendix that lays out rules we can use for them, however on a marked ship, every crew member, like 20 or 30 thousand people are so marked, whearas on a SM vessel there are like 10 marines. Keep in mind that CSM and SM provide the same bonus in BFG, non-CSM vessels can get the mark upgrade. It's the mark of Khorn that gives the boarding bonus, presumeable to the armsmen, not the CSM themselves that are giving that bonus.
So, when 3 THs are launched from a Battlebarge, there are 3 marines in them, each? There are 0 marines left on the vessel? That's just not true.
"There are also a few hundred
Chapter serfs to attend to other duties, such as
routine cleaning and maintenance, serving the
Space Marines during meal times and other
such honoured tasks. These serfs come from the
Chapter’s home planet or the enclave they
protect, many of them Novitiates or applicants
who have failed some part of the recruiting or
training process. These serfs are fanatically loyal
to their superhuman masters, and indoctrinated
into many of the lesser orders of the Chapter’s
Cult. Although human, they still benefit from
remarkable training and access to superior
weaponry than is usually found on a naval
vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a
boarding action – even without the support of
their genetically modified lords."
So, the crew with the SMs is elite and not some crappy guardsmen.
If you guys are ok with an upgrade to put "10" (which I don't think is true) CSM on a ship, which gives it +2 to its boarding value, then that just supports my claim that the specialties of the different chapters should be more apparent. Also, you should be totally fine with loyalist SM chapters getting stuff like this:
Dark Angels Deathwing:
-bonus to H&R
Blood Angels Death Company:
-Bonus to boarding
Space Wolves Thunderwolves:
-Bonus to boarding
Black Templar Sword Brethren:
-bonus
Raven Guard Raptors:
-bonus
White Scars Biker Hordes:
-bonus
Imperial Fists Fortifications:
-bonus
Iron Hands Techmarines:
-bonus
Ultramarines Honour Guard:
-bonus
Salamanders Melta Supremacy:
-bonus
(Because of their early training as blacksmiths, all Salamanders are fully capable of maintaining and performing moderate repair on their weapons and armour, leaving the Chapter's artificers with the free time necessary to create great works of technology and metallurgy)
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I believe it's in Rogue Trader (which admittedly is a FFG product) that it mentions the relatively small number of marines on a marine vessel, but unfortunately I couldn't tell you where, so I realise that hold no water. Perhaps Talos may remeber the quote. In any case I'm not arguing against having chapter specific benefits, I'm simply saying they should be in a seperate appendix. I think that having a vessel dedicated to a chaos god will have more impact that a particular SM chapter's prefferences in war. No matter the marine, the training for serf wil be relatively similar. Plus that Khornate ship was literally empty when it got counter-boarded. No chance that a SM vessels would ever, ever do that, no matter how much they love CC.
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I have the Rogue Trader book and the Deathwatch book. Let me know if you find the reference.
I think we will have to agree to disagree here, though we both want the same result of the whole thing. The appendix for chapters, loyal and traitor, is the best option because then, you can choose to use it or not.
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@afterimagedan You have to admit, any opponent who the marines manage to board with THUNDERWOLVES or a BIKE HORDE is probably like, "Well F**k me, good game guys, I will be heading for the escape pod now..." I wish I could draw that would make awesome art.
The Savage Scars novel by Andy Hoare places an escort sized SM vessel at 5-10 marines, with strike cruisers at 30-100 marines and battlebarges at 100-300 marines. One would have to imagine that in most engagements, the entire chapter is not involved and thus most of those numbers are on the smaller side.
Chapter benefits should be a thing, minor and as a point addition. But he community clearly does not want this, so lets wait for the appendix and rock 'em, right Dan.
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@afterimagedan You have to admit, any opponent who the marines manage to board with THUNDERWOLVES or a BIKE HORDE is probably like, "Well F**k me, good game guys, I will be heading for the escape pod now..." I wish I could draw that would make awesome art.
I already did admit it! They should feel the same way when boarded by Thunderwolves as they do with Khorne Berzerkers. That's my argument, they should have similar game options.
The Savage Scars novel by Andy Hoare places an escort sized SM vessel at 5-10 marines, with strike cruisers at 30-100 marines and battlebarges at 100-300 marines. One would have to imagine that in most engagements, the entire chapter is not involved and thus most of those numbers are on the smaller side.
Those numbers look about right, mathematically. Totally depends on the chapter. Many chapters are fleet based only and you may encounter the entire thing in a fleet battle.
Chapter benefits should be a thing, minor and as a point addition. But he community clearly does not want this, so lets wait for the appendix and rock 'em, right Dan.
Agreed. Let's make an appendix of loyal and traitor options that you can buy. Like Berzerker, Thunderwolves, Deathwing, etc.
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It was written in white dwarves that there are only a handfull marines on a vessel(when not transporting the company).
The captain will be the leader of a regular tactical squad, while another member of his squad could be installed as the captain of a accompaning escort.
So, yeah, 10 Marines or less on a Strike Cruiser is most common.
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It was written in white dwarves that there are only a handfull marines on a vessel(when not transporting the company).
The captain will be the leader of a regular tactical squad, while another member of his squad could be installed as the captain of a accompaning escort.
So, yeah, 10 Marines or less on a Strike Cruiser is most common.
I'll believe that it's "most common" when I see the reference.
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I'll search the reference but it has been common knowledge ammung the community afaik ;) .
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Nope 100 marines per strike cruiser
10 per rapid strike vessel
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Part of the problem is that we are ignoring some fluff and not others; like I mentioned earlier, it is pretty rare to have as many SM in the field (other than fleet based chapters) as we play in games; a 1500pt fleet could have two battlebarges alongside a pair of strike cruisers and a squadron of escorts. The odds of the chapter pouring that many resources into one battle...it would have to be for their survival to warrant risking that many marines. In space, all it takes is one lucky shot to wipe out a third of the chapter after all. Other than the horus heresy and the battle for maccrage, the only references I have seen to such massive fleet engagements are the Iron Hands novel, the redemptive crusade in the new Chaos Codex and the Badab war.
It is fair to assume that if the chapter is fielding 75% of its vessels that it will have brought a lot of marines to woop ass...at least, that's the way I see it.
To add to specific chapters abilities, there is mention in the Deliverance Lost Horus Heresy novel that Corvus/Corax has had all the Raven Guard vessels modified with improved energy baffles and cloaking fields, allowing it to pass virtually invisible as long as the shields and other high energy systems were down. Later, if we were so inclined, the RG could buy mimic engines of sorts, to represent their silent approach.
In Fulgrim (Horus Heresy), there is reference to the Iron Hands vessels having lots of access to castellan void shields (bonus if your ship has them in RT), which basically allows some of their shields to pop back up sometimes after an overload. Could have upgrade that allows shields an save of sorts, 5 or 6+.
In Hunt for Valadorious (SM Battle Book), the White Scars have a ship that basically has evasive jets like the chart upgrade.
In Salamanders trilogy (tome of Fire 1-3), the salamanders have masterfully crafted hulls which are more resilient than other ships equivalents. No real way to implement this, but...
I could go on and on, but I think we can all agree that this can be a separate compendium for expediency's sake.
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Nope 100 marines per strike cruiser
10 per rapid strike vessel
Wrong.
Only 100 on the Strike Cruiser if the company is being transported / toward planetary assault.
Otherwise 10 at max.
Which moronic chapter master would keep 100 of the Emperor's finest onboard a fragile ship in vast space?
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There are several example in the space wolf / grey knight war of them engaging in space with large numbers on board they were there to fight the battle they were engaged in
Not being transported to an Planetary assault
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Given the +2 boarding factor I think it's assumed more than deck crew are a board
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What you miss: chapter serfs (serfs who did not make it into a true Marine) are still pretty awesome regarding fighting compared to normal humans. And they make up the bulk on a ship.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Fleet
Unlike the vessels of the Imperial Navy, a Space Marine ship has a relatively small crew. A Space Marine is far too valuable to waste in manning a gun or watching a surveyor screen, and so only the officers aboard a vessel are likely to be Space Marines, as well as the few Techmarines who oversee the engines and perform other mechanical duties. Almost all the ship’s systems are run and monitored by servitors; half-human cyborgs who are wired into the vessel’s weapons, engines and communications apparatus. There are also a few hundred Chapter Serfs to attend to other duties, such as routine cleaning and maintenance, serving the Space Marines during meal times and other such honoured tasks. These serfs come from the Chapter’s home planet or the enclave they protect, many of them Novitiates or applicants who have failed some part of the recruiting or training process. These serfs are fanatically loyal to their superhuman masters, and indoctrinated into many of the lesser orders of the Chapter’s Cult. Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to superior weaponry than is usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action – even without the support of their genetically modified lords.[1]
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Part of the problem is that we are ignoring some fluff and not others; like I mentioned earlier, it is pretty rare to have as many SM in the field (other than fleet based chapters) as we play in games; a 1500pt fleet could have two battlebarges alongside a pair of strike cruisers and a squadron of escorts. The odds of the chapter pouring that many resources into one battle...it would have to be for their survival to warrant risking that many marines. In space, all it takes is one lucky shot to wipe out a third of the chapter after all. Other than the horus heresy and the battle for maccrage, the only references I have seen to such massive fleet engagements are the Iron Hands novel, the redemptive crusade in the new Chaos Codex and the Badab war.
It is fair to assume that if the chapter is fielding 75% of its vessels that it will have brought a lot of marines to woop ass...at least, that's the way I see it.
To add to specific chapters abilities, there is mention in the Deliverance Lost Horus Heresy novel that Corvus/Corax has had all the Raven Guard vessels modified with improved energy baffles and cloaking fields, allowing it to pass virtually invisible as long as the shields and other high energy systems were down. Later, if we were so inclined, the RG could buy mimic engines of sorts, to represent their silent approach.
In Fulgrim (Horus Heresy), there is reference to the Iron Hands vessels having lots of access to castellan void shields (bonus if your ship has them in RT), which basically allows some of their shields to pop back up sometimes after an overload. Could have upgrade that allows shields an save of sorts, 5 or 6+.
In Hunt for Valadorious (SM Battle Book), the White Scars have a ship that basically has evasive jets like the chart upgrade.
In Salamanders trilogy (tome of Fire 1-3), the salamanders have masterfully crafted hulls which are more resilient than other ships equivalents. No real way to implement this, but...
I could go on and on, but I think we can all agree that this can be a separate compendium for expediency's sake.
Very true I think of few more big battles though
But in vastness of the 40k universe they are rare events where the space marines are throwing everything they have at something
few more examples of upgrades
Stealth ships are seen in the raven guard(cruisers) and space wolf fleets(rapid strike vessel)
I am happy for it to wait
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What you miss: chapter serfs (serfs who did not make it into a true Marine) are still pretty awesome regarding fighting compared to normal humans. And they make up the bulk on a ship.
better than Chaos space marines.......
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?
The Chaos ships in the Gothic sector do not have chaos marines on them.
You have to buy then in the armageddon pdf list as an add on,
From FAQ/Compendium 2010
https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0Bw_dULEfC3rbYzUyNjQzZTAtMDZiMS00ZjRlLWJjNzMtYTE5YmNjZjdjODQ1/edit?pli=1#docId=0Bw_dULEfC3rbNjlmZDQyNDYtNmU1NS00NWRjLTk1NzktMWFmZmM4NTk0OWM3
While these serfs make up the vast
bulk of crews aboard Space M arine vessels, the
Master of the Fleet also has a number of Space
Marines under his command, who act as high-
ranking officers aboard the fleet’s capital ships,
providing captains for individual vessels, leading
specialized boarding parties, or otherwise overseeing
the dedicated serfs who provide the bulk of a
vessel’s manpower.
In some cases, it will be the Master of the
Fleet’s own company that provides these Marines,
with each of his veteran captains acting as captain to
a different vessel within the fleet while their own
squad members each man a different vital area
within that same vessel.
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which are some reason not superior to load of guys who did not make the grade as marines. Also yet to see these guys in books involving boarding actions which suggest that failed marines should get +2 to boarding
As talos says virtually any battle represented by BFG is massve battle probably desperate battle for the chapter involving most its strength as a chapter.
Just look at the fluff any battle involving multiple battle barges / strike cruisers is massive, war of armageddon, black crusade, survival of the chapter stuff.
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The problem is that the ships dont represent the fluff. Theyre not fragile at all but having 500 point invulnerable strikes wouldnt make for much fun :D.
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which are some reason not superior to load of guys who did not make the grade as marines. Also yet to see these guys in books involving boarding actions which suggest that failed marines should get +2 to boarding
They are't "failed" marines. That's like suggesting the professional MMA fighters who apply to the Green Beret (American special forces) and were rejected are just "failed green berets."
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They should feel the same way when boarded by Thunderwolves as they do with Khorne Berzerkers. That's my argument, they should have similar game options.
Marks of chaos do not give Khorn Berzerkers to the ship. Yes they shoudl have similar game options, the marks are not them, though.
Wouldn't traitors who have defected, even if they weren't trained by SM, be just as good as chapter serfs, simply by existing in the eye of terror for a few hundred years?
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@ThaneAquilon Quite possibly, but most humans, even in the eye, don't live for a couple hundred. The ones that do are not the ones doing the boarding I assure you, but commanding empires and armies. Good point on the marks.
As a note against chapter specifics like better boarding, note that the conqueror comes with a khorne berserker HORDE, which counts as regular CSM ruleswise, despite the fact that I would put money on a HORDE of khorne berserkers being better off in a close range melee/shootout that a couple of serfs, even with a dozen marines. Devil's advocate, I am today.
Also seems strange that a couple hundred serfs fight better than several thousand/dozens of thousand orks! I mean the things survive getting their arms torn off and hard freakin' vacuum for minutes, added to the fact that each one is stronger than a human by a mile, and a close up melee between humans and boatloads of orks should be like a full grown man putting a kitten into a blender and pressing puree.
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They should feel the same way when boarded by Thunderwolves as they do with Khorne Berzerkers. That's my argument, they should have similar game options.
Marks of chaos do not give Khorn Berzerkers to the ship. Yes they shoudl have similar game options, the marks are not them, though.
This is true. I am trying to make the point though, that if the Terminator upgrade can have suck a powerful effect the game, then why not have other chapter specific benefits they can purchase? One could argue that it's unnecessary, but I think SMs need some more flare and chapter specific units/bonuses is a great way to do that. I am totally convinced now that whole chapter fleet effects (like the old BFG:R options) is not the way to do this. Let's keep the SM fleets how they are in the current BFG:R document and make a later appendix where each chapter has a few options that would make the fleets more interesting and cause some distinctions (albeit small) to the fleets. CSM options too. When should we start the discussion about SM chapter upgrades? Now? Later?
Also, are we ready to vote on closing the SM list once we resolve the THA issue? Also, should I put the Fortress Monestary rules AND the Ramilies rules in there?
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I look forward to the appendix. Specific legions should be on there, but marks are pretty essential to chaos, IMO.
@Talos fair points all round.
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I dont think anyone is opposed to an appendix, there are maybe a few who would want these options in the standard rules but those would be the minority from what ive seen here.
Why include the Ramiles? Outside of a scenario built around the big stations I dont really see the point of them.
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I dont think anyone is opposed to an appendix, there are maybe a few who would want these options in the standard rules but those would be the minority from what ive seen here.
Why include the Ramiles? Outside of a scenario built around the big stations I dont really see the point of them.
Well, I suppose I should just include the Fortress-Monastery because it's in the 2010 Crusade fleet.