Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: afterimagedan on February 11, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
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Should we discuss how to change daemon ships in the Chaos list? It seems like the general consensus is to drop the current BFG:R daemon list?
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Man, nobody seems to like these things. BUT, we need to figure out what we would like to do with them before we conclude Chaos. Anyone want to take a crack at it?
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Oh oooh, pick me. Pick me! ;D Honestly, I've never fielded daemon, so I don't really know where to start.
Again random thoughts:
Availability of Daemon Ships
- as an upgrade on any capital ship
- no warmaster, lord or CSM on a daemon
- Any idea on the restriction of how many ships may purchase the daemon upgrade? As long as the fleet has to have a warmaster the possible maximum of daemon ships would be 'all but one, excluding escorts'.
Since I never used one I really have no clue if there is a reason to further restrict them. :-\
Special rules for Daemon Ships
Is there anything wrong with the rules given in old BFG:R? The basics are still pretty much the same as in Armada, but Revised adds quite a big bunch of rules for each of the Gods, even for 'lesser gods / undivided daemons'. Seems quite nice, albeit a bit much for something that has no fleet list of its own.
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Capitol ships only is obvious but we should look at limiting these to one or two per fleet. Besides the problems of trying to coordinate with them i cant imagine it would be easy to get even the most hardened crews to sail very long with them. Theyre also supposed to be quite rare.
Some ideas for special rules:
Allow them to be deployed as a contact marker as per the rules for an escalating engagement. Once deployed they may move in any direction upto their max speed each turn and may not be targeted by any attacks or effects. At anytime at the end of a Daemons end phase it may take a leadership test to "phase in" anywhere within 10cm of the contact marker, facing any direction.
The Daemon ship may at the end of any of its subsequent end phases choose to phase out, this works exactly like a standard disengagement, but no leadership test is required.
Holofields. Errm, i mean spectral displacement effect... which would be holofields.
Any ship within 15cm suffers -1 leadership, not counting any additional modifiers due to marks etc.
If a Daemon ship becomes crippled it must phase out at the end of its next end phase.
Any other ideas?
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It seems like very few people want to touch these things, hehe...
Andrew, I really like your concepts there. I will look through things and get back with some thoughts.
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The marker idea is neat, needs some further thinking.
The main problem in the original rules is the materialize rule. It takes three turns to actually do something with the vessel. It can be easily denied by having an enemy ship touch the base.
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Here's a simple fix for Daemon ships. Do the normal scatter die and 4D6 thing on a Chaos end phase the chaos player determines that is not the first (this is unchanged). The player can choose the heading of the ship after its position is determined (this is a change). It is then considered spectral and cannot do anything and causes -1ld to enemy ships within 15cm (unchanged). The chaos player can take the ship out of this "spectral" status at the beginning of a subsequent chaos turn and take control of the vessel normally (changed), even if in base contact with an enemy vessel (changed). Keep the "Haunting" stuff the same.
I think that should do it. Some really basic changes. Keep the points the same; they are overpriced already so these changes should make it more worth it.
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Glad to see that you take this subject to discussion afterimagedan.
Demon ships as they are, are worthless, even in the eyes of a noob as I am.
I think that the actual way of "phasing in\out" should be dropped, because it makes such ships useless for 3 or more turns.
I've been thinking about those ships, anyway, and I propose this (kinda overpowered, maybe)
-1 demon ship per full 1000 pts (1 at 1000, 2 at 2000 and so on)
-no csm or lord upgrade can be taken on such ships
-marks can be taken, as usual. possibly different effects?
-"Warp Incursion": the ship is not deployed normally. Instead, at the beginning of your first ordnance phase choose a point of the battlefield up to 20 cm away from a capital ship (called Portal, maybe secretly noted on the list before battle?) of your fleet. Place the demon ship there and then scatter 3d6 cm. If the portal and the Demonship share a mark of chaos, then no scatter occurs.
When the ship moves it "phase out" the real space. Move the ship 2d6 cm for each full 10 cm of nominal movement, ignoring any tabletop feature such as planets, asteroids, minefield etc. You may turn it up to 45°
If the ship should end its movement with it base touching a tabletop feature then subtract an hull point and move the ship until the base is out of contact, following the shortest route.
-"Ethereal hull": any damage the ship takes is ignored at 5+. No critical damage can be inficted to the ship. It cannot be boarded. Hit and run attacks against this ship inflict an hull point on a roll of 5+ (no save allowed)
The ship cannot take special orders "You dare to order us, mortal??"
-Ethereal weapons: the ship halves its firepower, rounded up. Any damage the ship inflicts cause a critical on 5+. The ship can only launch normal torpedo and fighters. (actually warp bolts and flying daemons) (maybe those should be halved too)
-Demonic assault: the ship can attempt Teleport hit and run attacks up to 20cm away, and add +1 to its roll. The ship has +1 on any boarding action.
- This upgrade cost 40 pts
Possible alternative marks effects
: Khorne doubles boarding value + 10
: Slaanesh -2 Ld to enemy ships within 15 cm / enemy ordnance and attack craft within 30 cm able to do so must move toward this ship (turning as appropriate to engage it) (sorry for my english...is it comprehensible what I mean??) +10 / + 20
: Tzeentch the ship ignores damages on a roll of 4+ +25 pts
: Nurgle +1 hull point + 15 pts
A little bit too convoluted maybe?
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@Dan- That is the simplest fix for materialization.
@Neferhet- Just a little ;) Deamonship ordnance should be boarding torpedoes and Assault boats/fighters (like TH, no reslience) I reckon. like you say it's actually swarms of deamons not warheads or craft
I remember skimming Plaxor's Deamonships, and that they had Mark specific upgrades. Would those rules be up for consideration at all? Adding Dan's above fix.
Is anyone has had experience on these rules, please post!
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Hi Neferhet,
these are a bunch of interesting ideas. But I see a couple of heavy flaws as well.
Comments:
"Warp Incursion"
- Deployment:
- changing the time when a Daemon arrives and is able to act. Thumbs up.
- originally Daemons could be deployed next to enemy ships. Maybe I'm alone on that, but for me that was the whole point considering a Daemon Ship. - Movement:
- the "phase in/out" thing is a nice idea, but the rate of movement is way too unpredictable and way too slow. 2d6 average on a 7, meaning most Daemons (except Slaughter) would have an average movement of 14cm.
Needless to say that by turn 3 the Daemon would be way behind its own fleet.
- the loss of Hits when in contact with a terrain feature would imply that I can't safely maneuver through an asteroid field. Thumbs down.
"Ethereal hull"
- - usually a special order is something the ship and its crew do on its own. Change that to "cannot use fleet re-rolls".
- - halving the Daemons armament is just... painful? Nothing, not the deployment, not the movement, not the 5+ crit chance compensate for that loss. I won't pay 40pts for that, ever.
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Hi Neferhet,
these are a bunch of interesting ideas. But I see a couple of heavy flaws as well.
Comments:
"Warp Incursion"
- Deployment:
- changing the time when a Daemon arrives and is able to act. Thumbs up.
- originally Daemons could be deployed next to enemy ships. Maybe I'm alone on that, but for me that was the whole point considering a Daemon Ship. - Movement:
- the "phase in/out" thing is a nice idea, but the rate of movement is way too unpredictable and way too slow. 2d6 average on a 7, meaning most Daemons (except Slaughter) would have an average movement of 14cm.
Needless to say that by turn 3 the Daemon would be way behind its own fleet.
- the loss of Hits when in contact with a terrain feature would imply that I can't safely maneuver through an asteroid field. Thumbs down.
"Ethereal hull"
- - usually a special order is something the ship and its crew do on its own. Change that to "cannot use fleet re-rolls".
- - halving the Daemons armament is just... painful? Nothing, not the deployment, not the movement, not the 5+ crit chance compensate for that loss. I won't pay 40pts for that, ever.
I totally see your points.
About the positioning, consider that you can "Warp Incursion" a Dship next to "a capital ship". This means "any capital ship on the field". So even an enemy ship.
About movement, the randomness i so chaotic ;D! I thought that since you can materialize it next to an enemy ship, movement should not be a problem. Should be preferable to drop the random movement at all or to give 1d6 cm each 5 cm of normal movement?
About the hull point loss, let's drop that. Maybe it could stay if randomness is dropped?
About the shooting i was thinking to those ships more like boarding beasts. But I agree, thinking twice. Shooting power should be the same.
We could give an option to halve the shooting power in order not to pay any point increase??
About marks: yeah it's redundant to give something complex and unique another unneeded point of uniqueness. Marks can just be the same.
About torpedoes: perfect! Boarding torpedoes and assault boats/fighters! that would make more sense.
Orders: I was thinking that too. no rerolls (other than the ones deriving from its own abilities) can be used on orders failed by this ship.
What do you guys think about the other abilities?
immune to critical is kinda excessive. Maybe removing the 5+ save...
about the limitation?
@bessemer: i've never had experience with the plaxor's document. what was his take on the Dships?
@afterimagedan: your fix is neat and fast and could totslly work. but we should also decrease point cost.
I think that Demon ships should get some more love than just a better way to "deep strike". Either more abilities or less cost. Expecially if we think to limit their number.
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@Neferhet. I like your ideas but I think it may be better to keep it simple. How much of a point drop are you talking? What do you guys think is an appropriate limit to them? 1/1000pts?
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well, with your fix and the limit 1/1000 I could say +20 / 25 as a price for a daemonship. If you want to keep the price difference between cruisers, heavy cruisers and battleship i'd say +20 cruiser & HC / +35 battleship
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The player can choose the heading of the ship after its position is determined (this is a change).
Actually, it's not. FAQ2010 handles it exactly like that. :)
The chaos player can take the ship out of this "spectral" status at the beginning of a subsequent chaos turn and take control of the vessel normally (changed), even if in base contact with an enemy vessel (changed). Keep the "Haunting" stuff the same.
I don't know. I feel a bit uneasy to allow a Daemon to act on the round it goes solid. What do you think about switching the 'Warp Translation' to the Movement Phase instead? That would allow a Daemon to get summoned (movement) and solid (end phase) in one round. But it would give its enemys a chance to react, before the Daemon kicks their butts.
Strangely, though, FAQ2010 wouldn't allow a spectral Daemon to move...
/edit: Another thing I've thought about is ot allow the Daemon to switch back to spectral again, without dropping back to the Warp first.
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It seems to me like allowing the enemy first crack at the daemon ship is the entire problem. That makes it not worth it for me. I am going to try to daemon bomb the enemy, but they may just cripple/destroy it before it does anything. That is too much of a risk, especially for something that also may scatter. If the chaos vessel takes control first, the enemy can at least try to get a favorable position before the next turn, or just fly away from it.
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Strangely, though, FAQ2010 wouldn't allow a spectral Daemon to move...
Not strange at all. Combine the effects of a spectral Daemonship with the Mark of Slaanesh and the ability to dog the enemy and you get "not fun at all".
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Strangely, though, FAQ2010 wouldn't allow a spectral Daemon to move...
Not strange at all. Combine the effects of a spectral Daemonship with the Mark of Slaanesh and the ability to dog the enemy and you get "not fun at all".
True.
So it certainly should come down to...
- no move while spectral or
- no effect for marks while spectral.
It seems to me like allowing the enemy first crack at the daemon ship is the entire problem. That makes it not worth it for me. I am going to try to daemon bomb the enemy, but they may just cripple/destroy it before it does anything. That is too much of a risk, especially for something that also may scatter. If the chaos vessel takes control first, the enemy can at least try to get a favorable position before the next turn, or just fly away from it.
I know what you mean. But I think of that just as a matter of deployment.
- place Daemon 20cm (Armada/FAQ rules) behind the last enemy vessel
- the enemy drifts at least 10cm further (if not on special orders)
How many ships out there have a considerable firepower over 30cm? Noted, against Eldar or Necrons this won't work. On its own turn the Daemon can bring out his long range firepower.
I've got a compromise to your suggestion, though. If "becoming solid" would be considered a "move special order", thus halving weaponry on that turn, I could go with the Daemon bomb.
P.S.: One of our 'new' Relictor battleships daemon bombing a fleet with full weapon power at close range just gave me a shiver.
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I think no marks while spectral and weapons on half effect the turn chaos takes control. How about that?
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seems a good compromise. If the limitation 1/1000 stays, you could allow some more "initiative" to the ship. Maybe mark could be effective? We are talking about the slaanesh mark, of course. 15cm are easy to avoid, after all. This way Chaos fleet could have a great way, yet extremely limited and prone to retaliation, to broke an enemy formation.
In the end how it should work then?
Summary of the current iteration please :)
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I'd prefer spectral movement over spectral marks. The latter only works with the Mark of Slaanesh. Movement on the other hand helps to correct unlucky scatter rolls.
Summary:
- Availiability:
- A Daemon Ship is an upgrade on any capital ship availiable to a chaos fleet (with the exception of unique ships) that can be taken once every 1000pts.
- Upgrade cost:
- Battleship: +40pts
- Grand Cruiser: +30pts
- Heavy Cruiser: +25pts
- Cruiser: +20pts
- Light Cruiser: +15pts
- Special Rules:
- General:
- A Daemon cannot take a Commander or Chaos Space Marines, even if it is the biggest ship in the fleet..
- It can be equipped with one Mark of Chaos.
- A Daemon gets a boarding modifier of +1 due to its unnatural "crew" and "interior environment".
- The Daemon's weapons follow the normal rules of weapons according to its ship class, even if these weapons are in fact something else entirely.
- Deployment:
- May be kept of the table at normal deployment to be summoned later.
- In any chaos end phase, pick one capital ship and position the Daemon within 20cm to it.
Then roll a scatter die and 4D6 to see where the Daemon actually turnes up, facing a direction of the chaos player's choosing. At this point the Daemon is considered spectral.
- Spectral:
- A spectral Daemon moves normal according to the rules, but is not affected by obstacles like terrain or mines.
- All ships within 15cm of a spectral Daemon get -1Ld.
- A spectral Daemon may do nothing, except moving and becoming solid. It can't be targeted or harmed in return. In addition Chaos Marks that would affect other ships on the battlefield don't do so while the Daemon is spectral.
- "Special Order: Become solid". At the beginning of the chaos players phase the Daemon can be given the special order to become solid to act as a normal ships can. Roll a leadership test to see if the Daemon managed the transition. Just roll once for squadrons of Daemons. "Become solid" halves the ships firepower on that turn. If successful the Daemon becomes solid and may act as a normal ship from now on.
As usual the Daemon gets +1Ld if an enemy ship is on special orders this turn.
- Haunting:
- At the beginning of the chaos player's phase a Daemon can disengage without taking a leadership test. The Daemon is considered to be back in the Warp. Simply remove it from the rable.
- Lurking in the Warp a Daemon can repair critical damage normally. Additionally it can enter the game again using the same rules as listed in "Deployment".
- When the Daemon returns to the table roll a D6.
- 1,2: nothing happens
- 3,4: the Daemon regains 1 hit
- 5,6: the Daemon regains 2 hits
- add +1 to the roll for every turn the Daemon spent in the Warp after the first. The Daemon cannot get more hitpoints than a ship of its class would normally have.
- The Daemon is still considered "disengaged" for the purposes of victory points.
Puah. Large posts like this are exhausting to glue together if you don't want to forget something. :)
This is basically a "kit bash" of Armada, FAQ2010, Plaxors BFG:R and our ideas. Since the Daemons seem to draw considerably less attention than other stuff I hope this kind of gets it done.
Feel free to comment.
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I love it. It's only slightly different than the normal version but I think the small changes make it much better. I think the buffed Haunting rules make it more useful and the point costs are much more reasonable. I think we should vote to implement these.
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I'd prefer spectral movement over spectral marks. The latter only works with the Mark of Slaanesh. Movement on the other hand helps to correct unlucky scatter rolls.
I guess you are right. Agreed.
Summary:
- Availiability:
- A Daemon Ship is an upgrade on any capital ship availiable to a chaos fleet (with the exception of unique ships) that can be taken once every 1000pts.
- Upgrade cost:
- Battleship: +40pts
- Grand Cruiser: +30pts
- Heavy Cruiser: +25pts
- Cruiser: +20pts
- Light Cruiser: +15pts
- Special Rules:
- General:
- A Daemon cannot take a Commander or Chaos Space Marines, even if it is the biggest ship in the fleet..
- It can be equipped with one Mark of Chaos.
- A Daemon gets a boarding modifier of +1 due to its unnatural "crew" and "interior environment".
This, i imagine, is in addition to the Chaos +1 ?
- The Daemon's weapons follow the normal rules of weapons according to its ship class, even if these weapons are in fact something else entirely.
- Deployment:
- May be kept of the table at normal deployment to be summoned later.
- In any chaos end phase, pick one capital ship and position the Daemon within 20cm to it.
Then roll a scatter die and 4D6 to see where the Daemon actually turnes up, facing a direction of the chaos player's choosing. At this point the Daemon is considered spectral.
If I may, I'd give ships with the same mark an advantage. So if a DShip has a mark, it will not scatter if appearing within 20 cm of a ship with the same mark.
- Spectral:
- A spectral Daemon moves normal according to the rules, but is not affected by obstacles like terrain or mines.
- All ships within 15cm of a spectral Daemon get -1Ld.
- A spectral Daemon may do nothing, except moving and becoming solid. It can't be targeted or harmed in return. In addition Chaos Marks that would affect other ships on the battlefield don't do so while the Daemon is spectral.
- "Special Order: Become solid". At the beginning of the chaos players phase the Daemon can be given the special order to become solid to act as a normal ships can. Roll a leadership test to see if the Daemon managed the transition. Just roll once for squadrons of Daemons. "Become solid" halves the ships firepower on that turn. If successful the Daemon becomes solid and may act as a normal ship from now on.
As usual the Daemon gets +1Ld if an enemy ship is on special orders this turn.
This is not so appealing. Nice, but dangerous for the Chaos player. I pay points for a ship that can be useless for 2+ turns, if just a single wrong dice roll occurs. You cannot even have a commander on the ship to boost morale. There is also a not so small chance that you will get Ld 6 DShips. Good luck becoming real!
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[li]Haunting:
- At the beginning of the chaos player's phase a Daemon can disengage without taking a leadership test. The Daemon is considered to be back in the Warp. Simply remove it from the table.
- Lurking in the Warp a Daemon can repair critical damage normally. Additionally it can enter the game again using the same rules as listed in "Deployment".
- When the Daemon returns to the table roll a D6.
- 1,2: nothing happens
- 3,4: the Daemon regains 1 hit
- 5,6: the Daemon regains 2 hits
- add +1 to the roll for every turn the Daemon spent in the Warp after the first. The Daemon cannot get more hitpoints than a ship of its class would normally have.
- The Daemon is still considered "disengaged" for the purposes of victory points.
So, if I just want to give away free Victory points, I'll just take a Dship. This, imho, must go. We could say that, at the end of the game, if itìs still in he warp, it counts as disengaged.
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Puah. Large posts like this are exhausting to glue together if you don't want to forget something. :)
This is basically a "kit bash" of Armada, FAQ2010, Plaxors BFG:R and our ideas. Since the Daemons seem to draw considerably less attention than other stuff I hope this kind of gets it done.
Feel free to comment.
It's really a good "kitbash" as you call it :)
There are many good points.
I'm sorry to be so annoying, but if we really aim to make DShips viable, we must give them some appeal. Since those are even limited we can add something useful. Like NOT halving the firepower in the turn they become solid. That would be nasty.
Besides, here is a simple scenario to better understand my point:
let's pretend a IN fleet clashes with a Chaos fleet.
IN has the first turn.
In the End phase of Chaos first turn the ships "haunts" an enemy ship of the same tonnage (say a Cruiser).
In the second turn the IN ship moves away an avarage 20 cm (or 36 cm avarage, if All ahead full was used).
The Dship tries to become solid. Chanches are (with an avarage ld 7+1 Ld if IN has Special Orders) 66,666 % of positive outcome. Then, we will have (pratically) a crippled ship firing a no longer so near target, probably surrounded by enemies and far from our fleet.
Next turn the Dship soak a lot of short ranged firepower and is statistically forced to disengage in the warp, thus becoming useless for 2 turns more and conceding the enemy victory points!!
So, my point is: why pay more for a ship that has his main utility "behind enemy lines" but cannot punch hard enough when appearing and is realistically unable to survive retaliation without being useless for almost half the game?
Sorry again :P
EDIT: I know, some post before this I agreed with halving the firepower whee becoming real. But it's really an handicap. I've made some mathcrunching, and there's really a small chanche to actually hurt something with half firepower, even with a battleship.
I just want some more love for the DShips!! :D
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Actually the Daemonship can move after being solid, thus it can close the 36cm gap again.
Pretty good work by the way Brethren.
As for Neferhet's mark idea and not scattering: this is an added rule, needing more lines to explain. I wouldn't do it. If they're in squadron they use 1 dice roll. But not in a squadron, even with same mark. Just to keep it more streamlined regarding rule writing.
Counting a daemonship in the warp when the games ends as disengaged for VPS is good.
As for becoming spectral on a Ld roll: yes, Ld6 will hurt. Perhaps just a D6 roll: on a 1 it fails, on 2-6 it works?
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Thank you guys. I'm happy to provide something useful. :)
I love it. It's only slightly different than the normal version but I think the small changes make it much better. I think the buffed Haunting rules make it more useful and the point costs are much more reasonable. I think we should vote to implement these.
Actually that's Plaxor's approach. I compared BFG:R to FAQ/Armada and picked the more favorable rules.
As for becoming spectral on a Ld roll: yes, Ld6 will hurt. Perhaps just a D6 roll: on a 1 it fails, on 2-6 it works?
That's the Armada way. :)
But you're right. May be the Special Order is a bit harsh. How about we alter the rule to:
- Daemon gets solid anyway
- Daemon gets full firepower on successful Ld-roll / half firepower if not successful
The main ideas behind the "special order" thing are, keeping the Daemons rules close to the normal rules... and preventing the Daemon from getting another special order on the arriving turn. (I.e. Lock-on with a Daemon bombing battleship)
- A Daemon gets a boarding modifier of +1 due to its unnatural "crew" and "interior environment".
This, i imagine, is in addition to the Chaos +1 ?
That was the idea.
In any chaos end phase, pick one capital ship and position the Daemon within 20cm to it.
Then roll a scatter die and 4D6 to see where the Daemon actually turnes up, facing a direction of the chaos player's choosing. At this point the Daemon is considered spectral.
If I may, I'd give ships with the same mark an advantage. So if a DShip has a mark, it will not scatter if appearing within 20 cm of a ship with the same mark.
A good though in general, but like horizon I think that addition is not necessary. If you drop the Daemon to your own fleet there's more room for "failure". 4D6 average on a 14cm... that's not really far from where you wanted it anyway. (Plus, if two Chaos fleets battle, this could become confusing. ;) )
The Daemon is still considered "disengaged" for the purposes of victory points.
So, if I just want to give away free Victory points, I'll just take a Dship. This, imho, must go. We could say that, at the end of the game, if itìs still in he warp, it counts as disengaged.
The Daemon is considered "disengaged" for the purposes of victory points if the game ends and the Daemon is still in the Warp.
I'm fine with that. :)
I'd like to point out that the "summoning (end phase), becoming solid (movemend phase)"-version has another really nasty tweak if you think about it... faster re-appearing.
- turn 1 /end phase: summon as spectral
- turn 2 /movement: become solid, move and fire
/enemy: be shot at, go on BFI
- turn 3 /movement: drop back to the warp
/end phase: summon as spectral, get roll to regain hits
- turn 4 /movement: become solid... and go again
This way the Daemon is only out for one round, before it comes into action again. If you had to brace your Daemon you won't get much firepower from it anyway, so just drop out and repair the damage.
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Hi brethren :)
About the +1 on boarding: perfect.
"- Daemon gets full firepower on successful Ld-roll / half firepower if not successful"
LOVE this. :-* of course with no kind of rerolls allowed
"The main ideas behind the "special order" thing are, keeping the Daemons rules close to the normal rules... and preventing the Daemon from getting another special order on the arriving turn. (I.e. Lock-on with a Daemon bombing battleship)"
We can just clarify this: DShips cannot take special orders the turn they appear.
About the mark thing, yes, it may be confusing. Let's drop it.
"summoning (end phase), becoming solid (movemend phase)"
aw, now I get it. I was stuck tinking you could reappear only in the NEXT end phase. Dunno why. I apologize for not having understood this. This is the kind of love i was looking for DShips.
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I agree with the current trend of the thread but two things I have a hard time with. If we make it 2+ to solidify, we should not allow for a ship to not have half firepower. That would really allow for a Relictorbomb. I say 2+, no special orders, half firepower the turn they arrive. At bare minimum, paying points for the ship to be a daemon ship is basically a way to give a +1 to boarding (which is a hefty cost when other fleets take it) and the ability to appear very close to enemy ships in offer the exact place you want them without being shot up on the way. Halving the firepower the turn it arrives prevents it from being too overpowered. If you Relictorbomb them, they pretty much have to get out of there on their turn, and that's part of the point. However, depending on the fleet and how they choose to move, you may he able to be in close range next turn. So full FP in close range is too much for this.
I think 2+ to arrive, half FP the turn you arrive+not allowing for a free turn of shooting against you (like then old rules) is a great balance.
Also, the disengage thing: its only counted as disengaging when you reenter the warp. This his usually when you are in a dangerous place and are going to disengage anyways. This is a boost because you don't have to stay gone; you can heal up and return. I think that's really nice.
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I support the ld check with succeed is full firepower, with failed half.
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Well, afterimagedan, I'm not certainly going to fight on those points :D
Anyway, we are speaking about a limited ship. If you are troubled by the relictormbomb, then I say you are trobled about a 340 point ship in an average 1500 pts fleets. I would be troubled anyway!!
I fell that if we let things too similar to the current situation, we are not going to improve the DShip. It will just stay on the shelf. For now we just agreed over a limitation and a better entrance system. We barely mitigated its flaws. We need something to make it useful. And just the +1 to boarding is not a real allure, to my eyes.
About that we can have a little more debating, if you are ok. Maybe we can find an optimal and shared solution.
But, about the victory points: I would feel really baffled to concede my opponent VP just for using an ability of my ship! You say that if you use the "warp" option, it's mainly because you would have done it anyway to save your Axx, and coming back it's just a bonus. I say, instead, that the "warp" option adds a tactical dimesion to the Dship. I wouldn't use this ability just to escape. I would use it to appear where most needed, cutting line of fire, forcing Ld check to shoot a farther target, to menace the rear of a lonesome ship, to save another ship from incoming ordnance...in short I would use it really often. Knowing that I would concede VP doing this just gives me an option and suddenly removes it.
Really, I'm totally ok with the half firepower, but about the victory points I'm going to be North Korean!!! ;D
Edit: maybe we could say this:
-ld check with succeed is full firepower, with failed half.
-Victory points conceded when disengaged
But limitation, half firepower, possible failure on 1 to "become real" AND conceding VP it's just shouting "To the shelf!!"
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In would be willing to drop the victory points for warping out if we drop the +1 boarding. Give them mark of khorne And you have the best boarding in then game just about. I think a daemon ship doing what it does in going back into the warp should not find the enemy more victory points. So then, how does the daemon ship actually fully disengage? How do you get victory points at the disengage level against a daemon ship? Do you basically just have to blow it up? That's too powerful for a +20pt upgrade on a cruiser considering the bonus deployment rules as well. We can't give a cruiser +1 boarding, amazing deployment special rules, ability to disengage and heal up and reappear without penalty of victory points, all for just 20pts.
How about this:
Same deployment brethren posted
No +1 boarding
LD test to not be at half firepower (maybe)
Spectral like we have been discussing and become normal on 2+.
Haunting won't cause disengage VPs but if the ship is gone when the game would end, its considered disengaged. If the ship was crippled at any time, it is considered crippled for VP at the end of the game. It the ship disengages while crippled, it is considered disengaged for the purpose of VPs. (!!!)
What about that?
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Summary:
- Availiability:
- A Daemon Ship is an upgrade on any capital ship availiable to a chaos fleet (with the exception of unique ships) that can be taken once every 1000pts.
This sounds like a reasonable limit.
- Upgrade cost:
- Battleship: +40pts
- Grand Cruiser: +30pts
- Heavy Cruiser: +25pts
- Cruiser: +20pts
- Light Cruiser: +15pts
What is the basis for these costs?
- Special Rules:
- General:
- A Daemon cannot take a Commander or Chaos Space Marines, even if it is the biggest ship in the fleet..
- It can be equipped with one Mark of Chaos.
- A Daemon gets a boarding modifier of +1 due to its unnatural "crew" and "interior environment".
- The Daemon's weapons follow the normal rules of weapons according to its ship class, even if these weapons are in fact something else entirely.
Nice and simple, Im not convinced they need the extra boarding modifier tho.
- Deployment:
- May be kept off the table at normal deployment to be summoned later.
- In any chaos end phase, pick one capital ship and position the Daemon within 20cm to it.
Then roll a scatter die and 4D6 to see where the Daemon actually turnes up, facing a direction of the chaos player's choosing. At this point the Daemon is considered spectral.
May? Are we implying they can be deployed during the standard deployment then ;).
Why are we insisting on sticking with the absurd scatter die. Does anyone have a good reason to retain this considering the ship can move anyway.
- Spectral:
- A spectral Daemon moves normal according to the rules, but is not affected by obstacles like terrain or mines.
- All ships within 15cm of a spectral Daemon get -1Ld.
- A spectral Daemon may do nothing, except moving and becoming solid. It can't be targeted or harmed in return. In addition Chaos Marks that would affect other ships on the battlefield don't do so while the Daemon is spectral.
- "Special Order: Become solid". At the beginning of the chaos players phase the Daemon can be given the special order to become solid to act as a normal ships can. Roll a leadership test to see if the Daemon managed the transition. Just roll once for squadrons of Daemons. "Become solid" halves the ships firepower on that turn. If successful the Daemon becomes solid and may act as a normal ship from now on.
As usual the Daemon gets +1Ld if an enemy ship is on special orders this turn.
This needs to be cleaned up. Why are we nerfingthe MoS? This has been cumulative since daemons were introduced. Im not a fan of the "special order", much better to just state:
At the end of any subsequent Chaos Movement phase
it may complete the translation to real space. It
does not have to and may remain a spectral,
haunting presence as long as the Chaos player
wishes. When the decision is made to translate
to real space roll a D6 - on a roll of 2 or more it
becomes solid. This final translation cannot be
made if the Daemonship is in contact with an
enemy vessel. No actions can be undertaken in
the Movement phase during which final translation
occurs (no sneaky special orders or
suchlike). From this point on the Daemonship is
solid and fights like a normal ship.
- Haunting:
- At the beginning of the chaos player's phase a Daemon can disengage without taking a leadership test. The Daemon is considered to be back in the Warp. Simply remove it from the table.
- Lurking in the Warp a Daemon can repair critical damage normally. Additionally it can enter the game again using the same rules as listed in "Deployment".
- When the Daemon returns to the table roll a D6.
- 1,2: nothing happens
- 3,4: the Daemon regains 1 hit
- 5,6: the Daemon regains 2 hits
- add +1 to the roll for every turn the Daemon spent in the Warp after the first. The Daemon cannot get more hitpoints than a ship of its class would normally have.
I really dislike them being able to even come back after disengaging much less gaining hit points back but if we must keep this then it shouldnt be any easier for them to regain those hit points. 1-3 no result, 4-5= 1 hit, 6= 2 hits seems like plenty.
- The Daemon is still considered "disengaged" for the purposes of victory points.
I can agree with dropping this *unless the ship is still disengaged at the end of the game. If the ship becomes crippled it should remain crippled for victory purposes reguardless of what its hit points are at the end of the game.
USING DAEMON SHIPS IN
BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC
The basic profile of a ship, which is upgraded to
a Daemon ship remains unchanged. It does not
matter what broadside weapons you replace
with Daemon ship components the ship’s
profile is not changed.
The points cost to upgrade a capital ship to a
Daemon ship is as follows:
Battleship . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
Grand cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
Heavy cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
Cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
A Daemon ship may not be commanded by a
Warmaster or a Chaos Lord even if it is the
largest ship in the fleet. This is an exception to
the normal rule. A Daemon ship may not have a
Chaos Space Marine crew. A maximum of one
capital ship per 1000 points or part can be
upgraded to Daemon ships subject to these
limitations. Daemonships cannot be used in
squadrons.
Daemon ships cannot carry Exterminatus
weapons and do not score any points for
landing troops in a planetary assault (the
Daemons are bound within the hull of their
vessel, whilst able to board enemy ships
normally in the context of a BFG game they
would become unstable if holding a planetary
objective for any length of time).
Any Daemon ship may have a single Mark of
Chaos with the same effects and cost in points
as described in the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook.
Daemon ship Leadership is rolled as normal (ie,
1=6, 2,3=7, 4,5=8, 6=9).
WARP TRANSLATION
A Daemonship must be kept off table at the start
of a game. The rest of the fleet is deployed as
stated in the rules for the mission being played.
The Daemonship(s) are actually lurking in the
Warp waiting to either be summoned by one of
the on-table Chaos ships or drawn to the ripe
souls aboard an enemy ship. In the Movement
phase of any Chaos turn, including the first, they
may enter play from the Warp as follows:
Select a friendly or enemy Capital ship, only a
Capital ship contains enough supplicants or
victims to draw a Daemonship from the Warp.
Position the Daemonship within 20cm of the
chosen vessel facing in any direction desired by
the Chaos player controlling it.
The arriving Daemonship is unaffected by
celestial phenomena and does not trigger attack
by ordnance markers in contact.
SPECTRAL DAEMONSHIPS
The Daemonship has now pierced the fabric of
real space and has started to manifest itself. It is
not entirely present in real space, however,
although it is real enough for enemy vessels to
track its location and react to its presence. It is
in effect a spectre. Any enemy vessel attempting
a special order when within 15cm of it is at -1
Leadership (if the ship also has a Mark of
Slaanesh the penalties are cumulative). Apart
from this, it has no effect, can do nothing to
affect enemy ships and cannot be harmed in
return. It cannot launch ordnance, trigger
mines, be affected by celestial phenomena,
nothing, at all – OK!
At the end of any subsequent Chaos Movement
phase it may complete the translation to real
space. It does not have to and may remain a
spectral, haunting presence as long as the Chaos
player wishes. When the decision is made to translate
to real space make a leadership test. Reguardless of
the result it becomes solid, but if the leadership test
is failed the Daemonship will halve all weapons
firepower and strengths until the end of the turn.
This final translation cannot be made if the Daemonship
is in contact with an enemy vessel. No actions can be
undertaken in the movement phase during which final
translation occurs except standard movement and turns
(no sneaky special orders or suchlike). From this point
on the Daemonship is solid and fights like a normal ship.
If a Daemon ship fully materializes in contact with
celestial phenomena, it suffers any effects of those
celestial phenomena, such as gas clouds, asteroid
fields, etc. before the start of its movement phase.
However, if it materializes in an asteroid field, it may
then attempt to avoid damage by making a leadership
check normally.
HAUNTING
A Daemonship may disengage at the end of any
Chaos Movement phase without having to make
any dice roll. It simply drops back into the Warp
leaving no trace.
A disengaged Daemonship may re-enter play on
any Chaos turn following the one in which it
disengages. This is done following the
translation rules detailed above.
If it was damaged when it disengaged it may be
repaired when it returns, roll a d6,
1,2 or 3 No change.
4 or 5 +1 hull point.
6 +2 hull points.
Add +1 to the roll if it is a battleship.
Add +1 for each full turn the Daemonship spent
in the Warp.
A returning Daemonship cannot come back with
more hits than it could normally have. A
Daemonship will only count as disengaged if it is
currently disengaged at the end of the game for
Victory points purposes, unless of course it is
destroyed or crippled, then the normal rules apply.
A Daemonship which is crippled will always count
as crippled for Victory points purposes, reguardless
of how many hit points it has remaining at the end
of the game.
When a Daemonship is "haunting‟ or is spectral it
can still suffer damage from fire critical hits. In
addition to repairing damage, they may repair
critical hits while in the warp rolling normally,
repairing critical damage on a 4+ as opposed to a 6.
Daemonships do not automatically regain hits after
each battle. They have to be regained either in a game
by warp translation or by expending repair points, or
they can be withdrawn normally.
Edited to replace the 2+ to become solid with the leadership test.
Edited to add relevant revisions from the FAQ
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A limit of no more than 20-25% of your fleets points might be a better way to keep people from dropping a beastly BB down also.
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Aye,
We are really fixing the daemonships? awesomesauce. 8)
25% seems reasonable. It would allow for a Desolator in 1500pts.
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Andrew, thats great!
I agree with the removal of +1 boarding, altough I'd expect a DShip to be something like a frigging daemon nest, not so easily boarded :)
About the "no scatter" i'm not so convinced. If the ship can move when spectral, even the turn it appears on the board, we should give it a chanche not to always appear right in the back of any ship. Especially if it has a chanche to retain full firepower. Besides, I can agree with that. (let's love the DShip)
The reduced repair chart is good. A little bit too harsh maybe? I'd say
1-2 nothing
3-5 1 hull point
6 2 hull point
-add +1 to the roll for every turn the Daemon spent in the Warp after the first. (this might be excessive if paired with faster crit repair)
I don't know if the bonus on crit repair is maybe a little too OP.
It depends on the final cost of the upgrade i guess.
Limitation 25% seems legit. Demon upgrade cost comprehensive or not? I propend to make this limitation on the unmodified ship cost, as per statline.
About the rest, i'm with you.
To recap the ship will appear using the "slower" way ( No more fast reappearing if i read right, :( ), but may retain full firepower, when spectral the MoS is cumulative with the "haunting" thing, smaller repair chance , no conceding points BUT if they crippled you once, you concede VP even if you repair, considered disengaged only if effectively disengaged at the end.
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The added repair bonus as you propose Neferhet is excessive imo. Even the 2 hit repair on a 6 is quite good already.
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Without the additional repair bonus, it seems reasonable.
Giving it a possibility of full firepower after Ld test makes it viable and not overpowered - it can't lock on on the turn it arrives, so this game has way more destructive guaranteed alpha strikes than this one.
I'd make limitation counting with upgrade cost - it makes calculations easier.
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Giving it a possibility of full firepower after Ld test makes it viable and not overpowered - it can't lock on on the turn it arrives, so this game has way more destructive guaranteed alpha strikes than this one.
I'd make limitation counting with upgrade cost - it makes calculations easier.
just curiosity of a noob: wich are the alpha strike you are speaking of?
About the upgrade cost: how can we calculate something not broken or crippling?
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The scatter die rule isn't absurd, especially if we are possibly going to allow for full firepower the turn it becomes solid. At this point, 40pts to drop a battleship wherever you want within 20cm of the enemy and most likely able to fire full FP the turn it solidifies and allowing it full movement is a steal and overpowered, not to mention the other benefits.
The reason we should be adding the rule that says marks can work while spectral is it encourages the marks that actually can do something while spectral and makes them better than others that don't. For example, Slaanesh can work but Khorne can't. Also, Nurgle doesn't do anything because +1 hit doesn't matter while spectral. This would just encourage Slaanesh Slaughter bombs above other options. We should even it out by making the marks not function during spectral.
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A limit of no more than 20-25% of your fleets points might be a better way to keep people from dropping a beastly BB down also.
Chaos already has to put the admiral on the biggest ship so taking 2 battleships in order to make one daemon self limits unless i missed something.
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just curiosity of a noob: wich are the alpha strike you are speaking of?
Entire Dark Eldar fleet comes to mind ;)
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IN nova spam, Eldar Torp rush, or any AAF ordinance strike all have the potential to be devistating first strikes. Mms has helped alot with the torp spam and the restriction on novas has nipped that gem. The ordinance strike is pretty self regulating as most of the ships that really pull it off well are extremly slow, weak, or expensive.
Explain why you have to take two battleships to make one.
The scatter is unneeded. The enemy fleet still gets a full turn in order to adjust for its presense before it can become solid and even if we do retain the scatter its only going to encourage people to plop the shop down right on top of the target and still end up within 20cm of it on average.
The MoS wouldnt be an automatic first choice? MoK or MoN would both be much better choices for an alpha strike ship, the MoS is more incidental and at a minimum of almost 200pts I dont see people buying these just to sit around and do nothing :). This wouldnt be an issue at all if we gave the spectral ships a holofield like quality and allowed the enemy to take pot shots at them (dont allow them to fire until theyre solid tho of course.) This would encourage you to refrain from staying spectral indefinitely and reduce the "FU" nature of them.
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Chaos already has to put the admiral on the biggest ship so taking 2 battleships in order to make one daemon self limits unless i missed something.
well, i could just have an entire fleet of Murder, with 1 devastation, and a Demon Desolator.
The Admiral goes on to the Devastation, cause Desolator cannot have an admiral.
I don't need another Battleship...
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You still need to follow normal fleet restrictions to field a battleship, the daemon upgrade comes later.
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Besides, I don't see how MoS is an auto choice. What's the point of using my limited ship for a - 3 Ld on a ship or maybe two , without firing a shot for more than one turn? I'm never going to pay an avarage 200 pts tax just to reduce Ld of a couple of ships.
Instead, MoK seems really cool to have, cause you can crunch them in boarding actions and then appear right next to another ship. MoN is just good enough by himself.
MoT..well...I don't like it.
Andrew, i think the general idea is not to add qualities or ruels that may complicate things too much. So, no holofield like. See my first sentence. That's pointless.
About the scatter dice: we could have a vote for that?
I ask, not knowing the exact use of the votes you make.
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You still need to follow normal fleet restrictions to field a battleship, the daemon upgrade comes later.
This will need clarification - Rules have to say that because warmaster must be on biggest ship, it can't be upgraded to demonship.
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A Daemon ship may not be commanded by a
Warmaster or a Chaos Lord even if it is the
largest ship in the fleet. This is an exception to
the normal rule. A Daemon ship may not have a
Chaos Space Marine crew.
This has always been the rule so I dont understand the issue here? You do require 3 cruisers/heavy cruisers tho but that is not changed.
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@AndrewChristlieb:
- the basis for the point costs was Plaxor's BFG:R Daemon List
- The boarding modifier was something I got from BFG:R as well, but I agree it's not that necessary.
- Deployment: The "may" was there since Armada.
- I've got no objections against using the Armada Haunting Repair Table.
- The nerf of the Mark of Slaanesh is necessary to get rid of another flaw. When you read the FAQ you may have missed the part that says that spectral Daemons don't move. The -1Ld (-3 with MoS) are worth nothing like that, because (unlucky scatter aside) with his next move the enemy will be out of 15cm.
On the other hand, just allowing Spectres to move would give the MoS a too huge boost, when you consider we added light cruisers to the chaos forces. - Victory Points: I support the consensus on: Disengaged if in the Warp at the end of the game. Crippled if crippled at least once during the game.
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Can't we just say: no Demonic Light Cruisers? ;)
Besides, I think that we can agree on the "no mark effects when spectral". It's a good way for descouraging people to stay ethereal. But I would like to see some compensation, like no scatter dice. Scatter dice is useless, if the ship can move while ethereal, as previously stated. Plus, it makes things faster. Less dice to roll.
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No light cruisers is fine.
I suppose if everyone thinks the MoS is a huge problem then nerfing it is ok :/.
The revision in the faq about daemon ships being unable to move was stupid, even if MoS was a problem and thats why I omited it i. The version I posted.
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VPS: okay as in:
when in warp at end of game counts as disengaged. When once crippled it counts as crippled even if end hitpoints are uncrippled.
@Khar, As Andrwes says, what is the issue?
Fleet Selection per usual with all restrictions.
If you decide to upgrade your biggest ship to daemonship the warmaster is placed on the 2nd biggest ship.
Drop the boarding modifier: ok
okay: -1 Ld to enemies while spectral, no mark effects.
okay: getting solid has leadership test:
failed = halved
succeed = full
The last issue it seems (and perhaps proper point allocation) is to be on the solid moment. To scatter or not to scatter.
The direction is the same with scatter, but max distance away could be 24cm. (4d6).
Perhaps a lowering to 3d6 or even 2d6?
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This has always been the rule so I dont understand the issue here? You do require 3 cruisers/heavy cruisers tho but that is not changed.
I may be wrong, but I always interpreted current rule like this:
If you have, for instance, 3 cruisers and a battleship and upgrade battleship to a daemonship, your warmaster must be on the most expensive cruiser (as he can't be on the daemonship, even though its most expensive)
What is needed, IMO, is forbidding making most expensive ship from being upgraded to a daemonship, as it would make it impossible for warmaster to be on it.
That version would remove daemon battleships from smaller games - you would need 2 battleships for one of them to be daemonship.
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Hey Khar,
but as I said, the warmaster goes on biggest per usual but if biggest is daemon he goes on 2nd biggest.
Easy solution and not bending rules in my opinion.
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3d6 is ok, 2d6 is worthless tho as anyone with orks knows (AAF) :/.
Why is the largest ship being a Daemon a problem tho?
Speaking of, IMO it should be noted that the Daemonship is not a part of the fleet and may not use fleet commander re-rolls.
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I'm just not sure if I agree with allowing dropping daemon battleship on enemy's head in small battles... However, if majority doesn't see this as a problem, I'll concede my point.
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The last issue it seems (and perhaps proper point allocation) is to be on the solid moment. To scatter or not to scatter.
The direction is the same with scatter, but max distance away could be 24cm. (4d6).
Perhaps a lowering to 3d6 or even 2d6?
Lowering it makes it even more useless. The avarage ship will cover any scatter with its bare movement.
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@ Neferhet,
More useless, why? Less scatter is more in position where you want it to be.
@ Khar,
ah, that is your problem.
It is still that in a small battle, lets say 1000pts, it is still a edgy to make the BB the daemonship.
Perhaps we should build in: if the Ld roll when getting solid is a double 1 the daemon does not appear and is dragged back into the warp never to re-appear... lol
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@ Neferhet,
More useless, why? Less scatter is more in position where you want it to be.
useless because if I can place my ship within 20 cm, then scatter (say an above avarage) 18 an then move 20, i'm exactly where I was before, without having to roll. IMO scatter is functional do disturb your placement only if you cannot move. Otherwise, to make it functional while moving we should make it an incredible 8/6d6 scatter!!
That is why I deem scatter with moving Dships useless
@ Khar,
ah, that is your problem.
It is still that in a small battle, lets say 1000pts, it is still a edgy to make the BB the daemonship.
Perhaps we should build in: if the Ld roll when getting solid is a double 1 the daemon does not appear and is dragged back into the warp never to re-appear... lol
Argh! That would be a stroke!! but I couldn't really accept a daemon ship losing into warp! they inhabit it!
Khar's issue might be not so terrible. In a 1000 pts fleet you can have just 1 DShip. You are paying for it and you cannot have it benefit from reroll ol Ld boost. In fact, using a DShip in 1000 pts is almost like using a Battleship. Costly and risky. Certainly strong and useful, but not so OP.
I don't think it's so powerful to limit it further.
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This has always been the rule so I dont understand the issue here? You do require 3 cruisers/heavy cruisers tho but that is not changed.
I may be wrong, but I always interpreted current rule like this:
If you have, for instance, 3 cruisers and a battleship and upgrade battleship to a daemonship, your warmaster must be on the most expensive cruiser (as he can't be on the daemonship, even though its most expensive)
What is needed, IMO, is forbidding making most expensive ship from being upgraded to a daemonship, as it would make it impossible for warmaster to be on it.
That version would remove daemon battleships from smaller games - you would need 2 battleships for one of them to be daemonship.
Your position on this was where I was but I think hey are right. It shouldn't be a big deal to just add a statement (maybe not even needed) that, if the biggest is a daemon ship, it just moves to the second biggest.
I think the point cost should be a percentage round to nearest 5 like a few of the new Tyranid evolutions. I think that's the path we should be going on.
I still support then scatter because I think there should be some randomness and unpredictability in warping in. Also, 4D6 isn't so bad, plus you roll a hit 1/3 of the time.
Horizon: the rolling double 1s dissappear is a little too dangerous for my taste!
Neferhet, even if you scatter 18cm, you are still 18cm of the place where you wanted your ship, so there is still some disruption.
I am fine with allowing a daemon battleship at 1000pts if it is properly priced.
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@afterimagedan
I'm ok with the scatter.
just saying that it does not provides me any disruption.
If I want to be near a ship, i place myself near that ship.
Then, even if I scatter 24cm, i'm just 4 cm (at worst) from where i wanted to be. I'm sorry, but i can't see how this scatter can disaturb me if i can autocorrect it moving after appearing (tha avarage chaos cruiser has 25 cm of move, so...)
About the pricing: 10% seems pretty good to me with a extra +15 pts for battleships, maybe
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10% of cost seems... a bit low? We need to get to a point that we can agree on everything before attempting to price. I do like the idea of a percantage based cost structure but then I think there are some obvious choices for this and theyre not all expensive to begin with. The Slaughter for example is the cheapest cruiser and one of the most obvious choices, this will make it much more effective than say a Carnage or even an Acheron or Hades so why should it be cheaper?
My problem with the scatter is as stated, its pointless. I scatter 24cm, place my ship on an approach that will intercept the enemy cruiser and proceed to compleatly negate the scatter... It should be noted that when I read deployment during the Movement phase I was thinking that it could deploy but not move, hense why I stated that it would deploy at the end of the Movement phase, after any actual movement.
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Well, the Slaughter issue is a good point...better to think later about the point cost.
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@afterimagedan
I'm ok with the scatter.
just saying that it does not provides me any disruption.
If I want to be near a ship, i place myself near that ship.
Then, even if I scatter 24cm, i'm just 4 cm (at worst) from where i wanted to be. I'm sorry, but i can't see how this scatter can disaturb me if i can autocorrect it moving after appearing (tha avarage chaos cruiser has 25 cm of move, so...)
About the pricing: 10% seems pretty good to me with a extra +15 pts for battleships, maybe
Try it in a game and you will see why it's a disruption from getting to the optimal place. If you scatter 24cm, you are 24cm from where you COULD have been had you not scattered. If you didn't scatter, you could have positioned your ship much better to take advantage of boarding, close ranged shooting, etc.
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10% of cost seems... a bit low? We need to get to a point that we can agree on everything before attempting to price. I do like the idea of a percantage based cost structure but then I think there are some obvious choices for this and theyre not all expensive to begin with. The Slaughter for example is the cheapest cruiser and one of the most obvious choices, this will make it much more effective than say a Carnage or even an Acheron or Hades so why should it be cheaper?
My problem with the scatter is as stated, its pointless. I scatter 24cm, place my ship on an approach that will intercept the enemy cruiser and proceed to compleatly negate the scatter... It should be noted that when I read deployment during the Movement phase I was thinking that it could deploy but not move, hense why I stated that it would deploy at the end of the Movement phase, after any actual movement.
I think my previous post answers this. If you scatter, you can "negate" the scatter by getting back to where you were, but with no scatter, you could have gone much further ahead and positioned yourself where you wanted. If we want to go with no moving in the first movement phase, then the scatter isn't as important. If we want to give the ship the ability to move when it arrives as spectral in the first turn, we should have a scatter.
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Once again I dont see the point of the scatter, but due to this I also dont have a problem retaining it.
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I would add that I am OK with us not using a scatter if we don't allow the ship to move in the first turn it arrives.
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No move? Then scatter it should be.
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So no scatter, cant move on the turn it appears but can move in subsequent turns? Thats fine by me.
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So no scatter, cant move on the turn it appears but can move in subsequent turns? Thats fine by me.
Yeah I think that's the best. Basically, the Chaos player can put it where it wants, but the enemy will have a turn to try to set up a counter attack or a turn to oh sh*t and get the hell out of there. That way, the -1 to LD can be guaranteed an effect, which I think is cool.
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Disagree.
If it can't move it counts as a defence on the gunnery chart -> deer in the headlight syndrom.
I thought we wanted to make the daemon ship a proper choice? ;)
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Disagree.
If it can't move it counts as a defence on the gunnery chart -> deer in the headlight syndrom.
I thought we wanted to make the daemon ship a proper choice? ;)
It can't be shot at at that point because it's a spectral ship though.
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Wait..
so... turn 2 I decide to become solid (in the end phase? or in the movement phase? if in movement phase what happens in shooting phase?).
No scatter.
Ship does not move at a distance of 5cm of IN cruiser.
IN cruiser moves 20cm, but cannot shoot at d-vessels as it is still somewhat spectral.
Chaos turn again: ship solid. May it make special orders? By rules, yes it seems.
Locks On. Moves 12-25cm (or 15-30 for Slaughter) to get best shooting position.
Boom boom.
Correct?
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I think the special order should be replaced with the Ld test to fire at full firepower.
So, turn 1: put the ship within 20cm of any capital ship on the board with whatever facing you want. It's spectral now.
Enemy player turn 1: can't shoot at the daemon ship because it's spectral. -1 Ld aura in effect from spectral so this could hinder the enemy fleet.
Chaos player turn 2: 2+ to become solid if the chaos player wants to. If not, can move as normal but nothing else (to continue the -1Ld aura if they want to and to keep safe while spectral). If solid, it's at half firepower. take a Ld test when it becomes solid, pass=full FP. No special orders (or else a lock on would be a bit overpowered)
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As you write it:
The d-vessels becomes solid but cannot move in that turn but it can shoot in that turn at full or half power depending on Ld test?
So an IN vessel cannot escape a Chaos vessel with long range lances unless it goes on AAF.
edit: I find no move but do shoot kinda clunky in terms of game mechanics.
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Sorry, I meant that it can always move. When it's spectral, it cannot use special orders. The turn it wants to turn solid, it cannot use special orders, may become solid on a 2+, and can roll a Ld test to fire at full firepower instead of half. It can always move, but can't shoot when spectral.
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Seriously confused now. 8)
Andrew's comment:
So no scatter, cant move on the turn it appears but can move in subsequent turns? Thats fine by me.
Your (afterimageDan) reply :
Yeah I think that's the best
Could you please write your intent step by step. I know I am being iffy but it is kinda important. :)
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Sorry, I would like to see it be able to move but not fire when spectral. I guess I didn't read Andrew's comment clearly enough.
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Hey guys, we're getting confused a bit :D
I say, without problems, since no one thinks to be hindered by a scatter:
1)Any Chaos End phase- placement within 20 + 4d6 scatter (can only haunt for -1 Ld)
OR
1a)Any Begin of a Movement Phase - placement within 20 + 4d6 scatter + move a susual (can only haunt for -1 Ld) + cannot be shoot at
2)Next Chaos movement Phase- may move and can become solid at the end of the Movement phase.
Have a Ld check: fail half firepower / success full firepower (no special orders this turn)
3)Any Chaos End Phase: can return to warp, repeat from step 1
Right?
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Hey guys, we're getting confused a bit :D
I say, without problems, since no one thinks to be hindered by a scatter:
1)Any Chaos End phase- placement within 20 + 4d6 scatter (can only haunt for -1 Ld)
OR
1a)Any Begin of a Movement Phase - placement within 20 + 4d6 scatter + move a susual (can only haunt for -1 Ld) + cannot be shoot at
2)Next Chaos movement Phase- may move and can become solid at the end of the Movement phase.
Have a Ld check: fail half firepower / success full firepower (no special orders this turn)
3)Any Chaos Movement Phase: can return to warp, repeat from step 1
Right?
Dropping back to the Warp is done in the Movement Phase so that the Daemon can't do anything else this round, except repairing critical damage in the end phase and going spectral in the End Phase again.
Scatter die argument:
You're forgetting something serious, guys. The Daemon arrives as spectral in the End Phase. At that point it can't move anywhere at all to correct a bad scatter roll.
The benefit from spectral movement is to stay one more round spectral to correct an unfavorable position.
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The way I was thinking was like this.
1. End of Chaos players movement phase: Roll a d6, on a score of 1 the ship does not make the transition from the warp and remains in reserve. On a 2+ the ship may be deployed anywhere within 20cm of any capitol ship, facing in a direction of the Chaos players choosing. As it is placed at the End of the movement phase It may not take any special orders or move in any way.
2. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The ship may move as normal (we can add that it may not take special orders if needed). At the End of any subsequent Chaos players movement phase a spectral Daemonship may finalize the transition and become solid. Upon appearing a leadership test must be attempted, if the ship fails the leadership test all weapons firepowers and strengths will be halved until the next turn, if the ship passes its weapons will all be at full strength. From this point forward the Daemonship functions exactly as any other ship.
3. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The Daemonship may during any subsequent Chaos players movement phases disengage. There is no test for this, it is simply removed from play and placed back into reserve.
4. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The process starts over, refer to step 1.
Ok so after thinking on this a bit there should be some penalty for disengaging to keep people from popping out, slugging it out till they suffer a couple hits, then disengaging gaining hits back and starting the process over.
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That was the procedure I had in mind as well. Good.
As for the last bit:
the influence of the warp gets stronger, the 2nd time the dice roll to appear gets more difficult.
Options:
* the roll is highered with the number of hits that have been repaired. Thus if you repaired 2 hits the roll would become 4+ instead of 2+.
* or just flat chart:
1st time 2+
2nd time 4+
3rd time 6+
stays 6+...
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1. End of Chaos players movement phase: Roll a d6, on a score of 1 the ship does not make the transition from the warp and remains in reserve. On a 2+ the ship may be deployed anywhere within 20cm of any capitol ship, facing in a direction of the Chaos players choosing. As it is placed at the End of the movement phase It may not take any special orders or move in any way. Shouldn't we have a scatter then? If I cannot move it's a relevant disruption
2. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The ship may move as normal (we can add that it may not take special orders if needed). At the End of any subsequent Chaos players movement phase a spectral Daemonship may finalize the transition and become solid. Upon appearing a leadership test must be attempted, if the ship fails the leadership test all weapons firepowers and strengths will be halved until the next turn, if the ship passes its weapons will all be at full strength. From this point forward the Daemonship functions exactly as any other ship.
3. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The Daemonship may during any subsequent Chaos players movement phases disengage. There is no test for this, it is simply removed from play and placed back into reserve.
4. Subsequent Chaos players movement phases: The process starts over, refer to step 1.
Perfect. I was getting confused!! :)
About the popping in and out of the warp, i disagree with horizon, too harsh a penalty. We could just alter the repair chart to 1-3 nothing; 4-6 1 HP (as previously proposed, even if that makes me cry :'( ) . This way, the benefits of popping in and out, should be "limited" to just a fast repositioning, most of the time. Wich is actually good. Besides, by popping in and out you actually lose one shooting phase per disengagement. That is not a thing to be sneezed at. Basically you choose (if you really want to warp in and out like a prairie dog) to act half of your turns to gain a good positioning each shooting phase, apart from disturbing the enemy. I think that's exactly what we will gladly pay points for.
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Oops, I definitely was forgetting the end phase stuff.
Anyways, Andrew, I think you nailed it down. I'm in.
Horizon, I see where you are going with that. One think that's weird though is that it could build up too many hit points to return at all if you repair 5+ hits. That's pretty extreme, but possible.
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You loose two shooting phases when you phase out and back in. One the turn you leave and a second the turn you come back spectral.
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So what have we got here...
- AndrewChristlieb proposed to set the "become solid"-thing to the movement phase as well as the "summoning". Okay, so that keeps the Daemons from blinking in and out to often. Actually that may be the best way. Any other approach either turns the mechanic to crap or makes the Daemon too strong.
- If we agree on the above we should settle with the Repair Table Armada gave us. Loosing two phases is hard enough that there's no need for an additional penalty here.
- I realize that the scatter die seems to be a bit "old style". But no movement on the arriving turn makes my head ache.
If the "summoning" and "getting real" are happening at the end of the movement phase the Daemon won't move for 2 turns. Meaning you would actually have to place it ahead or in the middle of an enemy fleet to keep in close range. And that will only work with some fleets.
Any fleet that relies on speed can just push on and leave the Daemon behind who then has to decide either to stay spectral and close up or become real and stay behind.
Without movement on the arriving turn you cannot reliably daemonbomb Eldar, Dark Eldar, Space Marines or Necrons, because they won't be there anymore if they choose so.
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Hi Brethren,
per Andrew the daemonship can move in both turns.
Turn 1: It appears where it wants at the end of the movement phase, so no moving, no problem as it is where you want.
Turn 2: It may move as a spectral being, at the end of the movement phase it becomes solid.
Turn 3: move, shoot per normal
Ya see. Your point 3 is no issue then.
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I agree Horizon. And Brethren, your point at the end about fast and maneuverable fleets; this problem will encourage longer ranged daemon ships. I see this as a double win here because it works the way I think it should cinematic-wise (daemon ship takes a bit to warp in and the enemy can oh S&%t and flee or plan an attack) and longer ranged chaos ships become more of an option.
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Spectral Daemonships may move then attempt to solidify. This eliminates the enemies ability to shut down a Daemon by parking an escort on it and still keeps the Daemon from forcing any sneaky boarding actions.
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So where are we on their ability to use re-rolls? Personally I dont think they should be able to. From a fluff perspective I dont really see a Daemon as the sort to sit back and let some silly mortal boss him around and its already been tossed around that they shouldnt be able to at least for the leadership test when solidifying.
What other concerns do we still have to address?
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I think no rerolls. That makes sense fluff-wise. However, part of me things that daemon ships would have better Ld than regular Chaos ships because they are without the squabble of rebels and traitors. I wonder if a +1 Ld is in order. Just throwing that out there.
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No re-rolls indeed.
As for leadership: they are daemons, they do not care for the mortal realm nor their ship. So I see no reason for extra leadership. IMO that is.
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Ya I dont know about a leadership boost, they seem to run the gambit from quite cunning to compleatly uncontrolled raging lunitics driven mad by their imprisionment...
I think just removing the ability to use fleet commander rerolls should be fine and it will help offset some of the cost so theyre not too over priced.
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Good call on the price issue. And, your explanation of how daemons roll is quite compelling. :D
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it's getting real! :)
So... (I copy/paste this from andrew)
USING DAEMON SHIPS IN
BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC
The basic profile of a ship, which is upgraded to
a Daemon ship remains unchanged. It does not
matter what broadside weapons you replace
with Daemon ship components the ship’s
profile is not changed.
The points cost to upgrade a capital ship to a
Daemon ship is as follows:
Battleship . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
Grand cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
Heavy cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
Cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +TBD points
A Daemon ship may not be commanded by a
Warmaster or a Chaos Lord even if it is the
largest ship in the fleet. This is an exception to
the normal rule. A Daemon ship may not have a
Chaos Space Marine crew. You can
upgrade to Daemon ships only the 25% (pointwise) of your fleet.
Daemonships cannot be used in
squadrons.
Daemon ships cannot carry Exterminatus
weapons and do not score any points for
landing troops in a planetary assault (the
Daemons are bound within the hull of their
vessel, whilst able to board enemy ships
normally in the context of a BFG game they
would become unstable if holding a planetary
objective for any length of time).
Any Daemon ship may have a single Mark of
Chaos with the same effects and cost in points
as described in the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook.
Daemon ship Leadership is rolled as normal (ie,
1=6, 2,3=7, 4,5=8, 6=9).
WARP TRANSLATION
A Daemonship must be kept off table at the start
of a game. The rest of the fleet is deployed as
stated in the rules for the mission being played.
The Daemonship(s) are actually lurking in the
Warp waiting to either be summoned by one of
the on-table Chaos ships or drawn to the ripe
souls aboard an enemy ship. At the end of a Movement
phase of any Chaos turn, including the first, they
may enter play from the Warp as follows:
Select a friendly or enemy Capital ship, only a
Capital ship contains enough supplicants or
victims to draw a Daemonship from the Warp.
On a roll of 2+ position the Daemonship within 20cm of the
chosen vessel facing in any direction desired by
the Chaos player controlling it. otherwise it must stay in reserve for this turn.
The arriving Daemonship is unaffected by
celestial phenomena and does not trigger attack
by ordnance markers in contact.
SPECTRAL DAEMONSHIPS
The Daemonship has now pierced the fabric of
real space and has started to manifest itself. It is
not entirely present in real space, however,
although it is real enough for enemy vessels to
track its location and react to its presence. It is
in effect a spectre. Any enemy vessel attempting
a special order when within 15cm of it is at -1
Leadership. Apart from this, it has no effect, can do nothing to
affect enemy ships (marks effects included) and cannot be harmed in
return. It cannot launch ordnance, trigger
mines, be affected by celestial phenomena,
nothing, at all – OK!
At the end of any subsequent Chaos Movement
phase it may complete the translation to real
space. It does not have to and may remain a
spectral, haunting presence as long as the Chaos
player wishes. When the decision is made to translate
to real space make a leadership test. Reguardless of
the result it becomes solid, but if the leadership test
is failed the Daemonship will halve all weapons
firepower and strengths until the end of the turn.
This final translation cannot be made if the Daemonship
is in contact with an enemy vessel. No actions can be
undertaken in the movement phase during which final
translation occurs except standard movement and turns
(no sneaky special orders or suchlike). From this point
on the Daemonship is solid and fights like a normal ship.
If a Daemon ship fully materializes in contact with
celestial phenomena, it suffers any effects of those
celestial phenomena, such as gas clouds, asteroid
fields, etc. before the start of its movement phase.
However, if it materializes in an asteroid field, it may
then attempt to avoid damage by making a leadership
check normally.
HAUNTING
A Daemonship may disengage at the end of any
Chaos Movement phase without having to make
any dice roll. It simply drops back into the Warp
leaving no trace.
A disengaged Daemonship may re-enter play on
any Chaos turn following the one in which it
disengages. This is done following the
translation rules detailed above.
If it was damaged when it disengaged it may be
repaired when it returns, roll a d6,
1,2 or 3 No change.
4 or 5 +1 hull point.
6 +2 hull points.
Add +1 to the roll if it is a battleship.
Add +1 for each full turn the Daemonship spent
in the Warp.
A returning Daemonship cannot come back with
more hits than it could normally have. A
Daemonship will only count as disengaged if it is
currently disengaged at the end of the game for
Victory points purposes, unless of course it is
destroyed or crippled, then the normal rules apply.
A Daemonship which is crippled will always count
as crippled for Victory points purposes, reguardless
of how many hit points it has remaining at the end
of the game.
When a Daemonship is "haunting‟ or is spectral it
can still suffer damage from fire critical hits. In
addition to repairing damage, they may repair
critical hits while in the warp rolling normally,
repairing critical damage on a 4+ as opposed to a 6.
Daemonships do not automatically regain hits after
each battle. They have to be regained either in a game
by warp translation or by expending repair points, or
they can be withdrawn normally
___________
Is it all ok?
We can begin to think about prices ?
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Add +1 for each full turn the Daemonship spent
in the Warp.
Hopefully the red and the strike through does not mean that we are getting rid of this!
I think 10% of the price of the ship, round up to the nearest 5pts would be appropriate. There are some downsides to being a daemon ship but more benefits. No use of rerolls and no squadroning means that it has no real way of mitigating its leadership if it gets a low score. Losing turns because of being in the warp and only being partially there when spectral is a downside. Obviously, the upsides make up for it and more so this shouldn't be a free upgrade. So, we are looking at a point cost here.
Knowing that there should be a point cost and that the level of power that this grants scales (considering a battleship dropped in is much more of a threat than a cruiser), the point values should be scaling by size, and I would argue by point value. So we are looking at percentages.
To keep it near the old ranges or prices, I think the 10% of the ships original points, round up, is appropriate.
You can upgrade to Daemon ships only the 25% (pointwise) of your fleet.
Would this be after you add the points for the daemonship upgrade or before? I think this is confusing compared to 1/1000. Either way, I'm up for using the 25% restriction, but I think we need to be really clear about it.
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Well, i undestood we abandoned it. I'm modifying the post :)
I'm happier tough, if we keep it!
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I think it may have been dropped because of the easier regen roll old BFGR had.
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Really, we did drop the extra repair.
I don't like it.
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What do you have against it? I don't see a reason to remove it from the original.
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Nothing particularily strong about this rule - every turn you spend spectral to gain +1 to the roll is a turn when your 200+ pts ship does effectively nothing - your choice. Also, it grants some predictability for chaos player when he really wants to regenerate his ship.
It should stay.
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I just find it a clunky extra to an already rule extensive vessel.
But, I will concede.
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I think that the real bonus from staying in the warp comes from the 4+ critical repair. Who cares about an hull point more when i have such a boost.
@afterimagedan: as for me, I would too apply 1/1000 pts limitation. But I understood we dropped it in favour of the 25% thing. A proper wording is needed. My english being clunky, I'll leave this rule wording to you guys.
About points: (everithing rounded up to the nearest 5 pts)
A) 10% ship cost + something extra per class ship?
(like 10% + 10 cruiser / 15 grand cruiser or HC / 25 BB)
OR
B) a straight 15%
Let's have some cases:
A)
Desolator 55 pts (30 + 25)
Repulsive (shield upgrade) 40 pts (24,5 +15)
Carnage 30 pts (18 +10)
Slaughter 25 pts (16,5 + 10)
B)
Desolator 45 pts
Repulsive (shield upgrade) 36,75--> 35
Carnage 27-->25
Slaughter 24,75-->25
Method B) is better, IMO
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wouldn't fixed costs for cruisers, heavy cruisers, grand cruisers and battleships be way simplier to use?
Counting percentages for each individual ship sounds needlessly complicated and ultimately would lead to very similar costs among every class.
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wouldn't fixed costs for cruisers, heavy cruisers, grand cruisers and battleships be way simplier to use?
Counting percentages for each individual ship sounds needlessly complicated and ultimately would lead to very similar costs among every class.
It is true what you say. But it is to be said that giving % upgrades could help in a more fair pricing between ships of the same class
How it could be?
BB +40
Grand Criser +30
Heavy Cruiser +25
Cruiser +20
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something around that. I'd place the price closer to 15% -
45 [or even 50] for BB
35 [or 40] for Grand Cruisers,
30 for heavy cruisers,
25 for cruisers.
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Buying a daemon ship upgrade is primarily a way to drop a ship where you want it. Being able to relocate different ships with different power levels should scale pretty well cost-wise. I think set costs would be alright but the percentage cost would be a bit more accurate approach. Yes, it's a bit more difficult to calculate, but I think more accurate and balanced. I could get behind a 15% upgrade.
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We're talking about 5 points difference max, between set and 15% if i count correctly. Not particularily game breaking value.
But if majority wants 15%, I won't complain.
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Compare the Despoiler to the Desolator. 15pt difference. Yes, there probably won't be tons of games where you can bring in a Desoiler, but it is possible. i think the small differences are important enough to not polish over.
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They all have a pretty big range really even the cruisers. Of course the problem with doing 15% is in that some ships are just more naturally suited to this like the Slaughter and its much cheaper, 190pts compared to 220pts for a Despoiler?
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They all have a pretty big range really even the cruisers. Of course the problem with doing 15% is in that some ships are just more naturally suited to this like the Slaughter and its much cheaper, 190pts compared to 220pts for a Despoiler?
Well, putting the Devastation (the ship I assume you meant) close to the enemy is also hugely powerful. You do make a good point though, and the Slaughter is really the ship that puts the wrench in the works.
Another reason the 15% works is how carried the prices on the grand cruiser and battlecruisers are. Styx and hades would have a 10pt difference by percentage. Same with the Retaliator and Executor. Anyways, I could go either way and not be too bothered by it, despite my preference.
If we go with set prices, I would do this and be happy with it:
Battleships 50
Grand Cruisers 35
Heavy Cruisers 30
Cruisers 25
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Ya Devistation... Im not sure where I went wrong there ::).
Any of the carriers will be nasty as Daemons with the MoK and Bezerker Tide.
Turn 1, deploy spectral. Turn 2, move within 15cm hit them with any weapons in arc then launch ordy +d3 and finish off with a teleport hit and run. Turn 4, forced to reload move in and board. If somethings not dead after that it should be hurting.
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You also bring up another gold point: marks can highly increase the effectiveness of a daemon ship upgrade. This again pushed me back toward the percentage camp.
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However, a carrier as a daemonship is a risk due its expense and possible loss of effectiveness. Roll a 1, no vessel, fail Ld, less Attack Craft.
On a sidenote.... who commands the attack craft on a daemonship carrier? Small familiars? Small Daemons? Pink Horrors & Bloodletters.
Kinda weird.
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@horizon
Attack craft are daemons! Flying storming frigging daemons!!! Kill it with fire! ;D
@afterimagedan
your points costs are somewhat steep. May I suggest to unite cruiser & Heavy Cruisers in a single category for +20 pts and put Grand Cruisers to +30? BB could stay +50.
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Considering how much of a boost to daemon ships are getting by not being shot at before acting, I think those point costs are warranted. 25pts to drop a slaughter into enemy lines with no ramifications is totally worth it. The 2+ is a possible downside, but a not so common one. Not getting to fire for the first turn or two is crappy, but its still totally protected too. It will be able to pop in right at an enemy weak spot. I'm still willing to be persuaded, but I don't see 25, 30, 35, 50 being all that steep
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Ya I think those prices are a good point to start playtesting.
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sorry, in fact, when I posted my comment, I was still thinking about the 1/1000 limitation. Being the 25% limit used those prices are just good. My tought was that in most games you would be just using 1 Dship, so it should also be quite "cheap". I should point out that, with current limit system, in a 1500 pts game you can pop 2 Demon Slaughter behind enemy lines...that makes me whorry...anyhow, i'll try to have a couple of games to test this iteration.
Cheers
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2 daemonships is 2 less normal ships to deal with. ;)
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@horizon: well, at 1500 pts i would be rather unsettled by two cheap Slaughter popping behind my back stabbing the hell out of my fleet... :D but it was just to say.
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Seeing as Slaughter, costing only 165 pts, is noted as a problem, what about fixed price but based on the cost of more expensive vessels? +30 for cruisers maybe?
No differance over 15% for most of the more expensive vessels and makes problematic slaughter a bit more costly.
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But makes any other Cruiser choice really painful. 200 pts for a Murder? no, thanks.
Altough i'm not complaining about the limitation we've set, the 1/1000 would have handled this problem better. If you field a cheap ship at 1500, you cannot squeeze another in, cause you can have only 1 for FULL 1000 pts.
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But makes any other Cruiser choice really painful. 200 pts for a Murder? no, thanks.
I second that. I'd rather use +30pts to turn a Murder into a Hades.
Everyone knows Slaughters are nasty... but they still are with or without a Daemon on board.
I don't get what's wrong with the point tables we already have. Okay, BFG:R (+40 / +30 / +20 / +20) may be too cheap, but the Armada (+50 / +30 / +25 / +20) still sounds reasonable.
P.S.: Sorry for that confusion with the movement part. Mea culpa. I'm happy as long as the Daemon can move. So... I'm happy right now. :)
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I've just one thing with the armada prices: the scaling points between Grand Cruisers, HC and Cruisers.
In my opinion, heavy cruisers already pay dearly for the slightly better weapons in their stat line. Otherwise, they die as fast as any other ship. For me they, should be priced within the Cruiser cathegory.
So:
BB +50
Gran Cruiser +30
Cruiser/Heavy Cruiser +20
This, IMO, should even give the Slaughter some competitors. From cheap and furious to costly and nasty in the same cathergory is something that we can exploit greatly.
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The thing about Slaughters is how vulnerable they are on approach. By removing this your giving them a large advantage plus they outgun all the other Chaos ships at the ranges were talking about.
The only real cruiser picks imo are Slaughter (good all arounder with unbeatable power), Carnage (nearly equal power to the Slaughter and the thing of nightmares for space elves), and the Devastation (Lunar eq firepower and a full bomber strike *with MoK and berserker you get an even more... devastating... bomber wave and a solid follow up boarding opportunity. The Murder doesn't factor for me regardless of cost.
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Limit them isn't a bad idea.
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Limit them isn't a bad idea.
About the limit we could say, instead of the 1 every 1000 or the 25% limit, that dships does are not counted for heavy/gran cruisers and battleships requisite. Meaning that if you take 2 cruisers and a demon cruiser, you still cannot field a battleship. Otherwise we van just say that every ship class can be "demonized" just once. So you can have as many d ships you want as long they are of different class. What do you say?
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Well if you want to be really harsh you can just limit them to reserves rules. Of course at 25% you couldnt get two Slaughters anyway, 190 for a Slaughter and only 375 points to work with. Thats why I thought the 25% would work so well as your really only going to be able to get one ship at the more common levels and its scaled so you cant take three light cruisers and something like a Daemon Relictor in a ~1k or so. I was assuming at least 25pts for a cruiser tho. Actually 30 for cruisers/heavys 40 for grands and 50 for bbs might work alright.
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Actually 30 for cruisers/heavys 40 for grands and 50 for bbs might work alright.
I don't think so.
We changed the Daemon's rules from bad to good, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't know if your Daemon will work out good ahead of the battle.
Ship caps aside, for +40 I'd rather upgrade a grand to a battleship. +30 on a heavy is also almost a battleship in some cases. And +30 on a cruiser will get you a heavy instead.
If these point cost reflect the rules of a Daemon I'd rather change the rules to justify a lower cost.
Setting availiability to "Reserves" would prevent Daemon abuse, but will almost certainly kill Daemon grands and battleships. Still, it's a compromise I could live with.
As with ship classes... I don't understand the fuzz about the Slaughter. Daemonbomb isn't the only way to use those ships. A Daemon is a lone cruiser somewhere in space... and in my experience a lone cruiser too close to the enemy fleet is a wreck easily made. Two Daemon Slaughters may be even worth turning our fleet around for one turn to get them.
I'd pick range over firepower on this case. I even considered a Murder (with lance option) because it has almost full firepower at 45cm. Not many fleets have the ability to catch it that far behind.
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I think the ability to place the ship anywhere its needed far out weighes the cost on these, even with any peneltys.
Reserves would only really affect Battleships, and really the reserve rules should be looked at eventually anyway because they are far too restrictive on the top and bottom ends. Grand cruisers fall under cruiser for reserves just like heavys and battles.
No Daemon bombing isnt the only use but its the most obvious abuse. You can also ghost again which really can be more powerful, drop a ship on the enemy carriers and follow them until the fleets meet then come solid. This means your ships are never alone and you have denied the enemy possible fighter cover and/or re-rolls giving you a significant advantage. The use in scenariors cannot be understated either. Escallating engagement, convoy, bait, surprise attack, and blockade run all have various nefarious uses for these ships that will significantly tip the balance and those are just the core scenarios.
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Reserves might be a solution here, especially if we plan to look at reserve rules themselves [cruisers are perfectly fine, but when was the last time anyone has seen reseve battleship? Maybe a separate thread for reworking reserves?]
If not, i quite like 1/1000. I'm just not a fan of 25% because when you have to calculate 15% of the ship, than if it fits within 25% of the fleet... too much counting, makes things a bit complicated.
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Two 1000 pts Vassal games had (against two steamroller IN), for a quick test of the DShip.
I've always fielded the Daemon Slaughter, with the +25 pts.
It kicked ass.
First time he basically ignored the ship, to keep aiming torpedo at short range and ramming my poor Murders (Ouch! ramming hurts!!!).
My buddy had some serious bad dice rolling with torps, but in any case the Demonship left alone crippled a Lunar, hulked another and exploded 3 escorts in two turns...in the middle of his formation shooting left and right like rambo.
Second time he tried to get out the range of the Slaughter's guns, doing so splitting his fleet in two. I closed his right half with Murder + Hades and the Dship on the back . The left half gave me some pain with torpedoes and ramming, but i managed to snatch a victory nontheless. DShip crippled but not disengaged because I needed all the cannons on the board for the closing actions.
About the limit: too messy the 25% thing. It is basically the same as 1/1000. Only complicated by useless math.
Point cost: for me, cruiser+25 is fine.
Can't tell about the other ships.
Cheers
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1 per 1000pts for me.
Costings:
(heavy) cruiser 25
grand cruiser 30
battleship...hmm.... 50 (after playtesting I could see this dropped to 40~)
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@horizon
in the next week I might manage to playtest a Vassal game big enough to field a BB.
Do you have any suggestions about the BB i should try out? I was thinking a classic Despoiler.
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Aye,
I think that is a good choice to test, and if you have time the Desolator (with Khorne) as well (otherwise I see no use for a support ship to be at close range, or 9 torps from close range :) ).
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Aye,
I think that is a good choice to test, and if you have time the Desolator (with Khorne) as well (otherwise I see no use for a support ship to be at close range, or 9 torps from close range :) ).
Perfect. The second game, if I manage to play it, that is, will have the Khorne Desolator.
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Oy, that hurts just thinking about it :).
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Anyone want to attempt writing up the final rules of what we have so far?
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USING DAEMON SHIPS IN
BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC
The basic profile of a ship, which is upgraded to
a Daemon ship remains unchanged. It does not
matter what broadside weapons you replace
with Daemon ship components the ship’s
profile is not changed.
The points cost to upgrade a capital ship to a
Daemon ship is as follows:
Battleship . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +50 points
Grand cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +35 points
Heavy cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +25 points
Cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +25 points
A Daemon ship may not be commanded by a
Warmaster or a Chaos Lord even if it is the
largest ship in the fleet. This is an exception to
the normal rule. A Daemon ship may not have a
Chaos Space Marine crew. You can
upgrade to Daemon ships only 1 ship per full 1000 pts of fleet.
Daemonships cannot be used in
squadrons.
Daemon ships cannot carry Exterminatus
weapons and do not score any points for
landing troops in a planetary assault (the
Daemons are bound within the hull of their
vessel, whilst able to board enemy ships
normally in the context of a BFG game they
would become unstable if holding a planetary
objective for any length of time).
Any Daemon ship may have a single Mark of
Chaos with the same effects and cost in points
as described in the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook.
Daemon ship Leadership is rolled as normal (ie,
1=6, 2,3=7, 4,5=8, 6=9).
WARP TRANSLATION
A Daemonship must be kept off table at the start
of a game. The rest of the fleet is deployed as
stated in the rules for the mission being played.
The Daemonship(s) are actually lurking in the
Warp waiting to either be summoned by one of
the on-table Chaos ships or drawn to the ripe
souls aboard an enemy ship. At the end of a Movement
phase of any Chaos turn, including the first, they
may enter play from the Warp as follows:
Select a friendly or enemy Capital ship, only a
Capital ship contains enough supplicants or
victims to draw a Daemonship from the Warp.
On a roll of 2+ position the Daemonship within 20cm of the
chosen vessel facing in any direction desired by
the Chaos player controlling it. otherwise it must stay in reserve for this turn.
The arriving Daemonship is unaffected by
celestial phenomena and does not trigger attack
by ordnance markers in contact.
SPECTRAL DAEMONSHIPS
The Daemonship has now pierced the fabric of
real space and has started to manifest itself. It is
not entirely present in real space, however,
although it is real enough for enemy vessels to
track its location and react to its presence. It is
in effect a spectre. Any enemy vessel attempting
a special order when within 15cm of it is at -1
Leadership. Apart from this, it has no effect, can do nothing to
affect enemy ships (marks effects included) and cannot be harmed in
return. It cannot launch ordnance, trigger
mines, be affected by celestial phenomena,
nothing, at all – OK!
At the end of any subsequent Chaos Movement
phase it may complete the translation to real
space. It does not have to and may remain a
spectral, haunting presence as long as the Chaos
player wishes. When the decision is made to translate
to real space make a leadership test. Reguardless of
the result it becomes solid, but if the leadership test
is failed the Daemonship will halve all weapons
firepower and strengths until the end of the turn.
This final translation cannot be made if the Daemonship
is in contact with an enemy vessel. No actions can be
undertaken in the movement phase during which final
translation occurs except standard movement and turns
(no sneaky special orders or suchlike). From this point
on the Daemonship is solid and fights like a normal ship.
If a Daemon ship fully materializes in contact with
celestial phenomena, it suffers any effects of those
celestial phenomena, such as gas clouds, asteroid
fields, etc. before the start of its movement phase.
However, if it materializes in an asteroid field, it may
then attempt to avoid damage by making a leadership
check normally.
HAUNTING
A Daemonship may disengage at the end of any
Chaos Movement phase without having to make
any dice roll. It simply drops back into the Warp
leaving no trace.
A disengaged Daemonship may re-enter play on
any Chaos turn following the one in which it
disengages. This is done following the
translation rules detailed above.
If it was damaged when it disengaged it may be
repaired when it returns, roll a d6,
1,2 or 3 No change.
4 or 5 +1 hull point.
6 +2 hull points.
Add +1 to the roll if it is a battleship.
Add +1 for each full turn the Daemonship spent
in the Warp.
A returning Daemonship cannot come back with
more hits than it could normally have. A
Daemonship will only count as disengaged if it is
currently disengaged at the end of the game for
Victory points purposes, unless of course it is
destroyed or crippled, then the normal rules apply.
A Daemonship which is crippled will always count
as crippled for Victory points purposes, reguardless
of how many hit points it has remaining at the end
of the game.
When a Daemonship is "haunting‟ or is spectral it
can still suffer damage from fire critical hits. In
addition to repairing damage, they may repair
critical hits while in the warp rolling normally,
repairing critical damage on a 4+ as opposed to a 6.
Daemonships do not automatically regain hits after
each battle. They have to be regained either in a game
by warp translation or by expending repair points, or
they can be withdrawn normally
HERE WE GO!
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8)
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Can the ship move around if it remains spectral ? And I think it would be best to indicate that the +1 to the heal while in the warp roll should be +1 for each enemy turn it spends in the warp. This is way less confusing.
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Yeah, if spectral it can keep moving. It isn't stated, should be added.
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That's the only thing that annoyed me about Daemonships, is that they can't move while being ghostly. It's not like they're attacking either!
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Agreed, Seahawk. I think with those two clarifications, I am content with it.
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For each full turn, not player turn, the ship adds +1 to the roll.
Any enemy vessel attempting a special order when within
15cm of it is at -1 Leadership. The Specrtal Daemonship
may make normal turns and move as standard. Apart
from this it has no effect. It can do nothing to affect
enemy ships, Marks of Chaos have no effect, and may not
take any special orders. In return a Spectral Daemonship
may not be harmed or affected in anyway. To be clear it
cannot launch ordnance, trigger mines, be affected by
celestial phenomena, nothing!
When a Daemonship is "haunting‟ or is spectral it
can still suffer damage from fire critical hits. In
addition to repairing damage, they may repair
critical hits while in the warp rolling normally,
repairing critical damage on a 4+ as opposed to a 6.
I think it should be added that they can still take special orders while in the warp (reload ordinance or BFI). While spectral I think the fire criticals should be suspended and they should not be able to repair.
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"Spectral or Haunting Daemon Ships may not repair or take damage from fire criticals. Fire criticals resume their normal function once Daemon ships materialize and then can be repaired normally."
As far as how long the turn is, we could say "full turn" in the document, and since the daemon ship can go onto haunting at the end of a chaos movement phase and returns at the end of chaos movement phase, saying full turn will be clear enough.
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USING DAEMON SHIPS IN
BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC
The basic profile of a ship, which is upgraded to
a Daemon ship remains unchanged. It does not
matter what broadside weapons you replace
with Daemon ship components the ship’s
profile is not changed.
The points cost to upgrade a capital ship to a
Daemon ship is as follows:
Battleship . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +50 points
Grand cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +35 points
Heavy cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +25 points
Cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +25 points
A Daemon ship may not be commanded by a
Warmaster or a Chaos Lord even if it is the
largest ship in the fleet. This is an exception to
the normal rule. A Daemon ship may not have a
Chaos Space Marine crew. You can
upgrade to Daemon ships only 1 ship per full 1000 pts of fleet.
Daemonships cannot be used in
squadrons.
Daemon ships cannot carry Exterminatus
weapons and do not score any points for
landing troops in a planetary assault (the
Daemons are bound within the hull of their
vessel, whilst able to board enemy ships
normally in the context of a BFG game they
would become unstable if holding a planetary
objective for any length of time).
Any Daemon ship may have a single Mark of
Chaos with the same effects and cost in points
as described in the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook.
Daemon ship Leadership is rolled as normal (ie,
1=6, 2,3=7, 4,5=8, 6=9).
WARP TRANSLATION
A Daemonship must be kept off table at the start
of a game. The rest of the fleet is deployed as
stated in the rules for the mission being played.
The Daemonship(s) are actually lurking in the
Warp waiting to either be summoned by one of
the on-table Chaos ships or drawn to the ripe
souls aboard an enemy ship. At the end of a Movement
phase of any Chaos turn, including the first, they
may enter play from the Warp as follows:
Select a friendly or enemy Capital ship, only a
Capital ship contains enough supplicants or
victims to draw a Daemonship from the Warp.
On a roll of 2+ position the Daemonship within 20cm of the
chosen vessel facing in any direction desired by
the Chaos player controlling it. otherwise it must stay in reserve for this turn.
The arriving Daemonship is unaffected by
celestial phenomena and does not trigger attack
by ordnance markers in contact. It is now considered Spectral. ***
SPECTRAL DAEMONSHIPS
The Daemonship has now pierced the fabric of
real space and has started to manifest itself. It is
not entirely present in real space, however,
although it is real enough for enemy vessels to
track its location and react to its presence. It is
in effect a spectre. Any enemy vessel attempting
a special order when within 15cm of it is at -1
Leadership. Apart from this, it can do nothing to
affect enemy ships (marks effects included) and cannot be harmed in
return. It cannot launch ordnance, trigger
mines, be affected by celestial phenomena, nothing but normal movement and turning. ***
At the end of any subsequent Chaos Movement
phase it may complete the translation to real
space. It does not have to and may remain a
spectral, haunting presence as long as the Chaos
player wishes. When the decision is made to translate
to real space make a leadership test. Regardless of
the result, it becomes solid, but if the leadership test
is failed, the Daemonship will halve all weapons
firepower until the end of the turn.
This final translation cannot be made if the Daemonship
is in contact with an enemy vessel. No actions can be
undertaken in the movement phase during which final
translation occurs except standard movement and turns
(no sneaky special orders or suchlike). From this point
on the Daemonship is solid and fights like a normal ship.
If a Daemon ship fully materializes in contact with
celestial phenomena, it suffers any effects of those
celestial phenomena, such as gas clouds, asteroid
fields, etc. before the start of its movement phase.
However, if it materializes in an asteroid field, it may
then attempt to avoid damage by making a leadership
check normally.
HAUNTING
A Daemonship may disengage at the end of any
Chaos Movement phase without having to make
any dice roll. It simply drops back into the Warp
leaving no trace. While in the warp, the Daemonship may use special orders as normal.
A disengaged Daemonship may re-enter play on
any Chaos turn following the one in which it
disengages. This is done following the
translation rules detailed above.
If it was damaged when it disengaged it may be
repaired when it returns, roll a d6,
1,2 or 3 No change.
4 or 5 +1 hull point.
6 +2 hull points.
Add +1 to the roll if it is a battleship.
Add +1 for each full game turn the Daemonship spent
in the Warp. ***
A returning Daemonship cannot come back with
more hits than its starting hits. A
Daemonship will only count as disengaged if it is
currently disengaged at the end of the game for
Victory points purposes, unless of course it is
destroyed or crippled, then the normal rules apply.
A Daemonship which is crippled at any point during the game will always count
as crippled for Victory points purposes, regardless
of how many hit points it has remaining at the end
of the game.
When a Daemonship is haunting‟or is spectral, it
can still suffer damage from fire critical hits. In
addition to repairing damage, they may repair
critical hits while in the warp rolling normally,
repairing critical damage on a 4+ as opposed to a 6.
Daemonships do not automatically regain hits after
each battle. They may only be regained in a game when returning from haunting. ***
What about this? I integrated Andrew's comments and took Horizon's advice. I put stars near sentences I modified.
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Thumbs up. I really like what has happened here. :)
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Agreed! Anyone else?
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:) Yay