Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: afterimagedan on February 19, 2013, 05:52:20 PM
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Relictor:
-300pts
-Dorsal weapon batteries change to strength 8.
Desecrator:
-365pts
-new stats: Port/Starboard Lances range 45cm str 4, Dorsal weapon batteries range 60cm str 8, Pwor torpedoes imperial and boarding str 9, Port/Starboard launch bays 2 squadrons each. (these stats are the current stats in the Chaos Fleets document at the time this was posted).
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8 dorsal lances, ew. Equivalent to a blackstone for less than half the cost, it should not be!
Also, the SM fortress monastery is spelled wrong in the PDF.
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8 dorsal lances, ew. Equivalent to a blackstone for less than half the cost, it should not be!
Also, the SM fortress monastery is spelled wrong in the PDF.
OUCH, I mean weapon batteries. FIXED! Thanks for the heads up on the FM. I will change that.
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Fixed.
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What's the speed of both? Turrets?
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Theyre both 25cm, 4 turrets.
Relictor: setup exactly as per the Conqueror - CSM and Khorne.
Battleship/12 Speed/25cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Weapons/12 30cm
Port/Star Lances/3 30cm
Dorsal Weapons/8 45cm
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm
300 points seems reasonable for this.
Desecrator:
Battleship/12 Speed/25cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Port/Star Lances/4 45cm
Dorsal Weapons/8 60cm
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm
This just feels wrong at 365, its a fast attack carrier with enough long range power to match a heavy cruiser and with battleship durablilty.
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Theyre both 25cm, 4 turrets.
wow nevermind I need more wine. Re-reading.
Hehe, saw the earlier post. I was thinking "Man, he really needs more wine."
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What's the speed of both? Turrets?
Sorry about that! The states are in the BFG:R document HERE. (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1596994/BFGR%202/BFGR%20Chaos%20Fleets.pdf)
They should be how they will be if this vote passes. The points will need tweaking, depending.
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I very much dislike str 8 dorsal WBs. I think it should be 9, never 8. I also will never approve of the "combi-deck" design. So as far as I'm concerned the Relictor/Conqueror shouldn't exist, at least as they are. Reducing the lance strength to 2 (modelled with 2 WB hardpoints and 1 lance hardpoint) would be fine, or increasing it to 4 and reducing the WB str to 6 or 8 would also be fine (2 lance, 1 WB hardpoint).
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So like this?
Relictor:
Battleship/12 Speed/25cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Weapons/12 30cm
Port/Star Lances/2 30cm
Dorsal Weapons/9 45cm
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm
I could get behind this at 300 too
Desecrator:
Battleship/12 Speed/25cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Port/Star Lances/4 45cm
Dorsal Weapons/9 60cm
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm
Im still not sure whats a good price for this, it seems like it should be high tho, higher than 365 anyway.
If those were the set stats the what would the Conq and WoS look like? Would they remain as they are (3 lance on the Conq and 3 launch on the WoS) or would they be modded to follow the base ships?
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Desecrator:
Battleship/12 Speed/25cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Port/Star Lances/4 45cm
Dorsal Weapons/9 60cm
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm
Im still not sure whats a good price for this, it seems like it should be high tho, higher than 365 anyway.
Even if 365 doesn't get it right, it shouldn't get any more expensive than 375pts.
By then the Despoiler class would be a much more attractive ship in comparison. In both variants (8 launch bays / 6 launch bays + 9 torpedoes) the Despoiler has only a slightly lower firepower, while having longer weapon ranges and more launch bays.
The only situation where the Desecrator could really show an increased firepower would be when you can lock-on both broadsides on enemys. When using only port or starboard you compare 4 Lances (45cm) + 9 WB (60cm) with 3 Lances (60cm) + 10 WB (60cm).
So the Desecrator should end up where the Despoiler would be without some of its launch bays. And since bays are expensive... we end up pretty much where we started. Somewhere between 365 and 375.
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Changed vote to no, voted last night after a late shift and clicked the wrong one:S
The topside batteries at 8 when most others have 9 just doesn't fit, and the Relictor's weapon fit just seems a lot for 300.
The Desecrator seems ok to me tho. I see it as the Chaos counterpart of the Oberon and the costs of both are similar. adding in the extra speed and ordnance and I'm fine with 365.
Not a fan of the Smotherman, what would peoples opinion be on the Desecrators cost if not 365?
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The 25cm speed is iffy for what they bring.
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Why don't we just make them the exact same stats of the character ship they are based off of without all the goodies that come with them?
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How many battleships does Chaos have now?
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How many battleships does Chaos have now?
These are basically 2 battleships that are non-character versions of the character ships. So, they are sort of different ships, but sort of the same sort of thing.
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If these two are accepted that would bring the total Chaos battleships to 4, not counting the PK or any of the CSM barges.
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Desecrator: 365 pts
Battleship/12 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Port/Star Lances/4 45cm
Dorsal Weapons/9 60cm
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm
I think this, with the 20cm speed would be acceptable at 365. The Wage of Sin with these same stats and adding the Mark and CSM at 410.
Relictor: 300 pts
Battleship/12 Speed/25cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Weapons/12 30cm
Port/Star Lances/2 30cm
Dorsal Weapons/9 60cm
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm
Two lances/ side for 300. Conqueror with the same stats and Bezerker Horde (reprinted below) for 360.
As part of its cost, it embarks Chaos Space Marines with the Mark of Khorne, following all rules for Chaos Space Marines in this document It also embarks a retinue of Khorne Bezerkers, giving it a boarding modifier of +2 in addition to its improved boarding value. It is embarked with Chosen Terminators and may roll 2D6 and pick the highest D6 when conducting a teleport Hit and Run attack each turn.
How do these sound?
Once were done with these ships should we standardize the other CSM barges also? The Scion and Est are hot messes and dont match their profile pictures, and the VS isnt much better.
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I agree with those profiles but reluctantly, so long as the conqueror and the relictor get the massive an improved thrusters qualities. If those are included, I would vote yes most definitely. This profile for the desecrator gives it more distinction between it and the despoiler, weapons wise. I like it.
Also, yes, I agree about the other character ships.
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Improved thrusters is the +1d6 AAF right? Given the role they were designed for and the age of the vessels I could see them having something like that. If everyone else is ok with that then Id say go for it. Massive is the "cannot take CTNH" right? Dont all battleships have that anyway?
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Yes and yes. The Relictor has the +d6 AAF in the current bfgr profile. Massive is a given for battleship status. I'll put up the vote tomorrow.
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Oh, it sure is. Just one more reason to do away with those "qualities" unless you have a cheat sheet or its a really common one theyre very confusing.
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The term qualities like massive still make me shudder.
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I agree... on terms with the Desecrator, the Wage of Sin, the Relictor, the Conqueror, the Improved Thrusters and that 'qualities' thing. ;)
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So like this?
Relictor:
Battleship/12 Speed/25cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Weapons/12 30cm
Port/Star Lances/2 30cm
Dorsal Weapons/9 45cm
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm
I could get behind this at 300 too
Desecrator:
Battleship/12 Speed/25cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Port/Star Lances/4 45cm
Dorsal Weapons/9 60cm
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm
Im still not sure whats a good price for this, it seems like it should be high tho, higher than 365 anyway.
If those were the set stats the what would the Conq and WoS look like? Would they remain as they are (3 lance on the Conq and 3 launch on the WoS) or would they be modded to follow the base ships?
Yeah, I think these are both reasonable, though I'd whack 5 more points on the Desecrator (Desolator + 4 AC (25 x 4) - 15cm range on lances (15 x 2) = +~70 pts). The Conq and WoS should be based on these classes. My objections to those 2 character ships are the same as I had for the above, ie, the str 8 dorsal guns and the "combi-deck".
In fact, I wouldn't even include the character ships as a separate entry, but rather have them simply as named ships that have X upgrades for Y points.
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That last part is actually a good idea. Or keep the character ships to a special pdf with only character ships?
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Both of those would be good ideas. Although having them as an upgrade is the tidiest option, because each one has some unique rules it would probably be best just to include them in a separate pdf...otherwise we risk having sidebars bigger than the original ships entry! ;D
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Both of those would be good ideas. Although having them as an upgrade is the tidiest option, because each one has some unique rules it would probably be best just to include them in a separate pdf...otherwise we risk having sidebars bigger than the original ships entry! ;D
Voice of caution here. Keep an eye on the big picture and don't get lost in the details. ;)
While the upgrade idea works fine with the Conqueror, the Wages of Sin and maybe even the Scion of Prospero (simplified as a Despoiler), it definately won't work with the Terminus Est, since that ship's armament doesn't even come close to any regular battleship.
So... the Scion could get and the Terminus has to get a seperate entry in [enter pdf name here]. I'd say give the other two a entry of their own, too.
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@Brethren Don't worry we agree here! I think the separate pdf might be a good idea.
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What's the point of having it as a separate document? People will just keep the pages of the character ship with the Chaos PDF anyways. Might as well just have it in the same document, even if we want to separate it out from the basic ships.
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Hmmm...fair point, danny ol' boy! Consider me sold.
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At this point, they are in a separate part of the document than the other battleships. Why not just keep them there? Overall, I worry that we are going the "do something syndrome" route with BFG:R. We unanimously (those who voted) passes the point values for the Desecrator, Wages of Sin, Conqueror, and Relictor with stat changes. A similar thing happened to the 2 hit escorts. People passed them then wanted to move it to a second document, presumably because they are either rethinking it or just won't stick to their guns. What up with that?!
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Hey,
this stems from the following:
there was discussion / vote on wages of sin & friends. Now we talk about the parent vessels (the vanilla ones) and a new idea arrives. Can happen. That is called progress.
People still passed those votes but just want it in another place, eg to keep BFG:R to its intent and otherwise keeping 'weird' stuff separately.
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Maybe. Well, if anyone would like to propose a vote to change what we have now, someone put together stuff in an AndrewChristlieb fassion (sort of bullet point style), we can discuss, then vote.
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I think everyone if happy with the ships as they sit, the named barges should still have their own seperate entry tho and i would place them before the rest of the document just after the PK.
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Does sound like the best place to put them.
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I think everyone if happy with the ships as they sit, the named barges should still have their own seperate entry tho and i would place them before the rest of the document just after the PK.
I will make that change right now. Alright, let's call this closed for now and move on to Bakka, Admech, and Daemon ships.
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If you throw up a thread for the Est, Scion, and Vs we can try to finish off the standard Chaos ships. Is there anything that we are missing other than these, daemons, and the finalised fleet lists?