Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: afterimagedan on February 27, 2013, 10:16:09 PM
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Changes? Remember, they all currently have CSM in them.
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Wohoo! Talking time... ;D
One question first. I'm looking at the beta pdf afterimagedan put together on his site. Is this the Despoiler class (http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/3180/vpyhpnzh_jpg.htm) we're taking in? I really hope so, because the bigger part of my thoughts is based on it.
Vengeful Spirit: Drop it.
Despoiler class and Chaos Battle Barge are almost the same ship. And since the previous works on BFG:RPlaxor "repaired" the Despoiler, the Vengeful Spirit won't be needed anymore. If there's need we could add similar upgrades to the Despoiler entry. But there's only one option left that would be missing... changing the dorsal lances to "str 4 / 45cm (+10pts)".
- Scion of Prospero: Simplify. Base it on the Despoiler class.
- Change dorsal lance batteries to "str 4 / 45cm (+10pts)", similar to the upgrade mentioned above.
- Exchange 1 prow launch bay with "str 6 torpedo (+10pts)". Point value is just a suggestion.
- Add Tzeentch stuff at appropriate cost.
This way the Scion of Prospero would sail on the same course as the Conqueror and the Wages of Sin with one or two minor quirks. True, the total launch bays would be reduced to 7 (instead of 9), but it's firepower would increase and basically I don't think the launch bays are the main reason to sent the Scion into battle.
- Terminus Est: Welcome to Hell / the Warp. This ship will require a bit of work on our side.
- The Terminus is the predecessor of the Despoiler class and said to be much more powerful. In a way it is, but strangely the short ranged weaponry and is low price (430pts) don't match that. However, I wouldn't want to sit in front of the loud end of 8 L/F/R lances! Lock-on anyone? :P
- As with many others the model shown doesn't match the armament, but I'm slowly getting used to that. Still I base my thinking on the ship entry, not the model.
- As for the ship entry... there's way to much weaponry mounted on the prow. 3 launch bays and 4 lances? I think we need to shove those bays around a bit. Maybe get it to port/starboard (4/4) using two of three of the battleships slots.
Accordingly the 3rd slot would be it's Hives of Nurgle (aka weapon batteries). But "Str 6 / 30cm" seems like a bit of a joke.
Dorsal and prow armament would remain at 4 L/F/R lances each.
- The Miasma of Pestilence rule... Honestly, who came up with that crap? The turrets of the Terminus Est don't work against torpedoes. And that's everything this rule does. Quite a flaw. You'll often need its AC as CAP. Maybe the main reason why the ship comes at a low price.
- The Terminus' Hives of Nurgle grant the enemy no right-shift on the gunnery table for being within 15cm. I figure this is a bit of an advantage, since the ship is bound to get close due to its low weapon ranges.
So what do we have? Or better, where do we start? I can think of two ways.
Either we stay close to the original entry, move the armament around and that's it.
Or we design something that really would stand above a ordinary Despoiler class as indicated in the background and something closer the the Planet Killer point-wise. (Mainly by adding range to the weapon systems)
So... that's it for now. Points and further details when we basically agree on how the ships should turn out. Have fun. :)
Brethren
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VS: What about the 4 prow lances it currently has over the Despoiler?
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VS: What about the 4 prow lances it currently has over the Despoiler?
When you look at the Despoiler class in BBB you'll see that it has the same armament as the Vengeful Spirit. (with 2 launch bays moved from sides to the prow)
Since the Despoiler class was rewritten due to it's strange weapon stats, I assumed that the Chaos Battle Barge would get the same treatment. But we can lay out a 5th battleship class if you want. :P
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To be honest: doesn't matter. People who build character vessels will convert anyway. Let them do the prow as well. :)
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The Despoiler was based off the earlier designs employed for the battlebarges of the original Legions. I think that this would be the best base for the remaining Barges.
Issue: Theres two verions of the Despoiler in the documents. I will be working off the first version for this.
The Vengeful Spirit: Pts 410 (currently)
Battleship/12 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Weapons/6 60cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/3 60cm
Prow Lance/4 30cm
Prow Launch/4 Attack craft
There are currently no special rules for this ship.
Terminus Est: Pts: 430 (currently)
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/6 30cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm
Prow Lance/4 30cm
Prow Launch/4 Attack craft
Mark of Nurgle. Terminus Est cannot be boarded.
The extra hit and point cost are already included in
its profile and point cost and does not have to be
paid for separately by the ship‟s commander
Miasma of Pestilence. The Terminus Est is
surrounded by vast swarming clouds of the same
Warp-spawned flies which buzz and howl through
its interior and first transformed Typhus into the
Host of the Destroyer Hive. This miasma
permeates outwards from the ship through blisters,
boils and fractures in its surface or through
corroded discharge tubes and weapon barrels. It
replaces the ship‟s turrets and works in exactly the
same way as turrets against attack craft but has no
effect against torpedoes.
Wow this is a crap rule, but we already knew that ;). I think this should be seperated from the standard turrets and maybe work like a blast marker (roll a 6+ for each wave/individual marker and on a 6 remove them)
Hives of Nurgle. Along either side of the
Terminus Est, row upon row of pustules, hives,
and sores fester upon the ship‟s cankered hull.
These growths cover the rusted remains of what
was once the ship‟s main broadside batteries like
coral over rock, periodically erupting violently and
hurling a mixture of corroded debris, ammunition
and filth out into space. The Hives of Nurgle
function in exactly the same way as weapons
batteries. The Nurgle player may also place a
single Blast marker anywhere along the Terminus
Est’s course after each move to represent the
constant seeping from these hives. It also obscures
and distorts the shape of the Terminus Est,
meaning that vessels within 15cm do not benefit
from a left column shift when firing at it.
Not bad but the battery strength should be boosted as theyre quite weak.
More to come, time to play uno with the kids :P.
Scion of Prospero: Pts: 450 (currently)
Battleship/12 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Weapons/9 45cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm
Prow Lance/4 30cm
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm
Prow Launch/2 Attack craft
Mark of Tzeentch
Vortex of Chaos. Favored horrors of Tzeentch
writhe and cavort amidst the very bulkheads and
girders, and a swirling vortex of Chaos surrounds
this vessel. At the end of each movement phase,
any ship within 15cm of this vessel (friend or foe!)
must place a blast marker in base contact with it.
Ok.
Vagaries of Fate. The Changer of Ways provides
for command of the Fates, affording its auguries
snatched glimpses of the future. The ship is gifted
with an additional +1 re-roll added to that from the
Mark of Tzeentch, but the daemons bound to the
hull are easily enraged by a commander‟s inability
to use this foresight and inflict 1Hp damage if this
ship‟s or its Lord‟s re-rolls fails for any reason
Ok, should not increase the price of the ship tho.
The only real problem I see with these is how top heavy the prows are, not that thats so much of a problem really but I know some people wont care for it.
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Ok, I say drop Vengeful Spirit.
Terminus Est, drop Miasma and up the firepower of the Hives, call it a day?
Scion. Vortex is pointless. Vagaries of fate can still be the RR the Scion can use including the punishment thing considering MoT is now a different thing. Andrew, you basically want to make this have the same launch bay setup as the Despoiler?
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I'm all for dropping the miasma, but what about this for an idea:
Miasma: The Terminus Est's turrets only hit on a 5+ normally (6+ against eldar as per usual) but it's turrets may be used against both AC AND torpedoes in the same turn? Flies are not bothered by tracking priorities after all, if anybody here that own's a garbage would know. ;D
The batteries are rather weak, but to be honest the est packs a metric boatload of short range lances. Not many ships can pour 8 lances and 9 AC into a single target. So it having weak batteries is not much of an issue in my book.
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Gentlemen, hold your horses!
I want to have one thing clarified before we continue: Which version of the Despoiler class do we use? BBB or Revised 1.0?
The armament of the DespoilerBBB feels wierd. Weak weapon batteries and a big hole in the prow that's supposed to have 4 lances. The DespoilerBFG:R takes care of that by moving launch bays to the front and strengthening the port/starboard batteries.
My point: If we use the BFG:R-version we won't need the Vengeful Spirit. If we stay with the BBB-Despoiler class, I'd like to see an entry for a Chaos Battle Barge. It's got a lot of weapon options that make it more worthwhile than the old Despoiler.
Are these your suggestions for the ships or did you want write down the original stats? In case of the latter you got something wrong there. Original stats in purple.
Sorry, but sometimes I want to be extra clear before I confuse something and write a crappy answer. :-[
The Vengeful Spirit: Pts 410 (currently)
Battleship/12 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Weapons/6 60cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft <- Launch/3
Dorsal Lances/3 60cm
Prow Lance/4 30cm
Prow Launch/4 Attack craft <- Launch/2
There are currently no special rules for this ship.
Options:
- weapon batteries: "45cm/8" or "30cm/10" (no cost)
- exchange prow lances: "torpedoes/8" (+10pts)
- dorsal lances: "45cm/4" (+10pts)
Not that it would matter. Overall launch bays are still at 8. Really nice options, though.
Terminus Est: Pts: 430 (currently)
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/6 30cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft <- Launch/3
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm
Prow Lance/4 30cm <- L/F/R
Prow Launch/4 Attack craft <- Launch/3
Same here. But the original Terminus has a total of launch bays of 9 and it's prow lances are L/F/R.
The Hives of Nurgle can be kept as it is. Like AndrewChristlieb I think the weapon strength needs a boost.
Considering the Miasma of Pestilence I really like Andrew's approach.
Scion of Prospero: Pts: 450 (currently)
Battleship/12 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Weapons/9 45cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft <- Launch/3
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm
Prow Lance/4 30cm <- no prow lances
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm <- Torpedoes/6
Prow Launch/2 Attack craft <- Launch/3
Again, it's total of launch bays is 9, torpedoes at 6 and no prow lances.
Sorry for kind of stalling the progress here, but hopefully I know what basis we're working on afterwards.
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What I posted was the profiles with the "standardized" weapons layout of the BFG-R Despoiler, of course I forgot to take into account that the BFG-R Despoiler went up to 10 on the 60cm weapons. BTW when did we decide to add the lances back on the prow? That seems to be the only really unbalancing thing about the ship as it sits and I know the original BFG-R had the Despoiler at 390 without the prow lances.
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Whew, what a relieve. I know what I'm talking about again. ;D
BTW when did we decide to add the lances back on the prow?
There was no decision. We only talked about giving the Despoiler an option eventually merging the Vengeful Spirit and Despoiler class into one entry.
Something like:
Despoiler class / Chaos Battle Barge: Pts 400
Battleship/12 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Weapons/10 60cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/3 60cm
Prow Launch/4 Attack craft
Options:
- may exchange 2 prow launch bays for "torpedoes/8" (no cost) or "lances/4 30cm F" at (+10pts)
- may set dorsal lances to "45cm/4" at (+10pts)
That's basically the BFG:R-Despoiler with added lance options of the Battle Barge.
Such an entry would also give us an excellent basis for the Scion of Prospero.
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The BBB entry lists 6 weapons / 4 launch per side and 4 lances prow. 400pts
The original BFG-R entry lists 10 weapons / 2launch per side and 4 launch prow. 390 points
The entry on the current BFG-R lists 10 weapons/ 2 launch per side and 4 lances/ 4 launch on the prow. 400 points
Of course these all have the same hull stats and 3 dorsal lances.
So where did the last one come in?
The Despoiler could work as the basis for the Barge, how does everyone else feel about that?
I think if we bring the 4 30cm F lance option back it should be "you may exchange 2 prow launch bays for 4 lances, F 30cm, or a strength 9 torpedo salvo.
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Oops, I messed that up. I thought that the Despoiler needed those lances and I had forgot to put them there so I did. I also misread the original voted Despoiler stats. I will fix that now.
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Regarding the Terminus Est, the reason it has 9 launch bays is because 9 is the number of Nurgle. However, there is some disparity between the model and the stats still. I would say that rather than messing with its stats, simply model it with only 1 WB hardpoint each side (for which str 6 is fine) and 2 launch bay hardpoints each side (which puts it on a par with a Styx).
As for the top heavy prow, well I would rather see the prow lances come down to str 3 to reduce this bloat somewhat. This would mean it would have slightly over the odds in prow armament but slightly under the odds in broadside armament, so it would all even out. Well, as neatly as possible while keeping somewhat inline with its original intent.
An interesting side note is that if this is done this will give it a 9L equivalent focus fire to one side. Very Nurgle. Swapping the 6WB for 2L would make this actually 9L, rather than just equivalent, which I'm just throwing out there.
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The Est would be good with 4 launch hard points but im not sure what comes in the upgrade kit, does it have 4 launch hard points?
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The Est would be good with 4 launch hard points but im not sure what comes in the upgrade kit, does it have 4 launch hard points?
As if spare parts would be the big problem here. ;D
Ok. Rather than discussing single stats, rules and costs, I create another entry and you can point out what fits / doesn't fit / is a no-go.
Changes in red. Estimated point values in purple.
Terminus Est: Pts: 455 = (420ship + 35special rules)
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/6 60cm
Port/Star Launch/3 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lance/3 45cm L/F/R
Prow Launch/3 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above) (+15 pts)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.) (+15 pts)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm) (+5 pts)
I've thought about the "Miasma hits all incoming things on 5+", but that would contradict the rules of eldar ordnance.
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If you have a terminus est, you almost definitely have a fleet to use with it if you care about using it in a game. As such, you have more launch bays.
Why not just model it with 2 launch bays and one hive/battery. Call it 3 on each side (like the styx) and 3 on the prow. I don't really think the problem is with the launch bays, necessarily, but in the batteries, lances, and special rules.
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Why not just model it with 2 launch bays and one hive/battery. Call it 3 on each side (like the styx) and 3 on the prow.
Yeah, that's what I was saying.
I don't really think the problem is with the launch bays, necessarily, but in the batteries, lances, and special rules.
Indeed. I'm certainly in favour of dropping the stupid "can't shoot at torps" rule. Pointless rule is pointless. The batteries can also have their range extended. I would like to reduce the range on the prow lances though as well as decrease the strength to 3, in part due to the bloat on the prow, but also because I like the stepped ranges (60cm broadside, 45cm dorsal, 30cm prow). I wouldn't mind switching the broadside hives from representing WBs to representing lances (str 2@60cmL+R) to make up a little for the loss of range and also give it a very Nurglesque feel (9AC, 9L focus fire).
So my version of the TE would be like so (changes marked in red):
Terminus Est: Pts: 445 = (420ship + 25special rules)
Battleship/13 Speed/25cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/2* 60cm
Port/Star Launch/3 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lance/3 30cm L/F/R
Prow Launch/3 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above) (+10 pts)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.) (+5 pts)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm) (+10 pts)
*Counts as lances.
Speed increase is in part to mitigate range loss on prow weapons and also because it's a pre-Despoiler design ... sh!t was just better back then.
Of course, the Hives could just remain WBs and the prow lances could remain at 45cm and the speed could remain at 20cm, this is just my take on it.
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Dang, 25cm speed, need to think about that for such a vessel.
So, 2 lances @ 60 + 4 @45 = 6 @ 45 @ 25cm speed, is ... whoa- ish.
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Dang, 25cm speed, need to think about that for such a vessel.
So, 2 lances @ 60 + 4 @45 = 6 @ 45 @ 25cm speed, is ... whoa- ish.
Well, as it currently stands it gets nothing at 60cm and is pretty sluggish (20cm speed, 5+ prow armour) but then at 45cm it gets 8 lances and then another 6WB at 30cm. So the official version actually has more firepower at 45cm and under (0-30cm = -1L & +6WB; 30-45cm = +2L, 45-60cm = -2L). So the changes I suggested are actually a slight downgrade. The speed increase is there to make up for this, give it a point of difference over the later (less advanced) Despoilers which were based on it and also give it a chance to get into a position to use even its close ranged guns. Besides, 9 lances at a target is just cool. And 9 is Poppy Nurgle's magic number after all.
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I think the Hives would be best if they remained as weapons batteries for consistency with the official document.
How about
9 P/S Hives (weapons batteries, 45cm)
3 P/S launch
3 Prow launch
3 Prow lances (30cm)
3 Dorsal lances (60cm)
That gives a fair amount of firepower in the same stepped format and theres 9's all over it.
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Heck yes. 9 it up. Love it, andrew.
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Yeah, I thought of that too Andrew, but I don't see getting either 3AC or 9WB out of a single hardpoint. If it had 2 of each hardpoint (like the Vengeance series CGs) then I could see it.
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Ya the hardpoint issue had occured to me but I figured its a character ship so give it a little character ;). Seriously tho with that load out your looking at 1.5 45cm weapons and 1.5 launch, now with that and 3 lefts make a right which corrects a wrong in mind I think a bit of fudging may be in order :-X.
Of course the other option would be to retain the 30cm range at which point 9wb would be just fine imo but you lose your 45cm bump so you might as well drop the dorsal to 3x45cm (4x just doesnt feel right for the dorsals) and boost the speed to 25cm.
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I'm willing to make the fudge. Common, they are Hives of Nurgle dude. ::)
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That would still leave only 7 lances. Perhaps change them to 9WB dorsal and prow.
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So Dorsal 9@60cm, Prow 9@45cm, and Port/Star 9@30cm?
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That would look cool imo.
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I'm really against taking the lances out of the Terminus. From the start the vessel is a massive carrier with a brutal lance array. It's batteries were just an afterthought. If you read the Horus Heresy novels it's mentioned time after time again that it has a massive underslung and dorsal lance array, unmatched by any other battleship. And now ere leaning at taking the lances away? May as well just rename it the Herminus Best and call it a day :o :(. It's not like having lances is so against the theme of the Chaos fleet, and even if it was it's a unique vessel. No one is going to spam it. ;) ;D
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Herminest Best is a cooler name, we should go with that. ;)
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"Herminus Best" = official Terminus Est weapon battery variant of BFG:R. Consider that my chaos battleship's new name. ;D
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@afterimagedan & AndrewChristlieb I can't help but feel like the gist of my post was lost somewhere along the line... ::) :)
The battery version is fine and functional, but it is both really distant from the original and really loses the flavour of what makes the terminus est special. The batteries are literally the second least important issue with it, right after it's lack of torpedo defense thing. It's batteries are weak yes, but it is a massive carrier/lance boat. It doesn't have to be great at everything, although cutting the dorsal down to 3 and increasing the side battery by a bit is probably a good compromise (or is it the prow that's a 4 strength? Either way, reduce the bigger one).
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I'm not hoping to brush over your statement, Talos, I was just commenting on the awesome new BB name. You bring up a vital point of fluff that should help direct our efforts. As much info as you can from the fluff would be good, especially if you can find quotations.
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@afterimagedan I was just joking around as well....I hope you enjoy what is sure to be Typhus's spiritual successor, Typhoid the Second, Host of the Destroyer Jive and Captain of the Herminus Best.
I will go find my copy of Flight of the Eisenstein and edit this post with the quotations when I find them. If I can find the Typhus short story again I will quote from there too. If anybody can remember what it's called remind me...
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Of course the other option would be to retain the 30cm range at which point 9wb would be just fine imo but you lose your 45cm bump so you might as well drop the dorsal to 3x45cm (4x just doesnt feel right for the dorsals) and boost the speed to 25cm.
"Dorsal Lances/4 45cm" is nothing exceptional. In FAQ2010 the Chaos Battle Barge (aka Vengeful Spirit) had that option for +10pts.
The only unusual thing with "Prow Lances/4 30cm" here is that it's L/F/R.
I think noone will really object if we split the middle ship slot into a launch bay and some weapon batteries (9 in total).
But even if we sum up that rather strange armament... the ship's not getting very powerful (read: "expensive"). To add a load of points we'd have to push the weapon ranges further.
Sadly, I don't think we can yank a 9th lance out of it, without going beyond the usual battleship design... but maybe that's exactly what we need to do.
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Hmmm....reading through Flight of the Eisenstein and the Lexicanum/BBB, and a few things have come up that are not quote worthy but still worth mentioning:
-The Terminus Est is a unique non STC design
-It was impossible to replicate because its energy systems were too advanced (Apocalypse, anyone?)
-Still looking for the best possible page to quote, but there is several references to it having a larger lance array than any ship ever constructed by the imperium, which along with it's launch bays made it the ultimate planetary invasion vessel: it was capable of both massive precision lance strikes and had incomparable launch bay capacity.
But I also found a reference to half of its lance arrays being slow and ponderous, with largely fixed arcs which made it difficult to track smaller (read: the Eisenstein) vessels rapidly.
The Terminus needs to keep a strong lance presence, for uniqueness and fluff purposes. What if the prow mount was made fixed, as in forward facing only? Along with the slightly stronger batteries it now has reduced broadside power but a strong forward firepower, which certainly qualifies as special given its parent fleet (chaos). Along with a slight point jump for its now functioning turrets it should work just fine like that, and if necessary making both the prow and dorsal lances str 3 would not hurt too much, especially if prow cluttering is an issue. Although to be fair, there are several pictures of planetary assault vessels facing their prow towards the target planet, so it seems reasonable to assume the Terminus Est has a fairly radical prow design not fully expressed by the model itself.
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Ok... which of you guys started the "adding up to 9"-thingy? I just remembered something:
9 is the sacred number of Tzeentch, and therefore unfitting for one of Nurgle's toys beyond imagination! :P
The sacred number of Nurgle is 7.
So... based on that and on what Talos wrote another approach that doesn't break the hull of a battleship.
Terminus Est: Pts: 455 = (395ship + 60special)
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/7 60cm
Port/Star Launch/3 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3 45cm L/F/R
Prow Launch/1 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above) (+10 pts)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.) (+10 pts)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm) (+5 pts)
- Death Guard CSM (+25 pts)
- Death Guard Terminators (+10 pts)
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Lol, figures. Well then i think 2 p/s launch (standard for one hard point) 14 p/s weps @45cm (7 is really awkward and this is really just like the Repulsive) 3 Dorsal lance @60cm L/F/R, 4 prow lance @30cm F, and 3 launch prow may be in order. Or lances both@ 45cm and numbers swapped but prow should remain fixed.
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As you command... ;)
Terminus Est: Pts: 480 = (420ship + 60special)
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/14 60cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3 45cm L/F/R
Prow Launch/3 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above) (+10 pts)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.) (+10 pts)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm) (+5 pts)
- Death Guard CSM (+25 pts)
- Death Guard Terminators (+10 pts)
P.S.: I'm still running these through Mogwai's calculator, since there's hardly a ship we can compare it to.
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Ok... which of you guys started the "adding up to 9"-thingy? I just remembered something:
9 is the sacred number of Tzeentch, and therefore unfitting for one of Nurgle's toys beyond imagination! :P
The sacred number of Nurgle is 7.
So... based on that and on what Talos wrote another approach that doesn't break the hull of a battleship.
Terminus Est: Pts: 455 = (395ship + 60special)
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/7 60cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3 30cm F
Prow Launch/3 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above) (+10 pts)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.) (+5 pts)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm) (+10 pts)
- Death Guard CSM (+25 pts)
- Death Guard Terminators (+10 pts)
Really? I didn't check, but I thought that the reason the HA made it 3/3/3 was to do with Nurgle's magic number. At least, I thought that's what they said. At 7 I like that profile except I would drop the p/s launchbays to 2 each (use 1 launchbay hardpoint) and increase the prow to 3. There's still some prow bloat then, but it's meant to be a unique, non-STC ship, so it seems fine. Oh, and lock the prow lances forward.
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Terminus Est: Pts: 480 = (420ship + 60special)
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/14 60cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3 45cm L/F/R
Prow Launch/3 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above) (+10 pts)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.) (+10 pts)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm) (+5 pts)
- Death Guard CSM (+25 pts)
- Death Guard Terminators (+10 pts)
I think this profile is the answer.
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I would lock the front lances to be forward only.
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@Sigoroth I used to be in the same boat as you for the lances...but geez, we have this thing priced at 480pts! That's...pretty hefty. This thing is almost the same price as a tomb ship at this point, and I have often suspected that necrons would see more play if their capitals were priced a bit more aggressively. Thematically, it should have locked front lances. But at 480pts, this thing is pretty expensive. The thing is about the same price as three lunars or carnages, which is to say the damn thing costs 1/3 of your fleet, more if you include (guaranteed at any point level it sees play) a HQ of any type. I say let's let it be really damn powerful. It's cost will make anyone think twice before including it. ;) 8)
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Thats way too expensive... :) this will limit its useful range to the 2k+ range due to the cost,similar to the PK.
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I've seen the Planet Killer with great effect in a 1500pts game.
I, myself, am know to have fielded a Void Dragon with all aboard (thus also ~500pts) in a 1500pts game with great effect.
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@Sigoroth I used to be in the same boat as you for the lances...but geez, we have this thing priced at 480pts! That's...pretty hefty. This thing is almost the same price as a tomb ship at this point, and I have often suspected that necrons would see more play if their capitals were priced a bit more aggressively. Thematically, it should have locked front lances. But at 480pts, this thing is pretty expensive. The thing is about the same price as three lunars or carnages, which is to say the damn thing costs 1/3 of your fleet, more if you include (guaranteed at any point level it sees play) a HQ of any type. I say let's let it be really damn powerful. It's cost will make anyone think twice before including it. ;) 8)
Fix lances forward, drop cost, problem solved.
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Sig, could you write up a profile and point cost that would like that way?
Anyways, with the new Despoiler, I think we can drop the VS. Any thoughts about the Scion? I had a feeling this thread would turn into a Terminus Est discussion really quickly. :D LET'S GET THIS DONE.
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Anyways, with the new Despoiler, I think we can drop the VS. Any thoughts about the Scion? I had a feeling this thread would turn into a Terminus Est discussion really quickly. :D LET'S GET THIS DONE.
Thought about the Scion of Prospero:
- take the new Despoiler / Battle Barge with "Dorsal Lances/4 45cm" and "Prow Torpedoes/9"
- add the Tzeentch stuff
That was the reason why I wanted to know which Despoiler class we're running. (I'm quite happy with the result of that.)
The Vengeful Spirit can be dropped then.
We can fix the Terminus' prow lances to forward and drop like 15 or 20 pts.
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@Sigoroth Agreed. ;D
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Terminus Est: Pts: 465 = (405ship + 60special)
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/14 60cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3 45cm F
Prow Launch/3 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above) (+10 pts)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.) (+10 pts)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm) (+5 pts)
- Death Guard CSM (+25 pts)
- Death Guard Terminators (+10 pts)
Scion of Prospero (Despoiler class): Pts: 450 = (410ship + 40special)
Battleship/12 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star WBat/10 60cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Torpedoes/9 30cm F
Prow Launch/2 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Tzeentch (+15 pts)
- Vortex of Chaos (0 pts)
- Vagaries of Fate (0 pts)
- Thousand Sons CSM (+ 25 pts)
Um, did I get the prices for the Marks right? I can't recall the consenus on that. :-[
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Terminus Est: Pts: 465 = (405ship + 60special) points 370+60=430pts
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/14 60cm14wb@30cm. There is no call for the range to be 60cm, actually the 30cm range is more fitting with the Death Guards tactics.
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3 45cm F
Prow Launch/3 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above) (+10 pts) should be +15 :/
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.) (+10 pts) this is worth no more than 5pts imo
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm) (+5 pts)
- Death Guard CSM (+25 pts)
- Death Guard Terminators (+10 pts)
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I agree with you on the Terminus, Andrew. What does everyone think about the Scion profile Brethren posted?
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The Hives of Nurgle is worth at least 10 pts. Maybe more. No way is this a 5 pt upgrade though.
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The Hives of Nurgle is worth at least 10 pts. Maybe more. No way is this a 5 pt upgrade though.
Eh, its a very incidental bit there. I would say step back a step and see if that possible 5pt disparity is really that pressing over all. Not that i agree with you its certainly not worth 10points imo.
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The mars gets a column shift with it's batteries and gets it no matter which ship it shoots at for 15pts. The hives are only for receiving shots to the Terminus, AND it's only for close range. There is no way it's worth more than 10pts. I would go with 10pts.
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Terminus Est: Pts:430pts
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/14 60cm14wb@30cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3 45cm F
Prow Launch/3 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm)
- Death Guard CSM
- Death Guard Terminators
Vengeful Spirit: Drop
Scion of Prospero - 450pts
I propose this:
1. drop the torpedoes (because of front-heavyness)
2. make the wbs on the side go to 60cm (more like the Despoiler) at wb9 (fitting for Tzeentch)
3. we can add the option to reduce the launch bays by 2 on the front for torpedoes (same upgrade as the despoiler).
4. Add CSM built in.
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Death Guard are known for their somewhat slow and unrelenting approach...their heavy weapon of choice? The autocannon, a very long range weapon. According to Blood Gorgons, almost all their tactical squads have one. My point? Autocannons have long range. Would it be really that bad having it with 45cm batteries, even with a price hike? It's not the end of the world, but death guard can have long range stuff too :-\ :D
All in all that profile is such an improvement its amazing. It's not worth slightly more though? Not that i'm complaining...
As for the scion, since we are going with a long range theme with it, in addition to the 60cm battery range lets drop a lance strength on the dorsal and boost that to 60cm as well. If we get rid of the torpedoes, the option has to allow you to buy Strength 9 torps (because fluff but also to make it equivalent), although I'm not sure a named vessel should have options.
Although to be perfectly frank, I think the Scion is fine with just the lance/battery range increase and the torpedo markup, even if it means a price hike. This thing is a freakin' beast with these changes: it might only have okay firepower, albeit at long range, but it can(would) be able to pump a Strength 9 torpedo volley alongside a Strength 9 AC wave. Maybe the changes above would put it at 475ish?
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There are no autocannons in BFG... :P. what i was getting at is theyre known for their boarding abilities which tends to swing ships in bfg to the shorter range: orks, space marines, nids, the Conqueror, even DE tend to have short range weapons.
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Eh, its a very incidental bit there. I would say step back a step and see if that possible 5pt disparity is really that pressing over all. Not that i agree with you its certainly not worth 10points imo.
So you don't think that immunity to short range column shift on a four shield battleship is worth at least 10 pts?
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The mars gets a column shift with it's batteries and gets it no matter which ship it shoots at for 15pts. The hives are only for receiving shots to the Terminus, AND it's only for close range. There is no way it's worth more than 10pts. I would go with 10pts.
Yeah, except the Mars is paying 15 pts to get the left shift on SIX weapon batteries. The TE is nullifying the enemy's left shift on upwards of 20 WBs. Seriously, when you're trying to pop a BB you have to spike your damage in order to get hull hits. For this you get into close range and fire into the prow or rear. Nullifying this range bonus (which could possibly be a double left-shift) is an extremely potent defensive mechanism.
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Nope dont think its worth it, nor would I ever think its a good idea to try and get that close to any ship ::).
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Getting under 15cm is battery galore. A favourable position in many occassions.
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Of course its a good position but certainly not something I would want to focus my strategy around, I think anyone whos played Orks long enough knows that those heavy weapons are more incidental than we like :P.
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Slaughters, Carnage's, murders, tyrants, dominators, dragonships, and more are great at this point. I think building your tactic around it can work.
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How much do holofields on the MMS eldar bigger ships cost?
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Trial & Error. And I cannot give point values for specific parts.
I mean, the base was the msm costings, then you (sig did most of it in the beginning) rebuild it into MMS. You benchmark things versus Swords, Lunars (& Murder), etc. then throw lot of math into the cooking pot, then you playtest.
And I can say that the point costs in v1.9b are quite good. :)
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Nope dont think its worth it, nor would I ever think its a good idea to try and get that close to any ship ::).
Wow, we must have very different game styles... Most of our games end up that close and personal.
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I guess theres a reason i like Tyrants and no one else does :/.
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I try to get into 15cm range of the enemy all the time. Not only is it good for Slaughters, Carnages, Dominators/Tyrants but also for the bigger ships, like Repulsives and Retributions. It can bite you in the bum, particularly with Eldar, if the enemy decides to go and blow up on you, but as a tactic it's well worth the risk. As for strategy, well I don't think it's necessarily true that you have to base your entire strategy around getting into 15cm range, for example I favour Carnages in my Chaos fleet as a great stand-off vessel. However, I think you have to factor into your strategy that the fight will end up in the 15cm range band and that not only should you be in a position to capitalise on this but against certain ships you should strive to bring it about. Against battleships for example, where long or even medium range sniping is rendered far less effective due to the number of shields they have. Again, Carnages serve Chaos well, being able to get close and unleash a devastating attack when there.
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Played a game recently where I played Khorne Chaos with a Relictor and all slaughters and a styx. When I finally got to the Admech ships into close range, it was disgusting how much damage a locked on close range Slaughter and Relictor can do.
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Sig, do you think this profile:
Terminus Est: Pts:430pts
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/14 60cm14wb@30cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3 45cm F
Prow Launch/3 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm)
- Death Guard CSM
- Death Guard Terminators
... take it and put it at 440pts. Would that be your recommendation?
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I can live with that profile. It certainly has its merits.
I'm kind of amused though, that (as with the original) the "more-powerful" Terminus' turns out cheaper than the "less-powerful" Despoiler class. ;D
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OK, let's hammer out the Scion then.
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Sig, do you think this profile:
Terminus Est: Pts:430pts
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/14 60cm14wb@30cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3 45cm F
Prow Launch/3 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm)
- Death Guard CSM
- Death Guard Terminators
... take it and put it at 440pts. Would that be your recommendation?
What does the highlighted line mean?
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I think the 60cm text was not taken out on accident. It should be 30cm.
How about this...
Vengeful Spirit: Drop
Scion of Prospero
I propose that we make it exactly like the current despoiler with the wb 9 instead of 10, same torpedo option, make the launch bays 9 line usual, and keep the same tzeentch stuff.
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Scion of Prospero
I propose that we make it exactly like the current despoiler with the wb 9 instead of 10, same torpedo option, make the launch bays 9 line usual, and keep the same tzeentch stuff.
That would be 3 launch bays each on Port, Starboard and Prow. That's quite a heavy prow armament. I usually vote for the simple way... but here I'd propose a Str6 torpedo salvo, if we also set 3 bays on the prow.
All in all, take a Despoiler and...
... reduce P/S batteries to 9, raise launch bays to 3
... reduce prow launch bay to 3, add torpedoes str6
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I was saying no torpedoes on it with 9 lbs but you can do the -2 and add torps like the despoiler.
Hits 12 Speed 20cm 45* turns 4 shields 5+ armor 4 Turrets
P/S 9 wbs 60cm
F/L/R dorsal lances 3 60cm
P/S LBs 3 each
Prow LB 3
Option to -2 Prow LB to add +9 Torps.
MoT, Flagship (usual), Vortex of Chaos (usual), Vagaries of Fate (usual with new wording because of MoT)
-I think this is a non prow heavy option. You will either have 3 LBs or 1 LB and 9 Torps, way less than it was before.
-We could also keep the guns on this ship at 45cm. In that case, we should just drop the torpedoes on the original SoP profile and provide the Despoiler -2LB for 9torp option.
Either way, we should reconsider the point cost of the ship for whatever profile we end up with.
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3 port launch (2 bays)
9 port weapons @60 (2 mounts)
:/ theres a problem there.
How about:
~440 for points.
3 p/s launch
9 p/s weapons@45cm
3 prow launch
9 Dorsal weapons@60cm
Yea the prow is a smige less than the Despoiler but that ships pretty prow heavy anyway so no big loss. 9@45 is still high for one hard point but not as unbelievable as the 60's. oh and theres lots of 9's to appease the gods ::).
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3 port launch (2 bays)
9 port weapons @60 (2 mounts)
:/ theres a problem there.
How about:
~440 for points.
3 p/s launch
9 p/s weapons@45cm
3 prow launch
9 Dorsal weapons@60cm
Yea the prow is a smige less than the Despoiler but that ships pretty prow heavy anyway so no big loss. 9@45 is still high for one hard point but not as unbelievable as the 60's. oh and theres lots of 9's to appease the gods ::).
Seems like all you did with the mount problem is decrease the range and call it fixed. Still seems like the same exact problem. Anyways, if the original 2010 ship can make that stretch, then I don't feel as bad making it.
I don't think the WBs change on the dorsal is really necessary. I think we should just keep it as lances.
Really, the only problem I am seeing with the 2010 profile is the heavy prow. If we just drop the torps and give it the Despoiler torpedo option, I think that solves the problem and I am starting to prefer it to any more drastic changes.
Here's another attempt, trying to be as minimal in changes as possible:
440pts
Hits 12 Speed 20cm 45* turns 4 shields 5+ armor 4 Turrets
P/S 9 wbs 45cm
F/L/R dorsal lances 4 45cm
P/S LBs 3 each
Prow LB 3
Option to -2 Prow LB to add +9 Torps.
MoT, Flagship (usual), Vortex of Chaos (usual), Vagaries of Fate (usual with new wording because of MoT)
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2 launch bays p/s/pr, 9 torps prow, 9WB@60cm broadside, 3L@60cm dorsal, no options for alternate weaponry (it's a character ship), Tzeentch stuff.
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So a Dispoiler with less p/s weapons?
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So a Dispoiler with less p/s weapons?
With an extra torp and Tzeentch stuff.
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I can go for that but it would be a shame for it not to have lb9 anymore. If any ship has it it should be this ship.
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Alright, we are right at the end of things with Chaos and of course there is a lot of Bakka stuff going on.
Vengeful Spirit: Drop
Scion:
440pts
Hits 12 Speed 20cm 45* turns 4 shields 5+ armor 4 Turrets
P/S 9 wbs 45cm
F/L/R dorsal lances 4 45cm
P/S LBs 3 each
Prow LB 3
Option to -2 Prow LB to add +9 Torps.
MoT, Flagship (usual), Vortex of Chaos (usual), Vagaries of Fate (usual with new wording because of MoT)
Terminus Est: Pts:430pts
Battleship/13 Speed/20cm Turns/45* Shields/4 Armor/5+ Turrets/4
Port/Star Hives/14 60cm14wb@30cm
Port/Star Launch/2 Attack craft
Dorsal Lances/4 45cm L/F/R
Prow Lances/3 45cm F
Prow Launch/3 Attack craft
Special Rules:
- Mark of Nurgle (+1 hit, included above)
- Miasma of Pestilence (places 1 blast marker along its movement. incoming ordnance and AC counts as flying through a blast marker before attacks are rolled. bombers still subtract the ships turret value from their number of attacks.)
- Hives of Nurgle (enemy does not get right-shift for being within 15cm)
- Death Guard CSM
- Death Guard Terminators
Anyone? All we have left is this and the Daemon ships.
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I am going to put this up as a vote if there are no objections.
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I am going to put this up as a vote if there are no objections.
None from my corner. I'm quite happy here. :)