Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: afterimagedan on March 01, 2013, 09:44:11 PM
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Gift pool rules: "Each capital ship in your fleet grants you 1d6 to roll on the gifts table. A capital ship that rolls a 6 for leadership selects a single gift from the gifts table instead of rolling for a gift. These gifts form a pool from which the player must assign one gift to every eligible capital ship in your fleet."
Old BFG:R with gift buying system (https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B1Nr32u9sF3EYWQxMjcxMmItMGU1MS00NzdlLTk1YTktZWQ2MmIwYjU2ZGUz/edit?pli=1&hl=en&docId=0B1Nr32u9sF3EMmZhMDlmNzYtYjY3YS00NjY4LTlmZGYtYzAxZGEzMmJjY2Vi)
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Alright, I am fine with the pool method without secondary commanders if we can work on balancing the gifts a little more. Basically we would have this:
"Each capital ship in your fleet grants you 1d6 to roll on the gifts table. A capital ship that rolls a 6 for leadership selects a single gift from the gifts table instead of rolling for a gift. These gifts form a pool from which the player must assign one gift to every eligible capital ship in your fleet."
...but with balanced gifts. Andrew posted some gifts that I thought were MUCH more appealing than we have right now. If we can work with that, I CONCEDE. :'( ;D
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I'm not fundamentally opposed to tweaking the gifts themselves, but I think that should be tabled until the rest of the changes to admech have a chance to settle. At least I think there were some point tweaks to the base costs that popped up that should be tested with the gift system before we do anything else.
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Alright, could we at least work on a proposed new gift set, maybe andrew's gifts, that we can go and playtest with this new pool system? I will start playtesting this sunday if we can settle on something to work with.
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I don't have a problem with discussing tweaks to the gifts while this round of changes is tested but play testing with changes to the gifts themselves and changes to the fleet overall isn't a good idea because it makes it difficult to see if a change had the desired effect or if the change is balanced.
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Im confused, i posted something in the other vote thread i think applies here.
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Ok just trying to pull this discussion out of the fleet discussion so we can work on getting a play ready list ready for testing without getting bogged down by possible changes to the gifts.
Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled,
the ship does not reduce turrets, shielding or
weapons strength. The vessel still counts as
crippled in every other respect.
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed,
as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special
orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when
attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading
or Burn Retros special orders.
Advanced Shielding: Ignore all negative effects
of having a blast marker or gas clouds in contact
with the ship's base as it applies to leadership,
movement and repairing critical damage. For each
hit against the shields, roll a D6, the hit is ignored
and no blast marker is placed. This effect goes
away if the ship suffers “Shields Collapsed†critical
damage
Fleet Defense Turrets: Two fleet defense turrets
are added to the ship capable of protecting itself
or any one other vessel within 15cm each
ordnance phase, adding +2 to the turret strength
of the ship it is defending (this does not alter
bomber attack rolls when used to defend another
vessel). These otherwise work exactly as normal
turrets do in all other respects.
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship adds +1 to
its leadership when attempting Lock On special
orders.
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries
shift left on the gunnery table before all other
modifiers are applied. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6.
Ok ideas for tweaking gifts. I'm assuming the in the following you are looking at the standard admech gifts from FAQ2010 and applying the changes.
1. EER
2. Advanced engines: allow a ship equipped with AE to initiate turns one class better than it is. So a battleship would move 10cm before turning, cruisers could begin turning at any point in a move.
3. Advanced shield: hits against shields must be resolved using the highest armor value on the ship.
4. FDT: add +2 turrets to the ship rather than replace ones already on the ship. If your ship has 4 turrets you go to 6. No turrets over 6 so if you have 5 you still only get six turrets.
5. Gstm: allow the ship to reroll any to hit dice that roll one (does not apply if the ship is locked on)
6. AWR: no change.
Ok after sifting through what we have on the other thread these were the proposals I found so far.
EER: Im not sure what Vaaish intended when he said this.
My earlier version had this a 100% power instead of 75% when crippled.
Something else might be to allow a boost to weapons power while on BFI, this option may make more sense under GSTM tho.
Advanced Engines: My version adds to the FAQ2010 version a +1 to leadership tests for AAF, CtNH, and BR.
Vaaish put in to have AE lower the turn requirement by a ship size.
I would think Vaaish's version would work well as "Reduce the ships minimum distance required to turn by 5cm" This would go well as an addition to the FAQ2010 rules.
Advanced Shields: To the FAQ2010 version I added the option to roll a D6 for each hit against the shields and on a result of 6 ignore the hit, no blast marker is placed. This is identical to the "Overload Shield Capacitors" refit from the BBB.
Vaaish's idea is to resolve all shield hits at the highest armor for the ship. I would say maybe just level it as all shield hits must be a 6, the highest armor on just about all of the ships anyway. Would this just count for weapons batteries or lances too?
FDT: yup we both think they should ADD two fleet defense turrets, I like the maximum of 6 it makes it less of an option for the battleships and really the carriers too, this should be a good option for the gunships.
GSTM: My version added a +1 to lockon leadership tests to the FAQ2010 version
Vaaish opted to add a re-roll for 1's
Another good option might be to go the route of the EET and bump the power from 75% to 100%, also it might be ok to allow a boost to weapons power while on BFI
AWR: no change so far
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Good call on this thread.
I think this is the best of what I have heard so far:
1. Emergency Energy Reserves: "When on All Ahead Full, Burn
Retros or Come to New Heading special orders,
its weapom batteries and lances
are unaffected. (exact same thing as Tenacity from the Tyranid evolutions).
2. Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed,
as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special
orders. Reduce the ships minimum distance required to turn by 5cm (Vaaish + 2010 version as Andrew Suggested)
3. Advanced Shielding: Ignore all negative effects
of having a blast marker or gas clouds in contact
with the ship's base as it applies to leadership,
movement and repairing critical damage. For each
hit against the shields, roll a D6, the hit is ignored
and no blast marker is placed. This effect goes
away if the ship suffers “Shields Collapsed†critical
damage. (Andrew version)
4. Fleet Defense Turrets: add +2 turrets to the ship rather than replace ones already on the ship. If your ship has 4 turrets you go to 6. No turrets over 6 so if you have 5 you still only get six turrets.
5. Gyro Stabilized Targeting Matrix: allow the ship to reroll any to hit dice that roll one (does not apply if the ship is locked on) + The ship adds +1 to
its leadership when attempting Lock On special
orders. (Vaaish + Andrew. this is awesome because it basically makes the ships a targeting type ships. when not on LO, reroll 1s. it also has +1ld TO lock on. cool dynamic)
6. AWR - no change.
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I had intended to come back after I'd thought about EER more but I haven't thought of anything that ties to the idea of energy reserves that would be interesting and not already mentioned. I'm not sure that I like the idea of entirely negating the downsides for SO with EER though. Too much of a boost I think.
I would think Vaaish's version would work well as "Reduce the ships minimum distance required to turn by 5cm" This would go well as an addition to the FAQ2010 rules.
Going this route might have implications outside of just letting a ship turn a bit sooner, I opted to go with the classes because they are fairly airtight in rules definition. There's less room for argumentation, but -5cm also works in most of the cases I can think of at the moment. It just needs a bit more thought to make sure we aren't opening any holes.
Vaaish's idea is to resolve all shield hits at the highest armor for the ship. I would say maybe just level it as all shield hits must be a 6, the highest armor on just about all of the ships anyway. Would this just count for weapons batteries or lances too?
It would only affect weapons that roll against the armor value. I didn't want to give it a fixed 6+ because I felt it could be too much of a crutch. Giving it to a CL with 5+ armor all around it doesn't do a whole lot. Giving it to a battleship or cruiser with a 6+ prow and it becomes much more valuable... which incidentally puts it into competition with AWR as a defensive foil to the boosted offense. Going fixed 6+ reverses this and makes it more desirable on low armor ships.
Vaaish opted to add a re-roll for 1's
Again this is a foil to AWR without a considerable boost in power. AWR benefits long range shooting while GSTM helps shorter ranged ships boost into combat without taking as big of a hit (weapons are at 75% when going on AAF etc) The reroll of ones only shows up around 16% of the time but is always active so it gives you consistent utility and adds a fun dynamic when it comes into effect.
For each
hit against the shields, roll a D6, the hit is ignored
and no blast marker is placed. This effect goes
away if the ship suffers “Shields Collapsed†critical
damage. (Andrew version)
I don't think I like this particular mechanic for two reasons. I think it brings more dice rolling than necessary into the turn sequence even though the refit is in the BBB. I'm also not fond of using an already existing rule as part of a different rule especially copied verbatim because it opens things up for confusion down the road.
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I agree with you on the shields it does force a lot of extra rolling, and one at a time to boot. It's also a bit over the top when combined with the rest of the rule.
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I had intended to come back after I'd thought about EER more but I haven't thought of anything that ties to the idea of energy reserves that would be interesting and not already mentioned. I'm not sure that I like the idea of entirely negating the downsides for SO with EER though. Too much of a boost I think.
I would think Vaaish's version would work well as "Reduce the ships minimum distance required to turn by 5cm" This would go well as an addition to the FAQ2010 rules.
Going this route might have implications outside of just letting a ship turn a bit sooner, I opted to go with the classes because they are fairly airtight in rules definition. There's less room for argumentation, but -5cm also works in most of the cases I can think of at the moment. It just needs a bit more thought to make sure we aren't opening any holes.
Vaaish's idea is to resolve all shield hits at the highest armor for the ship. I would say maybe just level it as all shield hits must be a 6, the highest armor on just about all of the ships anyway. Would this just count for weapons batteries or lances too?
It would only affect weapons that roll against the armor value. I didn't want to give it a fixed 6+ because I felt it could be too much of a crutch. Giving it to a CL with 5+ armor all around it doesn't do a whole lot. Giving it to a battleship or cruiser with a 6+ prow and it becomes much more valuable... which incidentally puts it into competition with AWR as a defensive foil to the boosted offense. Going fixed 6+ reverses this and makes it more desirable on low armor ships.
Vaaish opted to add a re-roll for 1's
Again this is a foil to AWR without a considerable boost in power. AWR benefits long range shooting while GSTM helps shorter ranged ships boost into combat without taking as big of a hit (weapons are at 75% when going on AAF etc) The reroll of ones only shows up around 16% of the time but is always active so it gives you consistent utility and adds a fun dynamic when it comes into effect.
For each
hit against the shields, roll a D6, the hit is ignored
and no blast marker is placed. This effect goes
away if the ship suffers “Shields Collapsed†critical
damage. (Andrew version)
I don't think I like this particular mechanic for two reasons. I think it brings more dice rolling than necessary into the turn sequence even though the refit is in the BBB. I'm also not fond of using an already existing rule as part of a different rule especially copied verbatim because it opens things up for confusion down the road.
Ok so you speak favorably of -5cm to turns for Advanced Engines (needs playtesting of course), reroll of 1's for GSTM. I don't understand why you think something that is already established would be confusing. I think the exact opposite will happen, you will recognize it and know how it works. If you have used Tenacity before, you will understand how EER works (if that's the change we go with). If there is already a refit with roll a 6 to remove a blast marker, why not use it? If you think there are too many rolls involved but the power level is good, we just need to find something with the same power level and go with that instead. It seems a bit crippling to just say that because you have to take more time to roll some more dice throughout the game that it is a bad option.
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I don't understand why you think something that is already established would be confusing. I think the exact opposite will happen, you will recognize it and know how it works
It's confusing because you now have two different rules that do identical things. It also creates duplication in the rule set which is bad. The fix is to throw out the existing Advanced Shields and just use the refit version or not use the refit version in advanced shields. I'm also not fond of the 40k method of creating special rules that are then referenced by other special rules because it creates more effort for a player to track down what the rule actually does.
If there is already a refit with roll a 6 to remove a blast marker, why not use it?
It's an excellent point and there is no issue if you are using that particular refit as a gift for mechanicus in its entirety. The only question whether that is the best solution. The issue comes when you take the rule, give it a different name and call it done or, worse yet, just say the refit is included with the gift.
If you think there are too many rolls involved but the power level is good, we just need to find something with the same power level and go with that instead. It seems a bit crippling to just say that because you have to take more time to roll some more dice throughout the game that it is a bad option.
That's why I suggested rolling on the ships highest armor value no matter facing. It gives you a refit that works well with ships having 6+ prows but not so well with 5+ armor. A two shield cruiser or a 4 shield BB is going to be a tough nut to crack with shooting if you have to roll 6's to knock down shields while it's abeam.
It seems a bit crippling to just say that because you have to take more time to roll some more dice throughout the game that it is a bad option.
It's a time issue. Games typically take two hours maybe a bit less to play, you don't want to waste time with paperwork or more dice rolls than necessary. If a solution exists that provides similar utility (harder to take down shields) without adding dice rolls it keeps the game flowing. Sometimes rolling more dice is a good option, sometimes not.
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I don't understand why you think something that is already established would be confusing. I think the exact opposite will happen, you will recognize it and know how it works
It's confusing because you now have two different rules that do identical things. It also creates duplication in the rule set which is bad. The fix is to throw out the existing Advanced Shields and just use the refit version or not use the refit version in advanced shields. I'm also not fond of the 40k method of creating special rules that are then referenced by other special rules because it creates more effort for a player to track down what the rule actually does.
Gift name + rules right on your Admech document. It's not confusing at all, you just apply the rules of the gift to your ship. If you happen to make the connection that this gift is the same as that evolution, why does it matter? :o
If there is already a refit with roll a 6 to remove a blast marker, why not use it?
It's an excellent point and there is no issue if you are using that particular refit as a gift for mechanicus in its entirety. The only question whether that is the best solution. The issue comes when you take the rule, give it a different name and call it done or, worse yet, just say the refit is included with the gift.
Why is that an issue? My guess is most won't have a problem with that. In fact, we can even give it the same name of the refit if you would like. I see no reason that this is an issue. We already have precedent for gifts of the omnissiah that are just renamed refits: EER IS Motion-Tracking Targeters.
If you think there are too many rolls involved but the power level is good, we just need to find something with the same power level and go with that instead. It seems a bit crippling to just say that because you have to take more time to roll some more dice throughout the game that it is a bad option.
That's why I suggested rolling on the ships highest armor value no matter facing. It gives you a refit that works well with ships having 6+ prows but not so well with 5+ armor. A two shield cruiser or a 4 shield BB is going to be a tough nut to crack with shooting if you have to roll 6's to knock down shields while it's abeam.
It seems a bit crippling to just say that because you have to take more time to roll some more dice throughout the game that it is a bad option.
It's a time issue. Games typically take two hours maybe a bit less to play, you don't want to waste time with paperwork or more dice rolls than necessary. If a solution exists that provides similar utility (harder to take down shields) without adding dice rolls it keeps the game flowing. Sometimes rolling more dice is a good option, sometimes not.
Alright, I'll buy it. Consider me sold.
Budge with me once again? Would you be willing to adopt EER as the Tyranid Tenacity and EER as Motion-Tracking Targeters and we can go with your Advanced Shielding option and parts of your ideas for GSTM and Advanced Engines?
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Why is that an issue? My guess is most won't have a problem with that. In fact, we can even give it the same name of the refit if you would like. I see no reason that this is an issue. We already have precedent for gifts of the omnissiah that are just renamed refits: EER IS Motion-Tracking Targeters.
Just because the designers did it doesn't make it automatically a good idea. I think that we'd all agree with this since part of what's being done with BFGR is to change things that aren't quite working. :) Of course BFG is also a simple enough game that it may be impossible to create a new, useful effect without overlapping an existing rule.
Would you be willing to adopt EER as the Tyranid Tenacity and EER as Motion-Tracking Targeters
I'd be willing to consider it, but I think it's a rather inelegant solution since we'd need to reference two separate documents. I really think we can do better.
Just a thought, but what about making EER affect BFI? That would definitely fall into the category of what you need. Maybe let the player add +1 shield to the ship when on BFI or some such?
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Why is that an issue? My guess is most won't have a problem with that. In fact, we can even give it the same name of the refit if you would like. I see no reason that this is an issue. We already have precedent for gifts of the omnissiah that are just renamed refits: EER IS Motion-Tracking Targeters.
Just because the designers did it doesn't make it automatically a good idea. I think that we'd all agree with this since part of what's being done with BFGR is to change things that aren't quite working. :) Of course BFG is also a simple enough game that it may be impossible to create a new, useful effect without overlapping an existing rule.
I do agree with you. I just think it is better to use rules already in place because they have been around a long time and people know how they work. Why reinvent it if it isn't broken? Again, there is no reason to worry about confusion, so there should be no problem with just making the gift the same as a refit just because you presume it will be confusing, though I presume otherwise.
Would you be willing to adopt EER as the Tyranid Tenacity and EER as Motion-Tracking Targeters
I'd be willing to consider it, but I think it's a rather inelegant solution since we'd need to reference two separate documents. I really think we can do better.
Just a thought, but what about making EER affect BFI? That would definitely fall into the category of what you need. Maybe let the player add +1 shield to the ship when on BFI or some such?
We don't need to reference two different documents when the rules will be written right on the Admech list. What other document will we need? I think your idea may work but I would like to encourage NOT going on BFI instead of going on BFI.
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My opinions in the body of the quotes below:
Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled,
the ship does not reduce turrets, shielding or
weapons strength. The vessel still counts as
crippled in every other respect.
I think leave this at 75%, so that there's some effect of crippling.
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed,
as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special
orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when
attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading
or Burn Retros special orders.
I like this change. Makes the refit somewhat more usable.
Advanced Shielding: Ignore all negative effects
of having a blast marker or gas clouds in contact
with the ship's base as it applies to leadership,
movement and repairing critical damage. For each
hit against the shields, roll a D6, the hit is ignored
and no blast marker is placed on a roll of 6. This effect goes
away if the ship suffers “Shields Collapsed†critical
damage
Don't think I like this addition much. I think I prefer a version of Vaaish's idea here.
Fleet Defense Turrets: Two fleet defense turrets
are added to the ship capable of protecting itself
or any one other vessel within 15cm each
ordnance phase, adding +2 to the turret strength
of the ship it is defending (this does not alter
bomber attack rolls when used to defend another
vessel). These otherwise work exactly as normal
turrets do in all other respects.
I hate FDT. It's a crappy refit, it does sod all and, most importantly, I can't imagine how it would work. Hell, if it's possible to have your AA guns fire upto 15cm away so effectively then why don't all ships have FDT as standard? How is it possible to hit AC that are weaving in and out of the shadow of the target? In fact, why bother waiting to shoot until they're right on top of the target rather than, say, when they're on their way in out in the open and travelling in a straight line? I hate FDT.
I would much rather this whole entry was replaced, say by Vaaish's advanced manoeuvring thrusters (the -5cm to minimum turn distance one).
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship adds +1 to
its leadership when attempting Lock On special
orders.
This one is good. At least now that targeting matrix actually comes in handy when trying to shoot at the enemy, as well as when manoeuvring.
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries
shift left on the gunnery table before all other
modifiers are applied. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6.
Always was the best option, so no modification needed.
2. Advanced engines: allow a ship equipped with AE to initiate turns one class better than it is. So a battleship would move 10cm before turning, cruisers could begin turning at any point in a move.
I like this concept, but I think it would be better served as a straight -5cm to minimum distance before turning. I'm not sure about cruisers being able to turn on the spot. However, my preference for this option would be as a replacement to the hated FDT, not as a replacement to the other manoeuvring refit.
3. Advanced shield: hits against shields must be resolved using the highest armor value on the ship.
I like this concept. This would be my preferred shield mod. However I would say at +1 armour (max 6). A light cruiser with this refit would otherwise gain no benefit at all. And if this refit were ever stolen and used by someone else (Orks say) then it would raise their 4+ rear armour to 6+ as long as the shields are up.
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We don't need to reference two different documents when the rules will be written right on the Admech list. What other document will we need? I think your idea may work but I would like to encourage NOT going on BFI instead of going on BFI.
I thought you were going to list the gift simply as reference Tenacity and MTT. I highly doubt the extra shield or two would encourage BFI. You are severely limiting your own capability to do any return damage and preventing the use of any other SO. At best you are passing two brace saves automatically and in a typical brace scenario that might just account for the difference between hulked and disengaging or crippled.
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FDT is a good rule but a stupid concept which does make the rule crap.
How about a fleet defense targeting system, add 2 turrets to the chosen vessel (to a maximum of 6) and allow it and any friendly ship within 30cm to reroll misses with turrets.
I think the idea behind the -5cm to turning was that it would be in addition to the benefit already given by advanced engines.
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So far, these seem to be sticking with people:
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed,
as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special
orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when
attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading
or Burn Retros special orders.
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries
shift left on the gunnery table before all other
modifiers are applied. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6. (the usual)
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship adds +1 to
its leadership when attempting Lock On special
orders.
I realized that I had said EER should be the same rules as Tenacity but I meant GSTM. Oops.
What I would like to see:
GSTM - GSTM either just like Tenacity (don't reduce firepower at all for AAF, BR, or CTNH) OR reduce only 25% and reroll 1s. The +1 Ld to LO doesn't seem to fir the "targeting matrix" concept like reroll 1s does. So, I would prefer this:
*Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders.
Advanced Shielding - I like Sig's idea of just increasing the armor by 1 for Advanced Shielding. This makes it more useful for light cruisers.
*Advances Shielding: A ship with Advanced Shielding increases its armor values by 1 to a maximum on 6+.
Fleet Defense Turrets - I like Andrew's new idea a lot. "How about a fleet defense targeting system, add 2 turrets to the chosen vessel (to a maximum of 6) and allow it and any friendly ship within 30cm to reroll misses with turrets."
*Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value. On top of this, the vessel may choose a friendly ship or squadron within 30cm that may reroll missed turrets this Ordnance Phase.
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I dont know about that whole +1 shield when on BFI :/. It seems to me that if i had the ability to throw up an additional shield id do it all the time :D. what does that mean for ships with two shields also? Adding a third shield would push them to a large base, should i pick up and swap bases at that point then or gloss over the obvious rule descripency? How about allowing hits against the shields to be braced instead?
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Oops, I posted my edited post after you posted that...
I think being able to brace with shields would do the same thing and if fact be more powerful for battleships. A battleship will have the equivalent of 2 shield while on BFI with that EER. That scaling is not the best IMO. If we are going to go with some sort of bracing effect, which I am not the biggest fan of, I think the +1 shield when bracing balances things better.
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I realized that I had said EER should be the same rules as Tenacity but I meant GSTM. Oops.
What I would like to see:
GSTM - GSTM either just like Tenacity (don't reduce firepower at all for AAF, BR, or CTNH) OR reduce only 25% and reroll 1s. The +1 Ld to LO doesn't seem to fir the "targeting matrix" concept like reroll 1s does. So, I would prefer this:
*Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders.
Yup, targeting matrix wouldnt make targeting any better at all ::). The re-roll ones idea could work, its always on nature is kind of off putting tho. I think I like the no reduction more than the re-rolls but like Sig said about EER, theres no effect then.
Advanced Shielding - I like Sig's idea of just increasing the armor by 1 for Advanced Shielding. This makes it more useful for light cruisers.
*Advances Shielding: A ship with Advanced Shielding increases its armor values by 1 to a maximum on 6+.
Is this it? It seems a bit underwhelming... And really shouldnt this be called Advanced Composites then? The light cruisers would see 6+ armor with any of these versions btw, only the Emperor type ships with 5+ all around armor would see a benifit from Sigs, This would put all ships at 6+ all around.
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GSTM - GSTM either just like Tenacity (don't reduce firepower at all for AAF, BR, or CTNH) OR reduce only 25% and reroll 1s. The +1 Ld to LO doesn't seem to fir the "targeting matrix" concept like reroll 1s does. So, I would prefer this:
*Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders.
Yup, targeting matrix wouldnt make targeting any better at all ::). The re-roll ones idea could work, its always on nature is kind of off putting tho. I think I like the no reduction more than the re-rolls but like Sig said about EER, theres no effect then.
I like the no reduction more as well.
Advanced Shielding - I like Sig's idea of just increasing the armor by 1 for Advanced Shielding. This makes it more useful for light cruisers.
*Advances Shielding: A ship with Advanced Shielding increases its armor values by 1 to a maximum on 6+.
Is this it? It seems a bit underwhelming... And really shouldnt this be called Advanced Composites then? The light cruisers would see 6+ armor with any of these versions btw, only the Emperor type ships with 5+ all around armor would see a benifit from Sigs, This would put all ships at 6+ all around.
6+ armor on prow means only damaged half the time on any 5+ armor because of the upgrade to 6+. Imagine a full on 6+ armor Retribution running around, or an Apoc, or even a Gothic or Tyrant. I think this is a pretty big deal. That's about a 16pt upgrade for cruisers, 30pts for light cruisers, 24pts for 6+ prow battleships, and 40pts for 5+ armor battleships. Hmm, maybe we need something that is a little more evened out...
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Ya Strike Cruisers are pretty stout with 6 hits and Barges are beastly, even with their poor range, thats probably why theyre expensive ;).
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Ya Strike Cruisers are pretty stout with 6 hits and Barges are beastly, even with their poor range, thats probably why theyre expensive ;).
Yet, I suppose the upgrade cost for battleships is going to cost more so that makes sense it would effect them more. So, I'm game.
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I like the no reduction more as well.
The mechanics behind SO always give you an advantage but do so at a cost. Even refit modifiers still maintain some penalty. Removing the penalty entirely removes that cost/benefit mechanic which I think should be avoided under any circumstances.
Is this it? It seems a bit underwhelming... And really shouldnt this be called Advanced Composites then? The light cruisers would see 6+ armor with any of these versions btw, only the Emperor type ships with 5+ all around armor would see a benifit from Sigs, This would put all ships at 6+ all around.
If I may direct us back, I think that this should return to what I originally posted where hits are resolved using the ships highest armor value until shields are down. This avoids the sudden boost of everything to 6+ all around and means some of the softer prows on the BB don't get any boost. It also keeps ordnance attacks unchanged which is something that just upping the armor value by +1 affects.
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The mechanics behind SO always give you an advantage but do so at a cost. Even refit modifiers still maintain some penalty. Removing the penalty entirely removes that cost/benefit mechanic which I think should be avoided under any circumstances.
Yes there should be some penalty, with the Nids I think it was easier to remove the weapon reduction penalty because of their Instinctive
Orders, the 10% price tag didnt hurt either.
If I may direct us back, I think that this should return to what I originally posted where hits are resolved using the ships highest armor value until shields are down. This avoids the sudden boost of everything to 6+ all around and means some of the softer prows on the BB don't get any boost. It also keeps ordnance attacks unchanged which is something that just upping the armor value by +1 affects.
I dont know, it seems to me that this should be an always on mechanic to reduce confusion. If we limit this to a boost to the armor when shields are up does that mean people must sit and throw dice one at a time looking for 6's to take down the shields then to hit armor once the shields are down? Or should we throw them all at once? This is also limiting the effectiveness to just weapons batteries, lances would be unaffected.On a few ships this would have no effect at all (Emperor, Oberon) that should be avoided.
How about something like: The ships shield array emitters have been anoited and blessed to further reduce the effects of weapons fire. This, along with a complex system of mulitspectrum jamming devices and holo emitters studded around the ship, works to confuse the visual and electronic tracking systems of enemy vessels.
Advanced Shielding Weapon batteries
targeting the ship must shift right on the
gunnery table before all other modifiers are
applied. Lances must hit against the facing
armor value of the ship.
The perfect counterpart to AWR??? This would also be universally useful to the ships.
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So kind of like a AdMech holofield lite? I like it except for the lances. Why don't we just make it "Lances hit on a 5+"
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Tenacity can be put on a tyranids hive ship for 20pts. Tyranids have to deal with instinctive behavior with or without tenacity. They are going to try to gain control of their ships anyways and if they do, they get a free special order. I don't see any downside to tenacity in that. Plus, tenacity can even benefit some behaviors. It doesn't have a downside for them. Plus, the admech ship with this girt is giving up some other gift for this so that's a downside in itself. If we keep it at 75%, we will need to give them more than that for that gift.
I like the holofield light for advanced shielding. Great idea. I think I prefer the column shift and the 5+ for lances. That makes it really simple and consistent compared to the roll against armor for the lances.
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Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries
shift left on the gunnery table before all other
modifiers are applied. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6. (the usual)
One thing I would like to change about this is the wording. Dump the "before all other modifiers are applied" part. It's silly. Consider that you're shooting at a defence at long range. So you start at the left-most column and now you're forced to apply your AWR left-column shift, which takes you exactly nowhere, and then you get the long range right-column shift leaving you in the "closing cap ship" column. Clearly these two should cancel out and leave you in the defences column. Stupid wording.
*Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s
while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on
special orders.
This is ok.
Advanced Shielding - I like Sig's idea of just increasing the armor by 1 for Advanced Shielding. This makes it more useful for light cruisers.
*Advances Shielding: A ship with Advanced Shielding increases its armor values by 1 to a maximum on 6+.
This should say that shield hits are at +1 armour, as per Vaaish's original idea. How this would work, in effect, would be that in any batch of shooting if there are enough hits to take down shields at the improved armour then the rolls that would would have hit the regular armour, do. If the shields don't go down, then they don't. For example, a CL has the upgrade giving its shield an armour rating of 6+ which is then shot at by 8WB dice in a single salvo. The rolls come up 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5. Since no shot gets through the strengthened shield the ship takes no hits. If the rolls were 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6 then the shield would be dropped and it would take 2 hull hits. If the firing ship is on LO then it would have to re-roll all misses, including the three 5's from the 1st example (since the shields are still up they all count as misses).
Of course, people could easily get around this extra defence simply by dropping the shields with lances, however then subsequent fire would have intervening blast markers.
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So no bonus vs Lances? Which makes it a pitfall of an upgrade. The concept is good though.
Why not plain or tweaked holofield rule adaption?
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I think the MMS holofield would work well. It's not dependent on what the ship already has that makes it work well for this kind of thing.
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The holofield idea does fit better IMO. But holofields are more like an ECM than shields, wouldn't it be better to brand it something like "Scattering field"?
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The holofield idea does fit better IMO. But holofields are more like an ECM than shields, wouldn't it be better to brand it something like "Scattering field"?
Or "Electronic Countermeasures"? ;) A new name would be appropriate for this yes, The lol fluff and advanced shield name were 1: funny :P and 2: a means keeping the confusion down.
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Seems to be a lot of interest in making Advanced Shielding into Holofields. So what about this (supporters are in italics):
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: 1. Ship weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50% when on All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s
while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders. (Sig)OR 2. just like Tenacity. (afterimagedan, andrew)
-Andrew, my point about the targeting matrix getting +1 LO is something I don't like because it's a bonus to leadership. I would rather than just making the shooting better like the Tenacity effect. +1 to LO fluffwise seems more like a leadership boost instead of a targeting boost. I still prefer the second option.
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries shift left on the gunnery table. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6. (reworded) (everybody, it seems)
Advanced Shielding: 1. just like Eldar MMS Holofields OR 2. Enemy weapon batteries firing on the vessel suffer a right shift on the weapon battery chart. All lances firing on this vessel only cause a hit on a 5+ (counter to AWR) (Vaaish, afterimagedan)
Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value. On top of this, the vessel may choose a friendly ship or squadron within 30cm that may reroll missed turrets this Ordnance Phase. (Andrew, afterimagedan)
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. (Andrew, afterimagedan, Sig)
Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.
-I think this needs to be buffed.
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Seems to be a lot of interest in making Advanced Shielding into Holofields. So what about this (supporters are in italics):
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: 1. Ship weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50% when on All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s
while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders. (Sig)OR 2. just like Tenacity. (afterimagedan, andrew)
-Andrew, my point about the targeting matrix getting +1 LO is something I don't like because it's a bonus to leadership. I would rather than just making the shooting better like the Tenacity effect. +1 to LO fluffwise seems more like a leadership boost instead of a targeting boost. I still prefer the second option.
Im not really for either so I can get behind the 75% drop in firepower and re-roll ones, Im pretty sure Vaaish backs that too.
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries shift left on the gunnery table. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6. (reworded) (everybody, it seems)
This should remain the base everything else is compared to.
Advanced Shielding: 1. just like Eldar MMS Holofields OR 2. Enemy weapon batteries firing on the vessel suffer a right shift on the weapon battery chart. All lances firing on this vessel only cause a hit on a 5+ (counter to AWR) (Vaaish, afterimagedan)
Holofields: The Eldar are protected not only by
shielding but also by sophisticated ECM that
actually produce multiple local engine signatures
whilst actively masking the parent ship’s engine
signature. The effect of this is a general interference
that makes accurate targeting extremely difficult.
Against attacks which make use of the gunnery
chart the Holofields force one extra right shift on the
gunnery table, this in addition to any other shift on
the gunnery table. The holofield does not work under
15cm.
Against attacks which make no use of the gunnery
table and target the ship directly (like Lances but not
Nova Cannons or Armageddon Guns), the holofield
offers a save to represent the difficulty of targeting
the Eldar vessel. Whenever an Eldar vessel is hit by
such an attack roll a D6 per hit and compare it to
the holofield save. If the roll equals or exceeds the
holofield save then do not place the blast marker,
the holofield has thwarted the enemy sensors . If not
then place the blast marker as normal, a shield has
overloaded. The holofield keeps on working even if
all shields have been overloaded.
The Holofield is more effective the further away the
Eldar vessel is. See the following table for which
save applies to the holofield:
• Above 30cm - save on 5+
• Between 15-30cm - save on 6+
• Under 15cm - no save
Note: Against attacks which normally ignore
Holofields like the Star Pulse Generator or from an
Activated Blackstone Fortress the Holofield offers no
protection.
Holofields do not save against ordnance.
Just a refresher for those that havent had a good look lately. Im clearly more in the "holofields lite" version 8) standard holofields skew it a little too high. The standardized "Lances require a 5+ to hit" seems decent and wont be as unforgiving as my hits against armor requirement for those 6+ prows.
Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value. On top of this, the vessel may choose a friendly ship or squadron within 30cm that may reroll missed turrets this Ordnance Phase. (Andrew, afterimagedan)
Actually my line of thinking was that it work just like: "The Custodian has an integrated Tracking System coupled to an extremely sophisticated sensor suite. It functions in the same manner as that on Messenger starships in all respects but has a range of 20cm" Only the re-rolls for turrets of course not the weapons modifier, 20cm range would be fine if anyone thinks that 30cm is pushing it, I dont however think that limiting the re-rolls to one vessel/ turn would be adequate.
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. (Andrew, afterimagedan, Sig)
Shesy
Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.
-I think this needs to be buffed.
I agree but its a touchy one... I still hate that this requires your ship to be crippled before it comes into effect.
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So, what can we use to buff EER? Also, what does "shesy" mean? Could you write out your Fleet Defense Turrets idea? I am having a hard time getting where you are going. I can get behind the GSTM with the rerolling 1s.
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: 1. Ship weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50% when on All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its lances and weapon batteries.
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries shift left on the gunnery table. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6. (reworded original)
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders.
So, I think FDT, AS, and EER need a bit more work. I could for for your fleet defense turrets at 20cm, maybe even 15cm. EER seems like it needs a buff. It's a big "what if" because it may never take effect in a game. I mean, yes, it's an insurance plan. I think it needs a constant bonus too. I really like Vaaish's AS rules too.
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How about a fleet defense targeting system, add 2 turrets to the chosen vessel (to a maximum of 6) and allow it and any friendly ship within 30cm to reroll misses with turrets.
Shesy = sexy with a bad accent ;).
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Nice.
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*Jumps in* Well, what if keeping with its Emergency theme EER has an additional preventative measure: it reduces the crippled threshold to 1/4, rounding up. The ADmech CLs benefit especially, giving them an extra hit before really becoming a points drain. Or is this too much?
And/or, and this is a small one, give a bonus to repair dice.
-Duke
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Im not really for either so I can get behind the 75% drop in firepower and re-roll ones, Im pretty sure Vaaish backs that too.
correct.
Enemy weapon batteries firing on the vessel suffer a right shift on the weapon battery chart. All lances firing on this vessel only cause a hit on a 5+ (counter to AWR) (Vaaish, afterimagedan)
I would still prefer the shifts and 5+ over straight up holofields. And I'd go for the counts hits against shields using the ships highest armor value. It's simple to understand and use and gives a small boost that can still be countered. It also only relates to shields while the shifts relate to all hits which gets a bit away from the shield mechanic.
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders.
were we still looking at -5cm to minimum turn distance on AE?
Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect
what about this: If a crippled vessel equipped with EER disengages, it only gives up 10% VP instead of the full 25%.
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And/or, and this is a small one, give a bonus to repair dice.
-Duke
I was thinking about repair dice too but those are still definite "what if" occurrences. I would like to see a more constant effect.
Im not really for either so I can get behind the 75% drop in firepower and re-roll ones, Im pretty sure Vaaish backs that too.
correct.
I'm down with this.
Enemy weapon batteries firing on the vessel suffer a right shift on the weapon battery chart. All lances firing on this vessel only cause a hit on a 5+ (counter to AWR) (Vaaish, afterimagedan)
I would still prefer the shifts and 5+ over straight up holofields. And I'd go for the counts hits against shields using the ships highest armor value. It's simple to understand and use and gives a small boost that can still be countered. It also only relates to shields while the shifts relate to all hits which gets a bit away from the shield mechanic.
I think the shift and 5+ is the easiest to use and I think it balances better than the other option. I think I like the persistent effect that this has over the shields against the highest armor effect which only seems to deal with weapon batteries.
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders.
were we still looking at -5cm to minimum turn distance on AE?
Yes we were. Sorry about not posting that! Actually, I would like to see it combined with the +5cm move and +1D6 on AAF instead of the +1ld thing.
Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect
what about this: If a crippled vessel equipped with EER disengages, it only gives up 10% VP instead of the full 25%.
Eh, I don't know. Definitely something to keep on the table.
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What about something like:
Emergency Energy Reserves: When on Brace for Impact special order, reduce the ships weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. This effect goes away if the ship becomes crippled, but do not reduce its turrets, shielding, or speed. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.
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Let's not bury Duke's idea. Making it harder to cripple in the first place would be both rather good and both functionally and thematically applicable.
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What about something like:
Emergency Energy Reserves: When on Brace for Impact special order, reduce the ships weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. This effect goes away if the ship becomes crippled, but do not reduce its turrets, shielding, or speed. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.
Try this with a braced lunar. With rounding, it has very little penalty. Either way, I like where this is going. I could see Duke's add a repair dice added to the when crippled, you're at 75%. Maybe the ship counts as having two more hits when calculating repair dice amount (which means it gets 1 at some times).
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*Jumps in* Well, what if keeping with its Emergency theme EER has an additional preventative measure: it reduces the crippled threshold to 1/4, rounding up. The ADmech CLs benefit especially, giving them an extra hit before really becoming a points drain. Or is this too much?
And/or, and this is a small one, give a bonus to repair dice.
-Duke
Ya a CL gets +1 before crip bur a cruiser is +2 and a BB will take 9 to cripple!
This is heading in a good direction tho, how about weapons turrets shields@ 75% when crippled and the ship adds one hit point? It's subtle but this pushes the cripple threshold up slightly without being overwhelming on the battleships and adds an additional die to repair all in one.
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Nice touch, Andrewchristlieb. That's starting to look more appetizing... :P
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I like where that's going too but it could use a name change in this case. Maybe something to do with structure.
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Hmm, how long does the effect take place of EER then? And how do you play it:
My ship has been crippled for three turns (Lunar on 3 hits), then I go on EER, regain 2 hits for that turn and can shoot as if I where uncrippled again?
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Huh? No your Lunar would have 9 hits, once you hit 4 remaining your crippled and drop 5cm speed and -25% to weapons, shields, turrets. Clearly theres wording issues?
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how about: a vessel with EER becomes crippled when it has less than 50% of its starting hits remaining. Once crippled the vessel's blah blah blah are reduced to 75% instead of 50%.
A CL becomes crippled on hit 4, CA at hit 5, CG at hit 6, and a BB at hit 7
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I like that.
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Emergency Energy Reserves: The ship must lose more than 50% of its hit points to be crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, reduces the minimum distance to turn by 5cm, and add +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders.
Advanced Shielding: (Advanced ECM?) Enemy weapon batteries firing on the vessel suffer a right shift on the weapon battery chart. All lances firing on this vessel hit on a 5+ instead of 4+.
Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value and any friendly vessels within 15cm may reroll misses with turrets.
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50% when on All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders.
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries shift left on the gunnery table. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6.
Well then... this sound about right folks?
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Perfect. ;D Amazing.
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Awesome stuff, guys...small question: now that we have the gifts included (seems like that's the avenue people are taking), we need to increase the ships prices by a fair margin; we have increased the average gift power level after all.
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ok now we need to go over the gifts and decide if everything there needs to be there. For instance, does Advanced engines need the +1 tests with everything else it has in there? Or does FDT need the two bonus turrets if everyone is rerolling? Does the ship with FDT get to reroll turrets?
Stuff like that. More sometime unless I get too tired.
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The way it is written the vessel within 15cm does not gain 2 extra turrets, it only gets a re-roll.
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Part of me thinks we should make the advanced shielding a -1 to all lance rolls because of how phantom lances will work against it. Other than tat, it looks great.
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Part of me thinks we should make the advanced shielding a -1 to all lance rolls because of how phantom lances will work against it. Other than tat, it looks great.
Heh, no, that's great, give the locked-on DE a bonus. 8) Besides, at a -1 to the roll a Necron particle whip wouldn't be able to auto-penetrate shields.
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Good point on the particle whip.
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Re-rolls are nice, but the lack of concrete turret increase hurts if you get multiples of the fleet defense turret. Imagine if you ended up with 3+ of them, and how worthless that would be. I have not checked it, but I presume BFG is like 40k in that you can't re-roll a re-roll?
I was more in favour of it just adding turrets, although the re-rolls are more elegant and don't completely neuter bombers.
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I am going to review this to poke as many holes in it as possible...
Emergency Energy Reserves: The ship must lose more than 50% of its hit points to be crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.
Can't find a problem with this.
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, reduces the minimum distance to turn by 5cm, and add +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders.
No problems.
Advanced Shielding: (Advanced ECM?) Enemy weapon batteries firing on the vessel suffer a right shift on the weapon battery chart. All lances firing on this vessel hit on a 5+ instead of 4+.
I have already mentioned the phantom lance weirdness (hitting on 5 or 6 is always two hits so they either hit with 2 or 0, but whatever) but Sig mentioned that the -1 to hit with lances would penalize the Necron particle whip to heavily so I agree, this is good how it is.
Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value and any friendly vessels within 15cm may reroll misses with turrets.
It's good. Would the vessel with FDT be able to reroll their own turrets? A Tyrant has this upgrade. It is now at 5 turrets and on average will kill 2.5 markers instead of 1.5. That's a +1 kill upgrade. It helps a Retribution reroll turrets against bombers also which has 5 turrets now. It will kill 2.5 normally and with a reroll, kill 3.75. That's a +1.25 increase, better than the actual ship with the FDTS. This difference only increases when aiding Emperor. With that, I think the most appropriate thing would be to say yes, the ship with FDT can reroll their turrets too. It may be better to have the ship able to reroll their own turrets and pick 1 more ship during the turn to reroll theirs
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50% when on All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders.
This is awesome. Combine this on a Retribution with Advanced Engines and you have a mega alpha striking machine. Can't wait to try that out!
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries shift left on the gunnery table. Lance hits count as double on rolls of a 6.
Good, just like it was.
Well then... this sound about right folks?
Yep! I'm ready to vote one some Admech stuff.
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Re-rolls are nice, but the lack of concrete turret increase hurts if you get multiples of the fleet defense turret. Imagine if you ended up with 3+ of them, and how worthless that would be. I have not checked it, but I presume BFG is like 40k in that you can't re-roll a re-roll?
I was more in favour of it just adding turrets, although the re-rolls are more elegant and don't completely neuter bombers.
Sorry about that, Talos. I was writing while you posted. Yeah, I think FDT shouldn't just allow EVERY ship within 15cm to reroll, but each FDT adds two turrets to the vessel that has it (a really nice upgrade) and allow 1 ship/squadron to reroll their turrets that turn.
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Ok How about this for final:
Emergency Energy Reserves:A ship with EER becomes crippled when it loses more than 50% of its starting hit points. When crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, reduces the minimum distance to turn by 5cm, and add +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders.
Advanced Shielding: Weapons using the gunnery table suffer a right column shift when firing on a vessel equipped with Advanced Shielding. Lance weaponry firing on this vessel must roll a 5+ to score a hit.
Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value. This vessel and one additional vessel within 15cm chosen by the player each turn may reroll dice for any turrets that miss until the end of the turn.
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50% when on All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders.
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries shift left on the gunnery table. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6.
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I like it. I think the Advanced Engines was a little too packed with goodness and the +1 ld drop was a good idea. Also, I like how the FDTs look now. I think that gives it the balance it needs. I'm sold. Shall we vote? We have this, the admiral setup, and the point costs.
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Ok How about this for final:
Emergency Energy Reserves:A ship with EER becomes crippled when it loses more than 50% of its starting hit pointsinstead of when it reaches 50%. When crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, reduces the minimum distance to turn by 5cm, and add +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders.
Advanced Shielding: Weapons using the gunnery table suffer a right column shift when firing on a vessel equipped with Advanced Shielding. Lance weaponry firing on this vessel must roll a 5+ to score a hit.
I still think the name on this is off now. Its not really a shield effect any more so something like "Advanced Countermeasures" seems more appropriate.
Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value, to a maximum of 6. This vessel and one additional vessel within 15cm chosen by the player each turn may reroll dice for any turrets that miss until the end of the turn.
End of what turn? How does this work if were in the movement phase and a ship moves into ordinance? Can the re-rolls apply? If they can does the ship receiving the benefit retain that until the end of its turn or the end of the game turn? What about if the ship receiving the benefit is attacked in the other players turn? Does it remain under the effect until the end of that players turn, its next turn, or the end of the game turn?
I think the 15cm range with all ships in that range being able to re-roll turrets is the best bet, its already such a small benefit limiting it more seems like were shooting it in the foot although I could see dropping the extra turret to +1 if we could accommodate this.
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50% when on All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders.
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries shift left on the gunnery table. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6.
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Advances Countermeasures sounds alright but I think there may be better.
On the FDTs, it should say "Each friendly ship within 15cm may reroll all turrets that miss one time during each player turn."
All ships within 15cm combined with the vessel getting +1 turret falls back into that weird zone where the ship can help other ships better than it can help itself. I think let's just make it all ships within 15cm and keep it at +2 turrets and restrict it to one reroll of turrets per each ship per player turn.
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Admech Lunar (average ship) 3 turrets, +1 for FDT= 3 average hits counting re-rolls. The average Admech ship (3 turrets)= 2.5 on average, the best (Emperor)= 4.5 average. It would help itself more unless theres a Battleship, so there might be one ship in the fleet that would receive a better benefit.
Your version there sounds fine tho, if I had say three ships w/FDT within 15cm of a ship being attacked could that ship then re-roll against 3 seperate attacks?
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...starting hit points instead of when it reaches 50%.
I wouldn't add this. It creates a greater potential for confusion since it references something that is over ridden by the first part of the sentence. I realize that a lot of the existing rules add the original and the modified but it's unnecessary and makes it easier for people to overlook what the rule actually does.
I still think the name on this is off now. Its not really a shield effect any more so something like "Advanced Countermeasures" seems more appropriate.
I would still keep advanced shielding as the name. It helps people correlate it more easily to the standard table.
Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value, to a maximum of 6. This vessel and one additional vessel within 15cm chosen by the player each turn may reroll dice for any turrets that miss until the end of the turn.
ok, how about this:
Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value, to a maximum of 6. This vessel and one additional vessel within 15cm chosen by the player at the start of his movement phase may reroll dice for any turrets that miss until the player's next movement phase.
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Could they be used, alternately, to enable a roll for turrets/bombers if they had been used on the other kind first? Hmm, I like your idea of each FDT vessel within range just allows another reroll. Can the rerolls all be used against the same volley/wave?
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I agree with you Vaaish on the advanced shielding statement. Also on the rules wording. For FDT, I think they shouldn't have to be picked in the movement phase because then the ship will just be avoided and something else will get bombed. I like the reactive choice. I think the way andrew has it is the way to go.
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easy fix:
Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value, to a maximum of 6. This vessel and one additional vessel within 15cm chosen by the player at the start of each ordnance phase may reroll dice for any turrets.
I'm a little confused what else is changing though..
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No double re-rolls! Just you can re-roll against any one attack using the FDT benefit, so ships x,y,and z have FDT and are with in 15cm of ship a. Ship a gets attacked by a wave of attack craft and uses the benefit from ship x to re-roll turrets. Ship a is then attacked by a 2nd wave of attack craft and uses the benefit from ship y to re-roll turrets. Finally it is attacked by a salvo of torpedoes but may not use its turrets since they were used against attack craft this turn. If ship a is attacked by attack craft again it may use the benefit provided by ship z, but ship a would then be unable to take re-rolls against any additional attacks by attack craft.
"A ship with EER becomes crippled when it loses more than 50% of its starting hit points."
The BBB states: "A ship which loses half its damage points is crippled.", we have just barely tweeked this and casually reading as most people do this can easily be misunderstood to be a repeating of the rules for crippling instead of a change to them. By pointing the change out to people it should eliminate that issue.
The FDT change is that each friendly ship within 15cm may re-roll misses with turrets once. I would be ok with "until the end of the turn" also tho.
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Emergency Energy Reserves: 25pt value
Advanced Engines: 25pt value
Advanced Shielding: 30pt value
Fleet Defense Turrets: 15pt value, 25pts with this if all ships within 15cm can re-roll turrets once per turn, 30 pts if all ships within 15cm can re-roll turrets period.
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: 20pt value
Augmented Weapon Relays: 30pt value
Ok based off of current prices for similar rules (or as close as I could find ;P) this is where I feel the prices would be.
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I don't think people understand what the problem is with fleet defense turrets: they are weaker the more you have. None of the other upgrades have this problem. Having AWR on all your ships does not make it redundant, but having FDT does. Not entirely, as you still get the turret boost, but not worth it's full value. You can't re-roll a re-roll and your fleet has very little ships (especially with the price hikes putting us straight back to 2010 pricing), so having this upgrade twice or more means you are suddenly getting less bang for your buck. Does no one else agree with me on this? :'( :-\
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Not really, even if you had every capitol ship with FDT they would still each gain 2 turrets making the base turrets 5-6, that neuters any bomber runs for the most part and frees up your reliance on fighters for defense even more. Thats worth at least 10pts (5 for each extra turret min.) and then they would be able to re-roll misses, worth at least another 5 pts. The other thing to look at is the range, with it being at 15cm your only going to be able to cover a small group of ships unless you bunch them close together so having multiples allows you more coverage. It is however still on the lower end of the scale points wise imo along with GSTM.
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Would vessel A with 3+2 turrets support vessel B with 3+2 turrets so vessel B can re-roll 5 turrets?
If so: that's pretty much AC killing.