Specialist Arms Forum
Specialist Games General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: adamwest on April 29, 2013, 06:01:52 AM
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Hi all
over on taccoms they are talking about some of the epic blisters saying they are no longer available on gw website. I noticed that a lot off the Warmaster blisters are saying the same however a couple are saying they are available to dispatch in 1-4 weeks? Does anybody know what's going on?
Thanks in advance!
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On what site (GB, US, Germany...?) and which blisters? I couldnt find any missing (checked like 10 random ones). The only missing are black orcs and the bone giant, but for some reason they were missing for like 1 year already.
EDIT: Actually, some stuff, like clan rats is no longer available....
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GB website. There is at least a couple missing from every army apart from the brettonians I think!
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Epic, BFG, WM, and probably rest of SG ranges are not being replaced as they run out. Get in quick if you want something.
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That sucks I just bought loads of of eBay! Looks like ill be selling them unless I can find alternative sculpts......! I emailed games workshop but they never replied!
Thanks for the answers anyhow
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I've just looked at the UK GW website and you're right. Several blisters from different ranges have vanished.
Looks like this is finally the end for warmaster (as far as GW is involved anyway).
Let the run begin - grab those units while you can! I've just stocked up on bits and bobs for my skaven and on skeleton spearmen!
Just realised... I've just placed what is likely to be my last ever order off GW now, after 30 years of being a customer. It's a shame really.....
Dave
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Looks like I missed my chance to get a Skaven army for less than ££££££. I am crushed. =-<
Everyone ready for the toy soldiers they want to be £30 a unit?
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Based on the telephone conversation Steve had with GW customer services, it's all over for GW's specialist games range (see this thread (http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24999) for the discussion), so if you want anything, not just Warmaster products, now is the time to grab it.
It is a shame, and I'm disappointed, but there is nothing surprising about this move.
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Only 100% available army is High Elves it seems. Araby looks to get a beating too. I've never had the spare cash to *justify* buying direct, really. I did hazard money on a small Epic Space Marine army 2 years ago but the castings were so poor I said I wouldn't buy full price if I could help it.
It might be all right for you golden oldies who have 10 armies laid down but it's a kick in the teeth to newbies who don't want to pay top dollar on ebay.
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All of the Specialist Games have items missing on the UK site now. Time to start praying Forgeworld can be persuaded to pick them up.
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According to all the chatter I've been reading - it isn't going to happen. When this stuff is gone, it is going to be gone forever (except for e bay).
Of course there are alternative manufacturors that you can use for proxies for most systems, so the hobby is by no means dead.
Dave
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After several years that's a good reason to finally buy some warmaster vampire counts. I just ordered 2k.
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forgeworld has apparently confirmed that they've killed their SG lines as well.
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So guys, how many K did you recently spend in GW's online store? ;)
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I've spent a couple of hundred pounds finishing off the large skaven and the tomb kings armies I've been gradually collecting. I already have enough Orcs, Chaos, Empire and Araby!
I did toy with the idea of getting a large Vampire Counts army (4K) but then realised what it would cost to buy all in one go and also the fact that they'd probably run out of certain blisters half way through the order, leaving me with an unbalanced army and no real means to complete it!
Dave
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I wanted Skaven but first thing to go was Clanrats blisters. =-<<
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It is unfortunate as they are a core choice!
Still, you could buy everything that you want and hope that clanrat eventually surface on e bay?
Empire crossbowmen have gone so that's half of the empire core gone too!
Dave
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how disappointing
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Empire crossbowmen are available in the webpage.
Empire crossbowmen have gone so that's half of the empire core gone too!
Dave
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It is confirmed in one of the other threads on this subject in the forum that ALL metals are doing the dinosaur.
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That is really bad news :(, just started collecting warmaster armies. :'(
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Blood Bowl community has been a bit "meh" at this news, as luckily we're blessed with indie companies that make figures of equal, or sometimes superior, quality, normally for cheaper, and we can get pitches without GW as well.
Still a sad day though.
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Blood Bowl community has been a bit "meh" at this news, as luckily we're blessed with indie companies that make figures of equal, or sometimes superior, quality, normally for cheaper, and we can get pitches without GW as well.
Still a sad day though.
I think that most Fantasy based games will be fine - Warmaster, Mordheim - as its generic enough to have plenty of other sources. Blood Bowl stuff, as noted has a variety of alternatives, and personally I have always been more interested in grabbing a Fantasy unit box and some plasticard and letting rip.
Necromunda, and to a certain extent Inquisitor, still have the core 40K sets available, pretty much forever. The only two games that are really going to be hit hard are Epic and BFG, and even Epic has a list of very usable proxy and substitute minis which are close enough without stepping on GW toes.
For the established player, its a pain, but its not the end of the world and it shouldnt come as a surprise to many of ut. The difficulty is going to be selling Blood Bowl to new players, especially if the rules are suddenly not made available.
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My take on Warmaster and Epic (the only SG games I play) is that for established players it is not an issue. It will however, mean that fewer and fewer numbers of 'new bloods' are likely to come on board, except in club situations where we can showcase the SG games. Long term (10 years +) it'll reduce and reduce to a tiny but hardcore fanbase.
A bit like what happened to WRG 6th and 7th edition Ancients after Warhammer Ancient Battles came out.
Dave
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Yeah, AI is pretty boned without model support as well. It's not easy to make a Thunderbolt or an Eldar Nightwing on your own.
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Empire crossbowmen have gone so that's half of the empire core gone too!
Dave
Really? not in GW england website, at least.
Only miss empire cannons and orc warriors
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On the UK website: When you click on SG games, warmaster, "show complete range" it lists all the blisters you can currently buy. Some of them have been completely 'deleted' from the website (like clanrat) while others (like empire crossbowmen) are still listed but there is no button for you to be able to add the to your cart.
The Bretonnian army and I think all of the Chaos was still all available as at this lunchtime.
Dave
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I did not go so further in the buy process, only see the pics available. Thanks for clarify.
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Necromunda, and to a certain extent Inquisitor, still have the core 40K sets available, pretty much forever. The only two games that are really going to be hit hard are Epic and BFG, and even Epic has a list of very usable proxy and substitute minis which are close enough without stepping on GW toes.
I'm not keen on the Epic proxies myself CS, but if new players turn up without a grounding in the GW universe first, then they may be more amenable to going down the proxy route.
My take on Warmaster and Epic (the only SG games I play) is that for established players it is not an issue. It will however, mean that fewer and fewer numbers of 'new bloods' are likely to come on board, except in club situations where we can showcase the SG games. Long term (10 years +) it'll reduce and reduce to a tiny but hardcore fanbase.
It has an impact on some established players too.
Take my case. I played Epic second edition for years before getting into EA somewhere around 2008/9. Converting from second edition to EA required additional purchases for my Eldar and Chaos armies, few of which I've actually made, owing to a lack of cash. The end of the line from GW means that I'm no longer going to go down that route, and I'll stick to playing second edition, and Net Epic, rather than EA.
As for Warmaster, I'd had some inclination to get into it for a while, but didn't have anyone nearby who played it, so I kept putting it off. There could be some better proxies for Empire, and Undead (my two fantasy armies) than there are for Epic (I've never looked, so I don't know), but even so, I just find GW's actions to have rather sapped my motivation to even think about branching out, despite the fact that Fantasy battle as a core game becomes less and less interesting to me, owing to its excessively complicated rules.
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Speaking from a Warmaster perspective, I suppose it’s not a big surprise. We all knew this day would come eventually. But it’s still a shame as the GW minis are of a damned good quality and, personally, I think only Copplestone and Eureka come close at 10mm. However, the key point is that there are a fair number of other manufacturers out there for people to build armies and so if we diehards keep going then so will Warmaster.
That said, I do think that shortly after the range finally gets pulled from the GW site the UK based Warmaster players should try to converge on Warhammer World for a day and just play some games as a gesture of defiance. Of course it won’t make any difference to GW policy, but why not?
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So it has come to this. :(
It really is a shame, that GW drops their best games. We can only hope that the drop, will ease GWs stance on the proxie makers. I am just afraid that this is probably the end of those games as its not going to help bringing newbies into the game.
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I guess my comment would be, when was the last time GW ran a Specialist games tourney? I realize that depending upon where you are in the world you might have access to more GW stores & gaming space than I do. I've always seen this part of the hobby as being more fan-driven anyhow, so I'd say it only dies if we let it!
There are some great alternative sources of 10mm fantasy miniatures, and I know I'd never begrudge someone putting slightly different-looking dwarves or elves on the table opposite me.
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To be honest, although it's a sad day for the SG range (I never played Epic, BFG or Warmaster, but love BB, Necro and Mordheim), I'm actually not that bothered - we have enough stuff within our "core" group to keep us going and to be able to provide for any new players that come our way, and we'll continue to promote them on our website.
Meanwhile, we've finally broken out of our GW "bubble" and embraced the excellent games from other companies, something we may not had done if GW hadn't pulled all their shenanigans over the last few years.
I know, I know, I'm an old and ornery gamer, that isn't GW's target market. But I have a son that is slap bang in GW's targets, and I've done all I can to steer him away from anything GW related.
I actually think this is good for gaming overall, just not good for SG in general.
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It's a shame really. And it's the last act in a long and sad process! Maybe I have sensed that some months ago because I already turned away and looked for other Tabletop-Loves! Not found anything yet that has the same place in my heart as Warmaster though!
Will it be of comfort for me that I think GW will not benefit by letting go of a less profitable section that I loved? I fear not.
But the message I get at our gaming club is that GW loses its dominant position for some months now! More and more guys there are playing and trying out other systems like Warmachine, Flames of War, Bolt Action and other historic games and their number has already overtaken the number of Warhammer and WH40k gamers. I don't think that (just) letting go of SG has too much to do with it - but I think the economic crises of the last years combined with the still stubborn prize politic of GW combined with the growing number of competing companies does the job at the moment.
And is "Finecast" really of that poor quality I always hear? (I don't play any GW core game since 14 years so I don't know)
My conclusion is: I would not become a GW shareholder anymore at the moment.
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I don't think GW will allow us to go and play warmaster (or any other SG) at Warhammer World after they've stopped selling the figures to be honest so going down for a big game protest would probably not work.
It's a shame but I'm not going to get emotional about it. They are a profit maximising, shareholder driven business. They seem to think (and they have all the numbers, not us) that by massively reducing the diverse range they currently carry and by concentrating on selling mainly just plastic figures for just 3 game systems they can make more money.
I agree their customer base is shrinking. Veteran players are going over wholesale to other companies. This does not appear to be impacting on their bottom line though (the only think that counts to them). They are going for the 'churn and burn' model - aimed at children who only play for around 2-4 years.
None of this invalidates the rules and figures I already own and I am a part of a large gaming group that has all the warmaster armies between us so I'm not worried.
Dave
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It's quite funny you know - Warmaster then went on to make Historical and Ancients which you can use any manufacturer for. Then it's the basis for Black Powder, for Hail Caesar and finally Blitzkrieg Commander.
The latter is what we're playing at my club and everyone is buying armies for it! Few hundred quid of rulebooks, models and terrain that is not going to GW.
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I don't think GW will allow us to go and play warmaster (or any other SG) at Warhammer World after they've stopped selling the figures to be honest so going down for a big game protest would probably not work.
It's a shame but I'm not going to get emotional about it. They are a profit maximising, shareholder driven business. They seem to think (and they have all the numbers, not us) that by massively reducing the diverse range they currently carry and by concentrating on selling mainly just plastic figures for just 3 game systems they can make more money.
I agree their customer base is shrinking. Veteran players are going over wholesale to other companies. This does not appear to be impacting on their bottom line though (the only think that counts to them). They are going for the 'churn and burn' model - aimed at children who only play for around 2-4 years.
None of this invalidates the rules and figures I already own and I am a part of a large gaming group that has all the warmaster armies between us so I'm not worried.
Dave
Well said. My rules still work (and are PDF'd!), my minis still work, and while I'd love for them to keep carrying the line, I'm neither surprised nor really offended. They're responsible to their stockholders, not protestors. Angry letters and demonstrations will annoy them, but not change the core business logic behind their decision. The think they're acting in the long-term best interest of the company. They may be wrong, but if so time will tell.
Meanwhile, I'll continue to love Warmaster. Copies of the rulebook and PDFs are easily available, and if a new friend gets into it, I can point them to Copplestone or Eureka or Tridente Bologna. No doubt GW leaving the segment will improve the bottom lines for these companies.
If you're looking for a silver lining, it's that as a community we're no longer beholden to GW to help encourage people to buy from their line. It's nice that we can point people to an independent company as a first resort. For those of us who were never fans of the Warhammer universe, we're also no longer quite so stapled to the core setting.
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That is really sad news....it was some two months ago when I first tried the WM rules on a table, and discovered how excellent game it is. I have been playing WH for some 15 years and always been tired of this "herohammer" and balance issue stuff. And I finally find a game thaht suits me perfectly and this is what happens in next two months...
I'm not afraid about old armies, like Empire, HE, Chaos, Dwarfs, Undead - there are lots of them round and you can always get them from eBay. But the "new" armies, like DE, Araby, Vampire Counts, Daemons, Brettonia, are to disappear from the face of the planet...
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I ought to clarify. My suggestion of a 'gesture of defiance' when SG goes offline was just that. We go to WHW and play some WM to show that we're not dead and gone. It's not a protest, we just do what we do and how they choose to interpret it is up to them. My guess is that it will be 'whatever ...' So, it's more of a funeral wake (ie. celebration of the life of) than a protest. And if we keep pitching up in the months and years to come to play informally, then we'll keep on celebrating the life of WM.
It will be interesting to see if we get turned away. As long as we deconflict with their big events, I don't see what complaint they can have? The only rule they seem to have is that only minis produced by GW can be used there, which is fair enough. If they won't let people play WM in the hall, will they also stop people playing BB in Bugman's?
Regarding what this all means for GW's overall strategy, I don't really have any insight on the underlying economics. But it does strike me that there are three life-stages to gamers: newbie, hobbyist, veteran. Yes, they might make lots of cash from teenage newbies but the serious hobbyists (multiple armies, playing in a club context) must also be a major revenue stream? But the club context that they progress into often relies on the veterans to provide the underlying organisational infrastructure. Yes, GW might not make much money from the veterans but they are important opinion formers and in a fickle community like gamers, you perhaps ought not alienate them? And at some stage the hobbyists become veterans themselves. It all seems very short-sighted. But I'm not one of their shareholders and so one can only spectate and ponder, I suppose.
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When we last played Warmaster at WHW (not that long ago) they seemed to be delighted and stuck a picture up on their Facebook page so I suspect that they'd be happy enough to see a game there. Last month when I was there there was a pretty large Blood Bowl tournament running. When the figures are finally gone it'll be interesting to see if this continues.
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After the order I just placed it seems that GW Aus is out of Warmaster Skaven Clanrats :'(
Do they exist anywhere else in the world still? Or is it eBay frenzy time for Skaven players?
Repulsives just disappeared as well. I didn't manage to get a last order in for them, unfortunately.
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I think you'll see a rush of units at outrageous prices on ebay over the next few months as people who bought specifically to sell try to cash in.
There's also people on this forum who have a pack or two of armies that they know they'll never collect, and now that the other stuff they needed is OOP will sell instead of trying to track all that stuff down. So don't lose heart.
On DakkaDakka, there's an thread where epic players are trading incomplete armies to one another so they can all have complete armies. Ideally, something like that will happen here so the dedicated players won't gut one another on the less widely available factions. Not that charging a price someone else will pay is bad, just as a service to the hobby. :)
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Wellspring,
Thanks for the Tridente Bologna tip-off. I'd not seen their range. How does their size compare with GW minis?
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In the catalgue there are a couple of entries with comparation pics
http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=4246.0
catalogue index
http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=4118.0
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Thanks. Very helpful. Their range certainly gives some options for WMF armies.
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Never going to happen (part 1), but if only an independent could purchase the discontinued WM master moulds and start recasting. Same goes for the OOP forgeworld WM scenery items. Pity no mould recasting possibility like at BA's Wargames Foundry (e.g. the 80s Citadel Perrys' Viking sculpts). Sad that the bottom line and IP would prevent this. Just what are GW going to do with the moulds anyway?!
Never going to happen (part 2), GW/FW could do a kickstarter campaign to recast the OOP models. I said this to a GW troll once who said they would pass my message on the GW Design Studio. Never heard anything back of course. Don't care about stretch goals really, just want to get my hands on a whole army including the now increasing OOP models at a reasonable price!
Never going to happen (part 3), combine parts 1 and 2...
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The problem of all of this, as I see it, is not the will to stop specialist. It is a physical problem. They are selling alll the gear to cast metal (to obtain space, or whatever), so if they do not have machines to cast, even if they have the moulds... there is no possiblity of figures. So kickstarter will not work. But.... I wish your troll in GW do a good work and found an alternative way to make it true.
I have to say that the will to stop specialist started 5 years ago when they removed the support to the games, and the men behind specialist eventually escape from the firma.
We have all the material (that is a lot), rules, figures bought and a great bunch of alternatives, so it depends on us to make the games survive or not.
The major problem, as empireaddicted said, is bringing new players.
This is how I see the horizont.
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We have most of the pieces in place already: the minis are widely available, third parties produce a dizzying variety of fantasy and historicals in this scale, and the rules are freely available as PDFs.
To me, the big challenge now is that the IP of the game and its rules are tied to a company that no longer supports the game but is unlikely to release the rules to the public. That is, the licensing and ownership of the IP remains an issue to future development: fan lists, errata, hard copies useable at the game table, etc. If that can be cleared up, then we could wish GW well in its future endeavors, and they can go their way and we can go ours.
I don't see that as likely.
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As long as we keep a low profile, don't directly challenge and GW IP and as long as no one tries to make a new game or start mass selling of figures outside our little band I think we're o.k. After all, if GW no longer sell any metal figures and none at 10mm scale it's not hurting them any if sculptors make new units for us warmaster fans!
3D printers could help the game to roar back, as long as people are printing for their own personal use and not trying to make money out of it.
Dave
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As long as we keep a low profile, don't directly challenge and GW IP and as long as no one tries to make a new game or start mass selling of figures outside our little band I think we're o.k. After all, if GW no longer sell any metal figures and none at 10mm scale it's not hurting them any if sculptors make new units for us warmaster fans!
To qualify this statement.... Anyone can make 10mm fantasy figures. Only GW can make 10mm fantasy figures based on their IP. Luckily, fantasy is such a pervasive concept that elves and orcs and dwarves are generic enough, and elves on horses are no different.
Its not about hurting GW or not, and it is not affected by how, or even if, GW utilise the IP that they own. I would certainly support more 10mm fantasy miniatures on the market, as long as they are not specifically based on GW IP.
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Only GW can make 10mm fantasy figures based on their IP. Luckily, fantasy is such a pervasive concept that elves and orcs and dwarves are generic enough, and elves on horses are no different.
This is the key point for me. At 10mm there's less risk of infringing on the IP inherent in GW designs, particularly with forces like the Empire, Bretonnians, Chaos etc. It shouldn't be difficult to produce something less derivative than Gamezone's 28mm range, for example. (http://gamezoneminiatures.de/)
If Specialist Games aren't sufficiently profitable for GW that's understandable, but there's nothing to stop smaller operators from producing a full range of 10mm fantasy miniatures suitable for use with Warmaster. evil_and_chaos is demonstrating that already - now we have scope to create ranges for other forces. Anyone up for making a nice Norse-specific Chaos range?
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I don't think the minis will be an issue-- 10mm existed before Warmaster, and it will exist after. The problem is the rules. Those are copyrighted by GW, and you can't create a generic version that retains the mechanics but strips out the IP, because the mechanics are part of the IP. That's the core game, and so as a group of friends carrying the torch for a defunct game system, it's not a big deal, but it puts paid on any notion of growing the community significantly.
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As long as others can still freely distribute the rules as pdf, without getting any cease and desist threats, all will be fine no?
I think the problem will be the IP regarding the 10mm WM models specific to the Warhammer world. WM Ancients and Medieval will be fine, but WM Fantasy will deteriorate by either having a profusion of proxies (e.g. lizardmen fat toads, skaven doomwheels, etc), or the full myriad of fantasy lists will just not be played as players cannot collect complete armies.
Not everyone is willing, able, or capable of customising models to match army list contents. What would be good is for each fantasy army list, identifying which manufacturers/models people like using in their stead (something that could be done in this site's catalogue index perhaps?)
Why another manufacturer could produce GW specialist models under license I do not know. Would make additional revenue to GW without any additional expense (except maybe for the lawyers!)
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Not everyone is willing, able, or capable of customising models to match army list contents. What would be good is for each fantasy army list, identifying which manufacturers/models people like using in their stead (something that could be done in this site's catalogue index perhaps?)
Of course, catalogue is for seeing the figure but also whatever related with the particular reference in terms of warmaster and also to see conversion and how different people have painted the same unit.