Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Gothmog Lord of Balrogs on May 18, 2013, 06:58:18 AM
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So I had an idea for an IN/Chaos Fleet Carrier in the form of a Grand Cruiser. Sure there is the Nemesis Fleet Carrier in the additional ships commendium, but I felt this was a very large and expensive platform, and the Jovian is just a support cruiser, not a full on fleet carrier. Plus, with 4 hardpoints, the GC is perfectly set up for this role.
I generated the basic form using the smotherman formula, but that seemed very undercosted, so I pumped it up a little, let me know what you think:
Annihilator Class Grand Cruiser
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c113/MoriartheChosen/BFG/AnnihilatorGrandCruiser.png) (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/MoriartheChosen/media/BFG/AnnihilatorGrandCruiser.png.html)
The Annihilator Class is quite possibly the earliest Imperial design of a fleet support vessel in existence. Few of these aging warships remain in service, and the few that do mostly find themselves on garrison duty, stationed at the far flung outposts of the Imperium. Given their age and typical remote posting, it comes as no surprise to fleet commands that several have gone missing and have since been sighted operating with piratical raiders and within the ranks of the Great Enemy.
On occassion however, Annihilators have been put to great use supporting explorator fleets and battlefleets alike, typically when the more common Emperor Battleships and Mars Battlecruisers are unavailable. Their vast launch bay capacity far exceeds any other known hull type, but leaves them greatly vulnerable at close range, requiring the vessels to rely on cruiser escorts for defence.
Battlefleet Agripinna has two such vessels, and both saw heavy fighting during the 13th Black Crusade. For majority of the conflict, they provided fighter cover for orbital defence platforms or ships of the line in the many fleet engagements of the war. Most famously, the two vessels, Eternity Grand and Saint Euphrati, were instrumental in the evacution of Imperial foces on Agrippina to the Naval Way Station at Aurent. The Battle of Ilthirium Belt saw the two ships, escorted only by a Dauntless Light Cruiser, the Cobra's of the 14th Destroyer Squadron and Firestorms of the Ilthirium Belt Patrol, face off against a Chaos fleet four times their size. Using the asteroid belt to their advantage, the smaller Imperial force launched wave after wave of attack craft, striking from deep within the maze of rock and ice. These tactics allowed the beleagured Imperial fleet to remain elusive to their enemies for three days and left five enemy escorts destroyed and at least one capital ship crippled. More importantly, their heroic efforts bought sufficient time for the remainder of Battlefleet Agrippina to arrive, forcing the Chaos fleet back long enough to complete the retreat from Agrippina.
Annihilator Class Grand Cruiser- 290
Type/Hits Speed Turns Shields Armour Turrets
Grand Cruiser/10 20cm 45* 3 5+ 3
Armament Range/Speed Firepower/Strength Fire Arc
Port LB Fighters: 30cm 5 squadrons -
Bombers: 20cm
(Assault Boats: 30cm)
Stbd LB Fighters: 30cm 5 squadrons -
Bombers: 20cm
(Assault Boats: 30cm)
Famous Ships: Eternity Grand, Saint Euphrati, Praetorian
Special Rules: For +10 points, the launch bays may take assault boats (as listed in the profile above). Annihilators are such rare vessels, only one may be taken in an Imperial/Chaos fleet.
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:P
Sorry for all the effort but I ain't fan of the concept. To many launch bays.
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It would be hard to use but potentially very powerfull. It just also seemed the most logical platform for a fleet carrier, and chances are ships like this would have existed during the heresy.
Concept aside, you think the point cost and/or fluff are good?
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Got to say while I'm no fan of all LB ships, they do make an interesting game. Like you say, they are hard to use and need support, but the pay off can be well worth it! I personally like to see more unconventional types ply the void. Seems OK point wise, but why +10 for AB's? The emperor gets them at +5. Or was this deliberate?
Do like what you wrote about these hanging around in asteroids and screwing over Chaos though (IN player here ;D). Kind of surprised Saint Euphraiti hasn't been used before ;)
All round, good effort
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It was intentionally +10. Sure it may be as strong as a wave that a Emperor can launch, but it can gain cover of fighters launched in the same wave, even launched to full effect, making them potentially much more effective. Should they just be +5 though, or should it be +10 and allow every LB to launch Assault Boats. I was mixed on it.
It is +5
I thought Saint Euphrati would be a nice choice. Not too surprised it wasn't taken, as the HH books were produced well after the BBB and Armada, the 2010 update being the only chance for it to appear.
I figured the first imperial saint was a logical choice for a ship so old. The ship would have been in existence long before most saints.
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How does this compare to the Styx?
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How does this compare to the Styx?
Haven't playtested.
Got to say while I'm no fan of all LB ships, they do make an interesting game. Like you say, they are hard to use and need support, but the pay off can be well worth it! I personally like to see more unconventional types ply the void. Seems OK point wise, but why +10 for AB's? The emperor gets them at +5. Or was this deliberate?
I realise I was tired and kinda off my rocker with some rules last night. Should be +5
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It has a good back story and decent stats, maybe a bit low on strength for the fluff and the number of bays. I would bump it to 6 lb per side. Due to the relative rarity and strength some sort of restriction should be implemented, maybe even make it a unique vessel (no more than one may be fielded in a fleet).
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It has a good back story and decent stats, maybe a bit low on strength for the fluff and the number of bays. I would bump it to 6 lb per side. Due to the relative rarity and strength some sort of restriction should be implemented, maybe even make it a unique vessel (no more than one may be fielded in a fleet).
Would you raise the point cost? Keep in mind the Styx is 275.
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The Styx is 275 and overpriced. BFGR has it at 260.
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The Styx is 275 and overpriced. BFGR has it at 260.
So would you go to S6 LBs on each side?
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yes
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Done.
And should it be able to launch ABs out of every bay, or stick w/ just S3 each side?
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The Styx is 275 and overpriced. BFGR has it at 260.
Err...the Styx is 260 in 2010 too.
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Whoa! Twelve bays! Copy paste error I assume. ::)
Liked the Styx at 290, found it great at 275, awesome at 260. And yes that last one is the 2010 prize. :)
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Generated a PDF for the Annihilator
Check it out
Annihilator Grand Cruiser (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61590635/Annihilator%20Grand%20Cruiser.pdf)
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Should be six bays total
Maybe eight
But not 12
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Should be six bays total
Maybe eight
But not 12
You said Yes to 6 each side. You meant 6 total.
I'll leave it at 8 then
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260 is correct for all versions of BFG, as Horizon stated the Styx was ok at 290 and is great at 260 even tho some still think its overpriced.
What? Why would a ship with 8 launch hard points have 6 bays? I could maybe see 8 from the Exorcist stats but even that's pretty low imo both for the "look" and the fluff.
Play with the ship at 12 launch and see how the price works out. I would do all launch bays with assault boats not half and half.
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260 is correct for all versions of BFG, as Horizon stated the Styx was ok at 290 and is great at 260 even tho some still think its overpriced.
What? Why would a ship with 8 launch hard points have 6 bays? I could maybe see 8 from the Exorcist stats but even that's pretty low imo both for the "look" and the fluff.
Play with the ship at 12 launch and see how the price works out. I would do all launch bays with assault boats not half and half.
Maybe meet in the Middle. 10 Bays? It would make sense because the Exorcist has 2 squadrons per side on its imperial bays while a Styx has 3 on it's chaos bays.
I really can't play test for the next few months. All my BFG is in a household goods shipment coming from Japan back to the states.
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Pots, dishes, towels, warships of the Imperium, wall art... Ya that sounds about right!
10 hits would be acceptable imo.
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Pots, dishes, towels, warships of the Imperium, wall art... Ya that sounds about right!
10 hits would be acceptable imo.
Yep!
10 would also place it at less than the Nemesis BB, which is 400 points. Though, maybe it should be 12, as the Nemesis has 2 more Hits, 1 more shield, 2 more turrets and 3 x 60 cm lances.
I will change it to allowing ABs in all bays. +10 points since it will be >S 8.
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Removed the admiral restriction and just made it a max of 1. Felt this was more consistent with the fluff.
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i quite like the idea of this ship, a true attackcraft carrier, which is something the imperials lack
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And something they should not have. ;)
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Just trying to fully utilize the diverse possibilities of the Vengeance GC
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That it is possible doesn't mean it should be done. ;)
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I dare to dream
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I wouldn't have a problem with playing against this ship. I would, however, never use it myself. Both are for the same reason - it's a pretty terrible ship.
Look at it like that: if you fail Ld, it does nothing. It's completely reliant on reloading. To make it even better - it can never brace for impact. Because if it does, it, again, does nothing. Direct some firepower at it, and it either falls apart due to not being able to brace [even with 3 shields it's easy to cripple 5+ armour unbraced vessel. One large salvo of eldar torpedos that manages hit it, for instance], or braces and is completely harmless.
Every carrier needs some normal weapons. Tau Explorer and Nemesis Fleet Carrier have normal weapons, and they're closest to pure carriers this game has.
So, in my opinion, it still needs some work, due to being too weak...
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I wouldn't have a problem with playing against this ship. I would, however, never use it myself. Both are for the same reason - it's a pretty terrible ship.
Look at it like that: if you fail Ld, it does nothing. It's completely reliant on reloading. To make it even better - it can never brace for impact. Because if it does, it, again, does nothing. Direct some firepower at it, and it either falls apart due to not being able to brace [even with 3 shields it's easy to cripple 5+ armour unbraced vessel. One large salvo of eldar torpedos that manages hit it, for instance], or braces and is completely harmless.
Every carrier needs some normal weapons. Tau Explorer and Nemesis Fleet Carrier have normal weapons, and they're closest to pure carriers this game has.
So, in my opinion, it still needs some work, due to being too weak...
You think it's too weak until you face up against it parked in high orbit behind a planet all game.
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I wouldn't have a problem with playing against this ship. I would, however, never use it myself. Both are for the same reason - it's a pretty terrible ship.
Look at it like that: if you fail Ld, it does nothing. It's completely reliant on reloading.
excellent point, maybe remove one of the launch bays and replace it with a weapons battery
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That's not the point.
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interesting, i had pretty much the same idea while assembling my magnetized vengeance class....
i think this ship works as it is (5 LB's per side), since it has that weakness with being useless when failing the RO, that downside balances the immense power of the high number of LB's IMO....
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I wouldn't have a problem with playing against this ship. I would, however, never use it myself. Both are for the same reason - it's a pretty terrible ship.
Look at it like that: if you fail Ld, it does nothing. It's completely reliant on reloading. To make it even better - it can never brace for impact. Because if it does, it, again, does nothing. Direct some firepower at it, and it either falls apart due to not being able to brace [even with 3 shields it's easy to cripple 5+ armour unbraced vessel. One large salvo of eldar torpedos that manages hit it, for instance], or braces and is completely harmless.
Every carrier needs some normal weapons. Tau Explorer and Nemesis Fleet Carrier have normal weapons, and they're closest to pure carriers this game has.
So, in my opinion, it still needs some work, due to being too weak...
You think it's too weak until you face up against it parked in high orbit behind a planet all game.
Another reason to give it some guns. It spends points in guns and sitting behind a planet, it wastes points not using them. If it's flying around, it then has some guns and fixes Khar's concern.
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With an auto +1 and a veteran captain with a Re-roll you won't be missing many reloads either. At least people cant camp planets and spam bombers till they run out like 1.0 ::)!
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It is not getting guns. That completely defeats the point behind the concept and I wouldn't have bothered making this.
It is suppossed to be difficult to use, and intended for fluffy/fun play.
One thing I can think of to mitigate this issue is a special rule or upgrade "Veteran Flight Deck Crews"- when attempting to RO roll 3d6 and use the 2 lowest dice to determine the results. This would represent the relative ease a ship fully dedicated to always handling AC would have at refitting/rearming returning craft.
But really, I'm not that is needed. As Sigoroth said, it is about how you use it. With 10 LB, you could easily keep some fighters back to defend it from inbound torpedoes/bombers and still have an effective offensive AC.wave. And as I said, it is suppossed to be for fun, fluff and a challenge.
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Give it a try then! :D
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Give it a try then! :D
Can't, all my BFG is in a household goods shipment coming from japan back to the states
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Give it a try then! :D
Can't, all my BFG is in a household goods shipment coming from japan back to the states
i'll give it a go once i'm done painting my grand cruiser (done with assembling since a few minutes ago :D ), i'll try out the 5 LB each side, if i have any experiences and results worth sharing, i'll give you a report here ;)