Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Lord Duggie The Mad on June 01, 2013, 01:37:15 AM
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'Morning gents.
A lazy Saturday morning; e-thumbing through the revisions for necron fleets, looking at all the good work and rather regretting I didn't get some more scythe class cruisers to chop up and convert.
The necrons are something of a headache for me - the significant other loves playing with them, who wouldn't? Harder than Chinese calculus, after all. In a 1,000 point game (armada lists) the usual choice is
1x Tombship
1x Scythe
1x Shroud
I tend to find killing necron vessels damn near impossible with their 2+ save and ability to slip away unnoticed. By comparison, my ships have a nasty habit of spontaneously transforming into expanding clouds of dust, often accompanied by self-satisfied cackling.
My previous encounters have led me to a strategy focusing all attention on one of their softer targets in the hope that come time to add up VP's, I've maintained some shred of dignity. Sadly, the new BFG:R fleet lists appear to have removed said table and I'm left wondering: now what?
The other fleets we have knocking around aren't so much of an issue - boarding actions. Lots and lots of boarding actions. Craftworld eldar, Chaos & the bugs can all munch their way through a necron ship in some shape or form but I'm struggling with the Imperial Navy.
Aside from upping the nova cannon count (tempting), can any of you chaps recommend fleet choices or tactics?
C'mon guys, help a (battle)brother out, glorious defeat in combat is one thing but having your ass handed to you by a girl is just plain embarrassing ;D ;)
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Take some inquisition elements to up your own boarding power?
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Hmm, interesting idea. I suppose it does sound consistent to have an Ordo Xenos with a fleet facing necrons. Doubly fun to opt for the extra targeting matrix. Wish I could stick it on my retribution battleship - I kind of regret that choice now, I keep wondering if I should have stuck with the Emperor.
Massed light cruisers would probably have the speed and maneuverability to run down necron cruisers but that seems like quite a gamble.
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If you read it like that.... but it only means the range shift. ;)
As for Necrons: the BFG:R list isn't done, so keep a wait on that.
Officially:
Pick the Shroud. Blast it to shreds, keep your ships alive. Disengage.
;D
Shoot weapon batteries first.
What is your typical IN fleet?
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Hi Horizon,
Indeed - that was the intended meaning as I inferred it; I just made the observation to highlight how it could be taken :) Hey, lecturing international students you very quickly learn how semantics can make even the most well intending statement go hideously wrong ;D
Ganging up on the shroud has been my preferred method, foiled recently by taking 3 of those pesky raiders in it's place. Raiders not netting those delicious extra points when damaged...
Typically, my usual 1000 point fleet has been alternating mixtures of:
1 Mars class battlecruiser
1 Lunar
1 Gothic
1 Dictator
swords/firestorms to make up the difference.
I have a Dominator and a Lunar with nova cannons that are awaiting painting and a recent addition of a couple of Dauntless cruisers which may displace a few of the bits above.
Needing only a single scythe to field a tombship was, in my mind, inviting trouble. 1600 points and you can get 2 scythes and 2 tombships :o. I have a second tombship incoming from GW as part of my 'panic order' and I will wager the next time I am propositioned for a game it will not end well...
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I believe we finished BFGR Necrons way back. Also, shoot them with lances first. This is the only fleet you want to do that with. If they brace your lances, your weapon batteries will have an easier time. Fracas has a blog post with some calculations.
Also, assault boats are great against Necrons and so is boarding. Notice, they don't have bonuses to boarding. It also leaves the ship as a hulk of you kill it, which benefits you for victory point reasons in original BFG.
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Thanks, afterimagedan.
True - blasting them with lances first does make them more inclined to brace; the yields to a given point of firepower change depending on the type of ship - I make the tombship indifferent:
Chance of causing damage per weapons battery shot from shooting at a Scythe with firepower:
Braced: (1/2)*(1/6) = 1/12
Not braced: (1/6)*(2/3) = 1/9
Chance of causing damage per weapons battery shot from shooting at a Tombship with firepower:
Braced: (1/2)*(1/6) = 1/12
Not braced: (1/6)*(1/2) = 1/12
Against lances, the payoff to the necron player are much greater:
Chance of causing damage per lance shot shooting at a Scythe:
Braced: (1/2)*(1/6) = 1/12
Not braced: (1/2)*(2/3) = 1/3
Chance of causing damage per lance shot shooting at a Tombship
Braced: (1/2)*(1/6) = 1/12
Not braced: (1/2)*(1/2) = 1/4
I suppose if I were targeting a scythe I might consider firepower first where the decision to brace or not becomes marginally less beneficial and hence more stressful (psychological warfare, innit?). Tombship - probably lances first to induce a brace in order to lower the counter-attack.
I have been trying to board as much as possible, as you mentioned, afterimagedan, there is no way to save against the damage and it leaves them as hulks. The problem I have is that I can't really get into boarding positions with the navy nearly as much as the other fleets.
Assault boats, eh? I thought however that necrons got their reactive hull save against Hit and Run attacks as well as repairing critical hits on a 4+. Not to question your judgment, rather just out of curiosity, how does that work?
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Thanks, afterimagedan.
True - blasting them with lances first does make them more inclined to brace; the yields to a given point of firepower change depending on the type of ship - I make the tombship indifferent:
Chance of causing damage per weapons battery shot from shooting at a Scythe with firepower:
Braced: (1/2)*(1/6) = 1/12
Not braced: (1/6)*(2/3) = 1/9
Chance of causing damage per weapons battery shot from shooting at a Tombship with firepower:
Braced: (1/2)*(1/6) = 1/12
Not braced: (1/6)*(1/2) = 1/12
Against lances, the payoff to the necron player are much greater:
Chance of causing damage per lance shot shooting at a Scythe:
Braced: (1/2)*(1/6) = 1/12
Not braced: (1/2)*(2/3) = 1/3
Chance of causing damage per lance shot shooting at a Tombship
Braced: (1/2)*(1/6) = 1/12
Not braced: (1/2)*(1/2) = 1/4
I suppose if I were targeting a scythe I might consider firepower first where the decision to brace or not becomes marginally less beneficial and hence more stressful (psychological warfare, innit?). Tombship - probably lances first to induce a brace in order to lower the counter-attack.
I have been trying to board as much as possible, as you mentioned, afterimagedan, there is no way to save against the damage and it leaves them as hulks. The problem I have is that I can't really get into boarding positions with the navy nearly as much as the other fleets.
First thing to do, is to manoeuvre into a postion to get a firing solution on at least 2 targets. Then, take a Ld test to see if you're able to split fire. If you pass this test fire your WBs first (at the target with the best firing solution). This is particularly important when you're on LO, but even when you're not and even against a Tombship, fire your WBs first.
The reason for this is that your opponent will be faced with the choice; "do I brace now and get a slightly better chance to save damage or do I wait for him to commit his lances?" If they decide to wait for you to commit then you have just gained an increase in firepower (usually) and now you can make them brace with your lances. If they decide to brace, shift your lance fire to another target. This allows you to brace 2 enemy ships with only 1 set of lances. Bargain. Doing it the other way around pretty much assures that your opponent won't attempt to brace the second ship.
When firing on the Tombship your batteries will not usually care whether or not it's braced. Unless, that is, you're locked on. That is because each locked on WB dice has a 12.5% chance (1 in 8 edit to fix stupid smiley stupidness) of damaging a braced Tombship and a 15.3% (11 in 72) chance of damaging an unbraced Tombship. So over the course of 72 locked-on shots against a TS you could reasonably expect a couple more hits if unbraced. Slight advantage, but an advantage nonetheless. Against smaller craft there is benefit in firing against an unbraced vessel even when not locked-on. It is more pronounced when locked-on though.
Ok, so, if you're able to split fire always fire WBs first, regardless of target or your LO status. However, if you fail your target priority test or if you can only bring your guns to bear on a single target, then you can fire your lances first. Your opponent knows where your fire is going, there is no doubt about it. Firing lances first will maximise your damage should they fail their BFI test. Of course, this will mean that they're highly unlikely to attempt to brace against the remaining WBs, so if your purpose is to get them to brace at all costs (ie, not near a crippled/destroyed threshold) then you can still fire your WBs first so that even if they fail their test they will attempt again versus your lances.*
*Note: some people play the "clarification" that you only get 1 attempt to brace per vessel/squadron, regardless of the different weapon types and sequential nature of the game. This is stupid and less a "clarification" than a rewriting of the rules. Not to mention that I don't believe it is ever properly played, as I believe people still allow individual brace attempts against torpedo salvoes and AC waves from the same ship, which should not be allowed if this gayification were applied to its logical conclusion.
Assault boats, eh? I thought however that necrons got their reactive hull save against Hit and Run attacks as well as repairing critical hits on a 4+. Not to question your judgment, rather just out of curiosity, how does that work?
They don't get their reactive hull save (5+, 4+, whatever) because that is considered a shield and a-boats ignore shields. They do however get their 2+ save when on BFI, because that's a brace save. This is the same ruling as for the Warp Cannon on an activated Blackstone Fortress. So the ABSF is practically useless against the race it's designed to destroy and immensely strong against the race that should have the best defence against it; it's creators, the Eldar. [Warp Cannon ignore holofields for some reason, even though they're a type of lance and HFs are meant to spoof lances, but hey, it's GW, what can you do? Who plays the official Eldar rules anyway?]
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Exactly. While lance fire first seems for a better result it is batteries first which make the necron player think. Psychological warfare. :)
And aye, versus the tombship it won't matter anyway.
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They took a dump on the BSF fluff with the EoT. Giant freaking pyramid of Eldar death that theyre scared senseless of and its not Necron??? Wtf.
On topic a second Nova will help you force braces while you close and might actually ping a hit or two.
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Sigoroth, that idea of splitting fire is positivity villainous, I love it ;D Tricks like that would probably be more effective with the use of dorsal lances since they have such a wide arc. Maybe I should bring my retribution back into the fray and see what happens.
I think a second nova cannon may make its way into my fleet in the form of a Dominator, 2 nova cannons in 1,000 points isn't too cheesy is it?
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I thought you had to declare what you are shooting with and with what. Then the target decides whether to brace or not before any dice are rolled.
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I thought you had to declare what you are shooting with and with what. Then the target decides whether to brace or not before any dice are rolled.
The wording could perhaps be a little clearer, couldn't it. We have always played it under the same mechanic as Sigoroth under the pretense that lance gunnery is only committed at the end of a ship's firing to produce maximum results.
I wonder though: under the interpretation that all weapons must be assigned targets before firing commences - and thereby allowing the opponent to decide whether to brace or not - does that imply that all firing from a ship or squadron is simultaneous?
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We play it as Sigoroth describes as well.
Pick weapon system 1, nominate target, wait for brace (or not), resolve shooting.
Pick weapon system 2, nominate (another) target, etc
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I thought you had to declare what you are shooting with and with what. Then the target decides whether to brace or not before any dice are rolled.
You don't have to declare where all your gunnery is going. There's nothing to say you do. The only time you would have to do this is if you're using the craptastic simultaneous gunnery table weaponry rule from the 2010 FAQ. BFG is a sequential game, carried out stepwise. The order of things matters (hence the reason the simultaneous fire rule sucks). If you destroy a ship with your WBs you can fire your lances at the next closest ship. If you've passed the test to split your fire you can allocate your next weapon wherever you like. You can choose what angle you're going to put your torps down after seeing the results of your direct fire gunnery too (and hence possibly avoid their premature detonation due to an exploding ship). The only caveat is that you finish one ship/squadron's fire before moving onto the next.
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Assault boats, eh? I thought however that necrons got their reactive hull save against Hit and Run attacks as well as repairing critical hits on a 4+. Not to question your judgment, rather just out of curiosity, how does that work?
They don't get their reactive hull save (5+, 4+, whatever) because that is considered a shield and a-boats ignore shields. They do however get their 2+ save when on BFI, because that's a brace save. This is the same ruling as for the Warp Cannon on an activated Blackstone Fortress. [...] [Warp Cannon ignore holofields for some reason, even though they're a type of lance and HFs are meant to spoof lances, but hey, it's GW, what can you do? Who plays the official Eldar rules anyway?]
One way to counter necrons is to make sure that the player plays by the rules, so I figured I'll ask for a clarification. ::)
I'm wondering what the 4+, 5+, and 6+ save (and the 2+ save) does or doesn't work against.
From what you're saying the 4+, 5+, and 6+ save is a shield, and so it protects against guns, most lances, and exploding ships.
Gauss Particle Whips that roll a 6 ignore shields, so would therefore ignore the save in necron vs necron battles. Tyranid Bio-Plasma and Warp Cannons are lances that ignore shields. Ordnance, boarding, ramming and fire ships all ignore shields. These therefore ignore the 4+, 5+, and 6+ saves.
The save is 6+ for Raiders, 5+ for harvesters and Scythes and 4+ for tombships. If the Necron vessel uses Brace for Impact then the save is modified to 2+
If we're interpreting "then the save is modified to 2+" as "then the Brace for Impact save is modified to 2+" (rather than "the reactive hull save is modified to 2+") then the 2+ save works against everything except for boarding.
How much of this is right?
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The Necron save counts as a "shield mechanic" only for the purposes of weapons which specifically state they ignore shield mechanics, such as Warp Cannon or GPWs that hit on a 6, etc. Boarding attacks bypass the reactive hull completely, braced or not, and H&R attacks are only saved against if braced. Bombers and torpedoes (including boarding torpedoes) are saved against normally, as are Tyranid bio-plasma shots.
Necrons certainly get their save against Fire ships when braced and they (less certainly) get it when unbraced too. This is because the mechanism by which Fire ships ignore enemy shields isn't well explained. It's just a massive explosion that goes through shields, and yet it doesn't overload those shields ... Either way, since it doesn't specifically say that it ignores shield mechanics (as opposed to just shields) and it's not a H&R attack, Necrons should get their save.
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I assume you mean bioplasma would ignore the save but not the brace.
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I assume you mean bioplasma would ignore the save but not the brace.
No. Bioplasma is saved against normally.
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I assume you mean bioplasma would ignore the save but not the brace.
No. Bioplasma is saved against normally.
That's how we've played it too. Slightly off-topic observation though: what's a bug vessel doing within 15cm of a necron ship and not getting down to the business of getting their daily intake of iron? ;D
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Space Marines blow them apart spectacularly with bombardment cannons! Maybe ally in one or two strike cruisers? Bonus: thunderhawks!
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Space Marines blow them apart spectacularly with bombardment cannons! Maybe ally in one or two strike cruisers? Bonus: thunderhawks!
Good point, I can probably squeeze one in to a smaller game. The inquisition ships have those guns too, but I will need to build one. At this stage, the only way I can envision that happening is to cannibalize one of my unpainted navy cruisers. I wonder if Games Workshop will continue production of the plastic ships...
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FAQ 2010: Reactive Hulls work exactly like a Brace but not against H&Rs and Warp Cannons. When braced, they can also brace those. I suppose the FAQ clears that up quite nicely!
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FAQ 2010: Reactive Hulls work exactly like a Brace but not against H&Rs and Warp Cannons. When braced, they can also brace those. I suppose the FAQ clears that up quite nicely!
Not quite. Reactive hulls don't offer saves vs boarding actions either. They forgot to mention that.
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They don't need to because BFI doesn't defend against boarding damage either.
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Not really relevant for a Navy fleet but having a look through the powers of Chaos I had one idea:
Grab a Slaaneshi executor class grand cruiser with that siren song thingy upgrade. Half a dozen lances with no chance to brace if your within 15cm. 'Tis an expensive upgrade path though and it kinda makes it into an HMS Priority Target. Still, muahahahaha! ;D
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Huzzah!
Thanks for the advice gentlemen. I played a 1500 point fleet engagement against the Necrons over the weekend that included my newly painted dominator and dauntless cruisers. Two nova cannons in the fleet - I didn't feel that was too cheesy given the size.
I have to admit that luck was with me through most of the game:
Both Scythe cruisers ended up with Ld 6
My first two shots with nova cannons were massive: one scythe crippled and the tombship took 3 hits
Almost half of my shots went critical
By game's end I had crippled the entire fleet and successfully boarded a shroud class light cruiser for the loss of one sword class frigate and two hits off my gothic cruiser, the Resolute.
His Imperial Majesty's Navy: 969 (if I did it right)
The Necron tombfleet: 0
Thanks all for your advice. I've since converted an inquisition ship and that is in the painting production queue - Muahahaha...
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Wooh - congratulations on the fine victory!