Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Gothmog Lord of Balrogs on June 15, 2013, 07:37:54 AM
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Continuing with the Additional Ship's Compendium 2.0 we are moning onto the Space Marine Fleet list.
See the full list of ASC ships below:
http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=5479.0
This topic is specifically for the development of the SM ships on that list for use in BFG:R. Please give feed back (or provide new/alternative profiles yourself!)
Note, even though ASC 2.0 is going to pretty much allow whatever sort of ship selection people want (since they are already unnofficial ships) it will include some basic guidelines for how the ships should be intergrated into lists. Many Space Marine vessels have further guidelines beyond this even, and any such restrictions will be in the vessel's special rules.
Where I change items, I will either note it in design notes or put the orignal in paranthesis.
I'm going to kick it off with the Venerable Battlebarges (and include the Space Wolf ones likely tomorrow, after I get a little more feed back in another thread):
Ragnarok Class Assault Battle Barge- 465
Hits: 12
Speed: 20 cm
Turns: 45*
Sheilds: 4
Armour: 6+
Turrets: 4
Weapons
Prow Bombardment Cannons: R: 30cm S: 6 Arc: L/F/R
Dorsal Bombardment Cannons: R: 30cm S: 8 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 3 squadrons Arc: -
Port Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Stbd Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Special Rules: Cannot use come to new heading. Takes the place of a Venerable Battle Barge is a Space Marine and Space Wolves fleet.
Design Notes- I think I only changed the points cost from what was in WR 13.
Vindictive Class Grand Cruiser- 325 (SPACE MARINE OR CHAOS FLEETS)
Hits: 10
Speed: 20 cm
Turns: 45*
Sheilds: 3
Armour: 5+
Turrets: 3
Weapons
Dorsal Bombardment Cannon: R: 30cm S: 4 Arc: L/F/R
Port Bombardment Cannon: R: 30cm S: 2 Arc: L
Stbd Bombardment Cannon: R: 30cm S: 2 Arc: R
Dorsal Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 1 squadron Arc: -
Port Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Stbd Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Special Rules: Space Marine Crew. Takes the place of a Venerable Battle Barge in a Space Marine fleet.
Design Notes- Based off the Iron Wolf in WR13. I changed the Lances to Bombardment Cannons to better reflect the Space Marines. The original image had 4 hardpoints with LBs, which didn't make sense with p/s lances (now BCannons), nor with only S2 squadrons per side. So the idea is the P/S LBs are the lower hard points and the upper hard points are the Dorsal LBs. Only 1 upper hard point would be LBs and the other would be BCannons (instead of all Hard Points being LBs).
Charybdis Class Grand Cruiser- 330 (305) (SPACE MARINE OR CHAOS FLEETS)
Hits: 10
Speed: 20 cm (25cm)
Turns: 45*
Shields: 3 (5)
Armour: 6+
Turrets: 3
Weapons
Port Weap Batteries- R: 45cm S: 8 (7) Arc: L
Stbd Weap Batteries- R: 45cm S: 8 (7) Arc: R
Dorsal Bombardment Cannons- R: 30cm S: 6 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Under Prow Plasma Destructor- R: 15cm S:10 Arc: F
Special Rules: Space Marine Crew. Takes the place of a Venerable Battle Barge in a Space Marine fleet.
Plasma Destructor: Always hit on a 5+. Always inflicts critical hits on a 5+. When checking for crits, plasma destructor hits receive a +1 bonus.
Design Notes- Based off the Nicor from IA vol 10. The intention is to use the Grim Dark Bits Heresy Era BB as the model for this ship. I didn't like the Prow Torpedoes on The Nicor, so I changed them to Dorsal Bombardment Cannons to better fit SM, and they make more sense with the intended model.
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Well, all of the broadsides seem really under gunned for the grand cruisers. I like the idea of tying the GDB barge to a rule set too, its a great looking model.
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Vindictive Class Grand Cruiser- 330 (SPACE MARINE OR CHAOS FLEETS)
Hits: 10
Speed: 20 cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 3
Armour: 6+
Turrets: 3
Weapons
Port LBs- Thunderhawks- Speed: 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Stbd LBs- Thunderhawks- Speed: 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Dorsal Bombardment Cannons- R: 30cm S: 6 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Under Prow Plasma Destructor- R: 15cm S:10 Arc: F
Special Rules: Space Marine Crew. Takes the place of a Venerable Battle Barge in a Space Marine fleet.
Plasma Destructor: Always hit on a 5+. Always inflicts critical hits on a 5+. When checking for crits, plasma destructor hits receive a +1 bonus.
Design notes: I really didn't like the last Vindictive, and chances are no one would model it. SO I went with this instead. Uses the GDB Heresy Era BB just like the Charybdis, but requires some slight conversion work removing/covering the WBs and adding LBs
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Well, all of the broadsides seem really under gunned for the grand cruisers. I like the idea of tying the GDB barge to a rule set too, its a great looking model.
It seems that way to me too, but I am looking at the SM BB, which only has S12 45cm WB and costs 440 pts in BFGR
SO for 110 pts less you loose (on the charybdis) 2 hits, 1 shield, 1 turret, S4 Broadsides each side, 1 squadron TH, S2 Dorsal BCannons and swap torps for the plasma destructor.
That might be a little too much to chop away. Maybe up the WB to S10?
Remember that SM launch bays are essentially suppossed to be 1/2 of the imperial equivalens (so a S2 SM LB is like an S4 IN LB) and from what I can tell BCannons are 2 x Lances (so S3 lances is S6 BCannons). As well, they both now have 6+ armour on all facings and SM crew.
On another similar note, should the Assault BB be S3 TH a side?
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The Tyranid Hive ship is called Charybdis now so maybe a different name?
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The Tyranid Hive ship is called Charybdis now so maybe a different name?
The only issue is in IA vol 10, the Nicor is said to be a Charybdis Class Grand Cruiser...
BUT maybe something else would still be better. I'll think on it and propose a few names.
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So no other feedback on the ships above? Should I up the WB S on the Charybdis (new name TBD?)
So here are some Space Wolves specific character ships
Pride of Fenris- Space Wolves Retribution Class Battleship- 610
Hits: 12
Speed: 20 cm
Turns: 45*
Sheilds: 4
Armour: 5+/6+ Front
Turrets: 4
Weapons
Port Weap Battery- R: 45cm S: 18 Arc: L
Stbd Weap Battery- R: 45cm S: 18 Arc: R
Dorsal Lance Battery- R: 60cm S: 3 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Special Rules: Cannot use come to new heading. Space Marine Crew. The Pride of Fenris takes the place of a Venerable Battlebarge in a Space Wolves fleet.
Logan Grimnar- LD 10, 4 Rerolls. Logan Grimnar’s Wolf Guard Terminators- Hit and Run Attack that may roll 3d6 and apply 2 of the results (Space Marine Player’s Choice). This is in addition to a normal Hit and Run attack.
Design Notes: EXPENSIVE. Let me break it down. 355 base. +10 points in swapping torps for TH as part of that "unique" factor = 365. +35 points SM crew = 400. +50 LD 10 = 450. +4 rerolls @ 25pts ea = 550. +50 pts Terminator Boarding Party = 600. +10 pts Wolf Guard bump (3 d6, choose 2 instead of just 2d6 apply both) = 610. Figured the best way to make it a character ship was to actually put a Character on it.
Retribution- Space Wolves Emperor Class Battleship- 430
Hits: 12
Speed: 20 cm
Turns: 45*
Sheilds: 4
Armour: 5+
Turrets: 5
Weapons
Port Weap Battery- R: 60cm S: 6 Arc: L
Stbd Weap Battery- R: 60cm S: 6 Arc: R
Dorsal Weap Battery- R: 60cm S: 5 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Weap Battery- R: 60cm S: 5 Arc: L/F/R
Port Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Stbd Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Special Rules: Cannot use come to new heading. +1 LD. Space Marine Crew.
Bran Redmaw’s Wolf Guard- The vessel may make 2 Hit and Run Attacks, both of which roll 2d6 and choose the result. The Retribution takes the place of a Venerable Battlebarge in a Space Wolves fleet.
Design notes- SO this time it is an Emperor, 365 base. +35 points SM crew = 400. +10 points 5cm speed = 410. +10 point for Honour Guard = 420. +10 points for Wolf Guard bump (Honour Guard rules apply to both hit and run attacks).
Should the speed bonus only be +5 points?
Iron Wolf- Space Wolves Vindictive Class Grand Cruiser- 350
Hits: 10
Speed: 20 cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 3
Armour: 6+
Turrets: 3
Weapons
Port LBs- Thunderhawks- Speed: 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Stbd LBs- Thunderhawks- Speed: 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Dorsal Bombardment Cannons- R: 30cm S: 6 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Under Prow Plasma Destructor- R: 15cm S:10 Arc: F
Special Rules: Space Marine Crew. Takes the place of a Venerable Battle Barge in a Space Wolves fleet.
Plasma Destructor- Always hit on a 5+. When checking for crits, plasma destructor hits receive a +1 bonus.
Egil Iron Wolf’s Wolf Guard- The vessel may make 2 Hit and Run Attacks, both of which roll 2d6 and choose the result. The Iron Wolf takes the place of a Venerable Battle Barge in a Space Wolves fleet.
Design Notes- Same as the Vindictive Class Grand Cruiser plus the same Wolf Guard rules as the Retribution.
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The Tyranid Hive ship is called Charybdis now so maybe a different name?
What about implacable?
Sorry I haven't had any new ships up. Been super busy. Tomorrow or wednesday.
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On another similar note, should the Assault BB be S3 TH a side?
i'd say yes, but maybe vote?
and by the way, why does it swap the torps for a BB cannon, its not supposed to be a ship of the first line, its more a carrier.... so why that?
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3 a side may be a little much considering the normal BB is just S12 45cm batteries, which would be equivalent to only 2 hardpoints on an IN ship. 2 Hardpoints would give S4 LBs on IN, and the rule of thumb for SM LBs is to halve the S for TH.
The reason for the switch is because it isn't a ship of the line. Bombardment Cannons are what SM use to pound the ground to dust from orbit. This is an assault BB, not a support BB. It is meant to get in close to a planet, space station or another vessel and launch waves of thunderhawks to bring the fight to the enemy.
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Dire Wolf Assault Strike Cruiser- 155
Hits: 6
Speed: 25 cm
Turns: 90*
Shields: 1
Armour: 6+
Turrets: 2
Weapons
Prow Bombardment Cannons- R: 30cm S: 3 Arc: L/F/R
Port Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 1 squadrons Arc: -
Stbd Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 1 squadrons Arc: -
Prow Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Fist of Russ- Space Wolves Mars Class Battlecruiser- 320
Hits: 8
Speed: 20 cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 2
Armour: 5+/6+ Front
Turrets: 3
Weapons
Prow Nova Cannon- R: 30-150cm S: 1 Arc: F
Port Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 1 squadrons Arc: -
Stbd Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 1 squadrons Arc: -
Port Weap Batteries- R: 45cm S: 6 Arc: L
Stbd Weap Batteries- R: 45cm S: 6 Arc: R
Dorsal Bombardment Cannons- R: 30cm S: 4 Arc: L/F/R
Special Rules: Space Marine Crew. Left Column Shift.
Design Notes- Basically a mars class with the +1 Turret and Left Col Shift (figured SM would have good tech to upgrade it with). As well, swapped the lances for bombardment cannons, just to give it more of that SM feel. Seems like something that SM would very likely do to captured vessel.
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putting the assault strike cruiser at 155 for space wolves would make it 10 points cheaper than if other SM chapters would take one (which would be 165), is that intentional?
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putting the assault strike cruiser at 155 for space wolves would make it 10 points cheaper than if other SM chapters would take one (which would be 165), is that intentional?
BFGR Strike cruisers are 145 points, so this is 10 points more expensive actually...
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putting the assault strike cruiser at 155 for space wolves would make it 10 points cheaper than if other SM chapters would take one (which would be 165), is that intentional?
BFGR Strike cruisers are 145 points, so this is 10 points more expensive actually...
not with the side TH launch bay swap which i was talking about, that was +10 points per side for regular SM iirc.... makes total 165, 10 points more than the SW assault SC....
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putting the assault strike cruiser at 155 for space wolves would make it 10 points cheaper than if other SM chapters would take one (which would be 165), is that intentional?
BFGR Strike cruisers are 145 points, so this is 10 points more expensive actually...
not with the side TH launch bay swap which i was talking about, that was +10 points per side for regular SM iirc.... makes total 165, 10 points more than the SW assault SC....
I missed the replace WBs line somehow. Crazy. It is +15 points. Which makes this way cheaper and pointless.
I'll probably just remove the Direwolf since the normal SC can fill the same role
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Sorry nothing new. Traveling right now. Will have the rest of these up by the end of the week hopefully
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The Cyrabdis's batteries do look a little under-powered, but they do scale when compared to the SMBB. Reduce to 30cm, fpw10/12?
Relentless as substitute for Chyrabdis?
All other ships look OK to me, VBB's are supposed to be a divergence from normal Imperium designs.
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So actually I am done with SM ships other than the Phalanx. Though, does anyone think there should be specific rules for the phalanx. I have never actually seen a converted phalanx and the only image to suggest what it is is the cover of the Soul Drinker book Phalanx, where it just looks like a Ramilies Star Fort.
So anyone have any thoughts? Choices I see, without further info, are:
1- We collectively come up with something
2- We make is a modified Ramilies
3- We don't bother with it
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So actually I am done with SM ships other than the Phalanx. Though, does anyone think there should be specific rules for the phalanx. I have never actually seen a converted phalanx and the only image to suggest what it is is the cover of the Soul Drinker book Phalanx, where it just looks like a Ramilies Star Fort.
So anyone have any thoughts? Choices I see, without further info, are:
1- We collectively come up with something
2- We make is a modified Ramilies
3- We don't bother with it
I'm lazy and going with number 3 for now
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Easiest is to allow it to be represented by the marine star fort.
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@AndrewChristlieb Or even better we can have it be a super star fort with a new class name, and have it and the Rapturous Rex share that same statline.
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@AndrewChristlieb Or even better we can have it be a super star fort with a new class name, and have it and the Rapturous Rex share that same statline.
For now we can't touch the raptorus rex, as IA books are off limits since they are not in the public domain like the rest of the BFG books/resources.
I pestered FW about it for a while. They hinted that maybe one day they would be available.
The FW Tau rules are a go though, since they put the originals out there for download.
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So a few ideas since the vote failed
1- rename the ragnarok class something like "primarch" class bb
2- put in a pre heresy "crusade pattern" sm sc. Basically Lighter Armour and longer ranged guns. Use this for chaos as well and the basis for character ships like the night hag.
3-gloriana class bb based off the vengeful spirit.
4-actually put effort into/design the phalanx
5- rename the charybdis something like "implacable"
6- rename tge retribution either: voidfang, nidhoggur or holmgang.
Any one know of other heresy era ship classes? That seems the best route to add vessels
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1, 5 & 6 - Agreed; I'm generally agreeing with Vaaish that ASC2.0 should focus primarily on including alternate ship templates, and worry about bringing in special snowflake ships once those are in place.
2 - sounds like a plan. To cover variations in ship styles, it might be worth it to include similar swap-around options like the existing marine strike cruisers possess. I'm not entirely sure it needs to, by default, be a lighter-armored cruiser. My suspicion is that generally they used whatever they got their hands on and I could easily see a wide range of variety in fleet and ship design (for example, I could easily see Iron Warriors or Death Guard fielding a "modern" marine SC with upgrades for extra prow bombardment cannon and port/stbd hangars as a bombardment ship alongside more traditional vessels.
Part of the difficulty lies in determining what they used and how. The general impression I have about Crusade-era fleets is that the Imperium fielded massive fleets of mass-produced warships, ranging across a number of standardized templates to match requirements from straight-up line dueling vessels to specialized planetary assault ships. Equally, my impression is that the Legions really didn't specialize in their ship selections but fielded broad-spectrum fleets containing all such examples, just having standing detachments of Legion crew and/or deployable infantry forces aboard.
3 - would this be "Vengeful Spirit - as - minimally - modified - Despoiler" or Vengeful Spirit as something else entirely (something slightly bigger than a standard battleship but not quite a huge dreadnought design, perhaps a 14-hit Planet-Killer scaled ship)?
4 - Eh, leave the Phalanx out of it, much like IMO we ought to leave the Abyss-class ships out of it (personally, I'm quite happy using the Chaos Space Hulk rules to represent a modern-day Abyss after years of wear and tear). We're talking about stuff that scales along the size & weight of fire of a Space Hulk, capable of internally docking frigates and destroyers. Might as well institute rules for Craftworlds.
Thought - would people want to make the Battlefleet Koronus "Hellbringer" class light cruiser the "Heresy-era Strike Cruiser" template? It appears (at least to me) from its RPG entry that Andy Chambers and/or the rest of the design team were essentially aiming for that...
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I guess the vengeful spirit as a despoiler. Since all those named chaos ships are Gloriana class, I need to stick close to their design. Ill figure out a way to change it up.
I think I have the hellbringer on the main asc list. I have to go back and check what it is like.
As for crusade era classes I have seen a compiled list from the books before elsewhere online I just can't find it now.
As for what should be in ASC 2.0 I am of the opinion that as many ships as we can support with the background or fluff. Obviously general templates are great and I heavily favour them, but character ships are just as viable imo, including dreadnoughts. Since these are unnoficial and we dont have to worry so much about overall game or fleet balance with them (that us left up to the players when they decide to use them or not) then I say why not go for it.
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plfrigatek't think the abyss class is big enough to internally dock frigates
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "don't include character ships," it's more that I'm suggesting you/we try using character ships that could be representative of a class or somewhat more standardized hull pattern to generate a more broadly accessible hull that could be used outside of a single fleet list for people who don't want to play just one particular fleet list.
To offer a rather lengthy set of examples to illustrate:
We have the Mars-class battlecruiser hull, of which the Imperious was refitted with a salvaged targeting matrix improving its accuracy (optional upgrade). The Divine Right was Lord Ravensburg's command ship throughout the Gothic War, and even gets a 2-page art spread in the BFG rulebook, but despite being retrofitted after extraction from a space hulk, generally fits the template for an Emperor-class battleship despite being probably a relatively unique example of the class. The Vae Victus has been through hell, literally, lost in a warp storm, originally came with prow launch bays (later replaced with torpedo tubes), has been mothballed and reconditioned half a dozen times, had an auxiliary engine room built on after her primary drives were wrecked, and we now use her as the standard example of an entire class of battleship despite her unique history.
For that matter, the original list entries for Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers repeatedly stressed that these were not strict ship templates but meant as catch-alls for a variety of custom-built and "after-market" modifications and repurposings of existing BBs by the Adeptus Astartes over the millennia, generally resulting in up-armored warships with a relatively common set of weapons load-outs tailored to the modern Astartes' specific tactical needs. I guess the suggestion there is that there are probably as many examples of Emperors, Oberons, Desecrators & Glorianas with extra grafted-on armor and rebuilt/reconditioned gun-decks as there are purpose-built codex-standard (i.e., BFG miniature-standard) battle barges floating around out there, and they're all considered battle barges with a relatively abstracted unified weapons set.
I guess what I'm getting at is, the Retribution could simply be a "Famous Ships" entry for the Battle Barge, and we could easily turn stuff like the Ragnarok into an "ancient, mostly-abandoned battle barge variant (grand cruiser hull)" and then use the Ragnarok, belonging to the Space Wolves, as a "Famous Ships" example to illustrate the class. That gets us inclusive templates that more people can use, while giving the Space Wolves their special snowflake (possibly with another sub-class defining "for +__ pts, replace X with Y, or upgrade A to B" option), instead of just getting us a one-off ship entry.
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Makes sense. I will say the ragnarok class was not sw only. I just stole the name. Makes more sense as a "famous" ship though anyways.