Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: timdp on August 12, 2013, 05:03:18 AM
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Heresy era battlebarges yet again...
This could have gone into Modelling, but the topic is considerably broader than just modelling.
I realize that the Venerable battlebarge rules are supposed to cover these older Heresy era ships (especially for game balance), but browsing through HHCV and seeing images of ships that are obviously considerably larger than the current BBs and battlebarges makes the modeler in me want to damn the torpedos and build some of these ships.
HHCV disclaimer:
Yeah, I know, artistic license, artful exaggeration, no weapons modules detail, etc., etc. Yeah, there are problems, but there is more ship info in these Heresy era paintings than is available anywhere else. The main warship painters in HHVC are Justin Norman, Richard Sandinha and David Deen. Deen's and Sandinha's paintings are pretty useless for anything except ship names, but Norman must have done at least some research before painting as most of his ships have coherent and more or less correct "in universe" designs.
Weapons modules are not detailed much in HHCV, but looking at the BFG blue book I notice that there is not much in the way of artwork that shows the different types of weapons bays either; most of the illustrations show generic weapons modules much like many of the HHCV illustrations.
Using HHVC as the primary source, I have come up with four possible configurations for these larger battleship based battlebarges. Two configurations extend the weapons bay sections of the ship to four and five bays long compared to the normal three bays long for a BB. Ships shown in these configurations are:
4 weapons bays each side
p 37 DG Indomitable Will
p 300 EC Erewhon (This ship could also be a 4 bay double stack ship with WBs over LBs)
5 weapons bays each side
p 285 EC Longinus
p 98 Malcador's Observer
The other two configurations extend the weapons bay sections AND use double stacked weapons bays to increase the number of weapons bays on the ships. This makes them similar in concept to Vengeance Class Grand Cruisers, although all of the battlebarges shown are in IN configuration using double stacked IN weapons modules. Ships shown in these configurations are:
4 weapons bays double stacked (ASC Imperator Class Dreadnought?)
p 285 WB Balthamir's Sword
p 303 DG Spectre of Death
p 247 DG Reapers' Scythe
5 weapons bays double stacked (ASC Colossus Class Imperial Dreadnought?)
p 32 Aratan In "Honor the Dead", the Aratan is described as an AdMech ship, although the lower bays looks like LBs, but its AdMech, so anything is possible... :)
p 385 DG Stalwart
Most of these battlebarges are shown in normal IN BB layout. Reading the fluff about the first build dates for the large ships, it looks like the only base ships available for Heresy era battlebarges are Emperor, Retribution, Apocalypse, the Desolator variants and the Space Marine battlebarge. Gloriana and Infernus class ships are also possibilities, but I know little about them. Three ships are depicted with with Chaos/Desolator rear hulls and Imperial battleship style prows, so the base hull must be the Desolator, but with more modern prows added:
p 37 EC Pride of the Emperor
p 32 DG Endurance
p 301 WE Conqueror
There are also a number of ship in HHVC shown using standard GW Marine battlebarge design:
p 335 EC The Agony and the Ecstasy
p 246 Unknown legion Pax Chaotica
p 348 DG The Undying
p190 UM Gauntlet of Power
Oddball:
p 35 Vengeful Spirit: 2 weapons bays double stacked; needs to be much bigger...
Have seen a number of dreadnought sized ships built here. so people are thinking in terms of double stacked weapons bays. Tyberious's magnificent Virtus Imperator is pretty much a double stacked four bay battlebarge: http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=4039.0
CommanderSamirus' Lux Aeterna is also basically a double stacked four bay battlebarge: http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=5322.msg43678#msg43678
I'm hoping the four configurations described above will provide a common framework for building Heresy era battlebarges larger than BFG battleships, but smaller than the really huge stuff like Vengeful Spirit and Conqueror that carry Titan forces.
Begin the discussion!
Tim
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An interpretation of the Aratan (5 bays, double stacked):
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/timdps/Battlefleet%20Gothic/30KAratanClassShipRev_zps80413e1d.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/timdps/media/Battlefleet%20Gothic/30KAratanClassShipRev_zps80413e1d.jpg.html)
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As I sorta commented in one of Gorlak's Vengeful Spirit advice threads, I'd read the Collected Visions Vengeful Spirit image as being 10 hardpoint ship (two rows of five), laid out like this:
[Battery] [Battery] [Lances] [Battery] [Battery]
[Battery] [Hangar] [Lances] [Hangar] [Battery]
It's not really a perfect match as the HHCV image seems to use a vertical band of lances, but it could be built out as 8 hardpoints and a narrow hardpoint strip of lance turrets in the middle. It would make for a unique ship layout, and could help explain part of the Conqueror's Ursus Claw array in "Betrayer" (unfeasibly large battleship-scaled boarding harpoon launching system, mounted in the prow, along parts of the dorsal and ventral spines, and along the sides), by replacing the midships lances with a portion of the harpoon array. That, of course, would be assuming that the Vengeful Spirit and Conqueror are both built to a standard Gloriana hull pattern that was then modified to suit Angron's fighting style. It would put the Glorianas in dreadnought range, as far as mass and displacement is concerned, but this is also the Great Crusade where over-the-top is the norm. Just a thought.
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How about something like this?
(http://theepiclounge.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/bfgxxxxxxxx.jpg)
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Interesting concept, although I like the idea more as a strike cruiser than a battle barge.
How about something like this?
(http://theepiclounge.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/bfgxxxxxxxx.jpg)
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A few more photochops of possible looks for the larger-than-battleship ships.
Grand cruiser style large battlebarges:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/timdps/Battlefleet%20Gothic/Emperordesolatorcross_zps52f0c8a7.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/timdps/media/Battlefleet%20Gothic/Emperordesolatorcross_zps52f0c8a7.jpg.html)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/timdps/Battlefleet%20Gothic/Chaos_Desolatorfinal_zpsf8a03756.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/timdps/media/Battlefleet%20Gothic/Chaos_Desolatorfinal_zpsf8a03756.jpg.html)
Emperor style with Desolator style prow
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/timdps/Battlefleet%20Gothic/EmperorBattleshipmodfinal_zpsccca7df0.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/timdps/media/Battlefleet%20Gothic/EmperorBattleshipmodfinal_zpsccca7df0.jpg.html)
Revised Aratan
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/timdps/30KAratanstretchscale2_zpsa54fc091.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/timdps/media/30KAratanstretchscale2_zpsa54fc091.jpg.html)
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Nice compositions!!!
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Interesting ship artwork on the Shadows of Treachery novel. Found the full image on the BL site.
Looks like the big ship could be a battleship with double stacked weapons bays.
Someone needs to buy the cover artwork poster so we can get a closer look at the ship...
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/timdps/Battlefleet%20Gothic/SoTcover2_zps7f3b403a.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/timdps/media/Battlefleet%20Gothic/SoTcover2_zps7f3b403a.jpg.html)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/timdps/Battlefleet%20Gothic/SoTcover1_zps76c7494b.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/timdps/media/Battlefleet%20Gothic/SoTcover1_zps76c7494b.jpg.html)
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i wouldn't bother useing the cover art for a reference
the large ship looks like a retribution armed with lance and NC, the small ship getting blasted is just a enlarged image of a firestorm
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All those authors and artists have issues.
The already standard big bfg ships get bigger and bigger it is getting hilarious. I blame black library.
;D
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Also notice how they've lifted the bottom edge of the prow, so that the nova cannon can actually run the length of the ship, rather than just being this little thing they can tack on...
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Perhaps this might inspire you...
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Perhaps this might inspire you...
Thanks for posting this. Its a very nice painting.
Seems to be missing a weapons section though, its quite a bit shorter than the model.
tim
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Have been taking a closer look at at some of the illustrations in Collected Visions and would like to throw up a few of potentially heretical thoughts for discussion.
(p37) EC Pride of the Emperor is quite obviously a grand cruiser, not a battleship. It has all of the distinctive features of a Heresy era (pre-Repulsive) grand cruiser: flattened prow, Chaos over Imperial style weapons bays separated by a secondary bridge, distinctive double main bridge, Chaos style upper rear hull and prominent bottom fin. Can't seem to find my copy of Fulgrim at the moment to skim for more descriptions of the ship.
(p32) DG Endurance is also likely a grand cruiser with most of the same list of characteristics: flattened prow, weapons bays separated by a secondary bridge, distinctive double main bridge, Chaos style upper rear hull and prominent bottom fin. The skull set into the hull fits with the info from Flight of the Eisenstein that describes Mortarian's throne room having the eye of the stone skull as an external window.
(p303) DG Spectre of Death
A closer look shows what appear to be at least two bays worth of double stacked Marine bombardment cannon weapon modules.
(p35) SoH Vengeful Spirit
Had been looking at the areas between the uprights as single weapons bays, but have realized that I had not been comprehending the sheer size of this ship. The archived thread here generally opines that the Vengeful Spirit is the largest Imperial ship that is not based on a chunk of planet (DA The Rock and IF Phalanx) or a Furious Abyss. With this thought in mind, a closer look at the Vengeful Spirit shows that each of what I thought were single weapons bays are actually five weapons batteries long and stacked up to four batteries high. Was definitely an "OMG, that thing is huge!" moment.
Did a little layout drawing of five BFG weapons batteries, a spacer and then five more weapons batteries as shown in the illustration. Together this stuff measures a bit over 8" long which translates to a real life length of 12km. Making guesses about the length of the prow and rear section of the hull makes Vengeful Spirit a bit more than 50% longer (and far more massive) than the IW Iron Blood shown earlier in this thread. BFG/RL lengths: Iron Blood: 11.375"/16.33km, Vengeful Spirit: ±17.5"/25km. Just to give an idea of the relative sizes, Iron Blood is more than double the length of an Emperor battleship and Vengeful Spirit is 3.5 times the length of a battleship.
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Pic of the big weapons bay:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/timdps/Battlefleet%20Gothic/15bays_zps5124d19d.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/timdps/media/Battlefleet%20Gothic/15bays_zps5124d19d.jpg.html)