Specialist Arms Forum

Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Rules Questions => Topic started by: Stormwind on August 23, 2013, 01:42:39 PM

Title: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on August 23, 2013, 01:42:39 PM: Hello! I thought I would confine me and my test subjects' questions to one thread as it evolves over time. I really want to get into playing Warmaster.

I find it agony to actually read the rules but they are spread out well in the old rulebook and I think I have the hang of them. I have some questions though:

1) How come High Elf Reavers don't get to shoot 360 degrees like Pistoliers and Kislev Horse Archers?

2) Is the High Elf army always hitting on 3s for shooting so powerful - that the Tournament ruleset is always preferable?

3) When I charge, do I get to change formation before I contact enemy troops?

4) If it is my turn, and I lose a combat to an opponent, does he get to advance into more of my units to attack them, even though it is my turn?

5) Can I move the same distances backward as I can going forward with a unit? It seems that I can rotate my units any way I wish rather than in Warhammer which is very strict about facings.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on August 23, 2013, 10:21:56 PM: Quote from: Stormwind on August 23, 2013, 01:42:39 PM

1) How come High Elf Reavers don't get to shoot 360 degrees like Pistoliers and Kislev Horse Archers?

The rule thing: normally units that shoot to the front has 30cm, that is the case of Reavers. Units that can shoot 360 usually has a range of 15cm. That is not always true, the best way is reading the description of each unit.

The fluff thing: as I see is that Reavers are disciplinate archers that can shoot raiding. The sense of the unit is having archer raiders that can shoot as a block following orders, so they shoot to the front. While pistoliers or Kislev Horse archers are a group of raiders, that act as a band shooting in any direction following the intuition or war expirience of each memeber, so they can shoot in any direction but the lack of organize fire makes them only effective in close combat.

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2) Is the High Elf army always hitting on 3s for shooting so powerful - that the Tournament ruleset is always preferable?

In my opinion if one player is rookie and confront a veteran is preferible that the rookie has the basic list. Tournament list is more balance with other lists.

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3) When I charge, do I get to change formation before I contact enemy troops?
Yes and this is important.
- Take the stand closest to enemy.
- Move center to center to the closest enemy unit stand (target enemy unit).
Then move the second stand of the attacking unit expanding the battle line. It means to a place touching your - first stand maximiztion the front to enemy unit.
- Then do the same third stand.

A stand can not move more than his movement. If the stand can not touch the enemy because this and they can place supporting the stands of its own unit that are fighting.

(The rule set explain it better than me... for sure)

Remember that a unit in irregular formation moves at half path, but can move full path if he is charging to enemy.

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4) If it is my turn, and I lose a combat to an opponent, does he get to advance into more of my units to attack them, even though it is my turn?

Yes, if you attack in your turn and loose the combat, the winner could claim its right to make one advance. To 20cm if he make the breakthrough (destruction of the unit in one dice roll) or 10cm if he destroy the unit in subsequent pursuits.

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5) Can I move the same distances backward as I can going forward with a unit? It seems that I can rotate my units any way I wish rather than in Warhammer which is very strict about facings.

Yes, infantry moves 20cm and orientation of the stand did not consume movement. Notice that the orientation is the stand not the whole unit. Each stand can not exceed the movement. 20cm in regular formation / 10 in irregular formation.

When the combat phase ends, all the units that had been fighting, are allowed to rearrange its orientation in the following way: Choose a stand of the unit. Change its orientation, then arrange the other two stands touching the stand that has changed its orientation.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on August 25, 2013, 12:11:34 AM: Thank you - those replies are perfect!

We just had our first game. My friend, Christoph, did not want to listen to the advice to keep it simple. I showed him the basic combat / shooting / orders moves and then he wanted to play with all the units possible on a board with terrain. =-P

I'm amazed how much shooting took part in it. His cannons, flame cannon, gyrocopter and thunderers all had a lot of force and my reavers and archers confused a lot of units! My bolt thrower got close enough to shoot his cannons after losing a stand. I scored 3 hits. Rolled for driveback: three 6s! Unit destroyed instantly!

He really enjoyed it and is so eager to play we'll play again on Monday!
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Edmund2011 on August 25, 2013, 12:22:27 AM: That's great! :)
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on August 25, 2013, 06:06:54 AM: Good for the bolt throwers crew!!
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on August 25, 2013, 12:27:28 PM: He was intimidated by my dragon/general, so I charged him in with some silver helms against his troll slayers and despite my advantage I lost. Showed him how vulnerable even a monstrous mounted general is with 5 attacks!

We barely had any combat, shooting was way more powerful with driveback than I thought it would be!
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on August 25, 2013, 12:38:24 PM: Remember that troll slayers are inmune to terror!
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on August 25, 2013, 01:17:03 PM: Not only are they immune, they got a 1+ bonus for fighting a "monster"!

I've got a question about supporting stands: They only add +1 to combat resolution, they don't add any hits to an enemy unit?

If I confused a unit in brigade formation, does that instantly remove them from the brigade?

When the cannons fire - the rules say that the bounce goes directly back from the stand that was hit. If the stand was at an angle, does the shot go back in the direction of the cannon's angle, rather than in a straight line to the rear?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Edmund2011 on August 25, 2013, 05:29:30 PM: Not only are they immune, they got a 1+ bonus for fighting a "monster"!

No, as far as I know Troll slayer gain the +1 when fighting a Monster unit, but Silver Helms are not a Monster unit (even with Dragon mount attached)

I've got a question about supporting stands: They only add +1 to combat resolution, they don't add any hits to an enemy unit?

Right, no hits are done. It reflects "supporting forces", not attacks. Remember you count supporting stands AFTER removing casualties.

If I confused a unit in brigade formation, does that instantly remove them from the brigade?

Yes, in the sense you cannot give orders to that unit, if you want to move again the brigade.

When the cannons fire - the rules say that the bounce goes directly back from the stand that was hit. If the stand was at an angle, does the shot go back in the direction of the cannon's angle, rather than in a straight line to the rear?

I should have to review the rules, as I don't have them here, but we play in the direction of the cannon's angle.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on August 26, 2013, 01:10:35 PM: Ah - but if that confused unit goes back to normal and the one next to it hasn't moved... Do they automatically brigade again or not?

OK thank you for those answers, those make sense!

The one thing we hadn't quite understood was the Make Way rules, like moving Aside or moving Backwards. I seriously can't believe how powerful shooting was for all the drivebacks. If you shoot one unit in a brigade at a slight angle, thye are automatically disrupting the battleline to a huge degree!
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Edmund2011 on August 26, 2013, 11:53:13 PM: You have think that brigades are not an agroupation by themselves. They are an agroupation only during the Command phase for the command rolls. You can declare new brigades in your Command phase as long units are interconnected.

Imagine you have four units: A, B, C, D touching all themselves.
When your Command phase starts you nominate as a brigade A, B and C, and give them an order, that fails.
Shooting, combat are resolved, and later it's your turn again. Now you nominate as a Brigade A,B and give them an order. It's succesful and move the two units towards a nearby village.
Now you decide to nominate as another brigade C and D and give them an order to Charge an enemy unit. During enemy shooting phase A,B are driven back and retreat ending their movement touching unit E (another of you units). In your next Command phase you can nominate as a brigade A, B and E, etc, etc

Hope this helps...

Ah! Regarding the shooting, marching under enemy fire is not a pleasant task for the grunts... unless you are a zealot flagellant ;D

It can be a pain in the axe, but proper making way movements can remain cohesion of the brigades (risking to be confused)
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on August 27, 2013, 10:40:32 AM: Thank you for your answer! I might upload some photos later and ask about our confusion for multiple charges into one unit. (Trollslayers and 2 warrior units versus my outnumbered elves!)

Our rematch last night went very well and we played into the evening, 8 turns! My friend is desperate to get an army and enjoys his Dwarves but wants to try Chaos or Empire.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on August 30, 2013, 07:04:37 PM: Ahhh all of a sudden I will be showing 2 new people the game tonight - and I haven't studied. x-D

Oh well, we'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Edmund2011 on August 31, 2013, 09:45:33 AM: That's really good!

I envy you for finding potential new players :( ;)

Good gaming
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on August 31, 2013, 02:53:35 PM: Ahhh we got super frustrated towards the end - trying to figure out how to move a unit of Dwarf Warriors to charge two stands of Silver Helms, with a unit of Rangers also charging into the flank.

If bases are corner to corner, they still count as being in combat and give attacks, right?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Edmund2011 on August 31, 2013, 04:17:54 PM: Quote from: Stormwind on August 31, 2013, 02:53:35 PM
If bases are corner to corner, they still count as being in combat and give attacks, right?

Right
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on August 31, 2013, 05:21:08 PM: If you charge in - the first base has to go centre to centre, right? Even if that means the other bases don't line up properly - infantry to cavalry bases?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on August 31, 2013, 08:46:12 PM: Quote from: Stormwind on August 31, 2013, 02:53:35 PM
Ahhh we got super frustrated towards the end - trying to figure out how to move a unit of Dwarf Warriors to charge two stands of Silver Helms, with a unit of Rangers also charging into the flank.

If bases are corner to corner, they still count as being in combat and give attacks, right?

yes.

try to make a scheme with paintbrush or something and let's see how is thecharge... wm could be sometimes a little messy in multiple combats
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on September 04, 2013, 08:58:42 PM: Do units ever get "to hit" bonuses to hit on things less than 4+?

My friend was telling me chariots should hit on 3s when charging.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Edmund2011 on September 04, 2013, 09:20:13 PM: Chariots gain +1 dice of attack per stand when charging in the open. That's all.

I've never seen in combat to hit less than 4+. The result to hit depends only on the terrain (open, defended, fortified)

In shooting HE bowmen hit with 3+ against targets in the open.

Quote from: Stormwind on September 04, 2013, 08:58:42 PM
Do units ever get "to hit" bonuses to hit on things less than 4+?

My friend was telling me chariots should hit on 3s when charging.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on September 04, 2013, 10:27:41 PM: Oh wow, that bonus is PER STAND? Does that follow on for pursuit advantages as well?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: forbes on September 04, 2013, 10:40:48 PM: Yes all the combat modifiers are extra attacks per stand.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on September 04, 2013, 10:58:21 PM: So that would mean that a terrifying monster would be -3 to enemy attack totals, -1 per stand?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on September 05, 2013, 10:55:30 AM: Quote from: Stormwind on September 04, 2013, 10:58:21 PM
So that would mean that a terrifying monster would be -3 to enemy attack totals, -1 per stand?
Yup, and in this case the -1 per stand is counted EVEN if not all stands are fighting it, but for unit being in combat with it
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on September 05, 2013, 10:58:09 AM: OK wow this changes completely how I thought about things - charging / initiating combat is now a lot more impressive.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Edmund2011 on September 05, 2013, 11:53:38 AM: Beware: Chariots gain +1 attack only when charging/advancing in the open, not when pursuing.

Quote from: Lex on September 05, 2013, 10:55:30 AM
Yup, and in this case the -1 per stand is counted EVEN if not all stands are fighting it, but for unit being in combat with it

Lex, I don't have the rules here, but I thought the -1 for fighting a terryfing monster applies only to stands touching the Monster/terryfing unit ???
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on September 05, 2013, 02:12:17 PM: Quote from: Stormwind on September 04, 2013, 10:27:41 PM
Oh wow, that bonus is PER STAND? Does that follow on for pursuit advantages as well?

When pursuit non of the "charge" bonus apply. It doesn't matter if it is a monster, chariot, etc...

Only apply:
+1 for pursuit (per stand)
+1 if they retreat 3cm (total +2 per stand)
+1 if they retreat 6cm (total +3 per stand)
and so on
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on September 05, 2013, 02:40:07 PM: Quote from: Edmund2011 on September 05, 2013, 11:53:38 AM
Lex, I don't have the rules here, but I thought the -1 for fighting a terryfing monster applies only to stands touching the Monster/terryfing unit ???

Not how we play it normally, I mean it is supposed to be a swirling mass of fighting beings, and it hardly make sense that there is a lot that would go:

"Owh gosh, there is a terrifying monster fighting me mates behind my back, but what do I care, as I am fighting these "stupid opponents".....

I am well know for shooting from the hip, so you may well be right.....
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Edmund2011 on September 05, 2013, 04:11:52 PM: Yes, only touching stands suffer the -1.

Quote from: Lex on September 05, 2013, 02:40:07 PM
I am well know for shooting from the hip, so you may well be right.....

LOL The only one never misses shooting from is the hip is Mr. Chuck Norris ;D
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on September 13, 2013, 02:16:01 PM: Should have posted this earlier.

What do I do in this mess of a situation. My turn as elves, being charged. I went over it with a red paintbrush just to show the outlines of the units involved.

Two units of Dwarf Warriors, one unit of Dwarf Trollsayers.

One brigade of Elves - Spearmen at the front and Archers behind them. General on a Dragon who is not part of the combat.

I think this charge went completely wrong. The ones at the front went in first, the ones flanking went last. How should they be organised?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on September 13, 2013, 02:37:32 PM: It looks like the first unit in did not center-2-center on their target? So the warriors would shift (probably to their left?) unless the terrain is impassable.

Then the TS coming in from the flank, depending on starting position would also need to center-2-center, as the second stand can not make contact I would probably have put it into support on their RIGHT flank, overrunning the general and forcing him to join a friendly unit
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on September 13, 2013, 03:42:10 PM: OK, so if the general was /forced/ into the unit - it would have to fight in the combat? That would be OK.

Now - the dwarves obviously won - but I had no idea who was allowed to pursue in the combat. Do the Elves just retreat as a single block backwards - and if so - would the flanking units have been allowd to pursue or only a single dwarven unit at the front?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on September 13, 2013, 04:02:41 PM: Quote from: Stormwind on September 13, 2013, 03:42:10 PM
OK, so if the general was /forced/ into the unit - it would have to fight in the combat? That would be OK.

Now - the dwarves obviously won - but I had no idea who was allowed to pursue in the combat. Do the Elves just retreat as a single block backwards - and if so - would the flanking units have been allowd to pursue or only a single dwarven unit at the front?

As you say, this will be messy.... retreat is away from attackers, so the back-row would be moving to its left (possibly losing stands due to impossibele terrain) and then the fron row would be moving backwards, but only those stands that actually would have room to do so, others would be destroyed. So careful consideration on what stands to remove as casualties might be in order !
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on September 13, 2013, 04:33:37 PM: OK, yes this is complicated, ha ha.

Do the flanking unit stands get attacks against both spearmen and archers, or just the spearmen?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on September 13, 2013, 09:18:51 PM: Some aspect or comments about your picture.

1- The glorious charge of dwarf warriors: As I see in the picture, two units of dwarves charge the spearmen, they have a wierd configuration than can be achived if the start the charge very far of the elves.... I mean:

When unit A of the dwarves charge they need to expand the battleline. To do so move the unit charging stand by stand with the obligation of expand the front of the enemy unit. The stand could not move more than his allowed movement. If and only if one stand has exceed its movement then could end the charge supporting his own unit mates, and then you get the configuration for the first unit of charging dwarveves in your picture. The one in the right hand of the picture I guess.

Then the unit B of dwarves can see the enemy and charge only reaching the enemy with one stand and completing the battleline.

If the first charge of dwarves warriors charge with his 3 stand withing the range of its movement, they have the obligation of fight in all the battleline of the enemies, negating the line of sight, and therefore the charge of the unit B of warriors. Anyway in this case, unit B could move to give support to unit A.

2- The charge of the troll slayers on the flank. The charge of the troll slayers should be against the archers or against the spearmen. Then center to center in the flank with the selected unit. In both cases, they accidentally come to combat with the other unit, so the troll slayers flank one stand of each unit (spearmen and archers).

3- The elves defense - The archers has the stand n shoot defence, but in this case, in my opinion, they should not benefit of it because all his front is blocked by the spearmen unit, so they do not have line of sight (LOS) to the troll slayers and therefore they can not use their reactive shoot.

4- The pursuit - Elves should retreat. Count how many enemies units are attacking in every escape direction. As two units of dwarf warriors are attacking from the front, the elves (two units as it is a multiple combat) should retreat backwards, and not going to the hills.

Anyway, in the hipotetical case that they retreat to the hills, If the hills are impasable the stands whichs "enter" in the impassable hills are removed.
If the hills are not impassable, the move to the top of the hills but they do not benefit the status of being defended, because they are being pursuit. Defended or fortified position only count when charge, not in the pursuit.

Talking about terrain, notice that cavalry or monster being charged on the top of the hill are not in defended status (they are not infantry)... but they are not in open, so they are hitted with 4+ but the attacker has not the +1 charging in open bonus.

5 -General on dragon- If enemies unit touch the general, it must go to a friendly unit within 30cm. Be aware that the elf player could choose the unit to attach the general within 30cm, it is not necessary the closer elf unit.

It is a post little bit dense, but hope it helps, :)
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on October 19, 2013, 01:26:40 PM: OK! Thanks for your answers.

One thing I am very confused about is - I can charge two different units into one enemy unit... But when I win and pursue, which unit do I pursue with? Can I pursue with both?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on October 19, 2013, 02:14:22 PM: Quote from: Stormwind on October 19, 2013, 01:26:40 PM
OK! Thanks for your answers.

One thing I am very confused about is - I can charge two different units into one enemy unit... But when I win and pursue, which unit do I pursue with? Can I pursue with both?

When there is enough room to do so..... you should handle pursuit one unit at the time. WHen you strictly follow the rules then ANY stand already in contact with the FRONT of the retreating unit follows up directly forward WITHOUT changing relative position!!!!! Remaining stand of the PURSUING unit are then placed into BASE contact with the retreating stand(s), with the note that there is NO obligation to max frontage in this case.

Depending on your actual configuration IF the second unit in the original combat CAN NOT reach the retreating unit it can not pursue.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on October 19, 2013, 03:56:46 PM: OK - so please see a point of contention for me.

2 units of goblins. One unit of my harpies. First unit charges me, maximising frontage. 2nd unit, he claims is able to charge my flank.

I told him that it would be generous to call that taking the piss.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: captPiett on October 19, 2013, 04:07:47 PM: It depends. Was the closest stand of goblins the one that ended up in the center in that picture? You charge closest stand to closest stand, then maximize frontage by placing a stand on either side of the first one. Assuming that's how he did it, the the second unit of goblins can only see the flank, and can flank your unit of harpies. This is quite common and a way that players use the order of charging units to gain advantage in the ensuing combat phase.

If the closest stand was the one on the right, however, the other two stands should be on either side, and judging from the picture, obsure this harpies altogether and preventing the second goblin unit from charging them. Clear as mud? :)
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on October 19, 2013, 04:58:03 PM: Blimey, OK - I think I'm understanding things better.

Maxmimising frontage is the key I get it.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on October 19, 2013, 05:20:11 PM: If 2 unit have line of sight and 4cm gap space then 2unit could attack harpies on the flank, because all the harpie's front is fighting.

If the second unit is the one on the top of the hill and is looking to the fight then yes, he could attach harpie's flank despite they are in the "front area".

If the second unit is the Kallistra gobbos, then no. Becuase they do not have line of sight (they are looking to the photographer) so they need an order to turn 180Âº (and I would positionte 1cm on the back of the harpies 1) and a second order to attack the flank/rear.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on October 19, 2013, 05:34:21 PM: Thanks for your reply! It's certainly a LOT more liberal about charging than Warhammer is. =-P
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Time of Madness on October 19, 2013, 05:38:51 PM: QUESTION

General question regarding model/stand counts

How do people represent the following units

Empire Cannons - The blister comes with two cannons. Is a single stand with a cannon enough to represent 1 unit? Of should I be placing 2 stands (each with a cannon on it) to represent 1 unit

Araby Elephants - Again the blister comes with 2 elephants. Is 1 elephant on a single base enough to represent a single unit of Elephants?

There are many more examples of this in the game. How is everyone representing thier units?
Time of Madness
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on October 19, 2013, 06:35:50 PM: Quote from: Time of Madness on October 19, 2013, 05:38:51 PM
QUESTION

General question regarding model/stand counts

How do people represent the following units

Empire Cannons - The blister comes with two cannons. Is a single stand with a cannon enough to represent 1 unit? Of should I be placing 2 stands (each with a cannon on it) to represent 1 unit

you will definitely want TWO stands to represent that unit !! However........ if the second stand is oriented on the short side and represented the crew preparing and mybe a gambion or two, and you indicated it proxies the second cannon, then that would be OK for me. That is similar to the use of less archers or cavalry to represent "light" troops or dispersed formations....

as long as it is pointed out up front !

Note: the HELLBLASTER is a single stand unit

Quote

Araby Elephants - Again the blister comes with 2 elephants. Is 1 elephant on a single base enough to represent a single unit of Elephants?

There are many more examples of this in the game. How is everyone representing thier units?
Time of Madness
my bretonian squires are snipped and 3 horse to a stand, sometimes 4.
my goblins are a whishy whasy mix of snapped strips, I can hnestly say no two stands look the same....
my dwarf rangers are mostly put on individually
my skaven where all put into a big bowl and units are made to represent "rank" in the Warlord clans. Wealty units end up with more, better armed and armoured troops and standards on all stands, sme even sport a jezail or ratogre to argument their strength. Lower ranked clans have less standards, lesser waepons and often make up their numbers with ratswarms and sometimes are even forced to team up with a warpflame team
[spoiler]my dark elves/slaneesh............ [/spoiler]
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on October 19, 2013, 08:37:09 PM: @Time of madness.

In the armylist there is a column name size. It gives you the information about how many stands have the unit. Normally 3 stands per unit, but there are some units which have 2 stands (as the empire cannon) or 1 stand per unit as Tusk in Dogs of war armylist or sphinx in undead army, for example.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Time of Madness on October 19, 2013, 11:49:05 PM: Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for :)

Time of Madness
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on October 31, 2013, 01:03:40 PM: When I buy a Chaos Spawn unit - do I get 2 chaos spawn or just 1 stand? Do they have to be in the same brigade? Bit confused.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: wmchaos2000 on October 31, 2013, 01:48:49 PM: 1. Two, i think.

2. No, they can move with different brigades.
The entry says "Spawn" "1"-stand, so they work as one unit each.
Every single spawn stand can move with one ordinary unit, so max two stands in a two unit brigade and so on.
Those spawn stands do not count towards the max-4-units-in-a-brigade-rule.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on October 31, 2013, 02:49:11 PM: Ah, thank you! Finally got my hands on one and eager to add it to infantry to get that TERROR bonus!
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on November 02, 2013, 08:19:11 PM: How far can a unit charge when given an order? Can a flying unit charge a metre across the board?

Can a cavalry unit charge at 30cm distance?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on November 02, 2013, 10:49:32 PM: Infantry 20cm
Cavalry 30cm
Flyers 100cm

No matter if they are in regular o irregular formation.

But it is needed Line of Sight (LOS) to the target before starting the charge. You cannot charge nothing you are no seeing when the order is given.

In the Initiative subphase the distance for charge is 20 cm no matter if they are infantry cavalry or flyers (not sure of this last sentence, need to check in the ruleset)
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on November 02, 2013, 11:02:23 PM: Ah good, wow, that makes sense.

And is it true that Flyers can ONLY be issued orders from 20cm distance?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: wmchaos2000 on November 03, 2013, 01:13:42 AM: Yes. Which makes Home Back vital. And good strategy. 8)
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on November 04, 2013, 11:56:53 AM: Quote from: jchaos79 on November 02, 2013, 10:49:32 PM
Infantry 20cm
Cavalry 30cm
Flyers 100cm

No matter if they are in regular o irregular formation.

But it is needed Line of Sight (LOS) to the target before starting the charge. You cannot charge nothing you are no seeing when the order is given.

We are getting more consensus on restricting Flyers to charge at over 60 cm.

Remember that ALL of (the points on) your stands ARE restricted to that maximum move into contact, and that ANY change in orientation of a stand IS actually movement and should be taken into consideration when making that move!

NOTE! and this is important! VERY important. There is no CHARGE order in Warmaster. The restriction on being able to charge is NOT on the moment of making that charge, but on the actual "start of moving into contact with enemy". LOS to the enemy is a consideration AT THAT POINT IN TIME, not at the moment of rolling the dice for the order!!

EG. I have a unit of archers in line in front of three units of knights in column behind them, the distance between the archers and the enemy is 21 cm. I indicate I am making a order on that brigade, roll my dice for a successful cast.

1) I move my archers of to the side (probably trying to get them to line up to shoot a supporting line of infantry if that would be my target for the knights charging in.
2) the frontal unit of each of my stands of knight now has LOS on the enemy (with 23cm! between the opposing units)
3) as the order to the brigaded unit was successful, and my unit(s) have LOS on the enemy I now fulfill the conditions to "move into contact" aka Charge!!
4) I opt to start with my middle unit, so I determine the closest enemy stand and move into center-2-center contact
((a) this is probably a direct move forward, so I move 23 cm)
((b) remember not to forget S&S should the charged unit have missile weapons
5) I pick the second stand of my charging unit. this one moves
- up 8cm (it needs to clear the adjoining units!!)
- slightly over 19 cm into corner to corner contact with the first stand placed (measure this or use Pythagoras!)
- directly forward 4 cm, into contact with the enemy

OH WAIT.......
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Alexander on November 04, 2013, 01:27:34 PM: lex, last weekend I / my opponents played it a little different, the brigade had to stick together when using an order on a brigade. When moving units out of the brigade you would need more orders. One order to move the archers to the side and another to move the brigade? That is at least how all my opponents played/said that was the way the rules were. My opponent showed it in the rulebook.

I would be more then happy if your way would be correct and I could detache a brigade with one order.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Jurisch on November 04, 2013, 02:13:18 PM: Hi Alexander,

the brigade needs to stay together when moving, except units that charge out of a brigade.

Regards,

JÃ¼rgen
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on November 04, 2013, 02:19:01 PM: if you want to SPLIT a brigade then you need to give separate orders to the "splinters"

However there is ONE, rather major exception to this rule, and that is the situation where one or more of the units in the brigade would end up in contact with the enemy when moving after a successful order.

In that situation, those units that NOT end up in contact with the enemy still need to maintain brigade integrity (iow. still touch).

In my example in the previous post that would mean that the split-off archers end up being unengaged (and could even be ordered again!) and that those Cavalry units that could NOT make it into combat........ (and there is still the open question IF they CAN!! and so, how many stands........) end up in contact with each other AND the archers.

I will see if I can find time over the next days to put up some examples.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on November 04, 2013, 02:26:53 PM: Thanks Lex, that would help!
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Alexander on November 04, 2013, 02:42:40 PM: ok so if any units in a brigade want to charge I can detache the units that are in front of it? For my understanding

OOO
OOO

CCC
HHH
KKK

When i want to charge the orcs(O) with my knights (K) I can move the crossbowmen(C) and halbediers(H) out of the way? I must form a brigade with the crossbowmen and halbediers?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on November 04, 2013, 03:42:07 PM: Quote from: Alexander on November 04, 2013, 02:42:40 PM
ok so if any units in a brigade want to charge I can detache the units that are in front of it? For my understanding

OOO
OOO

CCC
HHH
KKK

When i want to charge the orcs(O) with my knights (K) I can move the crossbowmen(C) and halbediers(H) out of the way? I must form a brigade with the crossbowmen and halbediers?

Correct. one Order to rule them all
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Dave on November 04, 2013, 08:26:46 PM: This made a huge difference in our games. Now my archers could get out of the way to let my spearmen charge all with one order. Plus they could usually swing off to the side to shoot off support.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on November 12, 2013, 05:13:54 PM: If my unit is flank charged, loses and retreats, does it scuttle sideways like a crab or is it then allowed to face the enemy for the subsequent round of combat?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: captPiett on November 12, 2013, 07:05:27 PM: Scuttles sideways like a crab, unfortunately.
the lesson here is, don't get flanked. :)
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on November 12, 2013, 07:44:47 PM: Ah OK, cool - a friend got his rules mixed up and said that the flank bonus / penalty was only on the first round of combat.

When I have a brigade that has moved to combat with an enemy... And wins... Are the only ones that move forward after that to Pursue / Advance the ones that were in direct base contact with the enemy?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: captPiett on November 12, 2013, 08:15:26 PM: Yep. If the unit was in combat and wins, it has the option to continue the combat (pursue), or advance into a new one (assuming no options to pursue and it hasn't advanced already). However, it loses its support since supporting stands by definition are not in combat.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Aquahog on November 13, 2013, 12:08:50 AM: In general, it's quite bad to get charged in Warmaster. So bad that I sometimes charge something I'd rather not simply because the prospect of that unit or brigade charging me is so much worse.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Tzigane on November 13, 2013, 12:29:10 PM: Quote from: Lex on November 04, 2013, 03:42:07 PM
Quote from: Alexander on November 04, 2013, 02:42:40 PM
ok so if any units in a brigade want to charge I can detache the units that are in front of it? For my understanding

OOO
OOO

CCC
HHH
KKK

When i want to charge the orcs(O) with my knights (K) I can move the crossbowmen(C) and halbediers(H) out of the way? I must form a brigade with the crossbowmen and halbediers?

Correct. one Order to rule them all

This doesn't make sense to me. The rule state that a brigade must always stick together as a brigade. So yes, the knights could charge, and the other units can move away, but the whole brigade must end their move touching right?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on November 13, 2013, 04:50:08 PM: No... the brigade can split of parts, as long as those parts that DID split of end up in contact with the enemy
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on November 13, 2013, 07:59:45 PM: Battle triumph is for bold warmasters! Charging is always an option, have no fear!
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on November 16, 2013, 05:04:06 PM: My friend swore blind that his Giant (Monster) could pursue my Chaos Hounds (Cavalry).

Was he right?

I don't see how a 20cm unit can chase a 30cm unit, Monsters must count the same as infantry.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Aquahog on November 16, 2013, 06:03:17 PM: Page 42: Pursuing restrictions. Only infantry is mentioned specifically not being able to pursue cavalry. (Artillery and fortified units never pursue).

If you need examples of other units with 20 cm movement that can pursue cavalry there's Dwarf Rangers and the whole Skaven list (except for the Warp Lightning Cannon, and a Screaming Bell without base contact with a pursuing infantry unit).
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on November 17, 2013, 10:55:20 AM: Monsters can pursuit cavalry, yep.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on November 22, 2013, 02:59:37 PM: Ashes on my head!

Alright - here's one. How close can I skirt to an enemy unit without engaging them in combat?

In SAGA, if you get within two inches of an enemy you HAVE to engage them in combat.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on November 22, 2013, 09:30:02 PM: I think 1 cm is the closest distance to the enemy posible.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Aquahog on November 23, 2013, 02:17:19 PM: I agree. You need four cm clearance to squeeze the short side of a base between two opposing bases.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on January 17, 2014, 12:01:08 PM: If I commit a Hero to combat with a unit - are they then still attached through the enemy's turn?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Jurisch on January 17, 2014, 12:31:31 PM: Yes
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on January 17, 2014, 01:20:38 PM: If I charge an infantry unit into another infantry unit, 3 stands flush to 3 stands and I win in combat - do I take my supporting unit stands with me from the unit that moved into support behind me?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on January 17, 2014, 02:17:13 PM: No, which why you want to charge in column from 18 cm away
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on February 08, 2014, 05:45:50 PM: 1=If an enemy touches my command stand - my stand is forced to JOIN the nearest friendly unit, right?

So that means if I'm not careful - the enemy can force a wizard to join a unit and then if they destroy it in combat immediately afterwards?

2=If I am flanked and then WIN that first round of combat - can I pursue and in pursuing turn around so I am presenting my stands in a more favourable way ie my front against the enemy's front which is retreating?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on February 08, 2014, 10:18:23 PM: Anny friendly unit in range, not th nearest
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on February 09, 2014, 10:20:05 PM: Driven back/falling back into impassable terrain.
If a unit is driven back by shooting into terrain it
canâ€™t cross, or is unable to avoid falling back into
terrain it canâ€™t cross, it will halt at the edge and is
confused on the D6 roll of a 6. See driving back
enemies in the Shooting phase section (p.27-28).
4. Driven back/falling back into enemies or combat.
A unit driven back by shooting into, or unable to
avoid falling back into, enemies or any units
engaged in combat, whether friends or foe, halts
1cm away and is automatically confused. See
driving back enemies in the Shooting phase section.

Wait a minute - so stands are never destroyed by being pushed into enemies, just confused? X.x
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on February 10, 2014, 11:26:07 AM: Nope, whishfull thinking, this is beeing driven back into, what you mean is RETREATING, which is autokills for stands that ar enot able to make it !
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on February 10, 2014, 03:03:31 PM: Oh OK! Yes - I had misread what my friend was trying to tell me, sorry.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on March 07, 2014, 10:55:23 AM: OK I just stumbled on a really major rule in the terrain section of the old rulebook:

If you are infantry standing on a hill - and cavalry tries to charge uphill at you, they lose their charge bonus. Is this how you all play it?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on March 07, 2014, 12:40:01 PM: Quote from: Stormwind on March 07, 2014, 10:55:23 AM
OK I just stumbled on a really major rule in the terrain section of the old rulebook:

If you are infantry standing on a hill - and cavalry tries to charge uphill at you, they lose their charge bonus. Is this how you all play it?

Sure is !! With the addendum. IF the cavalry start their charge on a LOWER position then the infantry (to avoid convulted chargepaths)
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on March 07, 2014, 05:52:42 PM: Is it only against infantry that they lose their charge bonus?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: jchaos79 on March 07, 2014, 08:34:45 PM: It is simply, forget the type of troop, the rule apply to all (inf, cav, monster, etc..) and says:

Charge bonus +1 in open. While a hill is not open, there is no charge bonus if you end on the hill.

Another rule regarding the hills: Infantry & artillery are the only types of troop that can benefit of being in a defend or fortified position. (it is easy to understand that chariot, giants, cavalry and machines can't hide in defensive position).

So, the crest of the hill is sometimes intended to be a defensive position if the enemy charge from the downside the hill. As the enemy need to climb the defenders can use the terrain, rocks, slopes,etc as defensive. But only infantry and artillery can do this.

In example

So in the case an enemy start the charge in flat terrain and attack to an infantry in the top of the hill. The enemy (whatever type of troop do not benefit of +1 charge because the clash in the top of the hill not in open), and the infantry is defended (only can hit 5+).
This defend status is only for the first charge, sucesive pursuit does not apply (it is intended that after the first clash the defenders are out of theri hideouts, can't use the rocks and the slope, etc...)

Another case, an enemy start the carge in flat terrain and attack to a cavalry in the top of the hill. The enemy (whatever type of troop do not benefit of +1 charge because the clash is in the top of the hill, not in open), but can hit with 4+ because de defenders are a group of riders.

hope it helps
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on March 07, 2014, 11:16:58 PM: Thank you so much! I think I'll show this to my partner in organising the tournament who is obsessed with worrying about cavalry being too powerful ha ha.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Aldhick on March 08, 2014, 07:17:30 AM: Quote from: Stormwind on March 07, 2014, 11:16:58 PM
Thank you so much! I think I'll show this to my partner in organising the tournament who is obsessed with worrying about cavalry being too powerful ha ha.
But cavalry is still too powerefull, regardless of this rule :-D
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on March 08, 2014, 02:42:20 PM: Yeah, but what he does is put all the objectives touching dense terrain.

He deliberately does this make it so that if an infantry unit is touching one - it physically cannot be attacked by cavalry. The tournament scenario is 3 of these objectives of every battlefield so he is really skewing it towards infantry.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on April 02, 2014, 08:02:35 PM: Ok got another one.

How does the banner of Fortitude work?

It says to ignore odd hits after the first round - how does that work?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Big Red on April 03, 2014, 06:19:54 AM: I am assuming that the "odd hits" are hits received that have not been enough to remove a stand of the unit which is carrying the banner - similar to the end of the shooting phase and any odd, left over hits are discarded.

So therefore, at the end of the combat round, the "odd hits" are discarded and don't carry over with the unit for any future combat and this is when the effects of the banner are removed i.e. the extra hit per stand.

For example:

A unit has 3 stands with 3 hits per stand.
It is also carrying the Banner of Fortitude.
This makes the unit have 4 hits per stand until the end of it's first combat engagement for the battle.
The unit is attacked and takes 7 hits total. Due to each stand now having 4 hits each a single stand is removed as a casualty and 3 hits remain.
There is no further combat - no pursuit or combats that result from advances etc.
The unit has lost 1 stand and has 3 remaining "odd hits". These "odd hits" are discarded and the banner becomes defunct. If the remaining "odd hits" weren't discarded but the banner becomes defunct, the hits per stand now drop back to 3 per stand and another stand would become a casualty. Hence, the removal of the "odd hits" before the effects of the banner are removed.

I hope that is the way it should work. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Stormwind on April 03, 2014, 10:06:46 AM: Ah, OK!

Got another question - several infantry units are in combat - so they can pursue one another - if they end up advancing into another unit does that unit join the combat?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on April 03, 2014, 12:08:21 PM: Units pursuing fleeing enemy sometimes engage additional units "accidental contact". This will pull the fresh unit into the "combat".

NOTE: units engaged by accidental contact are just that, pursuing units CAN NOT claim pursuit-bonus for attacks on the new target, nor are they supposed to "extend frontage" (as this contact does NOT count as charge

NOTE: units engaged by accidental contact can claim ALL their relevant bonuses!!!
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Ole on October 15, 2016, 08:51:26 PM: Quote
Move the closest evading stand in a straight line in this direction then pivot it to face in any direction that you want Finally rearrange the remaining stands into formation around the first Remaining stands cannot be placed closer to the evaded unit than the first These remaining stands can be moved further than their full pace move where required and can change their relative position in the unit as they evade.

Does that mean I can swoop form line formation to column formation or any irregular Formation?
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Lex on October 16, 2016, 10:23:52 PM: Quote from: Ole on October 15, 2016, 08:51:26 PM
Quote
Move the closest evading stand in a straight line in this direction then pivot it to face in any direction that you want Finally rearrange the remaining stands into formation around the first Remaining stands cannot be placed closer to the evaded unit than the first These remaining stands can be moved further than their full pace move where required and can change their relative position in the unit as they evade.

Does that mean I can swoop form line formation to column formation or any irregular Formation?

As part of and Evade ? Yes
Title: Re: General Question Thread
Post by: Ole on October 17, 2016, 04:01:55 AM: Quote from: Lex on October 16, 2016, 10:23:52 PM
Quote from: Ole on October 15, 2016, 08:51:26 PM
Quote
Move the closest evading stand in a straight line in this direction then pivot it to face in any direction that you want Finally rearrange the remaining stands into formation around the first Remaining stands cannot be placed closer to the evaded unit than the first These remaining stands can be moved further than their full pace move where required and can change their relative position in the unit as they evade.

Does that mean I can swoop form line formation to column formation or any irregular Formation?

As part of and Evade ? Yes

Thanks
Lex