Specialist Arms Forum
Specialist Games General Discussion => Modeling & painting => Topic started by: Islacrusez on August 26, 2013, 03:32:49 PM
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While I was thinking about the QF (quick-fire) guns I proposed for smaller ships, I pondered how they might be used if they were an option when a ship was first designed. Transports are an obvious choice, as they're a great defensive weapon. What else then? System ships would probably make use of them, again as largely defensive weapons. They're very good against smaller ships like raiders.
But finally, they'd make a great weapons for smaller system ships, like fast interceptors. Traffic cops, revenue and customs, border patrol. That sorta group. I'm sure the Imperium has someone that fills that role, and these would be the ideal ships for them.
Mind you, they'd probably pass for Space Marine ships too, but they'd need an option pack for a slightly different loadout.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/9bkn6g.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/14m9k6a.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/28wj68g.jpg)
Trying to keep away from actual GW IP, but it's not too difficult due to every GW ship being fat. The gun is a QF twin or quad barrel, which would be separate, possibly metal either stock or turned. The gun assembly is already separate from the ship, so I can easily make an attachment point and a number of gun options, for those who favour a more SM type ship.
Still undecided on the prow, aiming for something more cobra-ish than anything else in the IN fleet, but a split-prow might be doable, perhaps something with launch bays?
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Just as a note: A Gothic cruiser is GW IP. A "fat" ship is not. You can't IP a style :D
Interested to see where this is going.
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Yeah, grimdark bits had to remove a whole bunch except his cruisers which really looked like standard BFG vessels.
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Not saying fat ships are IP, but the reduced commonality of the base shape helps reduce inadvertent commonality between the finished pieces.
Anyway, I've cleaned up the inverted faces, to keep the item suitable for printing. Added a fore launch bay, finalised length and moved winglets to appropriate proportions. Lots of details added to engines and wings/winglets both fore and aft (so far nothing on aft of fore and fore of aft). Turret pedestals being added to the bridge tower.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2928v3s.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/214r09w.jpg)
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Way cool, looks like a good replacement for the Hunter.
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Engine detail:
(http://i39.tinypic.com/e00vom.jpg)
Hmm. Should I change the main engines to all be like the upper one? When I drop this back down to lifesize, I fear the smaller details of the others might be too small to be of any use (down to the 0.05mm thickness)...
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What kind of prow will you be putting on this beast?
Blind-
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The prow launch bay took care of that I imagine. Looks cool btw.
The lower engine looks better viewed like that, but with production in mind enlarging them a little might indeed be a good idea.
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The prow launch bay took care of that I imagine. Looks cool btw.
The lower engine looks better viewed like that, but with production in mind enlarging them a little might indeed be a good idea.
Oh true, i didn't read it lol just looked.
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Fwd gun moved onto a pedestal, additional details to top of wings to help with casting (increasing thickness of thin areas).
Defensive turrets being added. Not sure I like the shape, so they might get traded out for others.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2qb6idy.jpg)
Might thin the pedestal down as it is currently very tall, making the ship look very nose-heavy. Not entirely sure what to dump on the centre section... Someone mentioned a Hunter replacement; would I need to put broadside weapons on it for that? (No pictures please, stats only)
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Pedestal has been thinned, some more work done on the engines, additional turrets added to front of bridge tower (just behind the aft gun) and on the aft underside of the bridge itself.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/24yctg3.jpg)
Profile:
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2agl1zt.jpg)
Think a small ventral spine is needed to balance the ship, extending from the main hull section to at least halfway along the length.
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Doing my best to unblockify the hull, including the addition of raised bits, and turrets.
The turrets aren't actually attached to the ship as yet, and it'll actually be more work to add them as a permanent fixture than it would be to remove them. This brings me to a thought - would it be reasonable to include the main guns and the defensive turrets on a separate sprue, with instructions (for the main guns) and suggestions (for defensive turrets) on where to place them, allowing the end user to choose their configuration and style?
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2utl1xd.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2d2jf3t.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/33c3rb4.jpg)
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Looks like very cool!
I'd change the launch bays (IMHO a corvette should be too small to carry attack craft) by torpedo tubes. ;)
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Kinda breaks things in the general mechanics of BFG but could be a Prow LB 1.
I concur though that antiship missiles would be better :)
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Yeah, grimdark bits had to remove a whole bunch except his cruisers which really looked like standard BFG vessels.
The commentary I read was that he chose to remove them when asked 'cause it'd be too much of a hassel to defend them.
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My personal thoughts on the launch bay are a sort of short-range boarding action, or a single squadron of fighters/fighterbombers either for escort duties or to explain to the other guys that they're not messing about. It was originally designed to be an in-system ship.
The fwd bay hardpoint is about 300m x 100m x 100m (possibly larger for torpedoes, as it's measured from the bay doors). At least if I've done my math right! That should be big enough for a small number of small craft. Perhaps something like the Space Marine boarding craft? Apparently that's small compared to a boarding torpedo, so it should fit if torps do. In short, it's not a warship.
That said...
Someone suggested a Hunter replacement, so I'm considering the torpedoes. An insert, or a whole prow replacement might be on the cards... Either way, the shape won't change much, so I'll do it once the rest of the ship is complete, so I don't have to maintain two near-identical ships. I'll hold off on any further detailing of that interior section until then.
Any thoughts on my turret sprue idea? The smaller ball turrets should - should - be large enough to handle and glue. They should come out about 0.8mm across, which on second though actually looks preeeetty tiny.
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Right, so been doing some work on the empty dorsal area:
(http://i43.tinypic.com/jhts2v.jpg)
Work still to be done on the ventral spine. Someone has very kindly pointed out something I've been quietly avoiding - that there's a rather large vent blocking where the stand should go. Some surgery on that is still due...
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The large vent has been reduced to 20% of its original length (not visible). I've also added further details to the side... Worried I'm overdoing it though; this stuff is tiny.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2nsn07.jpg)
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Approaching completion, I think. Just some work on the prow, bridge, and aft sections, minor detailing really. Then comes the torpedo conversion.
Engines getting their various overhauls:
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2r3vx8m.jpg)
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Ok, so I'm just about calling the Corvette done! Any criticism is absolutely vital at this stage, so please point out any issues you see.
The launch bay will be replaced with torpedo tubes for a sister class, and will proxy for the Hunter.
Let the photo-shoot commence:
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2h7qwjd.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/sytifc.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2lbouqh.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/35kncyr.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/339n3hf.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2du09k5.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/10f83rt.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/sgh21d.jpg)
She currently comes in at 37mm, compared to the Cobra at 32, Sword around 45 and Firestorm at 50.
If any major issues are spotted, they'll be fixed and then a set of images with dimensions will be added.
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A really nice ship, Islacrusez.
;)
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I really should've waited for an in-depth analysis before starting the hunter proxy conversion, dropping the launch bay for some torpedoes, and the twin QFs for some real guns. A few of the small turrets have also been dropped.
Now I have to go back to the corvette, make the major changes, and then either duplicate the changes, or apply the new prow to the old hull. Or start with the cutting process now, as I can't cast it with the prow on anyway >< Ah well, you fail, you learn.
Pics of the draft prow and guns:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/158477p.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/205o92.jpg)
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I like the ship much more now. If you put them on sale, I'm sure that I'll buy a few units. ;)
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this looks great, i do love destroyers, because theres no such thing as too many small torp launching ships
TORPEDOES
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Looks really good! I wouldn't hesitate to order a few!
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What software are you using to make this model?
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Making it in Google Sketchup. The program has a few warts; especially when it thinks it's smarter than you and combines points that really should be separate. Other than that most of my complaints have been caused by user error ;)
Moving on: Rear wings have received their rearward extension, topside connectors, and top and underside detailing. Fore winglets have received detailing inboard and out. Keel has received angled piece. Not shown is a minor connector added on the keel engines (due to an unprintable intersection). Have not added chamfers to the prow, as it fouls a turret on the underside where it matches the aesthetic, and doesn't match the lines on the top.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/xpzzd.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/hv9xk4.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/344ft5d.jpg)
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Couldn't resist:
(http://i40.tinypic.com/ajnkvc.jpg)
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Really great.
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Thanks!
I think I'll trade out the ø engine vent and replace it with the one on the forward engines, after that I think I'm ready to call it, and cut it up for casting. Speaking of which, any idea which way? I'm already fairly certain I need to take the prow off... after that... no idea?
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Right, until I receive further feedback on the overall state of the ship, I can't really call it complete or progress much. As a result, I have plenty of time to think about how to cut it up for casting. And think I shall!
If I remove the two aft wings, I'll be able to easily cast most of the ship as a split mould, cutting it in half vertically. I can find a decent spot to separate the fore winglets from the hull, but am still struggling with a spot to remove the prow altogether. The engines on the back of the hull and keel are also giving me trouble. If the mould splits vertically down the middle, the engines are rather deep undercuts, especially those on the join line. The mould would likely suffer serious wear there.
So:
Remove wings at wingroot; use the edge on the engine as alignment slot.
Remove aftmost section of the hull together with the engines.
Remove keel at root, use side braces and the spine under engine section to align position.
Remove fore winglets at hull, easy alignment from what's left behind.
Cut prow off just below main gun, just behind bay doors.
These would be cast with mould split into fore and aft. While what's left, the hull and bridge, would be cast in a mould split into port and starboard sides.
This does mean that the ship comes in 7 pieces, with the guns as another 2. 9 Pieces for an escort? Ouch! Would anyone be willing to build that?
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Ended up thinking as a two-part mould (in fact was thinking that originally, except got my terms backwards).
This way, the main engines come away with the main wings as a single part. The keel has to be removed as a separate part.
That brings our pieces down to 8 (I counted wrong earlier, too!)
Still bouncing ideas on the prow, but it's not looking good.
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i think it would be possible to build
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(http://i39.tinypic.com/2ajud5w.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2011z04.jpg)
Fins added, forward vent replaced on rear wing inboard engine.
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It's a beautiful ship, nice job.
If you're really looking for things to change, I can only suggest this: there are virtually no curvy lines on it except for what I assume are the point defense turrets. Aesthetically, they would fit better into the overall design if they were boxy.
Here's the disclaimer though: I don't play BFG anymore and will be unlikely to try and acquire one of these. So, an appropriate amount of salt should be taken with the above advice. :)
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Noted, good sir! Though, there are a few other curvy shapes - the engines mainly, but also two domes atop the bridge. Really there should've been more up there, but I think they got lost. While I appreciate that the general aesthetic of the ship is a boxy one, and this is indeed mirrored by the boxy main guns, the main problem is one of scale. The turrets are about 0.8mm across, and a blocky turret would need detailing to not look like a box. As such, the turrets are spherical, because I can get away with a lack of detail then ;)
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(http://i44.tinypic.com/dfg9k5.jpg)
Funny colours for a corvette, eh? Those are the proposed component splits, draft 1.
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The prow might be difficult to assemble if it gets slightly warped I think because it is three layered.
Why not combine yellow + blue as complete prow, no orange on top. Use pin like structure in middle of body extending from prow into the hull body?
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The prow might be difficult to assemble if it gets slightly warped I think because it is three layered.
Why not combine yellow + blue as complete prow, no orange on top. Use pin like structure in middle of body extending from prow into the hull body?
My main concern is undercuts which occur between the wings, as well as some which occur further down. The prow section will have to be done as a 2-part mould, in parts fore and aft. They have to separate roughly in the middle of the wings, and thus the prow bay would be buried deep in the mould, and has its own undercuts to consider (as does the weapon platform topside).
I might be able to get away with casting the prow bay with the wings, but my thoughts are that it will be a lot easier to mould them together if they're in pieces, than it would be to cut them up if they're a single piece to begin with.
How does warping get introduced into the cast? Is it during the casting process due to the mould becoming skewed, or other factors after being removed from the mould? More to the point, can it be controlled?
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Hi, just joined in the thread so I might have missed something. I happen to be head of the moldmaking dept where I work. We make silicone rubber molds of stuff so that we can make resin castings. Is that what you are planning to do?
To answer your question. Casting distortion comes from several things. First is in a production environment you use heat or addititives or both to accellerate the cure of the material and you are trying to get the things out of the mold with a quick of a turnaround time as possible. Often they won't be quite ready so they will distort when you pull them out. The other thing that can happen is mold shift. Thats when the two flexible halves of the mold don't quite line up right. This gives you a shift in the casting like a little shelf all around the parting line. Mold spreading sometimes occurs when the mold isn't closed all the way an it makes the casting thicker in places than it should be. Lastly as a mold gets older pieces of it rip out and that leads to blobs on the casting. This is often in areas of high detail and around the parting line.
This is an escort sized ship I gather? I think that in order to get a better mold you might want to simplify some of your detail. For instance all of the holes, engines, vents and such could just be shallow intents rather than deep holes. At this scale no one is really going to notice and the rubber is going to want to rip at those points. All of your gun barrels should be backfilled. Instead of a small cylinder they would be a wall with a rounded top. If you are planning from the beginning to make a mold keeping in mind "moldability" or how well it can be molded is a good idea. No mold lasts forever but the better planned it is the longer it will last. I'd print this out at actual size and give it a look over to see exactly what you can actually see. I think that you can easily lose some undercut detail and still keep the overall look/feel of the ship.
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Welcome to the thread! Make yourself at home, we have copious amounts of tea and large amounts of stupid ;)
It is indeed an escort ship, clocking in at 37mm at this moment in time. I am also indeed intending to make silicone moulds to make resin castings. Not in very high numbers, I imagine, so less of the hurry of a production environment... Will the freedom to take my time help reduce casting problems?
For the engines, I appreciate that I'm asking for trouble, but if needed I can always fill them at a later stage and make a new mould. Most of the windows are fairly shallow, and the direction of moulding should help keep those areas intact. Only the fore wings (blue section) have undercuts at the mould line, which I expect will cause the most wear. (I may be wrong?)
For the guns... I'm really, really, hoping to get away with having barrels on the small turrets. They're as close to a cube as it goes, so I'm hoping they'll be ok. I don't want to live in a reality where I can get better details scratchbuilding than casting! This one will be tougher to fix post-print if it does cause issues, but at these proportions, will it? The domes are about 0.8mm diameter, while the barrels are in the 0.2*0.2*0.2 range if I'm not mistaken. Accurate dimensions in this thread somewhere...
The larger QF turrets are going to have barrels added during assembly, because they're the wrong sort of shape (long thin cylinder shape) to cast reliably and without damaging at some point. They'll just be ordinary styrene rod stock. The main guns with actual barrels... Possibly also going to be stock, though thicker. Not sure if those barrels would cast any better (not done the measurements for those yet).
I'd absolutely love to print this actual size and get a good look at it, and I'd probably go back in and strip out certain bits of detail, but unfortunately this is a luxury that simply isn't available to me. I don't have direct access to any 3D printer, let alone the exact type/make/model of printer that it will eventually come out of. I'm kind of willing to write the first print+cast off as an experiment; though I do hope it won't be a complete waste. If some of the details are wasted, that's fine by me. If the mould doesn't live as long as it could have, that's fine by me. If it doesn't come together when it comes out of the mould, or if the mould is destroyed after the first or even fifth, that's less cool. Do you think I can manage to meet those sorts of goals? ;D
Your professional input has been very helpful, and is much appreciated!
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I think I have enough stupid but thanks for the tea.
Neatness counts in making molds so taking your time will aid you in getting both better molds and better castings.
Your engines will be a problem. Thin fingers of rubber will flow into the negative space, grab onto all that detail inside and will tear out very quickly. Like imediately. I was calling it vents but it could be struts on the front of the wing will also be a problem. I think the material there is too thin. Resin is like tomato soup in consistancy and it is not going to want to go into that thin of an area and if it does it it tends to be brittle when its thin like that so its going to be fragile. Long and thin is not good. The gun barrels are super small and thin but they are kind of stubby so they might come out now that I look at them. Still there is a danger of them snapping of during demolding. The undercut in the wing isn't really so bad. The upside of a rubber mold is that it stretches so you can spread the mold to get slightly undercut stuff out of it.
Not sure what a QF turret is but if it is a long thin piece that stick out into space and you are OK with using metal rod than I'd use the rod. Hard to find rod thinner than 3/4 of a mil so keep that in mind.
I was suggesting you print it out 2D on a piece of paper, to the correct size. Place it on your gaming surface and look at. A lot of your detail, I think, is needlessly tiny. If I did my conversion math right,( we don't use milimeters here in the states) your gun barrels are the same thickness as two pieces of printer paper. You are not even going to be able to see them when the ships are on the table. I think you'd be good if you stuck to nothing smaller or deeper than half a millimeter. It will ease the molding process and give you a better final product. Its going to look very clunky on the screen but it will look good actual size. I honestly doubt that as the ship is now that you will be able to get a successful mold out of it but its going to be a fairly tiny mold so if it doesn't come out then you've only really lost your time and a small amount of rubber.
Well I think its a cool design and I wish you good luck with it.
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Humm. Tomato soup, or tomato purée?
I guess I'll have to experiment as to what it'll fill and what it won't, and if some casting techniques can't be applied to help the process... I'm going to have to go with the knowledge that anything that is too deep can always be made shallower.