Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: horizon on November 10, 2013, 07:40:31 PM
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By Andrew Christlieb & Horizon:
ROGUE TRADERS
<Ship Profiles>
> Forgeship
Andrew envisioned as from fanatic:
http://www.specialist-arms.com/fanatic/90btf.pdf
FORGESHIP 290PTS
(Exorcist Grand Cruiser model)
Bound together by ancient treaties and deeds of promise, the Adeptus Mechanicus have a long standing relationship with the Black Templars. Various physical assets are offered by the Mechanicus, most notably Forgeships and the fleet resources they hold. Forgeships are however, usually obsolete vessels converted solely for their role as fleet support. The weaponry afforded a Forgeship befits its function and reluctant presence in a battle, being long range and broadside only.
Forgeship:
Any suitable Grand Cruiser Model
Cruiser 10 hits
speed 20cm
turns 45
shields 3
armour 5+
turrets 3
variant one:
port weapons battery 60cm strength 10 left
starboard weapons battery 60cm strength 10 right
cannot come to new heading, less then equal (?), allows 4 more AC to be fielded by the fleet then normal.
> Lunar, Carnage, Tyrant and Murder Class per standard BFG:Revised profile.
Galleon (WR17)
Trade Galleons are the largest vesselsused by Rogue Traders. A Trade Galleonrivals an Imperial Cruiser in size and firepower. Since Rogue Traders constantlyupgrade and change their personal Trade Galleon, these vessels may become quite eccentric. Therefore it is impossible to designate a standard class of Trade Galleons, and the term Trade Galleon is usually applied to any large vessel in service of a Rogue Trader.
A large percentage of Trade Galleons are based on the Gothic or Lunar class cruiser frame. A famous example of this is the Archis Nova: originally intended to be a Lunar class cruiser, it's building was abandoned when traitors seized power in the system where it was being built. After helping Imperial forces to retake the system, Rogue Trader Emil Bosquera was awarded the vessel, which was finished to his own tastes as a Trade Galleon.
The infamous Rogue Trader Nicius Ravenclaw actually managed to buy an unfinished hull from the planetary governor of Corinth. This hull, only know as Hull 354,was thought to be cursed by local dockworkers and was never finished.
Ravenclaw towed Hull 354 out of the system with his two Lorcha’s Vexator and Sabazius. After three decades, Hull 354 returned to Corinth Fleet base as the Domitor Astra. Most of the local dockworkers still think that the ship is cursed, but so far she has performed outstandingly and has enabled Ravenclaw to claim several big prizes, including the renegade grand cruiser Doomhammer.
On the other hand there are many Trade Galleons of unique or obscure origins, suchas the Blessed Voyager, a cruiser from the Dark Age of Technology luckily discovered by Rogue Trader Julius Kaeron when he was sent off-course by a warp storm. Other famous ships of this type include the Helion's Talon, an infamous pirate vessel witnessed several times cooperating with Ork pirates, and the Andromeda, a ship noted for dealing with forbidden tech in the Gulf of Damocles.
140 points
Cruiser: 8 hits
Speed 20cm
Turns 45*
shields 2
Armour 5+
Turrets 2
Choose pattern:
* Imperator:
Port Weapon Batteries: 30cm strenght 10 L
Starboard Weapon Batteries: 30cm strenght 10 R
Prow weapon Batteries strength 30cm 4 LFR
Archis Noca:
Port Weapon Batteries: 30cm strenght 4 L
Starboard Weapon Batteries: 30cm strenght 4 R
Port lance battery 30cm strength 2 L
Starboard lance battery 30cm strength 2 R
Prow weapon Batteries strength 30cm 4 LFR
Domitor Astra:
Port Weapon Batteries: 30cm strenght 4 L
Starboard Weapon Batteries: 30cm strenght 4 R
Port Launch Bay (fighters/a-boats) strength 2
Starboard Launch Bay (fighters/a-boats) strength 2
Prow weapon Batteries strength 30cm 4 LFR
Merchantman per wr17
The Merchantman is a step down from the Trade Galleon, equal in size to an Imperial light cruiser, being a compromise between the raw firepower of a Trade Galleon and the fast and nimble Lorcha. Just like its larger cousin, Merchantmen come from a lot of different sources. Most of these vessels started their life as super heavy cargo vessels but somehow ended up in the hands of a Rogue Trader, and, due to the Rogue Traders love for modifying his vessels, most of them are made unrecognisable after a few or many refits. Merchantmen are cheaper to run and maintain than a fully fledged Trade Galleon and they attract less attention (for a Rogue Trader vessel that is), making it a less preferable prey for space pirates. That's why most of these ships ply established spacelanes, although some adventurous Rogue Traders not able to afford the larger Trade Galleons use them for exploratory purposes.
Some examples of this kind of vessel are Romulus & Remus, sister ships which cover the dangerous route between Mars and Armageddon; Itzar's Green Hide, a Merchantmen built using part of the Hulk of an Ork cruiser; the Lar'shi'fannor'o, possibly the most powerful Merchantmen ever; and the mysterious Kalandras, a Merchantmen which is said to trade between Eldar Exodite worlds and other, even darker alien species.
85 points
cruiser 6 hits
20cm speed
turns 45
shields 1
armour 5+
turrets 2
Choose pattern
Remus:
Port Weapon Batteries: 30cm strenght 6 L
Starboard Weapon Batteries: 30cm strenght 6 R
Prow weapon Batteries strength 30cm 4 LFR
Vesprugo
Port Weapon Batteries: 30cm strenght 4 L
Starboard Weapon Batteries: 30cm strenght 4 R
Port Launch Bay (fighters/a-boats) strength 1
Starboard Launch Bay (fighters/a-boats) strength 1
Prow weapon Batteries strength 30cm 4 LFR
Escorts
Xenos Vessel, whatever you want and agree with opponent. ;D
Standard pattern
50pts
escort 1 hit
25cm speed
turns 90*
shields 1
armour 5+
turrets 1
Dorsal weapons battery 30cm strenght 2 LFR
Prow Lance battery 30cm strength 1 F
Xenos escort may pick the Xenos upgrade for free.
> Recommissioned Escorts
Recomm Variant 1 ; Cobra
Recomm Variant 2 ; Firestorm
Recomm Variant 3 ; ???
Per BFG: R profiles. Or more exotic variants?
> Transports standard BFG R
-------> Q-ship change
-------> Armed freighter 2wb @30cm.
> Standard Escort standard BFG R (eg Sword)
SPECIAL RULES
Maximum Number of upgrades:
Trade Galleon: 3 upgrades, 2 exotic
Merchantman: 2 upgrades, 2 exotic
Cruisers: 2 upgrades, 1 exotic
Light Cruisers: 1 upgrade, 1 exotic
Xenos Escort Squadrons: 1 upgrade, 1 exotic
Recom Escort Squadrons: 1 upgrade, 1 exotic
Transport Squadrons: 1 upgrade, 1 exotic
You can buy a number of upgrades, as allowed in the list above, from the following list:
Short list Imperial: 15pts per upgrade
1)Improved Sensors: +1 Leadership
2)Targeting Matrix: Weapons receive a left shift
3)Secondary Reactors: +2d6 AAF / +1d6 AAF and +5cm speed?
4)Plasma Boosted Batteries: All 30cm Batteries are exchanged for 45cm Batteries
5)Heavy Hull Plating: +1 Hit point
6)Armored Prow: Prow adds 6+ armor
<<<<add more?>>>
For +20pts you may take an exotic upgrade, due their rarer availability, the result is more chance of what the Rogue Trader found then what he would like:
Exotic List
Re-roll results that are not possible on the ship
2)Alien Hull:
--> in the endphase roll a D6, on a 5+ 1 lost hit point is restored *not intended for escorts
3)Eldar Holofield Tech:
--> right shift against batteries, 6+ save against lances
4)Displacement Drive:
--> On CTNH special orders the ship may move the first 15cm of its movement in any direction except the rear arc before turning
5)Tau Tracking systems:
--> Exactly the same as the Tau Messenger has
6)Penance Shields:
--> The RT ship is immune to the detrimental effects of Marks of Slaanesh, presence of Spectral Daemon ships, and any other psychic attacks such as Necron Seplechures and Tyranid ships with the Psychic Scream evolution
7)Leaf on the Wind:
--> You may always attempt AAF, BR, or CTNH special orders, even if other ships have failed their command checks already. You may also re-roll the dice for any attempt to navigate celestial phenomena
8)Expert Troops:
--> +1 to boarding and hit & runs, -1 to hit & runs against this ship.
9)Extra Lance:
--> +1 Dorsal 30cm Lance L/F/R *not intended for escorts
10)Nekulli Energy Shields:
--> +1 Shield, Nekulli shield technology is highly efficient and any ship refitted with them will not change their base size, even if this refit brings them from 2 to 3 shields. *not intended for escorts
11)Exotic Torpedoes:
--> Add additional torpedo options to your ship. Roll D6:
1)Boarding Torpedoes
2)Kel-Dach Torpedoes (Melta Torpedoes)
3)Demiurg Torpedoes (Speed 30cm, arc Any)
4)Tau Torpedoes (Per Tau)
5)DE Leach Torpedoes (Per DE)
6)Eldar Torpedoes (Per Eldar)
12)Exotic Attack Craft:
--> Roll D6: *not intended for escorts +40 for special bombers too much/ too little? (+25 for bombers, +15 for this) I think the TH halving launch strength makes up for the price difference nicely without any additional cost)
1-2) Thunderhawk Gunships (Replace all ordinance with Thunderhawk gunships following all rules for those craft. The ships launch capacity is halved, rounding up.)
3-4) Darkstar Bombers (Replace your bombers with Darkstar bombers following all rules for those craft.) *you must have already purchased bombers!
5-6) Manta Bombers (Replace you bombers with Manta bombers following all rules for those craft.) *you must have already purchased bombers!
FLEET LIST
Rogue Trader Fleet List.
Fleet Commander:
You may include one Lord Captain in your fleet who comes with his own a personal cruiser without restriction, selected from the cruiser options in this fleet list, and improves its leadership to the value shown. You must include a Lord Captain in your fleet even if its less than 750 points.
0-1 Rogue Trader
Leadership 9.... 75pts
Leadership 8.... 50pts
The Lord Captain comes equipped with one additional refit for his personal ship included in his point cost.
0-5 Veteran Captains
You may include up to five Veteran Captains in your fleet. Each Veteran Captain must be assigned to a capital ship or escort squadron and improves its leadership by +1 with a maximum of 9. If you choose to place a Veteran Captain on an escort vessel note which ship the Bond-Captain is on as the escort squadron will lose the benefit if his ship is destroyed.
Veteran Captain (leadership +1, max of 9)... 15pts
A Veteran Captain may be given a single re-roll, which he can use on his own ship or squadron only, for +15 points. A Veteran Captain may also purchase up to one additional refit for his personal ship at the listed cost.
Capital Ships
Forgeship
You may include up to one Forgeship in your fleet if your fleet is worth over 750 points.
0-1 Forgeship...... 290pts
Grand Cruisers
You may take one Grand Cruiser per 1000 points, additionally it must be accompanied by at least one escort squadron or transport squadron consisting between 2-6 models.
Vengeance..........xxx
Avenger.............xxx
Cruisers
Each cruiser must be accompinied by one escort squadron or transport squadron consisiting of 2-6 models.
Lunar................... 180pts
Carnage............... 180pts
Tyrant.................. 175pts
Murder................. 170pts
Galleon................ 140pts
0-12 Lightcruisers
Dauntless............. 110pts
Endeavor............. 110pts
Siluria.................. 100pts
Merchantman........ 85pts
Escorts
Xenos vessel......... 50pts
Sword................... 35pts
Havoc................... ??pts
Recom escort........ 30pts
Iconoclast.............. 25pts
Transports
The fleet must include at least one squadron of escort-sized cargo ships of any type, whether or not the scenario requires transports, in a squadron of 2-6 ships. Any number of cargo ships beyond this number may be taken, organized in squadrons of 2-6 ships, containing only cargo ships. Heavy transports may also be taken, in squadrons of 1-4 Heavy transports. Heavy transports may not be taken in squadrons with escort-sized cargo ships and they may not make up more than 1/3 of the fleets total transport value.
Escort Carrier....... 60pts
Q-ship................... ??pts
Heavy Transport... 40pts
RT Cargo vessel.... 20pts
Armed Freighter.... 20pts
Cargo Transport..... 10pts
The link to the doc: [outdated!]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CNrMhFMvRF1-11nAEqPP--96ohLtdhzpqi8Km1oFWt8/edit?usp=sharing
A mixture of Warp Rift 17, The HA rules and some Rogue Trader in it.
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Added profiles.
Forgeship to be done.
Afterimagedan, can you work from this?
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This is great!
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Very good. ;)
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Added Forgeship.
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Actually vey nice ;)
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I understand the desire to take a forge-ship straight up and I like the simplistic armament, but I actually think It feels slightly high tech with its speed (No problem for something gifted to spacemarines from mechanicus)
If I was to totally ignore model issues and links to other ships, instead simply going from a stat perspective I would like it to be a grand cruiser still but with only 15 move (to keep with the theme of slow command ships, and here it can even be fixed with upgrades).
Keeping the batteries and adding a 2 capacity launch bay (seems like something needed for a rouge trader flagship)
That being said I have no idea what the model would be for such ship so I will satisfy myself by saying that you probably mean the Avenger and not the Exorcist based on the stat line since the Exorcist actually has launch bays (Even though launch bays are fitting for it as a part time cargo hauler)
I am also thorn about the upgrade list, maybe it should not be rolled to differentiate it from the mechanicus list, or maybe only allow it on the Imperial upgrades. Trouble is that the other upprgades are rolled with 2d6 so the chance to get the different ones are very varying that combined with an ability to by them all for the same cost gives of strange wibes from a design perspective do you want them to be of different rarity or not?
Personally I would go with straight up buying of imperial upgrades and with differing cost depending on usefulness (opens up for for more than 6 so you could include really minor 5 point ones a swell). Might need two point costs for each to differentiate between escorts and capitals, and it also gives you a simple way of displaying for example a 15/- price if something is unavailable for one category of ships. And then I would have the alien ones only obtainable by rolling on the table (fixed cost per roll 15/5), with careful consideration to the placement of the different upgrades on the random distribution curve (have some really nice ones on the ends) Then I would limit a ship to a certain number of upgrades of either type forcing the player into a choice of either going with safety or chance when upgrading.
Sorry if I barge in here being new and all, those were just some general thoughts take what is nice to heart and throw away the rest.
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Hi Cyk0,
On the Forgeship, yeah, it needs tweaking. I made a carbon copy from that fanatic issue.
A speed drop would be no problem to me.
The model: whatever floats one boat I say: Rogue Traders are a lot of times unique so any Grand Cruiser model could be a forgeship, even a repulsive could be modelled into it.
The upgrade list:
If someone spends points he can pick them, if not it is random. It is the same approach as the original Rogue Trader rules from SG/GW.
Could you elobarate your idea some more?
Just throw all your ideas in. ;)
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Well I will try to break down my thinking about upgrades.
First of what is the feel that would be appropriate for rouge trader fleet vessels. Personally I think they should encompass a colorful mix of old and new with individuality and some alien thrown in. What I don’t want them to feel like is a uniform mainline military feel, I also don’t want them to fell to powerful. That being said while the ships are not as powerful as a top of the line imperial battle cruiser, they might very well be augmented by wondrous ancient or alien technology that might make the same battle cruiser green with envy (or maybe with disgust due to xenos taint)
So where does that leave the ships and the upgrades. I like that the ships start out cheap and simple without bells and whistles and with short range and relatively weak weapons. That makes it feel like the basic is an armed merchant ship. So now onto the part that makes is a personalized part of a rouge trader fleet the upgrades and modifications.
You have given more upgrade slots to the rogue trader vessels than the commission basic military cruisers, the difference could even be increased a bit more since its way easier to upgrade a lover end ship with “headroom†in the space and power departments than a military ship (though the fact that they are not battle/heavy cruisers help).
I like the Idea that the upgrades are split into two parts, but I would like to make more use of that. But I think the division of choices shouldn’t limited so for example a trade galleon could get a maximum of 3 (or maybe even 4) but how the player uses those is up to him or her (especially since I intend exotics to be random only)
I feel the list of imperial upgrades should represent what a rogue trader would be able to accomplish with political connections and a big lump of money at a well equipped dock. For this reason I think that list should contain relatively mundane things (as it does) and it should also be possible to choose from. I even think it could be taken one step further removing the roll altogether (that allows you to be more free with the number of upgrades) and simply giving each upgrade two costs for example boosted plasma batteries might cost 15/5 indicating it would cost 15 for a cruiser and 5 for an escort. That pricing model gives you options to include upgrades of differing utility without wrecking the pricing and it also gives you a simple way to indicate that a upgrade is unavailable for escorts or cruisers so for example if boosted batteries for some reason should be unavailable for escorts its price would be 15/-
Exotic upgrades represent exceptional items inherited found or bartered from aliens the common thing here is that the acquisition comes down a bit to chance, and that the technology is badly understood. So I feel keeping this list entirely random is totally okay. This also allows us to utilize the non linear distribution of the results when rolling 2d6, so we can push the more strange and maybe powerful equipment to the low and high results and place some relatively mundane stuff at 6, 7 and 8. This will make a roll on the exotic table a bit of a gamble but also something that could potentially give you a very nice bonus to your ship.
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So in essence (to confirm the angle you have):
Imperial list = buyable only
Exotic list = random only
Galleon & Merchantmen: increase number of possible upgrades.
At the same point values, but without the extra +5 to pick?
So an Imperial upgrade is 15 points (or as you say +/- 5 to that), an exotic upgrade 15 points.
Correct?
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Basically yea
And you have the option of giving individual point values to the different imperial upgrades if you feel that they are not equally good, you cold also town in some more if you find any suitable ones.
And you should move around stuff in the exotic list so that the most desirable stuff are on the low and high numbers with the less desirable stuff occupying the middle around 7 (so that its hard to get the good stuff)
Also you probably don't need limit the number of exotic upgrades for ships (it just goes with the general upgrade limit)
And as I said I think the forge ship could have changed stats to be more interesting with the fleet. Slower, ad some small launch bay capacity for fluff utility for a rouge trader. Maybe lower shields to two and give it a ridiculous amount of possible upgrades.
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Well Im sure we could come up with a few more Imperial options in a pinch. +1 wing capacity (capitol ship only) is something that could be added fairly simply and would allow for the carriers to have increased launch capacity. Some options on the Forge ship seems in order too (strictly structural changes? Swapping weapons systems and such, 6 guns for 2 wing flight decks?)
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So:
Forgeship:
FORGESHIP 300PTS
Any suitable Grand Cruiser Model
Bound together by ancient treaties and deeds of promise, the Adeptus Mechanicus have a long standing relationship with the Black Templars. Various physical assets are offered by the Mechanicus, most notably Forgeships and the fleet resources they hold. Forgeships are however, usually obsolete vessels converted solely for their role as fleet support. The weaponry afforded a Forgeship befits its function and reluctant presence in a battle, being long range and broadside only.
Cruiser 10 hits
speed 20cm
turns 45
shields 3
armour 5+
turrets 3
variant one:
port weapons battery 60cm strength 10 left
starboard weapons battery 60cm strength 10 right
variant two:
port weapons battery 60cm strength 6 left
starboard weapons battery 60cm strength 6 right
port launch bay strength 2
starboard launch bay strength 2
To add:
+5 Imperial Upgrades
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Yea that would work, Personally I would make it cheaper and drop shields by 5 and maybe even one shield... The idea being that the user should use the upgrade tables to bring it on par with the opposition (and possibly to make it keep up with its own fleet)
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Hmm, I think the speed at 20cm is okay-ish. If it drops to 15cm, the +5cm upgrade will be such a mandatory choice to most it won't be special anymore. I think so.
Shields to 2 is fine.
pricing ~270 ?
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Yea you might be right about the speed upgrade becoming mandatory... Which is a bit weird since the net result would be that it would be like the rest anyway but with higher AAF.
One thing that could be made to make the grand cruiser a bit special is to allow it one free picked upgrade even from the exotic table (though I might just be making things overly complicated) but that would at-least allow the player to pick up 3 shields at the expense of getting something else interesting.
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I kind of feel that the Forge ship is twisting a little away from its intended purpose. I could see it having an upgrade or two as options and different weapons layouts are fine but this should stay largely something that should not be a primary choice. These are fine for a support ship but the real stars should be the cruisers and the trade ships (imo). Really the only reason for these iirc was as an option for a large ship without actually giving them a mainstream warship.
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True we don't want the forgeship to be the star of the show.
I'm quite sure the proposed one wont be especially with 2 shields. And neither of the two weapon load outs are mind blowing either so that should be okay as well.
An ability to get say 5 upgrades from the tables, make it harder to judge performance, but then again the cruisers would have roughly the same ability (perhaps with one pick less) and I feel that removal of the ability to upgrade it would make people steer away from it totally.
That being said maybe allowing it to take pick one exotic upgrade is to good and makes it to much of a "star" maybe its better to give it back its 3rd shield instead and limit it to only 3 upgrades. The intention would be to make it a bit boring , but people might still pick it to get some long range gun support.
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Veteran Captains should be 30pts though, correct?
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Because of other lists?
For the RT list I say 25 max, but 15 is fine given them being rogue traders.
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Ok, so that's a boost to the RT list, what's the downside to counterbalance it?
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Low on launch bays.
Transports with lower leadership.
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Gotcha. Good point.
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Here's how I think Rogue Traders should look:
-Based on the FFG Rogue Trader RPG, I think Rogue Traders should have relatively stripped down vessels to begin with and then have small upgrades. Starting out in RT, you generally have a pretty stock ship and then the upgrades are not excessive.
-I don't think the upgrades should take the ships to the range of AdMech ships. The ships should not be like a full IN cruiser stock and be able to upgrade past it like AdMech cruisers do.
-The upgrade amount from WR17 seems a little out of hand. I think we should reign in it much like the Tyranid list did. It seems to be out of control in the WR17 list to have a bunch of upgrades you can take for specific vessels and also have a huge global upgrade list that vessels can take from also.
-I think the exotic upgrades should be significantly limited.
-I would be in favor of the new AdMech style picking method and making that work out for the RT list. The random upgrades would represent the armament that came with ships when the RT acquired them. The picked results would represent the upgrades the RT picked himself. This would give some randomness and some choice, much like what I think would be realistic for a RT fleet.
SO, simpler upgrades like Admech, the vessel the RT rides on gets an exotic upgrade (like Admech sort of, the RT will have the upgrade cost built in), roll a 6 for Ld, you can pick an upgrade to add to the pool (like Admech), and veteran captains can purchase an exotic upgrade for their ship. This has some randomness, limited exotic upgrades, and a more limited upgrade amount as opposed to the WR17 style.
Question: would the Galleon and Merchantman have the -1ld and be considered Transports?
I know this is a pretty big request, but something is not right with the new list, IMO. Maybe it feels a little too much like the Admech debate of randomness vs ability to choose which upgrades go where and still retaining some randomness.
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Hey Dan,
First point: that is difficult to translate into a BFG list, because the basic ship a Rogue Trader would start with is a Sword class escorts...
The BFG list is more a translation of a full fledged Trader, or a Trader leading an exploration fleet.
The three lists in Warp Rift 17 captured that greatly, however Andrew and I decided to make it somewhat easier to approach with one list.
Point two, I disagree, in Rogue Trader they can add/capture standard IN/Chaos cruisers with their normal values. So downgrading them is off.
Point three I like the WR17 upgrade list, and thus like the even better list Andrew and I made this time around (Cyko made a good idea, which needs to be translated into the list.
Point four : they are limited.
Point five: No, not randoming weapons you initially pay for, that takes away a tactical element to list building and will put a captain from the start on in a poorer position.
Galleon & Merchantmen are not ticked as transports, unless people think they should be.
Yes it is a big request and I disagree with a lot of your ideas (sorry), your conception is more of a starting trader, and that just does not flow well into a BFG list (or pick WR17 completely ;) ).
With the Cyko addition the randomness & ability to choose is quite good for the RT list I think.
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Hmm, consider me convinced by most of what you said. What about exotic upgrades? Shouldn't those be extremely limited?
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Dunno, as it was intended ships could get a maximum of 2 exotic upgrades. Is that a lot? Dunno. It is what makes the ship unique.
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Ok, if I really narrowed down my opinion it would be this:
-make the exotic upgrades much more rare. Maybe each RT gets one roll on the exotic chart. Let's be honest, RTs would most likely put the exotic technology on their own ship.
-The randomness just seems too weird. The RT can move parts around. I think rolling for upgrades, those upgrades make a pool, and then placing them like Admech would keep randomness yet allow for some choice by the RT.
-reduce the amount of upgrades each ship can have. Maybe 1 per escort, 2 per capital ships. Exotic upgrades, being limited, go where the RT or Veteran Captain goes. Mayve the RTs and VCs can pay points for a roll on the exotic list. Instead of it being an upgrade on a ship, it becomes an upgrade for the RT or VC.
What about this?
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I wouldn't think the exotic upgrades would be all that uncommon for some traders, especially if they have a fleet of ships like you see in BFG they're probably going to have been to the kinds of places where these upgrades can be more easily found. I guess it would depend on the background of the fleet.
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In the RT RPG, xenotech components are given a "near unique" acquisition difficulty, meaning its really, really, hard to acquire.
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I am no fan of pools. Not such a fan of that system to be honest.
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Ok, but what about exotic upgrades? At this point, you can have a whole bunch in the fleet.
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Yeah, cool isn't it?
8)
ehm, poll about it?
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I mean, I'm not against it rules-wise necessarily, but I don't think it is fluffy. Why not just let each RT or VC buy one or two they can use in their fleet? 15pts to roll for it, +5 to pick. It just doesn't seem fluffy to have a whole RT fleet where each ship has xenotech gear (yes, I know not EVERY exotic upgrade in the list is xenotech, but the majority is).
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I have no problem with a RT fleet with loads of exotic upgrade rolls. The way a 2d6 table works most of the rolls will end up towards the middle of the table were the more mundane rhings will be. From a fluff perspective a rogue trader from such a fleet would be wary of the inquisition and admech but there certainly are plenty of examples of that type of rogue trader lords in fluff. Some of them even go on to establish small domions outside of imoerial space to get some breathing room.
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But the option to pay 5 points to choose which one you want makes the roll irrelevant. Its not as much the exotic stuff that is in fluffy, its the ability to xenotech your whole fleet that's getting to me.
P.S. on the exotic roll that gives you xenos bombers, why not just half each of them instead of making the ship pay points? The trouble will be, you will have made your list already when you roll that and you will have no more points to spend.
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I have never been in favour of the pay to choose. I think the exotic should be a roll an the standard one should be straight buy. That allows you to utilize the standard distribution of a 2d6 roll to separate the results from a exoticness and ingame effect perspective. An the straight buy approach to the imperial list allows for differing point costs when applicable.
I totally agree thst you should not pay extra after a roll has been made on the exotic table. Either affect the number of launch bays or simply place the result att 2 or 12 so that it is something people ate hoping to get when buying a roll on the table.
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I'm on board with that. So, Imperial upgrades bought, exotic upgrades rolled for on 2D6 and the xenotech (rare) upgrades at the margins. I can dig that.
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Hey,
If I get the chance I will edit the opening post.
Cyko, could you post the exotic list in order as you seem most fitting?
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Updated post one, red points need some attention.
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Nice!
Thoughts:
-Xenos vessel exactly like 2010 (with the 2010 xenotech upgrades chart there for you to choose your upgrade from)
-Cargo vessel just like in 2010. The way it gives the bonus of +1 RO when it doesn't have the bonus for scenarios is important.
-I just think recommissioned escorts should just be exactly Sword, Cobra, Firestorm. Just call is "Recommissioned Cobra," etc. I don't believe there needs to be an alternate profile for recommissioned vessels.
-Transports just like 2010 Exploration fleet.
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Here's my crack at it:
Short list Imperial: 15pts per upgrade
1)Improved Sensors: +1 Leadership
2)Targeting Matrix: Weapons receive a left shift
3)Secondary Reactors: +2d6 AAF / +1d6 AAF and +5cm speed?
4)Plasma Boosted Batteries: All 30cm Batteries are exchanged for 45cm Batteries
5)Heavy Hull Plating: +1 Hit point
6)Armored Prow: Prow adds 6+ armor
7)Penance Shields: (As in WR17 >add) this allows it to not be a random roll that makes exotic upgrades risky. For example, if you roll penance shields and they don't apply that game because there is nothing they shield against.
<<<<add more?>>>
For +20pts you may take an exotic upgrade, due their rarer availability, the result is more chance of what the Rogue Trader found then what he would like:
Exotic List
Re-roll results that are not possible on the ship.
2)Alien Hull: (As in WR17 >add) *not intended for escorts
3)Eldar Holofield Tech: (As in WR17 >add)
4)Displacement Drive: (As in WR 17 >add) I dont get how these work...
5)Tau Tracking systems: (As in WR17 >add)
6) Macro Cannons (as in WR17)
7)Leaf on the Wind: Love it, I would tweak it to: "You may always attempt AAF, BR, or CTNH special orders, even if other ships have failed their command checks already. You may also re-roll the dice for any attempt to navigate celestial phenomena.
8)Expert Troops: +1 to boarding and hit & runs, -1 to hit & runs against this ship.
9)Extra Lance: +1 Dorsal 30cm Lance L/F/R *not intended for escorts (I recommend we make this 60cm. This is the "exotic" list we are talking about. A 60cm lance would be like getting a piece of admech technology on your ship. Meant for cruisers and up only.)
10 )Nekulli Energy Shields: +1 Shield, Nekulli shield technology is highly efficient and any ship refitted with them will not change their base size, even if this refit brings them from 2 to 3 shields. *not intended for escorts
11)Exotic Torpedoes: Add additional torpedo options to your ship. Roll D6:
1)Boarding Torpedoes
2)Kel-Dach Torpedoes (Melta Torpedoes)
3)Demiurg Torpedo Silo (Speed 30cm, arc Any)
4)Tau Torpedoes (Per Tau)
5)DE Leach Torpedoes (Per DE) (half firepower and round up)
6)Eldar Torpedoes (Per Eldar) (half firepower and round up)
12)Exotic Attack Craft: Roll D6: *not intended for escorts. Half any launch capacity and round up.
1-2) Thunderhawk Gunships (Replace all ordinance with Thunderhawk gunships following all rules for those craft)
3-4) Darkstar Bombers (Replace your bombers with Darkstar bombers following all rules for those craft.) *you must have already purchased bombers!
5-6) Manta Bombers (Replace you bombers with Manta bombers following all rules for those craft.) *you must have already purchased bombers!
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Nice!
Thoughts:
-Xenos vessel exactly like 2010 (with the 2010 xenotech upgrades chart there for you to choose your upgrade from)
-Cargo vessel just like in 2010. The way it gives the bonus of +1 RO when it doesn't have the bonus for scenarios is important.
-I just think recommissioned escorts should just be exactly Sword, Cobra, Firestorm. Just call is "Recommissioned Cobra," etc. I don't believe there needs to be an alternate profile for recommissioned vessels.
-Transports just like 2010 Exploration fleet.
Good with me.
As for the list, seems fine.
Add rule explanations next. (I will try to explain displacement drives better).
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One of the things I do not like about the WR17 list is the limitations on the RT specific vessels. It just doesn't seem necessary or realistic. If people want 2 trade galleons, why the heck not? Personally, I think taking those ships and upgrading them with stuff would be part of the fun of the RT list in my opinion.
Also, would the upgrades to the Galleon, Merchantman, and Lorcha still be options as upgrades for them? Maybe each could have a list that is called "Additional Imperial Upgrades" or something like that?
Other things:
-Havoc lore has them as more common among Rogue Traders. I think we should include those.
-Armed Cargo Vessels should be 25pts and have 2 WBs. This makes them more useful as ARMED cargo vessels. Imperial Transports even have 2 wbs... Making them 2 WBs but at 30cm makes them the same firepower but at the longer range, making them ARMED cargo vessels.
-Man, Q-ships really need a points rework...
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Hi,
On Trade Galleons, well in WR17 they were a more staple choice and more common then the list proposed on here.
The ships can be quite strong when well upgraded, and in essence these are stripped down Lunars retrofitted as a captain may wish.
The Lorcha has been removed in the proposed list.
Creating another separate (upgrade) list for Trade Galleon, Merchantmen will perhaps be to cluttering and not enough streamlined for a final list.
Havoc, can be added, won't harm the list.
Armed Cargo vessels: yeah, that is a good idea, in fact, I always wanted to do that, lol.
Q-ships, ya.
on Recomm.Escorts:
humm, the Sword is also so common I wouldn't call it recommissioned, but we can do that and add the basic Sabre from the RT book as the standard escort variant?
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I assumed recommissioned vessels were basically retired vessels that were brought back into commission by the RT so the basic IN escorts came to mind immediately.
I haven't been able to find the Sabre in the RT books I have. Not sure if you are referring to the RPG or not. Escorts that I always wish had BFG stats are the Meritech and the Turbulent escorts.
So, in the current RT list by you and Andrew, the Galleon is not restricted?
WOW, just noticed that each cruiser is restricted to 1 per 2 light cruisers. I must say, I think this highly neuters the list. Why not just keep the restrictions how the 2010 list had it in the exploration list or something similar? I could see it being something like "You may include one cruiser per escort squadron or light cruiser," maybe.
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In the proposed list it is restricted.
Hmm, I think you nailed a thinking loophole. With the restriction the intend was to get fewer cruisers and more escorts but now that I re-read it will mean more CL will be used.
Hmm, so 1 cruiser per 2 light cruisers or per escort squadron (min3)?
What does Andrew think about all of this then? ::)
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Even with that, I think the tendency will be for people to want to use cruisers, so this will encourage escorts and discourage light cruisers. If we have it as one cruiser per escort squadron or SINGLE light cruiser, people will be more likely to consider it for getting those cruisers.
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I agree with afterimagedan here, I think it is the best way to get a balance between light cruisers and escorts. And it will still be a list that won't lean to much on its main line cruisers.
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I like the ephasis on more escorts, I never pursued it since most people tend to take a minimal amount of them.
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8)
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"You may include one cruiser per escort squadron or light cruiser" means that people have to build from the ground up and have some choice about what the smaller ships in their fleet will be. Personally, I want cruisers and galleons so I will have to make sure I have enough light cruisers and escorts to get them. So, 2 Galleons, a Lunar, 2 Endeavors, and a squadron of escorts would make a pretty sweet fleet.
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But it may still make people go for cruisers only fleets. Only CL + Galleons etc.
Lets think:
perhaps
1 cruiser per 1 Light Cruiser or 1 escort squadron
2 cruiser per 1 Light Cruiser and 1 escort squadron
3 cruiser per 2 Light Cruisers and/or 2 escort squadrons
4 cruiser per 2 Light Cruiser and 2 escort squadron
So, you get the gist. It will make a balanced list, yet pretty iffy for a ruling.
edit, or keep your ruling Dan and a bit is added that at least 25/33% of the fleet must be of the escort type (including all escorts etc).
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What about this. In the cruiser section: "you may not have more cruisers than escort squadrons." In the light cruiser section: "you may not have more light cruisers than escort squadrons." That way, escorts are the foundation of the fleet.
What about grand cruisers? They are available in the RT RPG books.Grand cruisers are "surprisingly common among the wealthier Rogue Trader fleets," says Battlefleet Koronus, the book. Also, battlecruisers are more rare for RTs to get, but some do. The 2010 RT exploration list gave a way to get a battleship in the list, but it was near impossible to do. To do this, you needed yo max out your cruiser capacity with exactly 9 RT cruisers, 3 cruisers of allies, THEN you could take 1 attending battleship to go along with it. Doesn't seem right to have it so rigid.
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I have no objection to include the vengeance and avenger.
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Though i understand the desire to make escorts a standard part of the fleet, I don't want the cruiser limitation to feel to elaborate. I think 2 cruiser per 1 Light Cruiser and 1 escort squadron is simple enough but its also terribly limiting when it comes to the overall structure...
Is it really such a deal-breaker if a fleet consists primarily of light cruisers backed up by galleons? Maybe the 2 light cruiser per regular cruiser isn't such a bad thing after all... It favors escorts but still makes using light cruisers as the building block possible. (And Merchantmen are dirt cheap so it won't break the bank)
PS: I'm totally okay with them using old Grand cruisers. But i think they should be reasonably hard to get, say requiring 4 propper (non light) Cruisers to be included or simply limit them to one for every full 1000 points.
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Cyk0, I still think your idea is more elaborate than:
In the cruiser section: "you may not have more cruisers than escort squadrons." In the light cruiser section: "you may not have more light cruisers than escort squadrons."
This means 3 escort squadrons allows for 3 cruisers and 3 light cruisers. So, some limitation there, but hardly crippling.
For grand cruisers, we could limit them like battleships are limited in the IN: 1 per 3 cruisers. But, that may take away from some of the feel of the not so regimented and structured RT fleet. For example, I don't think it would be too uncommon to see a rogue trader fleet with a grand cruiser being followed by escorts. So, I think the grand cruiser per full 1000pts would be a better match.
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Grand Cruisers: 1 per full 1000pts or 1 per 1000pts? In the latter you might end up with a neat fleet like this:
Grand Cruiser
+ Escort Squadron
in 500pts.
Is kinda Rogue Trader-ish.
As for upgrades I say Grand Cruisers fall in the cruiser category.
This:
In the cruiser section: "you may not have more cruisers than escort squadrons." In the light cruiser section: "you may not have more light cruisers than escort squadrons."
is good.
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Maybe just put in there that each cruiser/ grand cruiser must be accompanied by a squadron of 2-6 escorts or transport vessels?
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That wouldn't be too bad Andrew, but it would discourage light cruisers.
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Why? It seems that would encourage light cruisers since they wouldn't have to be saddled with more escorts.
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Ah, ok so your rule wasn't including light cruisers. Sorry I missed that! Yeah, I would be on board with that entirely!
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Added that last bit of restrictions to Grand Cruisers & Cruisers.
Added Vengeance + Avenger
Upgrade List not changed yet.
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Also, how do upgrades work on rogue traders? Is it pay 20 pts and then roll for exotic, get the extra lance roll then all escorts get an additional lance? I think we will need to work out specifics. Maybe there are a few upgrades that just need a rule explaining how it works.
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iirc Andrew somewhere written down that exact ruling.
Andrew?
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Let me dig around through my notes here. Ok I think I see the problem here, escorts cannot get the extra lance.
Short list Imperial: 15pts per upgrade
1)Improved Sensors: +1 Leadership
2)Targeting Matrix: Weapons receive a left shift
3)Secondary Reactors: +2d6 AAF / +1d6 AAF and +5cm speed?
4)Plasma Boosted Batteries: All 30cm Batteries are exchanged for 45cm Batteries
5)Heavy Hull Plating: +1 Hit point
6)Armored Prow: Prow adds 6+ armor
<<<<add more?>>>
For +20pts you may take an exotic upgrade, due their rarer availability, the result is more chance of what the Rogue Trader found then what he would like:
Exotic List
Re-roll results that are not possible on the ship
2)Tau Tracking systems: (As in WR17 >add)
3)Eldar Holofield Tech: (As in WR17 >add)
4)Displacement Drive: (As in WR 17 >add)
5)Alien Hull: (As in WR17 >add) *not intended for escorts
6)Penance Shields: (As in WR17 >add)
7)Leaf on the Wind: Love it, I would tweak it to: "You may always attempt AAF, BR, or CTNH special orders, even if other ships have failed their command checks already. You may also re-roll the dice for any attempt to navigate celestial phenomena.
8)Nekulli Energy Shields: +1 Shield, Nekulli shield technology is highly efficient and any ship refitted with them will not change their base size, even if this refit brings them from 2 to 3 shields. *not intended for escorts
9)Extra Lance: +1 Dorsal 30cm Lance L/F/R *not intended for escorts
10)Expert Troops: +1 to boarding and hit & runs, -1 to hit & runs against this ship.
11)Exotic Torpedoes: Add additional torpedo options to your ship. Roll D6:
1)Boarding Torpedoes
2)Kel-Dach Torpedoes (Melta Torpedoes)
3)Demiurg Torpedoes (Speed 30cm, arc Any) (Limited number?)
4)Tau Torpedoes (Per Tau)
5)DE Leach Torpedoes (Per DE)
6)Eldar Torpedoes (Per Eldar) (Limited number?)
12)Exotic Attack Craft: Roll D6: *not intended for escorts +40 for special bombers too much/ too little? (+25 for bombers, +15 for this) I think the TH halving launch strength makes up for the price difference nicely without any additional cost)
1-2) Thunderhawk Gunships (Replace all ordinance with Thunderhawk gunships following all rules for those craft. The ships launch capacity is halved, rounding up.)
3-4) Darkstar Bombers (Replace your bombers with Darkstar bombers following all rules for those craft.) *you must have already purchased bombers!
5-6) Manta Bombers (Replace you bombers with Manta bombers following all rules for those craft.) *you must have already purchased bombers!
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Yep, that were those little things. :)
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Updated post #1.
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Edited exotic upgrades with the missing rules.